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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Christian Funerals
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
There is ongoing controversy here in Australia over what is appropriate for Christian funerals.
Even in the more hierarchical and liturgical denominations, such as the Roman Catholics and Anglicans, conservative leaders have stepped in to caution against what they see as the bypassing, trivialization, dilution or secularization of funerals’ essential religious elements.
There has been discussion about whether music, objects, flags, pictures, speeches etc which relate to aspects the deceased which were not directly connected to their faith (such as hobbies, sports, interests, activities and career) are allowable in the service itself.
In other words, is a funeral a religious ceremony, or a celebration of the dead person’s life?
And if a combination of both, how should that work out?
There seems to be little or nothing about funerals in the Bible, so it is even arguable that we shouldn’t hold them at all!
Certainly there is an argument that Christians should not get sucked into the notorious consumerism which dominates the funeral industry, and have a duty to opt for the cheapest and simplest legal disposal of the body.
Then there is the issue of whether mourning and grief are appropriate at Christian funerals.
I myself don’t have the slightest doubt that they are appropriate and also therapeutically necessary, but I have come across extremists (I perceive them as tending to come from amongst penties/charos, but that could be an unfair generalization) for whom tears at a Christian funeral are a sin of sinful weakness and lack of faith.
Having attended many funerals, and been responsible for conducting some myself, I observe that the pattern these days in my evangelical milieu seems to be to have a small, private interment or cremation attended only by family, and then a large coffinless (is this a good thing?) commemoration service, with endless Powerpoint pictures of the deceased’s life, and endless speeches by relations and friends.
Then there is the issue of Christians being called upon to conduct funerals for those with Christian connections, but whose own religious allegiance was very uncertain.
For example, some years ago our church held a service for the son of church members who had shot a policeman with his own pistol, and then used it to commit suicide.
Is it time to think about returning Christian funerals to their stark and simple theological essentials (assuming that such a situation ever existed!)?
Any thoughts?
[ 16. December 2012, 00:13: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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ProgenitorDope
Apprentice
# 16648
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Posted
Offering an uneducated layman's opinion, I've always felt funerals are more for the family rather than the deceased (who isn't even there, technically). As such, I think my answer is the funeral should be whatever helps the bereaved be relieved. Within reason, of course.
Posts: 50 | Registered: Sep 2011
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
My belief is that the funeral itself is for the deceased, whereas the wake is primarily for those who loved him/her. Things like hobbies etc, in my mind, belong at the wake, which is a celebration of the persons life.
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
I don't want a PowerPoint presentation at my requiem mass, thank you.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
To paraphrase Neil Innes, how sweet to be an Orthodox. An Orthodox funeral is what it is. Nobody picks the music. Nobody stands up and says anything. It is a set service of the Church, and is not subject to whims or fancies or relatives with poor judgement.
Then afterwards you can go have a party and say whatever you want, play whatever you want, Powerpoint whatever you want.
But the funeral is a worship service of the Church, and is not a party or a concert or a Toastmasters meeting.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
To paraphrase Neil Innes, how sweet to be an Orthodox. An Orthodox funeral is what it is. Nobody picks the music. Nobody stands up and says anything. It is a set service of the Church, and is not subject to whims or fancies or relatives with poor judgement.
Then afterwards you can go have a party and say whatever you want, play whatever you want, Powerpoint whatever you want.
But the funeral is a worship service of the Church, and is not a party or a concert or a Toastmasters meeting.
How sweet indeed. So often, a eulogy by a family member - while each part may be very important to them - carries on and on. To make matters worse, the delivery is a very real burden to the eulogist. Recently, we were at a funeral where the eulogy was given by a daughter of the deceased. After the first 5 minutes or so, she was so grief-stricken that she could not really carry on, but she did so - she had written her speech for her mother and felt she had to deliver it in full.
What's needed is a short homily by the priest in the context of a proper service. Some good hymns and ending with a dignified committal. Then a wake, the hall hung, if the family wishes. with large photos of the deceased, and lots of private talk of both grief and of happy memories.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Margaret
Shipmate
# 283
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Posted
What Mousethief said about Orthodox funerals - I went to one for the first time a few weeks ago, for my husband's Greek Cypriot aunt, and it was very reverent, very moving (in an entirely unsentimental way) and not remotely impersonal, as I'd feared it might be.
It was such a contrast to the last Anglican funeral I attended; there's nothing wrong with the Common Worship funeral service done with dignity, but the vicar was determined to wring the last drop of emotion from it, and it was quite excruciatingly cheesy. We were exhorted to think what we we'd like to say to M now if we could, and say it in our hearts while the organist played some glutinous Victorian item; we got a long description of her hobbies and interests; we were told how awful it was for her grieving family to have lost her (actually I believe she and her sister hadn't been on good terms for a long time) and the whole thing was just toe-curling. It made me feel like leaving explicit directions in my will for the plainest possible funeral.
Posts: 2456 | From: West Midlands UK | Registered: May 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
My belief is that the funeral itself is for the deceased, whereas the wake is primarily for those who loved him/her. Things like hobbies etc, in my mind, belong at the wake, which is a celebration of the persons life.
Indeed, that is what I came to post. Save the power point for after when everybody's at the post-funeral reception, hugging and kissing people they'll not see again before the next funeral, and getting smashed out of their minds.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Margaret:
It made me feel like leaving explicit directions in my will for the plainest possible funeral.
It seems that too many people fail to leave instructions about their funeral. I think that preparation is more important now than ever, considering that the traditional elements of the average Protestant funeral no longer reflect the majority of people being buried.
I don't have a problem with eulogies, or with family members crying; these are normal in the funerals I attend.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
To paraphrase Neil Innes, how sweet to be an Orthodox. An Orthodox funeral is what it is. Nobody picks the music. Nobody stands up and says anything. It is a set service of the Church, and is not subject to whims or fancies or relatives with poor judgement.
Then afterwards you can go have a party and say whatever you want, play whatever you want, Powerpoint whatever you want.
But the funeral is a worship service of the Church, and is not a party or a concert or a Toastmasters meeting.
I've recently discovered I can have a Eucharist at my funeral! I totally told my husband that's the way it has to be.
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
I like the idea that the church service is impersonal in a way, but here in Oz we don't have "wakes" or "parties" afterwards. We just have a service at the church then a short thing at the graveside. So I guess that means the church service has to be kind of personal. Otherwise there would be no human touch.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I like what Mousethief has to say, and must admit though that I feel quite alone in saying that where I live. Here there used to be a vigil and wake for a few days before the funeral (mostly centred around saying the rosary), but it was also a time to recollect, pass around the photo's, meet with people you hadn't seen for a while etc. Nowadays however, there is a conflation of the wake and the funeral so that it all seems to take place in the church at the service, with the powerpoint, the favourite tunes on the cd player, the poems printed on the service sheet. I could go on and on with stuff added that drowns out the actual funeral service. It's very odd - like a secular service in a church with a tiny smattering of God stuff. In some contexts I can understand that the funeral is for the people gathered who are alive, but actually in the Christian tradition, it is for the deceased person, and I'm beginning to resent clergy who trot out that line about it only being for those who are left as if it's Gospel - as if it's Christian.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
A funeral ISN'T purely an act of worship. It's a funeral - ie, the whole reason for having it is that someone has died and the whole reason for people being there is that they cared about the person who has died. Therefore, to ignore the person who is the cause of the funeral and the reason people have given up their time to attend the funeral seems bizarre. And - in reality (in the UK at least)- failing to acknowledge the person in the coffin is a pastoral disaster. Believe me - no amount of theologising will help you get over the criticism "he/she never made a single reference to dear old Bob/Joan/Cholmondeley".
I always try and steer clear from giving a eulogy myself. It is always false. I almost certainly never knew the person and so cannot really sum up their lives succinctly and accurately. Having said that, leaving the eulogy to the family invites a long-winded and overwrought exercise in emotionalism. But on balance, I think that this is the risk that has to be taken. The best funerals I have been to (as officiant and as member of the congregation) were ones where someone talked briefly about the person and where their unique personality was acknowledged and celebrated.
There are some caveats. First of all, the family needs to have to made clear that they only have a limited time period (5 minutes max). It's helpful if you can point to the crematorium's guidelines on keeping to the set slot! Secondly, the eulogy never replaces the address or Bible reading. These help to retain the Christian context of the funeral.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Margaret:
It made me feel like leaving explicit directions in my will for the plainest possible funeral.
It seems that too many people fail to leave instructions about their funeral.
Considering how many have put off writing up Last Will and Testaments all together, that's not surprising.
A lot of people in my office were shocked when I took a half day off recently to go sign my Will and some other documents (healthcare directive, et cetera). They were *really* shocked to find out I've had one since I was 22.
The general argument amongst these mostly non-churchgoers was that at 33 I'm too young to need a Will.
The churchgoer, who is a much lower down the candle baptist-style megachurch-goer, was exceedingly shocked I was doing something "so morbid" as thinking about my death. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
To paraphrase Neil Innes, how sweet to be an Orthodox. An Orthodox funeral is what it is. Nobody picks the music. Nobody stands up and says anything. It is a set service of the Church, and is not subject to whims or fancies or relatives with poor judgement.
Then afterwards you can go have a party and say whatever you want, play whatever you want, Powerpoint whatever you want.
But the funeral is a worship service of the Church, and is not a party or a concert or a Toastmasters meeting.
How sweet indeed. So often, a eulogy by a family member - while each part may be very important to them - carries on and on. To make matters worse, the delivery is a very real burden to the eulogist. Recently, we were at a funeral where the eulogy was given by a daughter of the deceased. After the first 5 minutes or so, she was so grief-stricken that she could not really carry on, but she did so - she had written her speech for her mother and felt she had to deliver it in full.
What's needed is a short homily by the priest in the context of a proper service. Some good hymns and ending with a dignified committal. Then a wake, the hall hung, if the family wishes. with large photos of the deceased, and lots of private talk of both grief and of happy memories.
Yes, all of this. Also for my grandad's funeral, some of my grandma's friends from church (RC) who are in the choir offered to attend and boost the singing a bit as a sort of moral support - very tactfully sitting at the back too.
At my other grandma's crematorium funeral, I was surprised that it was all secular music but with a CoE doing the (very good, and nice and short) homily but I suppose funerals aren't like weddings where you can't mix civil and religious ceremonies.
I also agree that it's very sensible to plan your funeral as fully as possible - not just for your own wishes but to spare any family arguments about what you would have wanted, which can happen if nobody knows beforehand.
I want pretty much what Gee D describes - and black vestments please! Funerals are not times of penitence so no purple for me. No Eucharist either but only because most of my friends and relatives would be unable to receive it anyway, being either RC or non-Christian.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I regard a funeral as being for the commending to God of the soul of the deceased and to pray for a speedy journey through purgatory.
If the deceased was a Christian, i regard a requiem eucharist as essential.
If i am conducting a funeral, i do not allow eulogies but will weave in reminiscences from relatives into my sermon.
That said, I am quite liberal regarding secular, so long as it doesn't overrun (if it is a crematorium funeral). I don't like seeing a queue of hearses and mourners banked up out front.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I like the idea that the church service is impersonal in a way, but here in Oz we don't have "wakes" or "parties" afterwards. We just have a service at the church then a short thing at the graveside. So I guess that means the church service has to be kind of personal. Otherwise there would be no human touch.
If your worship is impersonal and has no human touch, you're doing it wrong.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
What's needed is a short homily by the priest in the context of a proper service. Some good hymns and ending with a dignified committal.
Well, OK, but if the homily is going to ever mention the deceased, get it right! At my father's funeral, the preacher was new to the church, had never met my father, and spoke about the deceased's virtues -- getting it so wrong one friend asked me if we were at the wrong funeral. My father had virtues, but not the ones the preacher claimed for him. I feel like my father never had a funeral.
We were ever so glad the "head preacher" was sick when Mom died and the deacon we all knew since childhood took over.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
My sister, who died in 1956, went to her grave with the full solemn ritual of Holy Mother Church. Three priests, the blackest of black vestments. An all male choir sang the Gregorian Requiem Mass.
Requiem æternam dona eis, Domine,
et lux perpetua luceat eis.
Dies iræ! dies illa
Solvet sæclum in favilla:
Teste David cum Sibylla!
And much more… The main ingredient being fear.
Then an intercession:
May Angels lead you into paradise;
may the Martyrs receive you at your coming
and lead you to the holy city of Jerusalem.
The post Vatican 2 approach is to celebrate the life of the deceased and to comfort the living.
Which do you prefer?
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
My sister, who died in 1956, went to her grave with the full solemn ritual of Holy Mother Church. Three priests, the blackest of black vestments. An all male choir sang the Gregorian Requiem Mass.
Requiem æternam dona eis, Domine,
et lux perpetua luceat eis.
Dies iræ! dies illa
Solvet sæclum in favilla:
Teste David cum Sibylla!
And much more… The main ingredient being fear.
Then an intercession:
May Angels lead you into paradise;
may the Martyrs receive you at your coming
and lead you to the holy city of Jerusalem.
The post Vatican 2 approach is to celebrate the life of the deceased and to comfort the living.
Which do you prefer?
The first, without a doubt. If I attended that funeral it would comfort me with the hope contained in that intercession, and if it was my funeral (despite not being quite what I had in mind and unlikely as I am not Catholic) I would consider the fact that I had that hope to be the main thing worth celebrating. Far more comfort and meaning to me than woolly modern 'celebrations of life'.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
Which do you prefer?
The simple answer is for the Church to allow both options, and allow a choice.
I would point out that, even with a modern Mass, solemnity can indeed be achieved. Those texts which have been eliminated from the funeral rite can be utilized as hymns, as 'cover' music for the offertory or communion, and before and after the liturgy.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Regarding the service, I prefer the good old Anglican model of the standard liturgy which applies to all comers, including the non-negotiable elements, and a little space for personal tailoring. I imagine members of the Orthodox Church have very little expectation of doing anything at a funeral outside of what they would already be familiar with. A very different set of circumstances from dealing with often non-church people, and of course those churches which have long had a tradition of tribute and some form of personally marking the ceremony.
I respect the theological position of the Orthodox Church which obviously determines their praxis. And I feel ours has its strengths, too. I personally don't consider there is a supremely superior model of praxis with funerals, simply because as there are numerous ways of 'being' church so there are many ways of ritualizing the death ceremonies of human beings.
I do get anxious sometimes about personal touches; but so long as it's not outrightly unChristian I don't see the point in making the experience even more difficult and miserable for the grieving family by arguing with them. I do offer advice and sometimes it has to be made clear that certain things won't be suitable at certain times. But I've usually found my anxieties to be unfounded.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
It's about balance for me. I do think that a funeral is partly for me as a way of wishing me a speedy reunion with my Maker, but also for those I leave behind. For Christians such as myself with a number of (or even mostly) non-Christian friends and family, it is sometimes difficult to know to what extent it should be a reflection of your own religious beliefs or comfort for those left behind. Taking the Eucharist as an example, I think having something that will exclude most of the mourners would come across as very insensitive.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Well, OK, but if the homily is going to ever mention the deceased, get it right! At my father's funeral, the preacher was new to the church, had never met my father, and spoke about the deceased's virtues -- getting it so wrong one friend asked me if we were at the wrong funeral. My father had virtues, but not the ones the preacher claimed for him. I feel like my father never had a funeral.
That's very difficult and hurtful. I presume that the minister had a funeral visit with your family to get the information for his talk and to organize the service? So it's disappointing that he chose to invent his own material, or was too lazy, careless or mistakenly well-intentioned to be accurate.
My personal practice is to repeat only what I'm given by next of kin (and what I know myself, if anything). That way if parts of the tribute are wrong, at least I've communicated accurately what the family have claimed to be true!
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Originally posted by Evensong:
I like the idea that the church service is impersonal in a way, but here in Oz we don't have "wakes" or "parties" afterwards. We just have a service at the church then a short thing at the graveside. So I guess that means the church service has to be kind of personal. Otherwise there would be no human touch. [/QUOTE]
That may be so in WA, but most certainly not here. The cemeteries and crematoria do a good trade in after service gatherings; at our church, as much as possible funerals are planned to fit around regular hall bookings, so that those attending can gather for a talk, a cup of tea or a drink and something to eat. Many go back to the house of one of the children for refreshments.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
My personal practice is to repeat only what I'm given by next of kin (and what I know myself, if anything). That way if parts of the tribute are wrong, at least I've communicated accurately what the family have claimed to be true!
Oh yes - although this doesn't always help when the next of kin don't mention something a bit vital - I've had one son not mention his father's wife of 25 years and another who wrote a sibling out of the story, although in both cases I was able to work out the omissions before the service and find a way to work out with the family what we'd say.
I am pretty flexible in dealing with family requests. Many of the people that I talk to have been to very few funerals (sometimes none) and their expectations are often based on what they've seen on TV and films - especially the soap operas. So they put themselves under the enormous pressure of delivering a eulogy to their parent or spouse because that's what happens on Eastenders. It's often so much easier for them to write something as a family for me to read. They can choose favourite pieces of secular music instead of hymns - but singing a familiar hymn can give a vital chance to settle, to get used to what's happening (but not All Things BandB please.)
Traditional funeral service patterns - such as Common Worship - work well, they just do, and I think that I am doing families a service when I shape their requests within that framework. Which means firmly setting the story of the life within the context of the Gospel hope. They've got a Christian minister and they get a Christian message - I've been asked not to 'have too much God stuff' and had to say, sorry, if you get me, that's part of the package.
A couple of personal non-negotiables:
Secular readings and 'spiritual' poetry come first and the bible reading(s) lead(s) into the address. Because that's what I'm going to be talking about.
We don't have "Do not stand at my grave and weep"*
anne
*because whenever i hear the final stanza
"do not stand at my grave and cry,
I am not dead, I did not die",
I want to reply
"So, you're not dead, that's really great,
but who's the poor sod in the crate?"
Because we're at a funeral - someone definitely died. And part of the reason we're there is to acknowledge that.
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
At my church all funerals are BCP, and all the hymns are from the 1982 Hymnal.
After the funeral, if the family wants it, there is a reception in the parish hall where there may be displays of photographs or a slide show. At one funeral reception, we all sang the Virginia Tech fight song. This was at the wish of the woman who had died.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Also for my grandad's funeral, some of my grandma's friends from church (RC) who are in the choir offered to attend and boost the singing a bit as a sort of moral support - very tactfully sitting at the back too.
At my church, 95% of funerals are put into the weekly bulletin so that regular attendees to weekday masses and anyone available can turn up. I think it helps non-churchgoing family and friends, especially during the responses. Also no funeral will ever be held with no one to attend.
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Also for my grandad's funeral, some of my grandma's friends from church (RC) who are in the choir offered to attend and boost the singing a bit as a sort of moral support - very tactfully sitting at the back too.
At my church, 95% of funerals are put into the weekly bulletin so that regular attendees to weekday masses and anyone available can turn up. I think it helps non-churchgoing family and friends, especially during the responses. Also no funeral will ever be held with no one to attend.
The retired uncle of one of my Toronto friends is a member of a sodality at a parish in the Latin Archdiocese; their role is to attend funerals of those without families or friends (a surprising number in Toronto) and, when possible, to be present and saying prayers and reading Scripture when the person is dying. The sodality had been about to expire for lack of new recruits when two parishioners learned that they had colleagues in a local chevra-- a Jewish fraternity which attends upon the dying, is present with the body overnight until the funeral, and assists with the preparation of the body-- and felt that their Jewish friends were showing them what needed to be done.
Many years ago, in my old parish, there was a small group of 3-4 older parishioners who were careful to make sure that there were mourners at every funeral in the parish or taken by the incumbent. As there were three missions to the homeless within parish bounds, they usually had two or three funerals a week.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
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Posted
Here in the Untied Methodist Church* we have a prescribed funeral liturgy no one is required to use, so anything goes. And I have seen some pretty ridiculous funerals. Most of them here in the South have recorded country-western songs about strolling over heaven interspersed with the liturgy.
I prefer having and sticking to a prescribed liturgy. And I can't stand it when we try to get too cute with it. Ours is loosely based on the BCP and it is alright. But in my mind nothing compares with the classic beauty of the BCP liturgy. And, because I am not restricted to the authorized liturgy I often use or heavily borrow from the BCP.
[*I meant to type "Untied" because when it comes to liturgy we are anything but "United."]
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I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Well, OK, but if the homily is going to ever mention the deceased, get it right! At my father's funeral, the preacher was new to the church, had never met my father, and spoke about the deceased's virtues -- getting it so wrong one friend asked me if we were at the wrong funeral. My father had virtues, but not the ones the preacher claimed for him. I feel like my father never had a funeral.
That's very difficult and hurtful. I presume that the minister had a funeral visit with your family to get the information for his talk and to organize the service? So it's disappointing that he chose to invent his own material, or was too lazy, careless or mistakenly well-intentioned to be accurate.
The preacher at my grandmother's funeral said, "I know [the widower] wouldn't want me to go on too long," and several people replied, "Then shut up."
I got a good elbow in the ribs for being one of the speakers.
He didn't take the cue and indeed, went on too long, and threw in a veiled altar call.
This was my aunt's preacher. Most of the rest of us do subscribe to some faith or another, but several don't and it was heavily implied since we didn't subscribe to *his* faith we are Doing It Wrong. Which was very, very annoying to me. I would have almost preferred NOT to have a Christian funeral in this case, and I'm a freakin' Christian!
[ 17. December 2012, 13:16: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
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Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Spiffy, that kind of thing is dreadful, too. A member of my 'in-law' family had this experience when her father died, and the distress of being lectured and judged at such a time and in such a way, added horribly to her experience and put her off even thinking going to church for a long time. She wasn't a regular by any means, so additionally resented the rebuke; but she's now been an active - even invaluable - member of another church for several years. And it wasn't the implication of hell for her dead father and the family in his funeral sermon, that worked that miracle!
To anyone who knows what they want: LEAVE INSTRUCTIONS! Sometimes next of kin will just do what they want, anyway. But mostly if it's well known what the decedent would've preferred it'll make it easier all round. I've even had funeral planning conversations with elderly parishioners about what they want when they 'go'.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
To anyone who knows what they want: LEAVE INSTRUCTIONS! Sometimes next of kin will just do what they want, anyway. But mostly if it's well known what the decedent would've preferred it'll make it easier all round. I've even had funeral planning conversations with elderly parishioners about what they want when they 'go'.
A relative-in-law of mine was having this conversation with her (very elderly) mother, approaching 100 I think; would they have a church service or just the crem; tea party after at the care home, or elsewhere? when the dear old lady said 'and after all that, I think I'll be tired and need a little rest' to which her daughter had to say 'You won't be tired, Mother - you'll be DEAD'
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Mrs. S, leaving VERY explicit instructions!
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Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anne:
A couple of personal non-negotiables:
Secular readings and 'spiritual' poetry come first and the bible reading(s) lead(s) into the address. Because that's what I'm going to be talking about.
We don't have "Do not stand at my grave and weep"*
A strong "Yes" to the first.
But I would allow "Do not stand..." (if it were requested - which it rarely is). There are a number of things that personally make me uncomfortable, but if the NoK want them, I feel I should put aside my own feelings. (Of course, if it is something I find completely unaccepable, like a prayer to His Satanic Majesty, then I would definitely put my foot down.)
Quite often I take funerals where I think "I wouldn't have chosen that" - but it clearly matters to the family. Feeling uneasy is a normal part of funeral ministry in my experience!
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Agreed on secular stuff / eulogy (if someone other than me is doing it) before Bible reading and sermon. Preferably separated with a hymn so it's clear.
I have allowed "do not stand at my grace and weep", when it was very clearly the wish of the deceased for it to be used, have made it clear that it was requested / is how people feel, and then contradicted it gently but clearly in the sermon...
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Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Worth adding, in my experience and opinion, the funeral is primarily for the mourners, and the most important thing for me (as the minister) to do is love them. That means respecting their wishes and what they are feeling. It also means pointing them gently, clearly and unambiguously to Jesus.
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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
To paraphrase Neil Innes, how sweet to be an Orthodox. An Orthodox funeral is what it is. Nobody picks the music. Nobody stands up and says anything. It is a set service of the Church, and is not subject to whims or fancies or relatives with poor judgement.
Then afterwards you can go have a party and say whatever you want, play whatever you want, Powerpoint whatever you want.
But the funeral is a worship service of the Church, and is not a party or a concert or a Toastmasters meeting.
I've recently discovered I can have a Eucharist at my funeral! I totally told my husband that's the way it has to be.
I like the idea that the church service is impersonal in a way, but here in Oz we don't have "wakes" or "parties" afterwards. We just have a service at the church then a short thing at the graveside. So I guess that means the church service has to be kind of personal. Otherwise there would be no human touch.
We most certainly do have wakes in Australia, the mourners return to the relatives house after the burial. In a traditional Aussie funeral there is always some sort of wake, what we call an Irish wake involves copious amounts of alcohol and a party, other traditions might be more sedate, eg, a cup of tea and finger sandwiches but there is always some sort of hospitality during which the deceased is remembered/celebrated/mourned after a funeral service/burial/interrment.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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