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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Martin PC Not suspension?
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I presume the Morse code translates to the 6th commandment violation. So if they want to enforce the laws they have the right. However, the specifics of the situation - hosts messing with Martin's posts by removing vowels - might seem to the average reader as instigating an intemperate response, and might thus warrant more latitude. I'm reminded of children who are observed to push others on the playground, with that punished, but the behaviour of the pushed child not taken into account when the pusher is punished. The situation there is often one of empathy and the manifestly unfair response of teachers merely accepted.
I do think some discussion is warranted if this is indeed a suspension, or as seems to be threatened in the relevant Hell thread, worse. One interpretation of this situation would be sitting on someone after poking them and instigating a response.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
I also find this disturbing. the whole of the hostly activity on the thread, actually. it's bullying, and bullying breeds rebellion. If I had been treated as Martin was in Hell I'd probably also have acted out. I've tried to hush up and let you guys have your fun and let it go - especially as Martin has had a good sense of humor about it. But it's bullying, plain and simple, and I'm disgusted.
I say this as someone who was often called on the carpet for being a nasty hellhost. I know - I can be one mean bitch sometimes. But I at least see a pretty big line between verbal abuse and using your power to take away a person's ability to communicate and defend themselves in that setting.
Martin's writing can be challenging for those used to reading at the level of ten year olds, but a little effort brings great payoffs - he has a lot to say and says it beautifully. Since when does the Ship discourage communication on a highly complex level? I thought we took pride in that. This is the first time I've ever seen anyone asked to dumb down for the sake of the hosts. It's a precedent that gives me a chill.
And when do we suspend without giving a warning first?
[ 29. September 2012, 15:46: Message edited by: comet ]
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Perhaps Martin will take the chance to contemplate his manifold sins and wickedness and, when he is allowed back into the Fold of the Righteous he will post with clarity, as he has shown he can but often chooses not to, presumably for his own amusement. It is not amusement for the poor Hosts who have to read every word and have, I think, been remarkably tolerant and shown great restraint.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
Perhaps Martin will take the chance to contemplate his manifold sins and wickedness and, when he is allowed back into the Fold of the Righteous he will post with clarity, as he has shown he can but often chooses not to, presumably for his own amusement. It is not amusement for the poor Hosts who have to read every word and have, I think, been remarkably tolerant and shown great restraint.
are we going to suspend* everyone who is a crappy communicator or obtuse, intentionally or not? (and I don't think he does it intentionally, for the record) then we have a long ass list to get started on. you know as well as I do that there are a lot of people the hosts "have to" read that cause sprains from the eye rolls. I don't think this is a valid reason for a concerted campaign of abusing power to take away someone's ability to communicate. one disemvoweling is cute. after that, it's mean.
As for the poor hosts - I would remind you guys that you're volunteers. you have chosen this job and if it becomes too much of a hardship you can step down. You don't rely on this for your income. it's supposed to be something fun and enjoyable. if the gig causes such suffering, step down.
*yes, I know this was not the official reasoning for his suspension.
[ 29. September 2012, 15:55: Message edited by: comet ]
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
I believe he was warned here. I felt the hosting was a tad harsh but Martin is a grown-up and can play by the rules just like the rest of us. Not all of his cryptic posts that some people are so agog over were these amazing pieces of literature either.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
thank you, Prestor John, I missed that warning. Fair enough. but now I'm baffled on that warning - I'm completely missing the C6 violation in RooK's quoted text.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
I've read RooK's warning which in part told Martin... "So here's the deal: dial back both the 'shroom-like muses and the meth-like impulses voluntarily, immediately, or I shall give the Crew a temporary break from you forcibly."
So he's pretty much told to change his posting style or be suspended. That is bull shit. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Yes, it does seem as though Martin was being deliberately baited. This whole test business was daft in the first place, I'm afraid, so to circumvent it is hardly showing disrespect to the Hosts. IMNSVHO, of course.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Hang on, no. I reckoned and still reckon that Martin was baiting everyone by his deliberately - and he's proved it was deliberate by his posting over the last few days - gnomic utterances.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I don't believe he was being deliberately baited at all. He was asked on one particular thread to comply with a ruling, capricious or not, that's an accepted part of Hell. He wasn't asked to comply with that ruling anywhere else on the boards. He could have walked away from the Hell thread at any time. Instead he decided to give the hosts what amounts to a two-fingered salute. That was his decision.
Yes, the hosts run out of patience sometimes. I don't know how they put up with him for so long - he's shown he's perfectly capable of posting clearly when he wants, but it came across to me like someone playing a long-term game on the boards to appear deliberately cryptic.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
Problem is, even when he complied with posts that were clear and readable he was punished for those as well, which just ain't right. I will admit Martin pushed his luck with the morse code when he knew full well the hell hosts had it in for him on a level I've not seen. And right after Rook's warning. I'm just glad Rook didn't ban him as he'd threatened.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
I'm a little surprised at the handwringing over Martin PC Not's suspension. ISTM Martin's posts were wandering around in a grey zone between mischievous and douchey, and the Admin called the latter. It wasn't that wise of Martin to traipse around in that territory, given the previous Host warning.
Yes, the initial requirement of Martin was capricious and arbitrary. That is the tone that has been set for hosting in Hell. I actually appreciate it. I find it philosophically helpful and sobering to remember that Hellish regimes are capricious and arbitrary. It reminds me of The Good Soldier Šjevk in which a pubkeeper cleaning a portrait of the emperor remarks that flies shit on the emperor's face, and is imprisoned for the remark. However innocent or mischievous an intended remark, Hell is an oppressive place, and reason and mercy do not find a safe home there.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
I'm a little surprised at the handwringing over Martin PC Not's suspension. ISTM Martin's posts were wandering around in a grey zone between mischievous and douchey, and the Admin called the latter. It wasn't that wise of Martin to traipse around in that territory, given the previous Host warning.
I agree with Leaf.
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
I agree with comet.
I thought the Hellhosts were being capricious and bullying--both with the 'testing' and with the disemvowelling. Hell is too important a part of SoF--as a place for conversations that couldn't be had on other parts of the board--to be messed about with in this way.
It was not what Erin would have done. She might have reamed Martin a new asshole, she might have suspended him, but she wouldn't have goaded him and toyed with him in that way.
[ 29. September 2012, 16:54: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
Martin has been on the ship long enough to know where the bounds are. And I've always felt his obscure and obfuscated posting style was deliberate. *shrug*
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
I can't say I agree re Erin. She regularly gave people enough rope to hang themselves with.
I wasn't particularly a fan of limiting Martin's flesch kincaid posting level either. I've had to write to that level enough for work that I know how often comprehensible postings come up as well above 5.0. Thing is? I'm not a hell host. Doublethink is. I sucked as a hell host when I got to be one for a host and admin's day courtesy some admin who decided to accept requests. Doublethink acted capriciously and not kindly. Welp, she's a hell host. I didn't like the way that thread went, so I didn't post in it. I didn't understand why Martin didn't do the same. If he'd made a Styx thread to discuss the flesch kincaid ruling and objected clearly, it might have gone differently. Of course, if he were the kind of poster who would be likely to do so, Doublethink wouldn't have been tempted to impose the reading level ruling in the first place.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I've seen the Hell hosts being capricious while at the same time asserting their authority many times. That's not easy to do, and I respect it a lot when they pull it off.
However, part of capricious humour is giving the other some room to respond in the same spirit. This is what makes it fun: it restores a sense of equality and prevents it from developing into a power trip. Capricious humour never works when one side has all the power.
At H&A day, Hosts are powerful and capricious. They could change my avatar any time, just because they can. But they'd also allow me to make fun of them back. This two-sidedness is what makes it fun. And I believe that this two-sidedness was absent on this Hell thread.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I also find this disturbing. the whole of the hostly activity on the thread, actually. it's bullying,
Respectfully, I disagree; bullying takes place when one can not escape the situation, such in the schoolyard or at work when one needs to make a living.
As a visitor to a talkpage site, one can withdraw from the community, particularly after trying to resolve the matter in the Styx.
Leaving an online community is a sad choice to be faced with, but it is an available form of escape from the situation, so I don't see any action on this website as bullying.
Even when I don't like certain actions at times.
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
As a visitor to a talkpage site, one can withdraw from the community, particularly after trying to resolve the matter in the Styx.
Leaving an online community is a sad choice to be faced with, but it is an available form of escape from the situation, so I don't see any action on this website as bullying.
I don't see the actions here as bullying either. But it's surprising how painful it is to leave a board one visits every day. I left one some time ago (due to a form of bullying) and it was a huge wrench at the time.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I thought Martin had been suspended, not planked. Surely he - and indeed the rest of us - can live without the Ship for a couple of weeks?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Well I think this is sad. I thought Doublethink was, not bullying so much as just teasing Martin a little bit about his posting style. I didn't have much real trouble understanding his posts. Occasionally they were slightly obtuse but at other times, as he might say, they were sublime.
So I was stunned to see what I was watching as a bit of fun turn into a suspension. I think RooK took it to a level unintended by DT. Only she can tell us.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
I never intended to claim authority on the textbook definition of bullying. I was clear that my post was based on my opinion and my perspective. That being said,
quote:
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
bullying takes place when one can not escape the situation, such in the schoolyard or at work when one needs to make a living.
As a visitor to a talkpage site, one can withdraw from the community, particularly after trying to resolve the matter in the Styx.
Leaving an online community is a sad choice to be faced with, but it is an available form of escape from the situation, so I don't see any action on this website as bullying.
Even when I don't like certain actions at times.
I see nothing in here about the ability to escape.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Here is the adult version. I agree - there is nothing about the ability to escape.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Forget about bullying, that's a symptom. I've always understood the guiding principle here to be "Don't be a jerk".
I can't agree with comet that "Martin PC Not" writes beautifully. He is however utterly unique and writes creatively, but not always intelligibly. If you are in a debating forum it's up to you to present your arguments and statements in an comprehensible form. If he wants to write poetic fantasy, I'd suggest it ought to be in Heaven or The Circus.
He's had a slap and I he comes back soon, with things I can understand!
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I think RooK took it to a level unintended by DT.
I think Martin took it to that level. He could have posted in the Styx and made perfectly valid points about Flesch-Kincaid there. He chose not to do that. I suppose he may have felt that it was a very literalist ruling, and hence that a response adhering to the letter and not the spirit was OK. But he is surely smart enough to know that he was pushing his luck.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
There is an absence thus far of host/admin comment and discussion. Makes me fear the change management pattern, where the non-powered group gets to air all of their ideas and comments, followed by pronouncement of how it is. Better from the perspective of a shipmate before the mast would be comment sooner from the quarterdeck
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Forget about bullying, that's a symptom. I've always understood the guiding principle here to be "Don't be a jerk".
I don't feel I can "forget" about bullying. By saying it's a symptom, are you essentially saying he had it coming? I strongly disagree.
It's obviously a matter of varying opinion on whether Martin was purposefully being a jerk. I know I'm a pollyanna; but I don't see him trying to be a dickhead. playing along, yes. even being cheeky where he probably shouldn't have, granted. And after seeing RooK's warning, I see where the suspension was warranted - on the Respecting The Admins level. The jerkishness I see here, within the Hell thread, is on the part of hosts. It takes a lot to cross that line in Hell, but I feel it was crossed. I'm all for a lively hellhost eviscerating. This went beyond that to obstructing a Shipmate's ability to communicate and defend themselves, however elegantly you feel they are capable of doing it.
an another level, I find it a bit offensive that we expect shipmates to dumb down their writing to a reading level equated with children or be punished for it. Aren't we meant to be generally educated adults? I'm the high school drop out, here. I'm willing to put in some work to understand what my fellow posters are saying, why aren't others?
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I can't agree with comet that "Martin PC Not" writes beautifully.
"beautifully" applied to content rather than readability. I often have to read Martin's posts over a few times to absorb them. he has moments of beautiful writing, but he regularly expresses meaning beautifully.
My 11 year old is tackling the Lord of the Rings. he finds the language difficult. I encourage him to put the effort in and persevere; the story is worth it. I feel that way about Martin's posts.
for the record, this post is a Flesch Kinkaid Reading level of 7.66, and according to Doublethink's criteria for Martin in Hell, is a candidate for disemvoweling. I'm fairly certain you all can read this. an arbitrary reading level criteria will not make someone a more direct communicator.
some messages, you have to work for.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
There is an absence thus far of host/admin comment and discussion. Makes me fear the change management pattern, where the non-powered group gets to air all of their ideas and comments, followed by pronouncement of how it is. Better from the perspective of a shipmate before the mast would be comment sooner from the quarterdeck
Watch out. This post is less comprehensible than most of Martin's.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
on second thought - snide and juvenile comment removed.
I apologize.
[ 29. September 2012, 19:21: Message edited by: comet ]
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
I think a very bad decision has been made. I don't think anyone believes there is anything unkind or malicious or destructive about Martin. It looks to me like a decision taken simply in order to win a fight. An unnecessary fight. A fight started by a host. A fight that I'm not sure Martin realised he was caught up in - he was still just busy being himself.
It's a sad day.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Martin had the opportunity to question his treatment in Hell many times over the last while in the Styx. He chose not to.
Instead he continued to complain of his treatment in the Hell threads he posted on (and DH too) with multiple C6 violations.
If RooK snapped (and I, for one, don't think he did) then he snapped after displaying forbearance.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
The jerkishness I see here, within the Hell thread, is on the part of hosts. It takes a lot to cross that line in Hell, but I feel it was crossed. I'm all for a lively hellhost eviscerating. This went beyond that to obstructing a Shipmate's ability to communicate and defend themselves, however elegantly you feel they are capable of doing it.
The argument on the other thread in the Styx was that Martin is perfectly capable of communicating clearly when he feels like it, so he was prevented from communicating in his preferred style, but not prevented from communicating at all. And I do think that's true. He could have posted with simple clarity.
But I don't see why he should have been required to do so in Hell. The recurring problem with Martin's posts, the things he's been warned about in the past, is that it's a lot of work for the hosts to make out whether or not he's insulting people. But in Hell that's not an issue, since Hell is where you're supposed to take your insults.
So why did Doublethink impose an arbitrary readability rule on Martin? She gave no reason at the time. When the inquiry was made in the Styx, RooK's defense cited Martin's behavior in Dead Horses. But if Martin deserved a penalty for his behavior there, he should have been suspended, not played with because Hellhost felt like it. Then Doublethink came on the scene and said that she did it because of the "long term issue we have with the comprehensibility of Martin's posts." But it's not up to hosts to deal with recurring problems. Their duty is to keep the boards running smoothly on a day-to-day basis. If Martin is creating so much trouble for the hosts, it's up to the admins to deal with him, not for the hosts to take matters into their own hands.
Given that the admins didn't act, however, and allowed Doublethink to edit Martin's posts, I think suspending Martin for his response to that editing was wrong. The case for suspending him could have easily been made on the basis of his failure to comply with warnings he's been given in the past. But the administrative structure of the Ship did not work as it should, and Martin played along with Doublethink's antics, and for that he got suspended. Not fair.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
on the question of "readability" - I'm still very troubled by all of this.
Thing is, I don't want this dumbed down. not ever. It's difficult and messy and elegant. Do we really want Martin to edit something like that down to the comfortable and unoffensive reading level of a ten year old?
I'm struggling with any concept of faith anymore. Frankly, most of what I read around here does not instill in me any wish to return to the fold. But there are two posters who regularly make me hope that there is some truth in all of this bullshit. that make me want to believe in the magic and love of it all. One of them is Martin. When he posts, I go seek it out. Hell yes, I have to work for it. but the payoff is worth every moment.
a while back he had some treatise on helping the homeless, the drunks, the generally disaffected. He didn't toot his horn as some sort of noble christian; hell, he complained about how damned hard and thankless it is. He talked about people who take and then want more. he talked about even being in physical danger. But he also somehow in all of that reminded me about WHY WE ARE HERE - to try and help pull each other out of the muck.
And so the next day I volunteered a little of my time and gas and grocery money to give a ride to a local guy who needs a lot of help. He smells. he complains about how the world wronged him. he never seeks out work. He's a total pain in the ass. But he deserves his chances, too. So I gave him a ride to the store, gave him some money. listened to him pulling his eeyore routine. aired out my car afterwards. It was a little thing, but I at least gave a start - and I did it because Martin reminded me to get off my high horse and get to work and quit fucking judging others when I have no idea what sort of monsters hide underneath their virtual beds. (I'm pretty sure Josh doesn't have a bed, actually)
Martin conveyed this to me in a very long, clunky, and grammatically messy post that quite a few people probably skimmed over.
But it kicked me in the ass. He regularly kicks me in the ass. He is one of the few on this site who I say regularly walks the walk - his ramblings actually makes me think of what Jesus might be tying to get through to us all. After all, isn't that what it's all supposed to be about?
so okay, we enforce a conformity of language and culture and then none of us have to actually work for understanding. But then we are less.
Jesus didn't make his people comfortable. probably freaked them right the fuck out. Thankfully, they listened anyway. There is something to learn in listening to the really challenging bits.
We have had to give other people the boot either temporarily or permanently in the past. this is the first example I have seen where that action grew out of trying to force someone to communicate in a way that we find more comfortable and less challenging. it says something about a change in Ship values that I find very disturbing.
The further this thread goes along the more I am tempted towards saying things that could be hurtful, overly personal, and not helpful, so I'm bowing out. I do hope the hosts and admins take our concerns into serious consideration.
Thank you.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I agree with Ruth.
This quickly chosen sentence prom the preface of Henry James' What Maisie Knew got a 29.41 on the FK scale.
quote:
All this would be to say, I at once recognised, that my light vessel of consciousness, swaying in such a draught, couldn't be with verisimilitude a rude little boy; since, beyond the fact that little boys are never so "present," the sensibility of the female young is indubitably, for early youth, the greater, and my plan would call, on the part of my protagonist, for "no end" of sensibility.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I've stayed out of this because at first, although I felt that Doublethink's action was a bit naughty and possibly a bit close to the line, I still grinned a little....in a guilty pleasure sort of way. I found it funny too that Martin was able to subvert the thing. But as it went on I actually started to feel a bit uncomfortable. So now, seeing what's transpired with a suspension I feel very uncomfortable and a sense that something that might have been a joke with a sharpened point has turned into something totally unnecessary. I'd just like to add my voice to the dissent. I think you've gone too far.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
Thank you, Comet (although I'd rather you'd not bow out of this discussion).
By the way, have Comet, Ruth, and I ever agreed on anything before? Ever?
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) had that thought myself. there's a first for everything, Punk!
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
On reflection, reading comet's reply and RuthW's post (and not others) .... I'm not sure any more. I can see why Martin might still be on board but also, as he was walking the gunwales, why he is now overboard. I do however find him immensely frustrating, because I'm convinced he can be just as effective using far simpler language; but then I prefer Hemingway to Henry James.
I'd be disappointed if there hadn't been behind the scenes PMs from the Admins to Martin PC trying to take the heat out of the situation. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
I would say that pretty much everyone who has ever been a Hellhost has gone completely OTT from time to time – as far as I could tell (though, often it turns out there was a back story I'd missed).
In comparison, we have here a story of someone who, though delightful in many ways, and occasionally inspiring, has a persist record of being apparently deliberately obscure and difficult. Now, I recognise, that the FKG is a deeply inadequate measure of readability, and I'm sure Doublethink does too, but Martin has been asked to be less obscure in the past and, for want of a reliable measure, those requests have got nowhere.
In Hell, he was given a very specific hostly warning – and it was clearly a hostly warning, albeit fairly light-hearted. He did not dispute the hostly warning in the Styx but he did flout it, and took the consequences, which then caused others to protest in the Styx. But, despite the debate in the Styx, he want on challenging the ruling in Hell. The consequences were utterly predictable.
Martin is very much a grown up and, I suspect, not easily bullied. He enjoys a joke – and he wouldn't be the first – and probably won't be the last – to recognise that dangerous jokes are the funniest jokes of all. He went down in flames and I'm sure he will rise again from the ashes. For my money, the hand-wringing is overdone, though I hope Martin can still enjoy it.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
Thank you, Comet (although I'd rather you'd not bow out of this discussion).
Agreed. Completely. You've kept me going at times when I've lost it, just like you attribute to others.
There is more to communication than the meaning, difficult ideas often require difficult phrasings and words, and sometimes the manner of communication is the message. I agree with you Comet, that sometimes that's the point, it's how things are said that touch us. Well certainly me.
On further reflection after a ramble along the river with the dogs, I'm struck with the de-vowelling of Martin's posts, so as to make them incomprehensible, but apparently taken as a game. The game then extended as sparring and teasing continued with the readability scores. Then someone comes along and says it isn't a game any more. When exactly did the game stop and the serious stuff start? It certainly cannot be contributed to by use of languages other than English with the Morse code, given the de-vowelling turns English into gibberish.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
In the interests of speaking up for what I perceive as fairness, I too would like to add my voice to the dissent. Much to my surprise I find myself in total agreement with Comet.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I also find this disturbing. the whole of the hostly activity on the thread, actually. it's bullying,
Respectfully, I disagree; bullying takes place when one can not escape the situation, such in the schoolyard or at work when one needs to make a living.
As a visitor to a talkpage site, one can withdraw from the community, particularly after trying to resolve the matter in the Styx.
Leaving an online community is a sad choice to be faced with, but it is an available form of escape from the situation, so I don't see any action on this website as bullying.
Even when I don't like certain actions at times.
I suspect verbiage-ism is as hurtful as age-ism and vice-a-versa. I have noted your absence LB.
I know we all have our own buttons. And both on board as in real life, there are times when I wish I hadn't responded and just walked away. The fun thing is our buttons vary on our life circumstances including sleep deprivation. My memory says RooK is changing nappies and not sleeping much at the moment. My guess is he is exhausted. LB is hurting, I suspect about the ageist crap which pushed his buttons. And for me, I don't like generalizations about certain professions despite making them myself about others in the past. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) So I think the point LB was making was to apply the same inaccurate yardstick to this situation that was recently applied to his own.
Bu then again, I may be wrong.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
Me too, and I've sent my own pot shots at Martin in the past. The thing that stood out was that about Martin actually walking the walk. He's one of the few that do.
I'm sure he'll be back in a few weeks, but we'll be poorer without him in the meantime.
(x-post, was agreeing with evangeline)
[ 29. September 2012, 22:21: Message edited by: goperryrevs ]
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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