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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Martin PC Not suspension?
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
The jerkishness I see here, within the Hell thread, is on the part of hosts. It takes a lot to cross that line in Hell, but I feel it was crossed. I'm all for a lively hellhost eviscerating. This went beyond that to obstructing a Shipmate's ability to communicate and defend themselves, however elegantly you feel they are capable of doing it.
The argument on the other thread in the Styx was that Martin is perfectly capable of communicating clearly when he feels like it, so he was prevented from communicating in his preferred style, but not prevented from communicating at all. And I do think that's true. He could have posted with simple clarity.
But he had later posts that were clear and that were disemvoweled anyway. That was inexcusable and just plain mean vindictiveness. In other words, being a jerk. Which is supposed to be a C violation.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Are we even discussing Martin's suspension any more? The guy who has been unfairly prevented from participating for an unknown length of time, just because I hope to delay a couple Hosts from gouging their own eyes out? Because that's the rotten heart of it, and has fuck-all to do with fairness.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Are we even discussing Martin's suspension any more? The guy who has been unfairly prevented from participating for an unknown length of time, just because I hope to delay a couple Hosts from gouging their own eyes out? Because that's the rotten heart of it, and has fuck-all to do with fairness.
While I consider the provoking wrong, the suspension was right IMO because Martin pushed the envelope of a Command violation after being warned. The end situation was justified, but came about because unfairness. Perhaps the Hosts in question need some chocolate and a well deserved break from the stress of duties to regain a sense of peace and zen? Hell can be, well, hell and lead to the same behaviors on the part of hosts that is barred by shipmates.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Yes, RooK, we are still discussing that. It's a shame you don't have enough respect for shipmates to do more than give them all the middle finger.
That Martin made hosts crazy is reason enough for his suspension. But the way it came about was wrong, and process matters.
[ 30. September 2012, 03:17: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Are we even discussing Martin's suspension any more?
That's rather obvious isn't it? You do not want us to? Is this now not permitted? The tone of your post seems to suggest this. But we are asking about the decision, and the apparent shut-down tone doesn't answer.
quote:
RooK:
The guy who has been unfairly prevented from participating for an unknown length of time, just because I hope to delay a couple Hosts from gouging their own eyes out? Because that's the rotten heart of it, and has fuck-all to do with fairness.
If people are preparing to gouge their eyes in response to what is present in the thread in question, pray tell why they played a game with it re vowels and reading level. Or perhaps they would care to explain. It does not follow. You don't play when you're that distraught.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
It's a shame you don't have enough respect for shipmates to do more than give them all the middle finger.
Well, I wouldn't want to shock them by suddenly treating them differently than usual. They might all suddenly realize that I'm human and therefore edible.
quote:
But the way it came about was wrong, and process matters.
I will agree that it was not particularly fair.
But I'll also demur that fairness is not really the hallmark of Hell.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
That's rather obvious isn't it?
Actually, no. It seemed to be more about Doublethink's goading rather than Martin's decision to post something that would get him suspended.
quote:
If people are preparing to gouge their eyes in response to what is present in the thread in question, pray tell why they played a game with it re vowels and reading level. Or perhaps they would care to explain. It does not follow. You don't play when you're that distraught.
There are more than one thread/board in question, and Doublethink is hardly the Speaker For The Mods. She's just the amusingly malicious Hellhost that found a way to provoke Martin in a karmically appropriate manner.
Martin's lack of acknowledgement of my earlier warning in Dead Horses had me worried that he wasn't going to even try to work with me. So I was a hair-trigger, and that's not Doublethink's fault.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
unfairly prevented from participating for an unknown length of time
I think the fact that the length of time is unknown is particularly unfair.
I would like it to be made known to everybody.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
]I will agree that it was not particularly fair.
But I'll also demur that fairness is not really the hallmark of Hell. ...
There are more than one thread/board in question, and Doublethink is hardly the Speaker For The Mods. She's just the amusingly malicious Hellhost that found a way to provoke Martin in a karmically appropriate manner.
[/QB]
So the situation is, Martin was goaded in hell for posting in a way that irritated/upset hosts on other boards just so an unfair punishment could be inflicted and then justified on the basis that hell isn't fair.
I think it would have been more transparent just to impose the penalty on Marin immediately on the board/s were he offended instead of this weird pretence of I'm not sure what-trying to look fair????
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It was a C6 violation.
I thought Doublethink's original approach in Hell might give Martin pause for thought about his self-admittedly deliberately obscure posting style. Combo of a corrective and a rather good wheeze.
Me? I'd have laughed, posted "point taken, I'll try to be more careful", and moved on.
Martin chose to take it on, even after an Admin signal that it was getting serious. With inevitable consequences.
I hope and believe he'll be back before too long. Personally, and within reasonable limits, I think his somewhat strange ways of posting add to the general melee. But I don't have a problem with the signal that a bit of behaviour modification when posting wouldn't come amiss. In the end, RooK had to call foul and show the red card. That's what happens with C6 violations. It was a deliberate foul, folks. To my mind, there's no getting away from that.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
C6 is about respecting the Hosts and Admins. It takes some strange mental gymnastics to respect someone who is acting in an arbitrary and childish way. I'm afraid Doublethink lost my respect due to her recent behavior in Hell, and others repeating "C6" all over the place is not enough to change my mind.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
That's not a view I share, but in any case I don't think it matters. The Styx is the place to query Hosts' behaviour and rulings, not the thread on which the causes for concern happened. Anyone can protest in the Styx until a Styx Host calls time. The C6 call arose because of behaviour in Hell. Wrong board to protest.
Is that really all that difficult?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The Styx is the place to query Hosts' behaviour and rulings, not the thread on which the causes for concern happened. Anyone can protest in the Styx until a Styx Host calls time. The C6 call arose because of behaviour in Hell. Wrong board to protest.
Is that really all that difficult?
It looks as though Hosts' behaviour and rulings is being queried, or am I missing something? When so much disgruntlement is generated amongst so many long-time members over the treatment of a member who many of them have themselves grumbled about over the years, you have to wonder if some reflection is in order.
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
She's just the amusingly malicious Hellhost that found a way to provoke Martin in a karmically appropriate manner.
Sounds like entrapment to me. And Martin's on my "scroll past" list so it's not like I'm a big fan.
(And "found a way" seems to suggest "looking for a way".)
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Doublethink's treatment of Martin is only justifiable if it is, as Barnabas62 says, a wheeze. If it ends in a suspension then it isn't a wheeze. At some point a game has become personal and nasty, and it was DT's game, and she made sure Martin not only couldn't play it on equal terms - arguably funny - but also couldn't respond to it at all. He had no voice. He couldn't be himself. That's horrible if it goes on for more than a moment. When it becomes a suspension, and an indeterminate one at that ..
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
RooK, your original warning telling Martin to change his posting style got all the respect it deserved . . . none.
How should he have acknowledged such an absurd demand? If I were in his shoes, I would have told you to eff off . . . in a very round about way, off course.
If you want respect, be respectable.
Until you apologize, you have completely lost mine.
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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Doublethink's treatment of Martin is only justifiable if it is, as Barnabas62 says, a wheeze. If it ends in a suspension then it isn't a wheeze. At some point a game has become personal and nasty, and it was DT's game, and she made sure Martin not only couldn't play it on equal terms - arguably funny - but also couldn't respond to it at all. He had no voice. He couldn't be himself. That's horrible if it goes on for more than a moment. When it becomes a suspension, and an indeterminate one at that ..
Which is why I hope Martin's suspension, though valid for the C6 violation, is short and would urge some counsel for DT as this truly was jerkish vindictiveness - especially when completely clear posts were devoweled. Hosts are human, but standards should be upheld for them on the boards they host as well as for shipmates.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Is that really all that difficult?
Actually yes, I think this all that difficult.
In ordinary purgatorial mode the line between hostly behaviour and posting as shipmate is clear, and it isn't all that difficult to work out when to go to the styx.
But with a host behaving in hellish manner and capriciously disemvowelling posts, I think the line between what needs to be respected as hostly ruling and what is part of the rough and tumble of hell is actually quite difficult.
What RooK posted in Dead Horses was crystal clear as an adminly instruction. That the context of that extended to hell when a host is messing around with your posts and running them through a reading score is actually not so straightforward.
I completely see the point that hosts wish to minimise the rings under their eyes, and my find Martin's posting style tiring. I think it is perfectly legitimate to say so, and give warnings in that regard.
But when what appears to be a playful mode in hell turns into completely serious banning mode, then I think it is all that difficult.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Starbug
Shipmate
# 15917
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Posted
As someone who is relatively new to the Ship, it seems to me that Martin's suspension has upset a number of long-term shipmates, who have far more previous knowledge of these boards than me. Personally, I think it's unfair to suspend anyone (not just Martin) for an unknown length of time - if I had to give one of my staff a written warning, I would have to let them know exactly how long that warning would remain on their file. It would be cruel to impose a warning and keep dangling it over their head for an indeterminate period.
As far as Martin's 'readability count' is concerned - if I don't understand something he says, I just skip over it. The disemvowelling was funny the first time, but after that it starts to appear vindinctive.
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“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor
Posts: 1189 | From: West of the New Forest | Registered: Sep 2010
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Pooks
Shipmate
# 11425
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Posted
I can't speak for DT, but when I saw what DT did to Martin's posts in Hell, I did wonder if it's a sign that she's pulling her hair out behind the scenes. I skip all Martin's posts because I am one of those slow and dumb readers that Comet mentioned, who couldn't be bothered to have to read a post two or three times just to understand what the poster is on about. I want to get on with reading the thread so I can move on to other threads. But skipping posts is not an option open to the hosts. Given the Hell thread in question was opened by Martin, it would probably mean it's going to have more than one of Martin's contributions in it that a host would have to read or decipher. Personally I can see why this could be alarming to anyone who finds Martin's style difficult or frustrating to read. Now some people when frustrated may choose to shout, others may not want to lose their rag so choose to use humour to defuse their own irritation while still making a point. Given DT is a Brit and she usually chooses to use knowledge and logic to deal with topics and situations, I suspect that she did what she did either because she's in a great mood (and decided to have some fun) or it's a sign that she was irritated, but was making a point in a clear but round about way. (Those were the only two logical explanations that I could come up with). All this is to say that while I think DT's action in Hell is understandable, the problem is that it could have at least two different interpretations. Martin may just have thought DT and others were having fun at his expense so played along?
Now the big bird, er, I mean Rook. Yes I do think he is a tyrant, but I think it's unfair to say his tyranny is only caused by the lack of chocorrit – that's what he would like you to believe. I think at least a part of it is caused by the birdy nature of an admin which is just like a mother hen protecting a chick in distress. He is going to protect his hosts every time.
Of course I could be wrong about everyone involved. So I'll shuddup and go back to picking my mangy fur.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: May 2006
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
... she made sure Martin not only couldn't play it on equal terms - arguably funny - but also couldn't respond to it at all. He had no voice. He couldn't be himself. That's horrible if it goes on for more than a moment. When it becomes a suspension, and an indeterminate one at that ..
I think you underestimate Martin. He could and did respond to it in a variety of ways. He was, in fact, suspended precisely for responding inappropriately on the thread in question. He could have got round the restrictions by responding in the appropriate place: the Styx.
Hell hosting often treads a thin line; shipmates know where to go to complain. Martin was/is not some terrified bunny cowering before the headlights of an oncoming truck - nor was he left without a voice. He chose not to make his protest in the place where it would have been heard, and (probably) effective.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
As someone who is relatively new to the Ship, it seems to me that Martin's suspension has upset a number of long-term shipmates, who have far more previous knowledge of these boards than me.
No, this is normal every time someone who has been around for some time is banned or suspended, however much people were irritated by the person before the suspension or banning. What happens is you get:
- All those who think the Ship should be run their way commenting how to do it better;
- those who hate Hell coming to Hell bash;
- those who think the Ship doesn't make enough allowances for people who don't fit in coming to say the Ship hasn't been supportive enough*;
- those who are friends with the person involved and think an exception should be made;
- those who think the Ship is no longer in the wonderful Golden Age when (times vary depending on poster)
and so on ...
I'm not sure how much can actually be done to sort out any of that lot. Some assumptions have to be made, particularly that people voluntarily joining the Ship are adults and have bothered to read enough to know how the boards work (although the lack of knowledge never ceases to amaze me). And that as adults they can choose to make their own decisions.
* I do that for the day job, I quite like being unPC somewhere, and not have to spell everything out in words of one syllable.
edited to remove spare word
[ 30. September 2012, 13:38: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
and so on ...
.. so there's never any need to take anyone who disagrees seriously.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
hatless: Doublethink's treatment of Martin is only justifiable if it is, as Barnabas62 says, a wheeze. If it ends in a suspension then it isn't a wheeze. At some point a game has become personal and nasty, and it was DT's game, and she made sure Martin not only couldn't play it on equal terms - arguably funny - but also couldn't respond to it at all. He had no voice. He couldn't be himself. That's horrible if it goes on for more than a moment. When it becomes a suspension, and an indeterminate one at that ..
This.
The game wasn't funny anymore.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Although it appeared to have the elements of a game, it began as a very clear Hell host warning. I admit to having played up the game element myself and for that I'm sorry, as I now feel that I may have egged Martin on (though he's not a guy with a noticeable egg shortage). I like both DT and Martin, would happily meet them both in real life and stand them a drink (separately or together) in pretty much any hostelry they care to name where the beer is less than £5 a pint (that's not a limit on what kind of drink I would buy, just a limit on the type hostelry).
FKG 15.27 by the way
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
and so on ...
.. so there's never any need to take anyone who disagrees seriously.
No, that there are a lot of competing interests and that not all if any of them can be satisfied.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Hom many posts by Martin are there in this thread?
How many posts are there by Martin in the Styx to query this final warning?
Do my old eyes deceive me, or is the answer zero in both cases?
As QLib says, he could have sounded off here to his heart's content. He'd already attracted some support. Personally I don't have a clue why he decided not to do that and we have a good general guideline to to criticise Shipmates who have been sent ashore.
But I do wonder what the Hell he was playing at.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Sorry for the double post, but I'd want to add that in a way to me, Hell can be the fairest board on the Ship. Yes, it can get nasty and capricious. But below this, it has an atmosphere of: you can call someone names, but expect other people to call you names back. You may say nasty things, but prepared to receive nasty things back. And I really respect the Hell hosts for being able to maintain and support this kind of fairness.
In Martin's case however, it was as if someone sat on him in the schoolyard so that he couldn't move and then suspended him for trying to defend himself. Yes, he could have run to the schoolmaster (the Styx), but I wouldn't have done that either. I'd have put up a fight, just like Martin did, all within the spirit in which Doublethink started it.
His problem is: the one putting him to the ground was a Hellhost, and when Martin fought back, the Admins decided to use their power.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Poor analogy. The Hosts are the schoolmasters, but if you think they've treated you badly in the playground, you have the right to go for a public hearing before the governing body.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Although it appeared to have the elements of a game, it began as a very clear Hell host warning. I admit to having played up the game element myself and for that I'm sorry, as I now feel that I may have egged Martin on (though he's not a guy with a noticeable egg shortage). I like both DT and Martin, would happily meet them both in real life and stand them a drink (separately or together) in pretty much any hostelry they care to name where the beer is less than £5 a pint (that's not a limit on what kind of drink I would buy, just a limit on the type hostelry).
FKG 15.27 by the way
The hostly warning was to post in clear English that anyone would understand and even when Martin did that his posts were disemvoweled. That is what I fault DT for. It ceased to be either discipline or a game and gave the appearance of a personal vendetta. I usually have the highest respect for DT. Martin should have known his very last post, would result in a suspension. That is his fault. He should have been complaining here - loudly. I wish I knew why he didn't.
Just a side comment: while bannings or suspensions of controversial people generate large Styx threads, I've not seen one where so many people who didn't like the individual involved have objected to their treatment. I've only been here a couple of years, so perhaps I've missed some blowouts in the past where this occurred.
I'm game for the beer with everyone...
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
QLib: Poor analogy. The Hosts are the schoolmasters, but if you think they've treated you badly in the playground, you have the right to go for a public hearing before the governing body.
Whatever. The important thing for me is what this means to Hell.
I've called people to Hell a couple of times, and I've been called nasty things, including by Hell hosts. But the fairness of Hell is that when someone says something nasty to me, I can always say something back. And I can trust the Hell hosts to make sure that I have that possibility.
It's this trust that has been violated. It was a Hellhost that said (or in this case: did) something nasty to Martin, and it was the same Hellhost that made sure that he couldn't say anything back. And when he tried, he was suspended.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Sorry, my post should have said " ....not to criticise ...".
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
The hostly warning was to post in clear English that anyone would understand and even when Martin did that his posts were disemvoweled. ...
I'm game for the beer with everyone...
Yes to the beer, but as regards your post, DT was much more specific. She said quote:
I am making a special rule just for you Martin - any more posts on this thread by you must have a Flesch–Kincaid Readability Level of a maximum of grade 5. If you post something that doesn't, I will disemvowel it.
(My bold)
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
The hostly warning was to post in clear English that anyone would understand and even when Martin did that his posts were disemvoweled. ...
I'm game for the beer with everyone...
Yes to the beer, but as regards your post, DT was much more specific. She said quote:
I am making a special rule just for you Martin - any more posts on this thread by you must have a Flesch–Kincaid Readability Level of a maximum of grade 5. If you post something that doesn't, I will disemvowel it.
(My bold)
There were a couple of very good posts that were a shade shy of the desired score. It would have been good to let those go. They were clear, which is what hosts and Admins stated they want. Martin also pretty much showed the scoring method was worthless, of course that got him banned. It could have and should have been handled differently by all involved except maybe Rook. Poor guy gets left with the dirty work.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
There are a few things that continue to bother me.
Martin went to Hell because Louise directed him there--he was making remarks about other posters that are only allowed in Hell. We've always been led to believe that that safety valve function is the only--or at least, the most--legitimate function of Hell. The addition of an extra rule aimed only at Martin undermined that function, whether intentionally or not.
As for taking complaints to Styx, I can think of very few times during my passage on the Ship where that made any difference at all. Reversals of rulings and apologies are not non-existent, but they are so rare as to be statistically insignificant. So I can understand why Martin might have considered posting here a waste of time--which means, perhaps, that the usefulness of Styx has been undermined as well.
What I have noticed is that Styx threads influence future behavior--hosts won't step in the same cowpie twice.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
RooK, your original warning telling Martin to change his posting style got all the respect it deserved . . . none.
...
Until you apologize, you have completely lost mine.
I guess I'll have to learn to carry on anyway.
You may find your philosophical stance to have some pragmatic complications.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
The addition of an extra rule aimed only at Martin
This.
And that's where, IMO, things went south fast.
There are posters here posting in what seems to be their first language whose usage of English, &/or spelling, &/or punctuation, get up my nose. I regard this as my own personal problem. Am I right about this, or am I wrong?
Often I have to read sentences of theirs twice to make head or tail of what I'm reading. I think I've only ever seen other Shipmates, not Hosts, address issues like these. It's one of the things I appreciate about the Ship; there's no "My Fair Lady" crap about how people use the language.
Until now.
Granted, I'm not a Host required to read every tedious (or brilliant) word that's posted. Granted, many posters here have been called to Hell over posting styles.
But Martin was not called to Hell -- in this instance, anyway -- over his posting style.
DT or RooK or anyone else irritated over Martin's posting style could have at him, then, instead of setting him up for ambush. Why make a special rule for one, and only one, Shipmate? ISTM there can be only one explanation for this, and it's one that doesn't reflect well on the Ship.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
I fail to see how the suspension had anything to do with Doublethink's rule. In the post announcing the suspension, Rook refers only to the content of what Martin posted as a C6 ("Respect the Ship's crew") violation, not to the style of the post, and not even to the fact that the content was encoded in Morse code. And this was after this warning from Rook about a possible C6 violation. Martin was both complaining about hosting outside of The Styx and admitting to circumventing that hosting. How does that not warrant Rook's decision to suspend him?
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
RooK, your original warning telling Martin to change his posting style got all the respect it deserved . . . none. ... Until you apologize, you have completely lost mine.
I guess I'll have to learn to carry on anyway. You may find your philosophical stance to have some pragmatic complications.
It is easy to deal with people pragmatically when one has lost all respect for them. Which is why many of us care about respect, whether from friend or foe.
Well, Martin doesn't fit in a box, that's for sure... Not even in the one for conforming non-conformists, it appears.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Well, your mileage varies.
In my view, Martin was singled out, first, for his admittedly hard-to-follow posting style.
Then a rule not applied to other other Shipmates posting on that thread was applied to him alone.
Then his ability to express himself was effectively eradicated through disemvowelling.
Met with this singularly-applied treatment, he perhaps lost his equilibrium, leading to the C6 violation. I don't know Martin, and grasp perhaps half, or less, of what he writes; but I get the impression that language, especially in the unusual ways he employs it, is of enormous importance to Martin. I could be wrong; it's just an impression. Perhaps he's been having us all on. What do I know? I'm Mercan, and do not speak the Queen's English.
Of course it's possible to limit one's view to the immediate violation and ignore what led up to it. But then we're back at the "bullying" discussion further upthread. And from where I sit (having no part in the Hell thread Martin began), it looks like a set-up. Or, as Sine pointed out above, entrapment.
X-posted; meant to respond to Hyatt above.
[ 30. September 2012, 20:04: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I have mixed feelings about this. I don't think that, given my understanding of hell, the FKG rule with disemvollewing was an unreasonable thing to do. I am however, willing to accept that is the collective view and would not do something similar again.
(Obviously, if I had thought it was clearly borderline I would have discussed the matter with the admins in detail first.)
On reflection, I do regret the consonant removal, as I did not really appreciate the overall effect until after reposting.
I did not anticipate that the thread would end with Martin being suspended - I think that is an unfortunate conjunction of circumstances with what was going on in Dead Horses. It was not my call, and I am not going to comment further on it.
[For the record; three of Martin's posts on one thread on the Hell board were edited, two were disemvollewed and one had the consonants removed.]
[ 30. September 2012, 20:36: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Thank you for your response, DT. It helps to step back and recognize that the ultimate suspension was an accidental conflation of circumstances on two different threads. For me, it also helps to know that you're re-thinking the strategy employed in Martin's hell thread.
I find Martin's style opaque. At the same time, there is something I find aesthetically intriguing about that opacity. (But then, I also read poetry, something not many Mercans do.)
These little black marks on white screen-space comprise our only access to meaningful participation here. Rendering someone's posts unreadable seems to me the equivalent of suspension -- in fact, worse (though I'm unable to articulate quite why, at the moment).
That action also prevents others from evaluating the affected individual's responses. It seems like shunning to me.
I do feel for hosts trying to work out what the hell Martin is on about. Unlike the rest of us, you lack the option of scrolling on by. And yes, I too wish Martin would try a little harder for clarity.
I hope that Martin will soon be allowed to return. That said, if it had been my posts which were rendered unreadable, I'm not sure I'd accept any such invitation.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Well, Martin doesn't fit in a box, that's for sure... Not even in the one for conforming non-conformists, it appears.
He's a nonconforming nonconformist, which doesn't make him a conformist.
I suppose it takes one to know one.
Some lessons maybe for all of us in this - including Martin. I had a draft post pointing out the accidental combo of DH and Hell H & A actions, but sat on it, thinking I'd maybe posted too much already. Anyway, Doublethink put it much better.
There was no bad-faith entrapment or ambushing going on here. Conforming (that dirty word again) to the general rule that accidental combinations of circumstances (cockups if you like) explain more of life than conspiracy theories ever do.
I still think it was a pretty good wheeze, with a good and necessary corrective intent. Seemed well in line with the Hostly insouciance, for example, of Sarkycow and RooK himself when they were HellHosts. Neither of them took any prisoners when it came to imaginative and original corrective action.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
There was no bad-faith entrapment or ambushing going on here.
Then RooK's "found a way to provoke Martin" comment was particularly unfortunate or inept.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
I think the word you're struggling for is "evil".
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
I don't think anyone can quite picture Sine struggling for a word.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
So we have a C6 violation; disrespect to the crew. But Doublethink has no issue. Go figure.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
I think the word you're struggling for is "evil".
You flatter yourself.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I am unhappy about wading in here. I like both Rook and Martin. In a perfect world Martin would be posting and Rook would not be the object of angry posting.
Did Martin break a rule? The translation is correct. See for yourselves. He did. I thought it was funny. I am not in a position of enforcing the rules. Rook is. Rules should apply across the board, with no exceptions for old hands, or favorites. Martin broke a rule that is a bedrock of making the Ship sail smoothly. Something had to happen.
In a living demonstration of how even good people make mistakes, I was a host on the Ship once. I made mistakes. And when I did, I was given some guidance where guidance was needed and I got my ass chewed where my ass needed to be chewed. When either happened, it was not done in public. Hosts on the Ship need to have an aura of being respected. That aura of respect prevents all kinds of potential problems from ever arising. Having a public ass chewing is not terribly conducive to maintaining that aura of respect.
Additionally, hosting is a volunteer job. They don't get paid. They get perks and respect. Public slagging is not, let me assure you, a perk.
Is it wrong to question what DT did? No. Was it within the tradition of Hell hosting? Yes. Did Martin himself question it? No. Will DT have some discussion about what she did in the appropriate forum? Not my problem.
The suspension will be over soon enough. Life will go on. The Sun will seem to rise in the morning and seem to set in the evening.
What is said in the Styx is taken seriously. Our Hosts and Administrators are here because we are all friends. They wish to remain our friends and therefore take criticism seriously. Some of you know that first hand.
I am not asking anyone to stop posting, or questioning. I am just saying that the end is not nigh and all may not be as it seems.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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