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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Dogpiling in Hell
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
The intention of the dogpiler is to cause hurt.
You seem clear about that. Is it because that is part of the definition of dogpiling for you?
Indeed, knowing intention is very difficult, if not impossible. If dogpiling occurs then I suppose those doing the dogpiling could be working under a number of possible intentions, including:
1. They think someone deserves it
2. They think it's some form of game
3. They want to impress their peers (ie: others engaging in the dogpile) with their wit and quality of insults
4. They're going along with the crowd
5. Something else
or, a combination of motives.
And, even option 1 does not necessarily imply they intend harm. They may be attempting to lovingly and gently correct someone they consider to have behaved badly, they may or may not be any good at being loving and gentle.
Which is why although we are aware of different ways of abusing Hell and undermining it's purpose, and suspect that some of those abuses are happening, we rarely call people on them. We just don't know if they are pissing about or genuinely aggrieved. Which is a leniency that several people posting on this thread have benefitted from.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
I speak from personal experience, Tubbs. I have received obviously intentionally harmful personal abuse from people towards whom I know for certain I intended no harm. I see similar things apparently happening to others. I dislike the process, and think it a serious flaw of the Ship.
It's my perspective, that's all. Mileages vary.
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این نیز بگذرد
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Indeed I think your mileage was once that those seeking to guess your intent were wide of the mark and that even the attempt to make a window into your soul was fundamentally flawed.
I don't understand what experience of another's intent might be. It can surely only be an impression rather than actual experience.
When you say that others obviously intended to hurt, might it simply have been that they were furiously pissed off with you? And that your lack of intent to hurt anyone might not be so obvious when you are furiously pissed of with someone else?
[ 09. November 2012, 14:17: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I speak from personal experience, Tubbs. I have received obviously intentionally harmful personal abuse from people towards whom I know for certain I intended no harm. I see similar things apparently happening to others. I dislike the process, and think it a serious flaw of the Ship.
And yet, it is a process in which you have participated.
My skin is thicker than some and I wasn't offended (as my later remarks to you show, I trust) but I question to what extent you can really be said to know that.
I bring this up primarily to emphasize points made above; if you want a better behaviour in Hell, model a better behaviour in Hell. I'm not proud of every post I've ever made in Hell, and my views have evolved over time. I've never regretted a post I failed to make, though, and there have been many where I had the grace to think twice before hitting the "Add Reply" button.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I don't understand what experience of another's intent might be. It can surely only be an impression rather than actual experience.
Well I guess you're right, but when twenty-one people say 'you are a shit-eating spunky fuck weasel cunt who should leave the ship, and so-say all of us', I think it's fair to assume their collective intention is to hurt. But yeah, perhaps it's just Christian Love, and I'm experiencing it wrongly.
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
OB, that was a mean thing for me to say, and I apologise. I don't see how it applies directly to the question of dogpiling though. It's one thing for an individual to say something mean, but another for a group of people to do so with collectively harmful intention. That's a different creature altogether, from the recipient's perspective at least.
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این نیز بگذرد
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
OB, that was a mean thing for me to say, and I apologise. I don't see how it applies directly to the question of dogpiling though. It's one thing for an individual to say something mean, but another for a group of people to do so with collectively harmful intention. That's a different creature altogether, from the recipient's perspective at least.
Each dogpile is made up of individual posts added to together to make a whole. Why would your post not be counted in the pile while others would be?
And what's with this "group of people ... with a collectively harmful intention" comment?
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
Well, Yorick, as I re-read my original post about leo I wasn't very proud of myself either. I wish it had been one of those posts I left unposted.
I wasn't really trying to address dog-piling at that point, though--I was struck by your phrase "intentionally harmful personal abuse from people towards whom I know for certain I intended no harm" and replying to that. Every dog-pile, after all, starts with a single post.
I think your experience may be unique, though. At one time there was a wide sense among Shipmates that you had betrayed their trust. To your credit, you've stuck around and, IMHO, demonstrated that the Ship has become something important to you. Believe it or not, when you are away for a while I actually miss seeing you around.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
I have a hard enough time getting a clear idea of my own intentions, let alone those of the people I live with. I have no hope of knowing the intentions of people posting here, except insofar as they tell me explicitly what their intentions are. And the idea of a collective intention of a group of posters even existing, let alone being able to know what it is, is fantasy or delusion.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
Yorick, I apologize for making my comments personal. I though I was posting in Hell and did not realize my mistake until after I posted and right before I left my computer for RL. But that's just a reason, not an excuse. I was out of line and I regret it.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Not at all- it wasn't the least bit offensive and was pretty well said, I thought. No apology required, but thanks any way.
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این نیز بگذرد
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
... some of the most absolutely malicious, intentionally hateful things I have ever seen uttered on the ship 0were by the righteous people doing the calling.
Well, we must be inhabiting different boards, then, because I would say that self-righteous and hurtful is one of the things most likely to earn a Hell call, unless the poster is perceived to be answering like with like. Also likely to earn Hell calls are those who appear to blithely disregard the possibility that they might be hurting others.
These are relatively public boards. If a poster has managed to piss off 30 readers, how many people are allowed to reply? 5? 10? Fuck that.
We have people here who seem to want the right to offend but not the right to be offended back in return,especially when that comes with the added pain of discovering that they are in a minority.
Zach, I accept that you genuinely mean well, but I'm (not very) afraid that I find it absolutely un-fucking-believable that one, in particular, of the complainers here has never intended to hurt others. I also think that you will usually find, in almost any so-called dogpile, several well-meaning posters trying to give good advice.
Neither is it my experience that people are told to leave the ship - they are told to leave if they don't like the culture, or if they can't accept the rules, or if they can't engage; they might be advised to take a break from posting, but I don't think they are often told to just leave. But please feel free to prove me wrong - there are so many vague and exaggerated allegations flying around here, a few hard facts would be very welcome.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Each dogpile is made up of individual posts added to together to make a whole. Why would your post not be counted in the pile while others would be?
And what's with this "group of people ... with a collectively harmful intention" comment?
Good questions, both. I would say that, as an atheist, I am likely to find myself in a minority position in any discussion here. That's not an excuse of course, but because of my worldview I think it's easier for my, erm, assertive approach to discussion to be unpopular and to be found offensive.
In any case, a dogpilee is necessarily in the minority, by definition. Everybody who attacks one simultaneously will be seen collectively, however individualistic they feel they are.
The group thing is beyond my grasp of sociology, but I believe it's all to do with herd territory behaviour and mutual associative reinforcement and shit like that. You know, 'in group' stuff. It makes people feel inclined to join the mob in looting in rioting, when they would not dream of doing smashing shop windows and grabbing iPads and training shoes on their own.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Yes, you are an independent and intelligent free-thinker, not afraid to court unpopularity, whereas anybody who disagrees with you is either a sheep or a sad member of rent-a-mob. How stupid of me never to have understood that before.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Well I guess you're right, but when twenty-one people say 'you are a shit-eating spunky fuck weasel cunt who should leave the ship, and so-say all of us'
Except that isn't what happened. No-one actually said that did they? And whatever they said that you are characterising like that will have had a context. It probably isn't helpful to go through post by post one of your old dogpiles, but perhaps it would be worth acknowledging that a) they don't come out of nowhere b) there are not many people on this forum who have an explicit and context-less intention to cause hurt.
I appreciate that they did cause hurt to you (and perhaps I have done in the past also) but that is more likely to have come out of reacting to being angry over something rather than a deliberate intention to hurt.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
...but when twenty-one people say 'you are a shit-eating spunky fuck weasel cunt who should leave the ship, and so-say all of us',
I'd be tempted to laugh at the exuberantly demotic language.
A few weeks ago I was standing behind a carpark when a man standing very near me screamed "Fuck off you fucking blond fucking Surrey slag cunt!" in the general direction of someone else. But it it didn't' change the score.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Zach, I accept that you genuinely mean well, but I'm (not very) afraid that I find it absolutely un-fucking-believable that one, in particular, of the complainers here has never intended to hurt others.
I suppose this is aimed at me, but no matter whom you do mean, this is incredibly passive aggressive.
quote:
I also think that you will usually find, in almost any so-called dogpile, several well-meaning posters trying to give good advice.
That's exactly what makes their advice worthless and their manner of address extremely insensitive. A hell call is the LAST place to try to engage people sensitively.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Does it count as dogpiling* when it happens in styx ?
(* And why do we use this term, we don't even have a clear definition - and I have no idea what the metaphor references ?)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
It strikes me that some people here think I don't realise and appreciate what a complete wanker I can be (and often have been on this website), and that this fact mitigates the bad behaviour of others towards me.
Laughably wrong on the first count and depressingly wrong on the second.
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
...but when twenty-one people say 'you are a shit-eating spunky fuck weasel cunt who should leave the ship, and so-say all of us',
I'd be tempted to laugh at the exuberantly demotic language.
I did.
(It wasn't mine).
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این نیز بگذرد
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Is that not a mitigating factor? If it isn't then you are suggesting that getting annoyed with and swearing at someone who is behaving like a wanker is as bad as doing it arbitrarily and out of the blue.
Added to which I doubt the bad behaviour of others towards you is quite as stark as you imagine it to be.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
These are relatively public boards. If a poster has managed to piss off 30 readers, how many people are allowed to reply? 5? 10? Fuck that.
We have people here who seem to want the right to offend but not the right to be offended back in return,especially when that comes with the added pain of discovering that they are in a minority.
Exactly. If you stand up on a soapbox in the middle of a public square and yell something that pisses off 50 people, you should count yourself lucky if only 20 yell back at you. Also, there are people who have built up asshat-ish posting histories for years and therefore have earned themselves the opprobrium of many shipmates, and they reap what they have sown.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I did.
No harm done then?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Zach, I accept that you genuinely mean well, but I'm (not very) afraid that I find it absolutely un-fucking-believable that one, in particular, of the complainers here has never intended to hurt others.
I suppose this is aimed at me, but no matter whom you do mean, this is incredibly passive aggressive.
Not according to my understanding of passive-aggressive, it isn't. I agree it's worded a little oddly, but that's because I am trying to avoid personal attacks. Let me try again: I accept you have an honest, genuinely benevolent and disinterested concern, even though I don't agree with all the assertions you have made.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I did.
No harm done then?
Oh shit, no, I took ken's post literally. I thought he meant the language daronmedway used, which I quoted, was funny, not that if he received that sort of abuse he would laugh at it- which I now see is of course what he meant. No, I'm a thin-skinned wuss who takes these things personally, and harm was indeed done. Still alive though, and still a Shipmate too. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
And that's quite enough about me on this thread, I'm sure.
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این نیز بگذرد
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Not according to my understanding of passive-aggressive, it isn't. I agree it's worded a little oddly, but that's because I am trying to avoid personal attacks. Let me try again: I accept you have an honest, genuinely benevolent and disinterested concern, even though I don't agree with all the assertions you have made.
Well you're right. Considering it was fairly obvious you meant me, it was closer to just plain aggressive. It is, indeed, exactly the sort of vaguely vicious behavior that passes for "sensitive engagement" in these hell calls.
[ 09. November 2012, 18:13: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
And that's quite enough about me on this thread, I'm sure.
One for the Quotes file? ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
A hell call is the LAST place to try to engage people sensitively.
Yet, there are those who do so successfully--Golden Key (as was mentioned earlier) does it quite well. I can remember seeing it done by Doublethink, QLib, and mdijon to name just a few who are active on this thread. I seem to remember (though the gray cells may be slipping up on this one) that Laura used to do it quite well too.
It takes a certain knack, but there are people who have the gift. Oddly enough, they are the same people who manage to engage people sensitively on the other boards as well.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
I'd always assumed that the term dog piling alluded to the fact that where one dog dumps its stuff others are sure to follow, until there's a great big pile of it. In dogs, I believe, it's a territorial marking thing. But it sort of implies that people do it in a semi-unthinking manner analogous to canine behaviour.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
And that's quite enough about me on this thread, I'm sure.
I'm most impressed at your level of insight. Learnt at the bottom of a dogpile perhaps?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
I'd always assumed that the term dog piling alluded to the fact that where one dog dumps its stuff others are sure to follow, until there's a great big pile of it. In dogs, I believe, it's a territorial marking thing. But it sort of implies that people do it in a semi-unthinking manner analogous to canine behaviour.
Close. If one dog attacks, the rest are far more likely to join in.
Rook said it was just like Girard here, and that's exactly how Girard thought about violence in human society. People join in the destruction of victims without even much thinking about it, just because the mob is doing it.
Gives a lot of insight into "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
[ 09. November 2012, 18:28: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
And that's quite enough about me on this thread, I'm sure.
I'm most impressed at your level of insight. Learnt at the bottom of a dogpile perhaps?
Don't take the bait, Yorick. Just walk away.
[ 09. November 2012, 18:32: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Zach, I accept that you genuinely mean well,
meant you, Zach82 and was not intended to be aggressive quote:
but I'm (not very) afraid that I find it absolutely un-fucking-believable that one, in particular, of the complainers here has never intended to hurt others.
referred to a post by A.N.Other and was intended to be....
Oh, what's the word? Oh yes....
.... assertive
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
referred to a post by A.N.Other and was intended to be....
Oh, what's the word? Oh yes....
.... assertive
Pardon my paranoia, then. Though it would have been assertive to be up front about what you were talking about.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
Hosting
Please do not fight or make personal attacks in the Styx. I appreciate that this is something that people feel strongly about, but if you want to take pot shots at other posters, then call them to Hell. (The irony!)
Hosting
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Let's try a different tack: if there were to be a rule about dogpiling, what would it look like? How would it deal with the following scenarios:- Poster A calls Poster B to Hell. How many people who agree with the call (the "you just beat me to it" brigade) are allowed to post before this is considered a dogpile? Does it vary (and if so, how, in what proportion?) according to whether anyone shows up to support B? Or is it the language of the posters that matters more than the number? So, maybe, three people can be abrasive, but six must be more restrained?
- A Pond War starts. Poster C (a 'merican] calls Poster D (a Brit) to Hell at around 11pm GMT. For the next eight hours, all the posters support C - do the Hosts declare a dogpile, or wait to see what happens when the Brits wake up?
- Poster X calls Poster Y to Hell. Most people take Y's side, but X persists and it starts to get rough - is this a dogpile?
- If a Host expresses an opinion on a thread, and then finds that s/he is in the majority, do they have to tell themselves off for dogpiling?
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Yup.
To me, it's up to people who hate dogpiles to suck it up, be brave, and express your opinions. Suggestion: Show me, don't tell me. Have something more substantial to say than "You guys are vicious" or "This looks like a dogpile."
SO: Hellcaller "Kelly, your constant defense of the use of teabags tells me you are a knuckle dragging sloth who should be institutionalized for the benefit of the human race.Your mother must be ashamed of having given birth to you. Your cat wears combat boots."
(Crazy-ass pile-on ensues. People are obviously trying to top each other.)
(Wrong way)Protester: "You guys are getting out of hand.Don't be so mean."
(Right way)Protester: "OPer, how in the hell exactly does it break your ass if Kelly uses teabags? Does she sneak into your house at night and stuff your loose Earl Grey into tiny little silk sacks? Honestly, your frothing rage about the issue suggests a pitiable level of fragility."
[ 09. November 2012, 19:34: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
You’re being disingenous, QLib, and it’s not helping the discussion. Dogpiling is real enough to those on the receiving end of it, and I think it’s a problem. So do a few others here. You don’t, and some others don't, and that’s fine too.
You will notice that some of those of us who do feel dogpiling is a problem make no suggestion that anything should be done about it except that dogpilers should regulate themselves a bit better. If you don’t think this applies to you, well smashing. Have a nice weekend.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
You might want to check the quotes file, Kelly...
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
You’re being disingenous, QLib, and it’s not helping the discussion. Dogpiling is real enough to those on the receiving end of it, and I think it’s a problem. So do a few others here. You don’t, and some others don't, and that’s fine too.
You will notice that some of those of us who do feel dogpiling is a problem make no suggestion that anything should be done about it except that dogpilers should regulate themselves a bit better. If you don’t think this applies to you, well smashing. Have a nice weekend.
I don't think she's being disingenous at all, I think she's pointing out a real problem-- if we make a no-dogpiling rule, people who are inclined to harass people will figure out a way to use it to harass people.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
You’re being disingenous, QLib,
I'm not being disingenuous - 'what kind of rule would you like to see?' seems to me a perfectly legitimate question, and one designed to promote dialogue rather than stifle it.
quote:
Dogpiling is real enough to those on the receiving end of it
Is there anybody here who hasn't had a pasting in Hell at some point? If dogpiling is objectively real as opposed to being a matter of perception, then it should be possible to reach a working definition, shouldn't it? quote:
... and I think it’s a problem. So do a few others here. You don’t, and some others don't,.
We all agree there's an issue, presumably, otherwise what are we all doing here? quote:
You will notice that some of those of us who do feel dogpiling is a problem make no suggestion that anything should be done about it except that dogpilers should regulate themselves a bit better.
I don't notice any concrete suggestions, but even if there is to be self-regulation, it would be helpful to have some kind of agreement on what the regulations are or could be. I've been trying to self-regulate on dogpiling for yonks - clearly, it hasn't made much difference.
eta X-posted with KA
[ 09. November 2012, 19:59: Message edited by: QLib ]
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Well, to be honest, I think the solution to the problem of dogpiling will need to be cultural. I have seen a huge change in the attitudes of young people towards bullying in school since I was a child. In those days, we had to accept bullying happened and stand up to it individually. Nowadays the pervading cultural value is that it's extremely uncool to bully, and it doesn't happen as much- or so it's my impression. If the Ship could foster a similar culture of the uncoolness of dogpiling, perhaps it would lead to a similar effect on the behaviour of Shipmates.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I notice how you switched the terms dogpiling and bullying there without bothering to make the case that the former was synonymous with the latter.
That aside, if such a change was implemented what then about the behaviour of disruptive and offensive shipmates who no would no longer experience community-level feedback? Would that behaviour then improve or deteriorate?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
It strikes me that the big divide here is between those who believe the community is entitled to en masse voice disapproval, and those who believe that such displays of community muscle are mob rule and/or bullying of maverick individuals who ought to be allowed to express themselves freely.
This seems to me a very fundamental issue of self-image and one's relationship to a community. I can see how those who see themselves in the latter role find the communities response very painful.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
<snip>
... if we make a no-dogpiling rule, people who are inclined to harass people will figure out a way to use it to harass people.
And the first people they harass will be the Hellhosts, for not doing their/our job properly. Thanks a bundle.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
I ask this question with some measure of fear and trepidation, but it is a serious question.
It has been asserted that if someone is called to Hell for bogus reasons, the community will side with the callee and verbally smite the caller.
It has also been made quite clear that the Admins are no longer prepared to tolerate comments such as "This is the lamest Hell call ever" or "I really am not enjoying this spectacle."
So, is there a reasonable way to say "I, for one, do not think this Hell call is reasonable or necessary" without either sounding preachy or risking the wrath of the Hosts and Admins?
I can see the need to not be smarmy and to not interfere in a deserving Hell call, but how does one side with the callee without risking the wrath of the Ship's crew?
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
So, is there a reasonable way to say "I, for one, do not think this Hell call is reasonable or necessary" without either sounding preachy or risking the wrath of the Hosts and Admins?
I can see the need to not be smarmy and to not interfere in a deserving Hell call, but how does one side with the callee without risking the wrath of the Ship's crew?
Well, first off, have you ever actually seen an H/A officially call someone on making those comments? Or are you talking about when Hellhosts make bitchy non-host comments about such comments? Big difference.
Second-- Assuming the latter, even still you are going to get a lot better results from folk in general (IMO) if you post "I, for one, do not think this Hell call is reasonable or necessary because..." Don't assume people know what you mean by 'unreasonable' or 'unnecessary'.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
<snip>
... if we make a no-dogpiling rule, people who are inclined to harass people will figure out a way to use it to harass people.
And the first people they harass will be the Hellhosts, for not doing their/our job properly. Thanks a bundle.
Yes, nobody is mentioning what it feels like to get dogpiled in the Styx. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
It has also been made quite clear that the Admins are no longer prepared to tolerate comments such as "This is the lamest Hell call ever" or "I really am not enjoying this spectacle."
To clarify what you think is clear: people who make a habit of this kind of participation might garner more focused scrutiny from the Crew. Occasional utterances by otherwise Untroublesome¹ Shipmates is unlikely to have much consequence.
quote:
So, is there a reasonable way to say "I, for one, do not think this Hell call is reasonable or necessary" without either sounding preachy or risking the wrath of the Hosts and Admins?
I think your quoted statement looks functional. Cogently-stated supportive arguments for your viewpoint rarely go amiss either.
¹ For the record, you don't qualify.
[CROSSPOST!]
[ 09. November 2012, 21:48: Message edited by: RooK ]
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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