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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Dogpiling in Hell
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I've taken to pming callees advising them to just ignore their calls. The people I've done so with haven't often taken the advice, but sometimes it's difficult to recognize escalation in the moment.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
As somebody who despises the 'lamest Hell call ever' call with all my being*, I would suggest not making comment at all. Clearly the person writing the OP felt it was significant; who cares if it doesn't rise to our levels of what qualifies as a worthy hell topic.
*I can only assume it involves a hidden trauma as a child involving a cat and 3 potatoes.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
The other side of that being, why do we have to enshrine and encourage absolutely every temper tantrum that people feel like pitching.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I'll clarify myself here. (again) I am not for letting mean people off the hook. I am just anti-temper tantrum too. You don't think calling people out for their inability to deal with disputes like healthy grown ups is constructive. Well I don't think temper tantrums are constructive either.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
Clearly the person writing the OP felt it was significant; who cares if it doesn't rise to our levels of what qualifies as a worthy hell topic.
Indeed. there is no Minimum Ire Quotient for Hell. If someone wants to flip out over a hangnail, more power to them.
The "Lame!" shriekers who chime in on hell OPs make me think of a bunch of losers sitting by the side of a ring holding up their olympic judging placards. Only this is a scoring game, and they're just trying to feel important.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I'll clarify myself here. (again) I am not for letting mean people off the hook. I am just anti-temper tantrum too. You don't think calling people out for their inability to deal with disputes like healthy grown ups is constructive. Well I don't think temper tantrums are constructive either.
I find them very constructive. If I couldn't flip my lid on at least a weekly basis, I'd probably have to be committed. It's after the spleen is vented that some real shit can get done.
Just 'cause it doesn't work for you doesn't mean you get to decide if it works for anyone else.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
The "Lame!" shriekers who chime in on hell OPs make me think of a bunch of losers sitting by the side of a ring holding up their olympic judging placards. Only this is a scoring game, and they're just trying to feel important.
That's the difference of perspective here. I think adults who deal with their disputes with temper tantrums are the pathetic people trying to feel important by seeking out others to affirm their tantrums.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
I guess what I don't like is where grown ups make a one line statement identifying that they feel some one else's Hell call is below par.
It dismisses the opening poster.
It says 'Your thoughts and feelings are of no value. You are of no value'.
You know the whole 'opposite of love is disinterest, not hate' type thing.
[cross post]
[ 10. November 2012, 02:11: Message edited by: Patdys ]
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
The "Lame!" shriekers who chime in on hell OPs make me think of a bunch of losers sitting by the side of a ring holding up their olympic judging placards. Only this is a scoring game, and they're just trying to feel important.
That's the difference of perspective here. I think adults who deal with their disputes with temper tantrums are the pathetic people trying to feel important by seeking out others to affirm their tantrums.
where is the affirmation asked for? in the case of the judgers, they are imposing their opinions on something that isn't necessarily about them at all. in the case of the ranters, they may pull the stompstompscream routine, but no one has to listen, read, respond, nothing. they aren't imposing it on anyone other than the hosts. And I, personally, don't mind and even rather enjoy it.
I don't need anyone's affirmations for my rages, they are self-affirming. and therapeutic. and I really don't care if you approve.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
I guess what I don't like is where grown ups make a one line statement identifying that they feel some one else's Hell call is below par.
It dismisses the opening poster.
It says 'Your thoughts and feelings are of no value. You are of no value'.
You know the whole 'opposite of love is disinterest, not hate' type thing.
[cross post]
except that's not really true, is it? if it was disinterest, there's be no response at all. what it really says is "Your thoughts and feelings are of value and I'm jealous of the attention it's getting you, so I'm going to tap dance like crazy over here to get the spotlight on me."
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
I guess what I don't like is where grown ups make a one line statement identifying that they feel some one else's Hell call is below par.
It dismisses the opening poster.
It says 'Your thoughts and feelings are of no value. You are of no value'.
Maybe it's because my first job was at a grocery store, but it's hard for to care what your grievance is when you react like this.
quote:
where is the affirmation asked for? in the case of the judgers, they are imposing their opinions on something that isn't necessarily about them at all. in the case of the ranters, they may pull the stompstompscream routine, but no one has to listen, read, respond, nothing. they aren't imposing it on anyone other than the hosts. And I, personally, don't mind and even rather enjoy it.
So we can only post on hell calls if we agree? You can't see how that is actually fostering temper tantrums? Real life has consequences for temper tantrums, which is why they don't work in real life.
If you don't want people to judge you for what your tantrums, don't post them. It's only the same standard applied to everything else here.
quote:
I don't need anyone's affirmations for my rages, they are self-affirming. and therapeutic. and I really don't care if you approve.
Then why post them in hell so everyone can see them?
[ 10. November 2012, 02:24: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Jeeze that's alotta typos. Sorry for my poor proof reading, dear lovelies.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
I guess what I don't like is where grown ups make a one line statement identifying that they feel some one else's Hell call is below par.
It dismisses the opening poster.
It says 'Your thoughts and feelings are of no value. You are of no value'.
You know the whole 'opposite of love is disinterest, not hate' type thing.
[cross post]
except that's not really true, is it? if it was disinterest, there's be no response at all. what it really says is "Your thoughts and feelings are of value and I'm jealous of the attention it's getting you, so I'm going to tap dance like crazy over here to get the spotlight on me."
Yes Ma'am. At a deeper level it does. Every time we post, it is to an audience. So, this is a way of comparatively boosting our audience share at anothers expense I guess.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Oh brother, the "You're just making the thread about yourself" line. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
So we can only post on hell calls if we agree?
Agree? certainly not. challenge the content? if you have something to challenge, go for it. the only thing better than a rant is a good scrap. Judging the value of the content? get a life.
quote:
You can't see how that is actually fostering temper tantrums? Real life has consequences for temper tantrums, which is why they don't work in real life.
the beauty of the Ship is that we have a safe place for that. It is very unlike "real life" as you put it. Hooray for us. And who cares if it fosters temper tantrums? Hell, I think it's way healthier than pretending all is hunky-dory until one day you snap and beat your boss's car up with a baseball bat.
quote:
If you don't want people to judge you for what your tantrums, don't post them. It's only the same standard applied to everything else here.
personally, I don't give a shit. It reflects oh so much on the judger and says nothing about me. hold up your little placards, it's like holding up a giant sign saying "lookit me! lookit me!"
quote:
quote:
I don't need anyone's affirmations for my rages, they are self-affirming. and therapeutic. and I really don't care if you approve.
Then why post them in hell so everyone can see them?
Actually, for the same reason you'd post in All Saints. 2 sides of the same coin. We're a social animal. it just feels better to share our joys, sorrows, and frustrations with others. It's not affirmation, just getting it out there. I've heard people tell others to "scream into your pillow" when they're upset. I'm here to tell you that screaming into your pillow is a cop out. stand on the roof and let it howl.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
Zach, There are multiple threads on this boat that don't interest me.
I don't get tat, I rarely drink gin and I have studied just enough of the bible to realise I know bugger all.
So I choose not to participate.
Why is a hell thread any different?
If you have no interest in the topic, or feel it is of no value to you, simply pass it by.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
no one has to listen, read, respond, nothing. they aren't imposing it on anyone other than the hosts.
Why this is so hard for some folks to absorb I will never understand.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Oh brother, the "You're just making the thread about yourself" line.
Zach, any time we post we're drawing the attention over to ourselves, one way or another. It's up to us how we use that. if it's a judgy little "wow, this sucks" then that attention grab is pretty pointless and makes the poster look like an attention whore with nothing useful to contribute.
But if we post something that contributes to the discussion or rant or whatever, we're still grabbing a moment of the spotlight but we're actually contributing content - perhaps furthering the discussion, offering another POV, commiserating, disputing the premise, whatever. it's about giving to the conversation, rather than taking.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Y'know why this "You're making this thread about you" rubbish needs to stop? Because every single time we post in every single thread we are posting what we think and feel. Every single thread is, to a certain extent, about the people involved. Every single conversation is about the people who are talking.
Never ONCE have I see that line applied to someone who barges into a thread to talk about their personal problems. It has ALWAYS been in situations where people just don't feel like talking to the person involved.
quote:
Agree? certainly not. challenge the content? if you have something to challenge, go for it. the only thing better than a rant is a good scrap. Judging the value of the content? get a life.
Double standard still. You affirm every single tantrum on any old whim, but contempt for those tantrums have to be solid and reasonable?
quote:
the beauty of the Ship is that we have a safe place for that.
Ah, we should put that in the ship description. "Why get a blog when you can come to the ship to scream like a little girl because someone said something kinda mean to you the other day?"
quote:
Why is a hell thread any different?
If you have no interest in the topic, or feel it is of no value to you, simply pass it by.
Oh, I don't say hell calls are lame because I lack interest. I say they are lame because I think most of them could have been easily gotten over like a grown up.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Oh, I don't say hell calls are lame because I lack interest. I say they are lame because I think most of them could have been easily gotten over like a grown up.
So what? If they bother you so much, why do you even read them? If you're so grown up, move on!
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Oh, I don't say hell calls are lame because I lack interest. I say they are lame because I think most of them could have been easily gotten over like a grown up.
Your last sentence I like. It engages the poster. It is not dismissive of their thoughts or existence. Here you are engaging with them in disagreement. They then have the right to rebuttal. I see a big difference.
I will bow out of this tangent here, but will read and digest any further replies.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
So what? If they bother you so much, why do you even read them? If you're so grown up, move on!
"Temper tantrums are ridiculous" is not an indictment of getting angry, it's about overreacting to minor things. This objection would only apply if one went far past "Grow up" to a 4 paragraph essay on how pointless and uninteresting it all was.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Agree? certainly not. challenge the content? if you have something to challenge, go for it. the only thing better than a rant is a good scrap. Judging the value of the content? get a life.
Double standard still. You affirm every single tantrum on any old whim, but contempt for those tantrums have to be solid and reasonable?
never once did I say it has to be solid and responsible - just that if it isn't, you'll look like a douche. fine with me. look like a douche if that's what you want. I'm just saying that it says volumes about you and nothing about the OPer.
quote:
quote:
the beauty of the Ship is that we have a safe place for that.
Ah, we should put that in the ship description. "Why get a blog when you can come to the ship to scream like a little girl because someone said something kinda mean to you the other day?"
If you like. So what? it ain't up to you.
quote:
quote:
Why is a hell thread any different?
If you have no interest in the topic, or feel it is of no value to you, simply pass it by.
Oh, I don't say hell calls are lame because I lack interest. I say they are lame because I think most of them could have been easily gotten over like a grown up.
so yay, don't read 'em.
There is a whole lot on this ship that makes my eyes cross. I don't jump down in Eccles and shout, "who gives a damn what color socks you wear during Epiphany?" It ain't my thing, so I butt the fuck out. I respect that other people do care, and I leave them to it. Hell, every time I accidentally click on the Mornington Crescent thread I begin to wonder if it's a bunch of loons speaking in code. Double that for any mention of cricket. it ain't my bag. I just don't have two cares to rub together about it. so I brace myself, flex my clicker finger, exhale, and move on.
You think people who find a safe and healthy way to express anger, rage, bitterness, and all those other things we're supposed to pretend real adults don't feel are wrong? Good for you. We disagree. It's been known to happen before, disagreement. I'm okay with it. I think you're wrong, you think I'm wrong, and the sun will still come up in Barrow sometime in January. Whoopty-do.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Oh, I don't say hell calls are lame because I lack interest. I say they are lame because I think most of them could have been easily gotten over like a grown up.
So what? If they bother you so much, why do you even read them? If you're so grown up, move on!
It's that whole residue of "Hell is a proving ground!" I was talking about.
It's not. Some people might still think it is, but it's not. If the vibe in there is getting extra ugly, detox from it for a while. Ain't no shame.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
"Temper tantrums are ridiculous" is not an indictment of getting angry, it's about overreacting to minor things. This objection would only apply if one went far past "Grow up" to a 4 paragraph essay on how pointless and uninteresting it all was.
you know what, though? One person's minor is another person's last straw. Years ago, when I first was venturing into Hell, one of our californians (Kenwritz or RuthW, I believe) posted a solid vent about protesters blocking traffic on the freeway. I, cocksure in my world of no traffic problems, belittled their frustration and did a high and mighty rant about the first amendment and how beautiful it is to see people exercising their right to free speech. They both chewed my ass, and rightly so. What the fuck do I know about it? Apparently, traffic woes in SoCal are a much bigger deal than I imagined. Okay, fair enough.
The thing is, we're all slogging through this world and a lot of it sucks. to me, a traffic clog is a minor pain in the ass. that's because I actually get into one maybe once every 5 or 6 years. to someone who deals with it perhaps daily, it's a huge problem.
Hell, I see rants and whinges all the time on the ship that in my world would be laughable. but the flip side is that I would probably have a good solid meltdown if a political pollster called my house. we are a diverse people from all walks of life and damn near all continents. If I lose my shit one day because, say, some asswipe decidsd to come onto my property to sell something, it might look pretty lame to those of you who see that stuff a lot. Here, it's an invasion of privacy and RUDE. so suck it up and let me vent and I won't ridicule someone else who has a hissy over a 3 hour power outage.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Ain't no shame.
this this this thisthis THIS!
No shame, man. we all need to walk away sometimes. me too. me a lot, actually; I have a hair trigger on this temper of mine. I often find that if I'm reading something of someone else's and I feel my back all hunch up and I start biting my lower lip and OMG I HAVE TO FIX THEM! I ask myself, hey, is this my business at all? can my response wait an hour, a day, a year? If I go make the coffee and walk the dogs and come back, will someone more level headed have said it better?
a good portion of the time, the answer is yes. walk away. let it go. the world will not combust and you're not responsible for fixing other people's ailments.
Trust the hosts and admins to keep any errant hell threads from getting out of control and doing a hostile takeover of the UN. the rest - let it go.
ETA - I just realized this might appear to be pointed at Zach - it's not. It's meant to be general.
[ 10. November 2012, 03:19: Message edited by: comet ]
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
If I go make the coffee and walk the dogs and come back, will someone more level headed have said it better?
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Heh. YMMV. Coffee actually makes me kind of dangerous when I hit the boards.
"Know Thyself" is a good precept, as you say.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
"Temper tantrums are ridiculous" is not an indictment of getting angry, it's about overreacting to minor things.
I don't know how we decide which things are minor. There isn't any universal scale for it.
It's not to the point whether someone else would get cranky in the same situation. Freedom of expression, whatever it means, most certainly means that people will react to situations differently, and have different things that press their buttons.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
no one has to listen, read, respond, nothing. they aren't imposing it on anyone other than the hosts.
Why this is so hard for some folks to absorb I will never understand.
If they don't want to understand, they won't understand. Some folks take pride in personal obtuseness.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
As comet says, how do you know what makes someone overreact on a thread? You don't. Unless they say what has made them lose the plot. The way Hell goes, I've been part of threads when the criticism has been for the person for being such a wuss. Going back to me, and knowing this is the Styx where personal attacks are disallowed, how would a Hell thread starting:
"How dare you dismiss my experiences and knowledge of the time without even bothering to read it because it doesn't touch your self-importance. I'm raging here because I was fucking 13 when I was an inpatient at Stoke Mandeville in the 1970s and I fucking well know what it was like, you moronic imbecile."
have gone? And how many people would have criticised for revealing personal information? And how many would have told me not to hang my dirty washing out to dry on the internet?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I've taken to pming callees advising them to just ignore their calls. The people I've done so with haven't often taken the advice, but sometimes it's difficult to recognize escalation in the moment.
A PM from someone who hasn't been involved in the discussion that sparked the disagreement offering that sort of advice may have the opposite effect to the one you're hoping for. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Tubbs
[ 10. November 2012, 08:20: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
For me, it's simply the difference between saying "this is lame" and "I think this is lame because XYZ". The former contributes nothing except making one look like a dismissive asshole. The latter actually contributes to the discussion.
Same goes in purg. A one-sentence dismissal or derision of someone else's point of view with no reasoning given is of no benefit to anyone.
What is incredibly apparent to me might not be so evident to everyone else. That might be a flaw in them; it might be a flaw in me. Only by discussing and listening can we ever find out which it is.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
The answer is simple, dog-pile any dogpilers. That'l teach 'em.
Fly Safe, Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Agree? certainly not. challenge the content? if you have something to challenge, go for it. the only thing better than a rant is a good scrap. Judging the value of the content? get a life.
Exactly. It isn't that I think you have to enshrine or encourage any hell call, you simply need to have something worth saying. If your point is that the call is an example of overwrought emotion over Kelly's teabags then explain why. If your point is that the callee had a point and ought to be heard explain why. If your point is that there is no substance to the call except a string of expletives then say that.
But just "lame" and ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif) communicate to me that you wanted an entertaining bit of invective. Which I think we're all agreed isn't what should be aimed for.
If your point is that hell calls are always counter-productive, then saying that on each hell thread without specifics to that call would be rather tedious after a while, but at least it would communicate more of your mindset than "lame" would.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think that a shipmate who always showed up on hell calls to express themselves in the strongest invective irrespective of the issue would be a cause for concern. I can't say I can think of anyone just now but perhaps there are some who fit that posting pattern.
I recall one or two from the past. Shipmates who've been here longer can probably remember more. On the whole, though, there were usually people perfectly willing to call them on their behaviour--not for every single incident, but often enough that someone who had been here a while would know that they had been reviled by someone who was incorrigibly bitter and taken seriously by no one. It probably wasn't particularly healthy for the Boards, and the Admins tended to watch very closely after a while and tended to tighten the leash (at least, it seemed that way observing from the outside).
I tend to keep an eye on the Hell threads, but I can't really think of anyone who is quite like that now.
I wonder if some of the communal angst about the subject comes from that time. Because hell wasn't just the containment area it is supposed to be; two things I remember being expressed over and over again were along the lines of "this is the place where we purge the Ship of the weak and unworthy" and "This is where the Alphas hang, if you don't like it, go play on one of those wimpy boards, like [insert name of any other board on the site.]" I pretty much stayed out of Hell for a couple years, just because that vibe was definitely not something I wanted to be a part of.
I certainly think things got very different pretty quickly once that dynamic was broken up-- kudos to those acting H&A's who took it on-- but maybe vestiges of the problems that arose from that dynamic still exist.
I think this is bang on. I certainly recognise this dynamic and could, with a little persuasion, be convinced that it's on the wane. I don't specifically remember the H and As breaking it up but that could be because I'm not very observant and they are very good at what they do.
However, I think a separate but related dynamic still exists which, while being less toxic, is still problematic. Upthread I called this dynamic "scientological" because I think the practice of mass verbal of abuse of certain shipmates bears similarities (on a small scale) to the Ethical Punishment of Suppressive Persons within Scientology.
These comparisons are, of course, hyperbolic. I don't think for a moment that this is in any sense official ship policy or some kind of conspiracy. I'm just offering up a somewhat playful comparison between the abusive dog-piling of longstanding shipmates branded as "shit-eating trolls" by other shipmates and the aggressive Ethical Punishment of people whom the PTB in Scientology consider to "possess a distinct set of characteristics and mental attitudes that cause him to suppress other people in his vicinity" (i.e. people who don't toe the cult party line).
[ 10. November 2012, 14:41: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
I grow weary of this. The repetition of viewpoints is no longer fruitful.
Does anyone have any new to add, with respect to actual Ship's business? And, for the record, vague preferences for unenforceable modification to human nature don't qualify.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I often find that if I'm reading something of someone else's and I feel my back all hunch up and I start biting my lower lip and OMG I HAVE TO FIX THEM!
Yes, sometimes duty calls.
(The protesters on the freeway rant was mine! And I too have learned a lot about other parts of the world by reading about the little things that make people lose their shit.)
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Daron, it really angers me when you use something I said to compare Ship dynamics to Scientology. That is a highly inflammatory insinuation that I would never make. Dig up your own examples to make that case. I do not agree with you.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
My first thought was that "hyperbolic" is so often a euphemism for "untrue accusation that I don't care to support".
But actually I think that for anyone who sees themselves as almost certainly in the right and unfairly put-upon by the community, to have a crowd of posters all telling them that they are wrong must feel similar to being the sane person that somehow got themselves into a scientology meeting. When the crowd of wronger-than-wrong posters don't seem to be able to absorb their brief explanation of affairs, and instead become a more annoyed and emotional, then clearly we do have a scenario close to a cultish oppression of the individual.
The problem is that the difference between the scientology scenario and the community behaving in a predictable way towards an offensive and dismissive poster is very observer dependent.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Does anyone have any new to add, with respect to actual Ship's business?
Not really except it seems to me that the bad old days in Hell which Ms Alves insists we must all get over were when you and Sarky Cow were primarily setting the tone.
Perhaps a group shaming is in order.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I realise that this is probably a lost cause, but the research I referenced was on reintergrative shaming. Which seems to have been variously misunderstood on this thread as something akin to the stocks, or standing someone in their underpants in the town square and decrying their moral character.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Well to be fair, if you actually managed to catch Rook and get his trousers off - I would consider decrying his moral character. If only in homage to your fortitude.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I don't know what you meant but I meant standing someone in their underpants in the town square and decrying their moral character.
For reference, see Genesis 2:25.
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
(Forgot to add a link for online Bible lookup, and missed the edit window.)
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Isn't what's being said that Hell is effective where it's used to point out issues on the Ship (or rant about external issues) - where it's re-integrative. So posts saying "You are being a total pain on that thread because ..." and someone else saying "And over here I find this unacceptable because ...", which could feel like a dogpile, but is attacking the Ship based issues.
But when Shipmates use Hell to humiliate and attack, using information from elsewhere on the Ship, personal things such as losing jobs or family breakdown and use that to attack on a Hell thread, that's counter-productive.
And it's that use of personal information as a bludgeon that I was trying to highlight above.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Daron, it really angers me when you use something I said to compare Ship dynamics to Scientology. That is a highly inflammatory insinuation that I would never make. Dig up your own examples to make that case. I do not agree with you.
Excuse me Kelly, I said the dynamic I perceive was separate but related precisely in order avoid such misunderstandings. Notwithstanding, I apologise for implicating you in what I said.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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