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Source: (consider it) Thread: Rook and Hell
Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
And if brackenrigg had showed up after a long hiatus specifically to snipe with that phrase, IMO I think the ban was justified.

Nope, not at all. Immediately reinstating the prohibition of that word for that poster, if he was a major "problem user" before, I can see that. But an instant ban over just this is plain ridiculous. Particularly so, if he or she came back after a long hiatus.
So when is a final warning not a final warning?

--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
So when is a final warning not a final warning?

When you have to drag up a hostly post that nobody but you still remembers? When you have to remind people of past problems in order to justify your actions?

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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So simply the passage of time? Could you not see how that might be abused by an ill-disposed person?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
So when is a final warning not a final warning?

When you have to drag up a hostly post that nobody but you still remembers? When you have to remind people of past problems in order to justify your actions?
The shipmate who matters is the one who got the final warning and I'd say they remember well as it was an oft done offense. The rest of us get the reminder or explanation in the admin post of the banning.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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I have to add, that while I don't like the "Jew on a stick" comment, I fail to see what the fuss is about. As others have stated, Rook isn't a Christian and he was responding in a thread about things we humans do to animals and what is or isn't moral. Eating animals was brought up and so was eating humans. Christianity was brought up as the arbiter of whatever morality position many posters made and Rook's offensive comment was on point for the discussion and is pretty much what I've heard many non Christians point out as what they consider offensive about Christianity: our references to eating the body and blood of Christ.

I've seen many posters on this site make insulting comments about other religions or mock those of other religions who get bent out of shape (not just riot or kill) about blasphemy of their religion, yet I'm seeing real hysteria here due to perceived blasphemy. Frankly, as a Christian I've seen worse on other sites and heard worse IRL. We've been told to expect it so I really don't see the why the hysteria. I personally don't get upset about it as I've been in countries where they kill you for your faith, not insult you.

--------------------
"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged
Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
So when is a final warning not a final warning?

When you have to drag up a hostly post that nobody but you still remembers?
I can assure you that I wasn't the only person who remembered.
quote:
When you have to remind people of past problems in order to justify your actions?
That's normal practice. We always post a "you've been warned about this before" type statement. Of course, we could just ban/suspend people without giving any reason if you prefer.

--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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Erin, was perfectly capable of playing the harsh, capricious and unforgiving Admin, RooK is naught but her successor, re-imagining the role. I t has always been the culture of the Ship, it has some draw back and detractors but it has some benefits too.

Some people prefer their piranhas neutered, me I like a wholesome set of teeth and a lack of knowledge on when the last meal was consumed. Makes me think a bit more carefully before I dip a toe in.

Fly Safe, Pyx_e

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It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
So simply the passage of time? Could you not see how that might be abused by an ill-disposed person?

Obviously. And? Since when do we design justice systems so that all abuse is perfectly avoided? The abuse can happen precisely because good justice must have "give" designed into it. What is being abused is the humaneness of the system, and that is a cost well worth paying.

And yes, the passage of time is considered important in all reasonable justice systems. There are statutes of limitation, a life sentence will get reviewed after a decade or two, etc.

Anyhow, all we are talking about here is one extra post, namely one additional warning that the prohibition remains in effect and will be enforced, in the space of two years.

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I can assure you that I wasn't the only person who remembered.

How depressing. Do you people keep grudge lists, or something? Anyway, given that you did in fact remember (and looked up the relevant post on the grudge list, or spent time googling it anew), the question remains what was the right thing to do with such ancient matters.

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
That's normal practice. We always post a "you've been warned about this before" type statement. Of course, we could just ban/suspend people without giving any reason if you prefer.

I'm pretty sure that you are missing the point on purpose. Announcing the reasoning behind your decision is one thing, having to remind the community of what all this is even about is quite another. If you had banned Brackenrigg in 2010 without explaining your reasoning, then plenty of Shipmates could have filled in the detail of what was happening and why. In 2012, that's hardly the case any longer.

Seriously, who and what would have been hurt by doing exactly that same post, but simply reminding Brackenrigg of what was said back in 2010 rather than immediately executing it?

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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Obviously invisible. Being ignored makes for such warm and cuddly feelings.

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Lyda*Rose - when I linked the posting history I had hoped you'd have looked at the posts. Of the three made recently there was the one I linked to in Hell and this gem in Purgatory. If you look back through that hosting history you'll see a lot more like that.

Two out of three recent posts were sexist.

(and I did add you to the Offenderati thread in Hell)

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Do you people keep grudge lists, or something?


Yes. Got a problem with that?

quote:
Anyway, given that you did in fact remember (and looked up the relevant post on the grudge list, or spent time googling it anew),
It wasn't difficult to find - he had such a low post count I simply had to click on the recent posts link to find it. All this poster ever did was to wander in every few months or so, make some childish one-liner about "women dressed a priests pretending to celebrate the Mass" and disappear again.

quote:
the question remains what was the right thing to do with such ancient matters.

As he had been warned on more than one occasion, I believe the correct course of action was taken.
quote:
I'm pretty sure that you are missing the point on purpose. Announcing the reasoning behind your decision is one thing, having to remind the community of what all this is even about is quite another.
I really don't understand your point. Announcing the reasoning and "reminding the community" as you put it are the same thing. This is a public bulletin board which means that posts are public and can be seen by everyone.

quote:
If you had banned Brackenrigg in 2010 without explaining your reasoning, then plenty of Shipmates could have filled in the detail of what was happening and why.

But we don't do things that way and never have.
quote:

Seriously, who and what would have been hurt by doing exactly that same post, but simply reminding Brackenrigg of what was said back in 2010 rather than immediately executing it?

Seriously, why are you getting so worked up about the banning of someone who made no useful contribution to these boards whatsoever?

Spike
SoF Admin

--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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Ingo,

It seems rather clear to me that the guy just came sailing back in with his usual schtick and assumed people would have forgotten.

You seek to have transgressors reminded of why their behavior is bad when it has been a while since they misbehaved.

I see your point if it is a poster who has transgressed Rule X, been warned, behaved and then stepped over the line again. I would be all for another warning at that point. Somehow, I suspect most admins would take the same attitude.

To me, the case of the poster who is warned, hides (virtually) out and then comes back to try the same thing all over again justifies whatever sanction without further warning.

Where you may have a point is the community. Should there have been a warning for the sake of the community. It is a point, but the reasoning behind the point seems to have been more than satisfied by the lengthy discussion on the subject here in the Styx. Everybody and their cousin knows about the issue now.

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Since when do we design justice systems so that all abuse is perfectly avoided? The abuse can happen precisely because good justice must have "give" designed into it. What is being abused is the humaneness of the system, and that is a cost well worth paying.

Insofar as the running of a bulletin board by a diverse, shifting (and fairly motley) population of random volunteers can be dignified as a 'justice system', I think the one we have is fit for purpose. 'Designed' also strikes me as an over-description of the consensual-ish striving to be reasonably fair, consistent, attentive and patient that is the everyday joy of H&Aing.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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I think Ingob is hoping for something a little more Inquisitorial.

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It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
I've seen many posters on this site make insulting comments about other religions or mock those of other religions who get bent out of shape (not just riot or kill) about blasphemy of their religion, yet I'm seeing real hysteria here due to perceived blasphemy.

If you honestly believe this, I submit you have never seen real hysteria. There is not a single person posting about this who is acting hysterically.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
I've seen many posters on this site make insulting comments about other religions or mock those of other religions who get bent out of shape (not just riot or kill) about blasphemy of their religion, yet I'm seeing real hysteria here due to perceived blasphemy.

If you honestly believe this, I submit you have never seen real hysteria. There is not a single person posting about this who is acting hysterically.
I'd say 3 threads going where many people are calling for the head of Rook on the proverbial platter of this site qualifies as hysteria. Rook made a comment in line with the discussion using language offensive to Christians and instead of answering the point he was trying to make the response was rage and demanding he be punished. We've even had comments claiming Rook hates everyone here, isn't really a part of the community and exhibits psychopathic behavior. If all of that isn't hysteria I don't know what is. I haven't seen the same rage level for comments about the Prophet Muhammad being a demon or a pedophile - no matter who makes it - or derogatory comments I've seen made towards atheists or those with other religions.

--------------------
"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged
Inger
Shipmate
# 15285

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I'm surprised people don't see the difference between using 'priestess' and 'bishopess'. The former is an existing word, that can surely be used with perfect propriety in the right context (pagan/heathen). When used in connection with the ordination of women in a Christian context, it's most likely used as a sexist put-down, and merits a warning.

To come back after even two years and deliberately use an invented word like 'bishopess' seems to me to be going out of one's way to be sexist and to be flouting a previous warning.

Posts: 332 | From: Newcastle, UK | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
I'd say 3 threads going where many people are calling for the head of Rook on the proverbial platter of this site qualifies as hysteria.

Then it is as sure as tomorrow's sunrise that you have never seen true hysteria.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Inger:
I'm surprised people don't see the difference between using 'priestess' and 'bishopess'. The former is an existing word, that can surely be used with perfect propriety in the right context (pagan/heathen). When used in connection with the ordination of women in a Christian context, it's most likely used as a sexist put-down, and merits a warning.

To come back after even two years and deliberately use an invented word like 'bishopess' seems to me to be going out of one's way to be sexist and to be flouting a previous warning.

Exactly. If he had two years of pristine posting history, engaging on a variety of subjects in a thoughtful, invested way, he might have gotten one more warning. He just sailed in out of nowhere to make a crack.

And I have nowhere built up anywhere near the radar Louise has, but if she says this is a typical tactic, I tend to believe her.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
I'd say 3 threads going where many people are calling for the head of Rook on the proverbial platter of this site qualifies as hysteria.

Then it is as sure as tomorrow's sunrise that you have never seen true hysteria.
Considering the countries I've been in, this doesn't measure up as anything except typical American outburst making a giant mountain out of a molehill, but by most standards around here it doesn't usually get as hysterical with character assassination, definitions of mental illness and a statement that Rook doesn't belong in the community because of how he put one statement, even though he has spent years working towards making this a safe community where people can come and have intelligent discussions, and demands that he be disciplined or even banned. Hell is a site specific board where offensive is done regularly to groups of one kind or another and to drive home points the poster wants to make. Had people left it at "that was offensive to me" or even asked the other admins to look into it or had the guts to do a hell call without the hysteria attached to it I wouldn't have bothered commenting.

[ 02. December 2012, 17:30: Message edited by: Niteowl ]

--------------------
"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Yes. Got a problem with that?

If it is to keep things straight in busy times and to communicate with other H&As, no. If it is to keep grudges alive long after memories have faded, yes. Or to put it differently, entries on grudge lists should be wiped after a certain time. That's for example how the UK and German point system for driving offences works, see here. And yes, I'm sure both governments are well aware that some asshole drivers will "game the system" then. Yet they still think it is a good idea to wipe points off after a time, and so do I.

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
All this poster ever did was to wander in every few months or so, make some childish one-liner about "women dressed a priests pretending to celebrate the Mass" and disappear again.

That is not the case, at least not since he or she was warned off. But I don't actually care much about Brackenrigg. I think there's a line between maintaining standards, asserting one's authority, following through, giving everybody their due etc. and being vindictive. And if planking is on that line, then one should err on the side of being slack.

Two years of no problems should have been enough for you to say "remember, we warned you, we still mean it" and then put that finger back on the eject trigger. Instead of you having had your finger on the eject trigger all the time and then immediately pressing it. In my opinion.

That's not about what Brackenrigg is like, that's about what you are like.

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I really don't understand your point.

My point was about context. Say you had banned Brackenrigg back then. The community's reaction to that would have come from what was present to people's minds. Say you would have made a post reminding Brackenrigg of the prohibition now. Then again what was going on would have been present to people's mind. And if he or she then had reoffended in the near future, you certainly wouldn't have heard a peep about banning Brackenrigg from me. (In spite of the fact that I find tabooing "p...ess" rather questionable.) But as it was, this was straight "WTF" territory...

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Seriously, why are you getting so worked up about the banning of someone who made no useful contribution to these boards whatsoever?

Oh, I tend to get upset about lots of things. Like admins calling all contributions of a Shipmate useless. But maybe it would help if you could explain how for example Brackenrigg's second to last post was useless. Or for that matter even his last post, if we assume for a moment that he had adopted the nautically correct "female bishop" instead of the unspeakable "b...ess".

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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Thank you for your expert and informed opinion. We will take it on board.

--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
He just sailed in out of nowhere to make a crack.

That is not true.

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Thank you for your expert and informed opinion. We will take it on board.

You are welcome. I trust that you will keep us informed about your reconsideration of the case and the ramifications for general policy.

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I trust that you will keep us informed about your reconsideration of the case and the ramifications for general policy.

Like I say, I think you confuse this place with the European Court of Human Rights.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I trust that you will keep us informed about your reconsideration of the case and the ramifications for general policy.

I realize that this is mostly just you being snarky within the remit of the letter of the Commandments. But, I wonder, do you see how this is emblematic of your fundamental inability to grok this discussion board?
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
But, I wonder, do you see how this is emblematic of your fundamental inability to grok this discussion board?

I don't intend to "grok" this discussion board, in either the original Heinlein or the derived hacker sense.

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I don't intend to "grok" this discussion board

Doesn't that make your contributions on every single Styx thread kind of pointless?
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Doesn't that make your contributions on every single Styx thread kind of pointless?

Was it the same pill that made you hallucinate that I am on every single Styx thread which also made you think that one has to live in quasi-religious intuitive unity with Styx-ness in order to post in Styx? Honestly, I think you are being a bit of a Philip-K-Dick-head at the moment... Can't really think of why you are bending the Matrix this way, unless you are in desperate need of a whipping boy.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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Forgive the hyperbole. Nevertheless, you are one of the most common participants in Styx threads regarding policy. Given your stated intention to never have a particularly clear understanding of the boards, is it not worthwhile to question your efforts in this realm?

Not to imply that you can't participate in any thread you like. I am perhaps one of the few that look forward to your perspective. I imagine that you're kind of like one of those parishioners who know that they can't hold a tune and sing all the more lustily because of it. I'm just curious about the underlying motivations.

Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Boys, could you go make sweet, sweet love on the Hell thread you are both playing around on anyway and leave this thread for policy issues?

Kelly Alves
Admin

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
And yes, the passage of time is considered important in all reasonable justice systems. There are statutes of limitation, a life sentence will get reviewed after a decade or two, etc.

Anyhow, all we are talking about here is one extra post, namely one additional warning that the prohibition remains in effect and will be enforced, in the space of two years.

Ingo, are you familiar with the concept of a suspended sentence?

One infraction during the period of suspension is all it takes. So 'real world' justice recognises the very concept you seem upset about.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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<cross-post with Kelly, will do...>

quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Given your stated intention to never have a particularly clear understanding of the boards, is it not worthwhile to question your efforts in this realm?

First, look up what "to grok" actually means. And not in the OED. Second, I work with what is there. Which is this.

quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
I am perhaps one of the few that look forward to your perspective.

I know. And I have not forgotten either that you've put that into practice. Which makes it all the more mysterious why the hell you are trying so hard to pick a fight with me now. Seriously, what gives? I didn't bitch about your jew-on-a-stick remark. I don't tear up about your latest community-affirming post in Hell either. Different ballgame, OK?

quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
I'm just curious about the underlying motivations.

World domination, Pinky.

[ 03. December 2012, 01:42: Message edited by: IngoB ]

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Boys, could you go make sweet, sweet love on the Hell thread you are both playing around on anyway and leave this thread for policy issues?

Kelly Alves
Admin

I'll accept two weeks for the tangent just to say I bet you still giggle every time you re-read your post. The power and the poke. C'mon Kelly, admit it. [Big Grin]

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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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...

It has to be against board policy to plant a hidden webcam in an Admin's room.

(Now knock it off --K.A)

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Beeswax Altar: Thanks for the correction to my obviously faulty memory. It's all coming back to me now ...
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867

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Sorry to come late to the party but to bring the focus back to the OP.

The 'dead-jew-on-a stick' thing doesn't bother me on the grounds of blasphemy, or bad taste. The jarring nature of it is the use of ethnicity in an insult. 'Stupid man' is okay but 'stupid black' is not. 'Dead-'god'/man-on-a-stick' is merely rude, 'dead-jew....' provides the image with most of its shock factor. Yet the fact that Jesus is a Jew is entirely immaterial to the insult. The word 'Jew' brings a jarring nature to the insult and undertones of anti-semitism to the image.

For what it's worth, that's my take on the matter. I don't think Rook was intending to be anti-semitic but best now to stop using the image.

Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
The jarring nature of it is the use of ethnicity in an insult.

I've always seen it as an additional poke at the more precious "Christianity is the only true religion" folk by pointing out that Jesus Himself was actually a member of a different religion.

"Man on a stick" wouldn't work as well for that reason.

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
[I've always seen it as an additional poke at the more precious "Christianity is the only true religion" folk by pointing out that Jesus Himself was actually a member of a different religion.

"Man on a stick" wouldn't work as well for that reason.

Well, that's a subtle way of seeing it. But it's worth pointing out that the phrase 'dead jew' is itself loaded with undertones. In a recent French twitter campaign with the hashtag 'a good Jew', holocaust images were posted alongside the 'good Jew'. The phrase 'a good Jew is a dead Jew' frequently comes up in anti-semitic incidents.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
[I've always seen it as an additional poke at the more precious "Christianity is the only true religion" folk by pointing out that Jesus Himself was actually a member of a different religion.

"Man on a stick" wouldn't work as well for that reason.

Well, that's a subtle way of seeing it. But it's worth pointing out that the phrase 'dead jew' is itself loaded with undertones. In a recent French twitter campaign with the hashtag 'a good Jew', holocaust images were posted alongside the 'good Jew'. The phrase 'a good Jew is a dead Jew' frequently comes up in anti-semitic incidents.
It may bring up anti-Semitic issues for some, but as an insult to Christianity it's pretty much lessened without the "dead Jew" reference. It's pretty obvious it's aim is to offend Christians, not be anti-Semitic. Consulted friends who are Jewish and they got the point. One of them will be using it himself a he loves to insult Christians.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged
Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867

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quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
It's pretty obvious it's aim is to offend Christians, not be anti-Semitic. Consulted friends who are Jewish and they got the point. One of them will be using it himself a he loves to insult Christians.

If the phrase has any merit at all it's probably best used by people who are Jewish.

A google search on the phrase turns up some pretty unsavoury websites including the Vanguard News Network. Whatever the origins and intentions behind it, it's safe to say it is also employed by anti-semites.

Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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Purely incidental, but watching an episode on 'Challenge' last night of '8 out of 10 Cats', one of the comedians made exactly the same crack referring to Jesus as 'dead Jew on a stick'.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
It's pretty obvious it's aim is to offend Christians, not be anti-Semitic. Consulted friends who are Jewish and they got the point. One of them will be using it himself a he loves to insult Christians.

If the phrase has any merit at all it's probably best used by people who are Jewish.

A google search on the phrase turns up some pretty unsavoury websites including the Vanguard News Network. Whatever the origins and intentions behind it, it's safe to say it is also employed by anti-semites.

Vanguard News Network hates Christians as well. They view us about as favorably as they view Jews. They get two-fer insult.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867

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quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
It's pretty obvious it's aim is to offend Christians, not be anti-Semitic. Consulted friends who are Jewish and they got the point. One of them will be using it himself a he loves to insult Christians.

If the phrase has any merit at all it's probably best used by people who are Jewish.

A google search on the phrase turns up some pretty unsavoury websites including the Vanguard News Network. Whatever the origins and intentions behind it, it's safe to say it is also employed by anti-semites.

Vanguard News Network hates Christians as well. They view us about as favorably as they view Jews. They get two-fer insult.
That kind of makes my point for me. A certain squeamishness about using 'dead Jew' in an insult against another target is probably a good thing.

Am I allowed to ask Rook to let us know whether he has done any thinking about the matter?

Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
The phrase 'a good Jew is a dead Jew' frequently comes up in anti-semitic incidents.

I fail to see the relevance, to be honest. I mean, the word "Jew" features in an awful lot of antisemitic crap, but nobody suggests banning it in all circumstances. It's quite a large leap to say that because one phrase is demonstrably antisemitic, another phrase which happens to share two adjacent words with it must also be antisemitic.

.

I can't help but feel that a lot of these attempts to paint the phrase "dead jew on a stick" as antisemitic, trolling or even illegal are at heart down to posters who know we have no prohibition against being personally offensive in Hell trying to find a vaguely plausible reason to get something they found personally offensive in Hell banned.

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I can't help but feel that a lot of these attempts to paint the phrase "dead jew on a stick" as antisemitic, trolling or even illegal are at heart down to posters who know we have no prohibition against being personally offensive in Hell trying to find a vaguely plausible reason to get something they found personally offensive in Hell banned.

If that's aimed at me it's unjustified. I haven't asked for any action to be taken. I've never, ever sought to have anything banned. I'm just interested in discussion of whether the use of the phrase is wise given its undertones, especially when it comes from someone who usually acts in good faith.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
If that's aimed at me it's unjustified.

It wasn't particularly, more at the whole thread. Perhaps I should have made that more clear by starting a new post rather than using the period to separate the two things I was saying.

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Am I allowed to ask Rook to let us know whether he has done any thinking about the matter?

I have indeed. My thoughts, in no particular order, are as follows:
  • I still find it terribly funny, which in itself is reason to question its casual use.
  • It is interesting to note the shift in reaction to the term over the years. Originally, the people who reacted were antisemitic christians who were appalled at the suggestion that Jesus was Jewish. Our demographic seems to now be more liberal, even in its conservativeness.
  • I do not recall anyone asking me with any degree of directness to not post the phrase again. It's probably just me being all Canadian-ish, with the "please stop that" being preferred over the "WHY THE HELL DID THAT HAPPEN!?!?!".
  • No promises about its future usage at this time, other than that it is unlikely to ever be employed offhandedly.
  • When other people walk into a church with a looming crucifix, how do they describe what they see?

Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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quote:
When other people walk into a church with a looming crucifix, how do they describe what they see?

Look what he did for RooK.

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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Bean Sidhe
Shipmate
# 11823

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I've only just found this thread, so I'm commenting on the start.

Which has more impact?

'Symbolically eating your dead-man-on-a-stick cult leader'

'Symbolically eating your dead-Jew-on-a-stick cult leader'

I'd vote for the second, by a long way. Because 'Jew' carries powerful, historic and emotive connotations that don't need spelling out.

I'm not suggesting at all that Rook had any racist intentions. I guess he was drawn to the impact of what his predecessor had posted, which I presume was before my time here. I do think it was, in fact, a naff way to make an entirely hell-appropriate point.

Posts: 4363 | From: where the taxis won't go | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Purely incidental, but watching an episode on 'Challenge' last night of '8 out of 10 Cats', one of the comedians made exactly the same crack referring to Jesus as 'dead Jew on a stick'.

S A D

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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
When other people walk into a church with a looming crucifix, how do they describe what they see?

"A large crucifix" or perhaps "a representation of Jesus being crucified."

Certainly not "dead Jew on a stick" not least because a cross isn't a stick, at least not if you are describing a visual image.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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