|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Flipping Synod - especially the Lay People!
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I think that to the general public, it is as if this has suddenly become a documentary.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) So true!
It is how Ender's Shadow sounds in my head - I am not actually sure the priest says anything in that clip he disagrees with.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Tubbs agonised:
quote:
Where on earth does grace fit into this then?
Before meals. And sometimes, after.
Indeed. Gotta keep that grace, salvation and love stuff firmly in its place. Can't go wasting it on the wrong sort of people ... How does it go Enders:
Thank God I'm not a gay or a woman thinking about ordination ....
Pharisee.
Tubbs
[ 27. November 2012, 19:16: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Imersge Canfield
Shipmate
# 17431
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I think that to the general public, it is as if this has suddenly become a documentary.
Very good documentary clip - I think I know that vicar.
--------------------
'You must not attribute my yielding, to sinister appetites'
"Preach the gospel and only use jewellry if necessary." (The Midge)
Posts: 419 | From: Sun Ship over Grand Fenwick Duchy | Registered: Nov 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Thank God I'm not a gay or a woman thinking about ordination ....
See, I just go around thanking God that I can live my life in the safe and sure knowledge that I'll never ever be called upon to take on any kind of serious responsibility within the church. Being the wrong 'kind' of person to help out that fucked up organisation. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
glockenspiel
Shipmate
# 13645
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
quote:
Originally posted by glockenspiel:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Let's not have any thoughts on that. Ok? Start your own fucking thread.
CBA.
From the Urban Dictionary:
quote:
C BA is a severe form of laziness.
Often comparable to a psychological/medical condition. CBA is most common in teenagers around the age of 16-17 years of age.
Person 1: You coming?
Person 2: Nah, I've got a severe case of CBA.
For the edification of non-Brits following along. It also explains Glockenspiel's posting style.
Your put-downs are so gay ...
Posts: 1258 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
|
Posted
Thanks for the link to the 'evil vicar' Tubbs, it is a danger that we all suffer; it would be quite interesting to do a similar one of a liberal faced with a banker... However since I am strongly committed to the value of the Alpha course FORMAT of open discussion, and have done / led a good number courses on that basis, that really doesn't reflect my attitude to searchers. People who claim to be in good standing with the church, but are ignoring the bits they find inconvenient... that's a different matter. But that's what this board is for ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
OK Justinian, I have to agree that the Ebbesfleet website is inaccurate; the question is whether it is misleading. Does the legalese that precedes the famous clause actually mean that it is legitimate, in fact, for CofE hierarchs to take account of people's views on OoW in consider who to prefer? Or is this just a distraction that has no semantic content?
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If you think the issue of gays and women is more important than the poor and needy (as Tubbs pointed out - which you ignored ) then I hope you leave the church sooner rather than later.
So you can leave us libruls to get on with the real gospel.
But that's probably too biblical a stance for you.
Whilst I'll agree with you over women, the gay issue has a far higher claim to being a matter of great concern. Paul comments:
quote:
Don’t you know that your bodies belong to the body of Christ? Should I take what belongs to Christ and join it to a prostitute? Never! 16 Don’t you know that when you join yourself to a prostitute, you become one with her in body? Scripture says, “The two will become one.” (Genesis 2:24) 17 But anyone who is joined to the Lord becomes one with him in spirit.
18 Keep far away from sexual sins. All the other sins a person commits are outside his body. But sexual sins are sins against one’s own body.
19 Don’t you know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit? The Spirit is in you. You have received him from God. You do not belong to yourselves. 20 Christ has paid the price for you. So use your bodies in a way that honors God.
1 Cor 6:15-20
Jesus, apart from his striking comments about lustful glances being on a level with adultery, the worst of offences to his listeners, reserves a special condemnation for those guilty of encouraging sexual indulgence:
quote:
But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
Rev 2:20-22
But the core challenge is that the church is to call the world to repentance; that's what it's really about. That's the first summary of Jesus' teaching in the synoptic gospels. To the extent that our service of the poor becomes an excuse for not calling people to repentance, then we are as condemned as those to whom Jesus says:
quote:
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Mt 7:21-23
And before you quote the ONE passage in the gospels that supports your view, may I remind you of the preceding passage:
quote:
“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps[a] and went to meet the bridegroom.[b] 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.
Mt 25:1-12
It's easy to encourage people to be nice to one another, and for a period that will have a positive effect. But in the long term, because hearts haven't been changed by an encounter with Jesus, the forms of religion institutionalised in 'good works' will fade away and nothing will be left. We need the oil of the Spirit to be truly effective.
--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
Oh fuck off.
But you wanted someone to say that didn't you.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
QLib
Bad Example
# 43
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
We need the oil of the Spirit to be truly effective.
What is this? Some kind of lube?
[ 27. November 2012, 21:27: Message edited by: QLib ]
--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
That was a wee bit unnecessary, don't you think, Qlib? Take the poor bastard apart for the hapless expression of his unpopular beliefs, by all means - but mocking his phrasing to make a knob-joke about the Most Holy? Honestly, dude - you're better than that.
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Rhythm Methodist
Shipmate
# 17064
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
But the core challenge is that the church is to call the world to repentance; that's what it's really about. That's the first summary of Jesus' teaching in the synoptic gospels. To the extent that our service of the poor becomes an excuse for not calling people to repentance, then we are as condemned as those to whom Jesus says:
I suppose there are a couple of ways of calling people to repentance: you could show them some genuine love - the natural product of your own spiritual transformation (perhaps one of the many ways that will be demonstrated is through service). You may find that this love wins you the right to be heard, and that you can then further express it by sharing the gospel message. Should they receive that, they will need to hear about repentance, and are likely to embrace it.
Or, you could just stand on a street corner - and scream at people through a megaphone. You could do the whole Westboro Baptist thing - spewing hatred, and demanding the world repents....in the name of a God they don't know, and who is so obviously absent from your own life.
Jesus told his followers to go out and make disciples. I wonder how you are getting on with that, ES?
Posts: 202 | From: Wales | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
quote:
Ender's Shadow sez:
libruls [x6]
For fuck's sake. Who taught you how to spell? Glenn Beck, the same one who taught you how to think?
Evensong & Tubbs, you ought to knock it off, too. Mimicking him only encourages it.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
Everyone but especially Ender's Shadow for starting the tangent,
Please remember that homosexuality in all its ways and forms is a Dead Horse. Careful how you go here please.
Sioni Sais
Hellhost
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
It's easy to encourage people to be nice to one another, and for a period that will have a positive effect. But in the long term, because hearts haven't been changed by an encounter with Jesus, the forms of religion institutionalised in 'good works' will fade away and nothing will be left. We need the oil of the Spirit to be truly effective.
But good works are a sign of the Spirit. Faith without works is dead. You've got your theology backwards there.
As for those forms of religion that institutionalized good works......they are what changed the world.
Ideas are all very well. But when the rubber hits the road, it's about the fruit of the Spirit. Or in more contemporary terms:
SHOW ME THE MONEY!
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Whilst I'll agree with you over women, the gay issue has a far higher claim to being a matter of great concern.
(followed by endless Bible quotes)
Please excuse me, everyone. I have to go wash after reading this. ES has been prying in my bedroom again.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Whilst I'll agree with you over women, the gay issue has a far higher claim to being a matter of great concern.
(followed by endless Bible quotes)
Please excuse me, everyone. I have to go wash after reading this. ES has been prying in my bedroom again.
I wouldn't worry too much orfeo. It should have read this way:
quote:
Whilst I'll agree with you over women, the adultery and fornication issue has a far higher claim to being a matter of great concern.
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
OK Justinian, I have to agree that the Ebbesfleet website is inaccurate; the question is whether it is misleading. Does the legalese that precedes the famous clause actually mean that it is legitimate, in fact, for CofE hierarchs to take account of people's views on OoW in consider who to prefer? Or is this just a distraction that has no semantic content?
The legalese means that there are forms of discrimination that are a direct consequence of the act (and they cut both ways). Read the act and the measure in detail to get what most of them are.
quote:
It's easy to encourage people to be nice to one another, and for a period that will have a positive effect. But in the long term, because hearts haven't been changed by an encounter with Jesus, the forms of religion institutionalised in 'good works' will fade away and nothing will be left. We need the oil of the Spirit to be truly effective.
The changes in the heart you are talking about are ones which make people less charitable, less loving, and less nice, fading away is a preferable option.
As for the oil of the spirit, I think you've got it confused with Syrup of Ipecac.
--------------------
My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Whilst I'll agree with you over women, the gay issue has a far higher claim to being a matter of great concern.
(followed by endless Bible quotes)
Please excuse me, everyone. I have to go wash after reading this. ES has been prying in my bedroom again.
Oh please; isn't it blindingly obvious that early Christianity was very concerned with these issues. That YOU have decided that this is illegitimate leaves you humming loudly with your ears blocked. But we are probably outside the ruling about keeping to topic.
--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I wouldn't worry too much orfeo. It should have read this way:
quote:
Whilst I'll agree with you over women, the adultery and fornication issue has a far higher claim to being a matter of great concern.
Nice try, but for the most part the church still believes adultery and fornication to be wrong. The debate that is shredding the church is about the gay issue.
--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The debate that is shredding the church is about the gay issue.
not in Hell, it isn't. Knock off the dead horse tangent. NOW.
Comet,
Hellhost
--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Oh please; isn't it blindingly obvious that early Christianity was very concerned with these issues.
Oh please; No.
And I have no intention of debating it with you. Been there. Whacked that around until chunks of bleeding horse flesh were splattered all over your pretty apron.
My only purpose here is to register my displeasure at the fact that you seem intent on taking the chunks, and whacking them again and again until you end up with a kind of paste or slurry that can be turned into a horse milkshake.
[ 28. November 2012, 04:03: Message edited by: orfeo ]
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Oh please; isn't it blindingly obvious that early Christianity was very concerned with these issues.
Oh please; No.
And I have no intention of debating it with you. Been there. Whacked that around until chunks of bleeding horse flesh were splattered all over your pretty apron.
My only purpose here is to register my displeasure at the fact that you seem intent on taking the chunks, and whacking them again and again until you end up with a kind of paste or slurry that can be turned into a horse milkshake.
For anyone who does want to debate it, I've started a new thread.
--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It brings all the evos to the yard...
And they're like,
Its better than yours,
Damn right it's better than yours,
I can teach you,
But I'd have to charge
Which does seem to sum up their attitude and debate style. Although evos probably don't shake their booty quite as well as Kelis. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Tubbs
[ 28. November 2012, 11:24: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Nice try, but for the most part the church still believes adultery and fornication to be wrong.
An irony given the reason the CofE was created.
--------------------
My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It brings all the evos to the yard...
That was totally my first thought too!
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Nice try, but for the most part the church still believes adultery and fornication to be wrong.
An irony given the reason the CofE was created.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I think that to the general public, it is as if this has suddenly become a documentary.
This! This!! This!!!
Many a true word spoken in hyperbole ...
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
brackenrigg
Shipmate
# 9408
|
Posted
The laity voted how they were told to by the parishes they represent.
Don't forget, the vote was on the wording of the proposed legislation, not whether there should be bishopesses yea or nay.
If the wording had been similar to that 20 years ago, the vote would have gone through.
If the feminist wing thought they could pull a fast one, they thought wrong.
Retail establishment for sale - ex-swimwear shop, good views of Tiber.
Posts: 196 | From: s yorks | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by brackenrigg:
The laity voted how they were told to by the parishes they represent.
Lay members aren't representatives of parishes, but of dicoeses.
(Which is perhaps where the rot sets in - the parish church is the fundamental unit of the Church of England and a diocese merely a collection of them, most people don't care about dioceses from one Christmas to the next, so they pay litte attention to who gets elected to anything there)
quote:
...not whether there should be bishopesses yea or nay.
We obviously speak different languages. In English using the word "bishopesses" means "I am a screamimng old misogynistic bastard who melts in horror when a woman dares enter my cosymen-only world". Obviously you didn't mean to say that.
quote:
If the feminist wing thought they could pull a fast one, they thought wrong.
On the other hand maybe you do just hate women. No sign of anything else here. Or on the other thread where you are in favour of putting them all in purdah.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
the parish church is the fundamental unit of the Church of England
No. The diocese is the 'local church'. Parishes are representative of them.
It is the diocese that provides a parish priest or decides not to.
It is the diocese that sets policy and ;charges' quota/shares.
If parish churches want to declare UDI, then should become congregationalists and join the URC.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by brackenrigg:
The laity voted how they were told to by the parishes they represent.
Obviously not in the case of the Diocese of Winchester which voted for female bishops and the members of the House of the Laity voted against 6:1.
--------------------
My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by brackenrigg:
The laity voted how they were told to by the parishes they represent.
Obviously not in the case of the Diocese of Winchester which voted for female bishops and the members of the House of the Laity voted against 6:1.
There you go. They are representatives, not delegates.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by brackenrigg:
... bishopesses ...
You don't learn do you?
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]If parish churches want to declare UDI, then should become congregationalists and join the URC.
You never know - if they are the right sort of people, the baptists might (just) let them in.
But only after dunking them first.
[ 28. November 2012, 20:37: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
QLib
Bad Example
# 43
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
That was a wee bit unnecessary, don't you think, Qlib? Take the poor bastard apart for the hapless expression of his unpopular beliefs, by all means - but mocking his phrasing to make a knob-joke about the Most Holy? Honestly, dude - you're better than that.
No, I'm not.
But .... the Most Holy is one thing and the language of religiosity is another - let's not confuse them. I just happen to feel that the 'oil of the Spirit' is a phrase we can well do without. I know some churches use oil sacramentally - but then that's their oil, not the Spirit's oil. As metaphors go, oil in my lamp (Keep me burnin'!) is OK, but unctuousness is not a characteristic I want associated with the Holy Spirit for all kinds of reasons.
Though, since it appears that - as far as some people are concerned - we might as well all be worshipping giant stone phalluses (phalli?), maybe a bit of lube would be welcome.
While I'm here, I'll take the opportunity to say that the argument that 'we just don't know whether it's OK for women to be priests' strikes me as pretty thin, given everything else The Church™ claims to know.
--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
That was a wee bit unnecessary, don't you think, Qlib? Take the poor bastard apart for the hapless expression of his unpopular beliefs, by all means - but mocking his phrasing to make a knob-joke about the Most Holy? Honestly, dude - you're better than that.
No, I'm not.
So how do you understand the oil referred to in that parable? Or do you just ignore it as uncomfortable, as you accuse conservatives of ignoring the one a bit later because it suits your agenda?
--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by brackenrigg:
Don't forget, the vote was on the wording of the proposed legislation, not whether there should be bishopesses yea or nay.
My my, look what the cat sicked up.
I bet you thought we'd forgotten about this
Bye bye
Spike
SoF Admin
[ 29. November 2012, 05:41: Message edited by: Spike ]
--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
the parish church is the fundamental unit of the Church of England
No. The diocese is the 'local church'. Parishes are representative of them.
It is the diocese that provides a parish priest or decides not to.
It is the diocese that sets policy and ;charges' quota/shares.
If parish churches want to declare UDI, then should become congregationalists and join the URC.
Of course Evangelicals have always denied that the diocese is the local church. They base their opposition on a literal reading of Article 19:
quote:
The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithful men, in the which the pure word of God is preached and the sacraments be duly ministered according to Christ's ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same
The 39 Articles
Given that ordination is not a sacrament according to the church of England, all the 'sacraments' are done by the local priest. And of course quota is voluntary, so that's irrelevant to the argument in strict definitional terms.
Where this gets interesting is Leo's point: 'It is the diocese that provides a parish priest or decides not to.' Historically this was not the case; the patron appointed and the endowment of the parish provided the stipend of the clergyman. Pastoral reorganisation measures and the concept of 'priest in charge' have transferred that power to some extent to the bishop - though the completion of a pastoral reorganisation does require more than the decision of a bishop, and a priest in charge transforms into an incumbent unless issues are resolved within 5 years, or the p-i-c agrees to an extension.
However my point is that overall it is the parish that is the local church in the actual ecclesiology of the CofE, a reality reflected in the freehold and patronage system; most parishes have someone other than the bishop as their patron, though often let dioceses in on the appointment process as a matter of convenience in these days of open advertising.
In practice this is an area where there has been a major power grab by the bishops over the past 60 years. To some extent this was necessary: the decline in congregations and the value of endowments has made it necessary for someone to make decisions as to how to manage the decline. But unfortunately in practice this has not been done in a way that has inspired confidence with the less fashionable perspective in the CofE (A/C and ConEvo) often seeing their parishes homogenised into the harmless mush that is the reality of most CofE parishes. So overall we shouldn't be surprised if it's those usual suspects who are dubious about the prospects for the 'code of practice' - and as representatives of the local church, have the right to be so.
Also taking a longer historical perspective, it is true that the dioceses of the church in the first 300 years were about the size of a good sized modern parish. So in terms of functional reality, the 'bishops' of the first ecumenical council would correspond to several priests from the average deanery today...
--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
QLib
Bad Example
# 43
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
That was a wee bit unnecessary, don't you think, Qlib? Take the poor bastard apart for the hapless expression of his unpopular beliefs, by all means - but mocking his phrasing to make a knob-joke about the Most Holy? Honestly, dude - you're better than that.
No, I'm not.
So how do you understand the oil referred to in that parable?
It's a parable. We don't often talk about the Broom of the Spirit (lost coin) quote:
Or do you just ignore it as uncomfortable, as you accuse conservatives of ignoring the one a bit later because it suits your agenda?
It's not uncomfortable, it's just naff, particularly when combined with oily religiosity. Figurative language has to be judged by how it works. Light, wind and water? Fine. Oil? Not so much. In the modern age, it has a variety of unfortunate resonances. So - if this is what floats your boat - you can get away with it in the context of a religious ceremony where it's embedded with a whole wodge of archaic language and imagery - it doesn't work so well on a bulletin board IMHO.
Where does the agenda come in? It's this - the accidents of life in 0-century Palestine have been mixed up with the essentials. Of course Christ was a man - if he was a woman, he would have been locked up or stoned to death before he even got going. Would a 12-year old girl have been allowed to engage in discussion with the elders in the temple? It would have been unthinkable.
Let's leave on one side the questions about the credibility of the evidence suggesting that the early Church may have thought the unthinkable in terms of women's ministry, It remains the case that people who propose that something that was unthinkable twenty-odd centuries ago should still be unthinkable now, just look stupid.
As others have said - Christ was circumcised. Let's have circumcision for all male priests. The entire body of the faithful should refuse modern medicine, dentistry and opthalmic care. Ridiculous, isn't it? Who gets to decide which aspects of 0-century life are merely accidental and which are essential? The Church. And, if you want to discuss agendas, just look at whose convenience and what power structures the decisions of the Church serve.
--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
|
Posted
If we are to insist on sticking to the particularities of Jesus life, then yes it gets really silly.
Jesus was male but he was also a first century palestinian Jew....
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crusty
Apprentice
# 17454
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by brackenrigg:
Don't forget, the vote was on the wording of the proposed legislation, not whether there should be bishopesses yea or nay.
My my, look what the cat sicked up.
I bet you thought we'd forgotten about this
Bye bye
Spike
SoF Admin
As someone who has followed the forum for a few years and not registered I thought this might make it worthwhile.
Isn't it a little unforgiving to ban someone for life for saying one wrong word after two years of managing to stay within this rule? Jesus taught his disciples to forgive seventy times seven and preached forgiveness and new life to all. Didn't he say to pray for those that persecute you? Paul mentions that love keeps no record of wrongs. Would an apology from this man or woman be a forgivable thing?
Sorry if this is out-of-line from a new person but my minister always told me to be equipped with God's Word and speak truth to power. I didn't feel I could stand back and watch a forum ostensibly based on Christian principles be so unforgiving.
God bless - and I'm sorry again if I stepped out of line.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Nov 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
Welcome to the Ship Crusty, thanks for signing up and I hope you enjoy your voyage.
The decision you refer to was made by one of the Ship's Admins, and any questions regarding decisions by Hosts (like me) and Admins (like Spike) have to be made in The Styx.
If you could post your query/complaint there, we'll overlook your post here.
Sioni Sais
Hellhost
ps: please have a look at the Ship's Ten Commandments and the Guidelines for each board.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crusty
Apprentice
# 17454
|
Posted
Fair enough. Thanks for the welcome!
Posts: 2 | Registered: Nov 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Of course Evangelicals have always denied that the diocese is the local church. They base their opposition on a literal reading of Article 19:
quote:
The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithful men, in the which the pure word of God is preached and the sacraments be duly ministered according to Christ's ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same
The 39 Articles
I don't think we base our ideas of the Church on the Articles so much as recognise that that Article is itself based on the Bible.
But yes, what you said is true. In practice the Church of England is and always has been built parishes, and to some extent that goes back to before the Reformation.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amos
Shipmate
# 44
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Of course Evangelicals have always denied that the diocese is the local church. They base their opposition on a literal reading of Article 19:
quote:
The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithful men, in the which the pure word of God is preached and the sacraments be duly ministered according to Christ's ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same
The 39 Articles
I don't think we base our ideas of the Church on the Articles so much as recognise that that Article is itself based on the Bible.
But yes, what you said is true. In practice the Church of England is and always has been built parishes, and to some extent that goes back to before the Reformation.
Furthermore, 'a literal reading' of Article 19 would suggest that the Church is an exclusively male gathering.
--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Of course Evangelicals have always denied that the diocese is the local church. They base their opposition on a literal reading of Article 19:
quote:
The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithful men, in the which the pure word of God is preached and the sacraments be duly ministered according to Christ's ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same
The 39 Articles
I don't think we base our ideas of the Church on the Articles so much as recognise that that Article is itself based on the Bible.
But yes, what you said is true. In practice the Church of England is and always has been built parishes, and to some extent that goes back to before the Reformation.
quote:
[I]nstitutionally speaking, the [Anglican] Communion is an association of local churches, not a single organisation with a controlling bureaucracy and a universal system of law. ++Rowan
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
|
Posted
Bristol Synod
And so it goes.
--------------------
It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Bristol Synod
And so it goes.
But what does 'Great Urgency' mean in the CofE?
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
That it will be addressed straight after the clashes in the flower rota are resolved?
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Bristol Synod
And so it goes.
I'm really uncomfortable with this. Whatever way it had gone, I'd be really uncomfortable.
As for the attempted coup of Dr Giddings as Chair of the House of Laity, that is dire.
Thurible
--------------------
"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
