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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

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Originally posted by Dark Knight:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
Goodness. People have been saying to me that liberals in the Church were just as bad as the conservatives. To be honest I never really believed it, but seeing the reactions on the Ship over a mere postponement of the inevitable is sure opening my eyes.

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Pity it's not opening your mind. That empty vessel has needed filling for awhile.

As I said to a mate on FB, this all seems very strange from down here. We consecrated our first female bishop, Kay Goldsworthy, in 2008. Frankly, that was way overdue.

with all you British mob as you figure out where to go from here.

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2008?

Zach is from the Diocese of Indianapolis. By 2008, Cate Waynick had been Bishop of the Diocese of Indianapolis for 11 years. And, yes, Cate is a woman.

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I can only assume that in your mind your statement is somehow related to mine.

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Originally posted by Zach82:
Goodness. People have been saying to me that liberals in the Church were just as bad as the conservatives. To be honest I never really believed it, but seeing the reactions on the Ship over a mere postponement of the inevitable is sure opening my eyes.

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Originally posted by pete173:
Just back from the pub. Grr.

The Kingdom of God is bigger than the stupidity of 6 lay people.

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Originally posted by RuthW:

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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Whatever Episcopal ministry means, it's got something to do with accepting the authority of those who end up set over you, not 'finding a bishop'.

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It also has something to do with us being in communion with each other. Several provinces in the Anglican Communion have female bishops, and they are all in communion with the Church of England -- so the idea that you're going to keep some corner of your church free from the touch of female bishops is laughable. If women are bishops in one province, they are bishops in all of them.

So suck it up, buttercup -- you have female bishops. It's just that none of them are English. Yet.

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Originally posted by pete173:
The Kingdom of God is bigger than the stupidity of 6 lay people.

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Originally posted by daronmedway:

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Originally posted by pete173:
Just back from the pub. Grr.

The Kingdom of God is bigger than the stupidity of 6 lay people.

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Um, would you care to flesh out exactly why you - an Anglican bishop - can publicly accuse these particular people of stupidity?

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Oh, please.

Stop with the he-should-be-so-much-wiser-and-more-genteel-than-the-average-Christian stuff. He's annoyed, like many. This is Hell; people rant. Deal.

Or are you going to run and tattle to the UK yellow rags: "Ooooer! Miss! Look what Petey wrote?"

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Originally posted by Zach82:
I didn't post my comment because I know what I posted you twit.

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I have plenty of empathy for the supporters of that measure, since I am one of them and all. But there are people talking about leaving the church over this, and hell no I don't feel empathy for that. It is not understandable. We all know full well this just means another vote in 5 years.

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I am sorry you are such a hateful shit that you felt the need to hijack this thread over this, Dark Knight.

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You're not mad because I am hijacking the thread. Thread's going along fine without either of our contributions. You're mad because I am shitting all over you.

'Hateful shit' is one way of saying it. I prefer 'misanthrope' personally. Kind of stating the obvious, really. I am such a hateful shit that Rook placed me in a semi-final with orfeo a couple of years back for hell hosting duties. Fortunately for me, I won, and orfeo advanced to the final, where the poor bastard must have lost again and is now having to read every word of this shit.

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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U

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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Originally posted by Boogie:
daronmedway:

If the incoming archbishop can tweet after the meeting, then pete173 can post on the Ship! Whyever not?

The archbishop-in-waiting tweeted "Very grim day, most of all for women priests and supporters, need to surround all with prayer & love and co-operate with our healing God."

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The Church of England has voted against allowing women to become bishops” Today I denounce the Church of England

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So female Bishops don't make sense, but virgin births, resurrections, talking snakes and parting the seas all do?

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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
IF the CofE wants to continue its crass claims to be an genuinely all encompassing, inclusive, body, then it's got to get used to the idea that this inclusiveness has got to be for everyone, not just at the liberal end of the market. The gays want in - so let the opponents of women bishops stay and be accommodated. Because the alternative is to impose a doctrine test as viscus as the ones that the theological liberals used to complain about.

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Would someone mind telling me what was the perception of the wider common good amongst the blocking coalition?

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standing on a 'practising gays out' platform. And someone else standing on a 'only baptise adults' platform. Oh, and someone else standing on the issue of Vestments / Eucharistic Doctrine / outlawing Penal Substitution etc etc.

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Similarly the way that the provisions of the Act of Synod have been blatantly ignored <snip> means the level of trust here is pretty low. Then the attempts by those nice men in pointy hats to put some teeth into the protections are shouted down - and today's catastrophe shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. Trust the bishops? I'd rather trust a corrupt politician I'd just paid off; <snip>
Now there's an interesting question as to whether I should continue in the CofE given that attitude, but I tend to go for the traditional conservative Evangelical attitude that it's the best available boat to fish from, even if it is taking in water wholesale, ignoring the bench entirely:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
IF the CofE wants to continue its crass claims to be an genuinely all encompassing, inclusive, body, then it's got to get used to the idea that this inclusiveness has got to be for everyone, not just at the liberal end of the market. The gays want in - so let the opponents of women bishops stay and be accommodated. Because the alternative is to impose a doctrine test as viscus as the ones that the theological liberals used to complain about.

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You know what, I agree. I've long been a champion of diversity in the CofE, but as of yesterday that time has passed.

I now want to see every single bigoted fuckwit who thinks women are icky and can't abide the idea of them ever being in authority to fuck off to Rome where they fucking belong. They can have their little club for bigots with a lovely big neon "no girls allowed" sign over the door, and we can have a church that recognises and accepts the image of God within every human being. They can spend all their efforts in trying to hold back the advance of enlightenment for a few more years, and we can get on with living the Kingdom as fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

I'm sick of appeasing these fuckers, and I'm no longer prepared to just wait until they all die off like the unevolved dinosaurs they are. I'm sick of having to say they have a valid theological interpretation of the ontological nature of the priesthood, or whatever bullshit big words they're using to draw attention away from the "no girls allowed" sign they've got nailed to the clubhouse door. Their theology is sexist bullshit. They are sexist bigots, and I'm all out of shits to give about how they feel about me saying that. I want them the fuck out of my church right the fuck now.

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That's how I feel as well. Then I remember quite a few of the fuckers are good friends, with whom I would never question my 'communion' otherwise, and then I just want to

Not very hellish, except that the feeling does leave me deeply torn. And then I get all hellish and want to rip the blinkers from their eyes. Oh fuck. I don't know.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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All the Bishops will now be required to strip before all services, just to check one of them isn't a knavish woman in disguise.

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Well, that would certainly make the Church more relevant. In some ways.

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

However, I'm going to make it my business from now on, and if I find I can replace anyone who voted against the Measure, I'm going to make it my business to get them out of that position of power, even if I have to replace them myself.

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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Isn't it too obvious to say - find a male bishop? It's not like the church is going to be swamped by women bishops (unless they are better qualified for that position).

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Huh? Whatever Episcopal ministry means, it's got something to do with accepting the authority of those who end up set over you, not 'finding a bishop'. And a lot of the issue about the inadequacy of the provision for opponents is that there was perceived to be no guarantee that their concerns would really be respected. The unambiguous imposition of female priests on recalcitrant parishes and dioceses in the TEC despite many promises to the contrary when the legislation was being passed there means that the libruls have NO credibility when they line up saying the same nice things over here. Similarly the way that the provisions of the Act of Synod have been blatantly ignored (an advert for a vacancy in see that was honest enough to admit no opponents of women priests would be considered, for example) means the level of trust here is pretty low. Then the attempts by those nice men in pointy hats to put some teeth into the protections are shouted down - and today's catastrophe shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. Trust the bishops? I'd rather trust a corrupt politician I'd just paid off; as Heinlein comments, a corrupt politician has to stay bought, once he's taken the money (that degree of credibility is all he's got to sell), whereas people with 'principles' have a remarkable ability to interpret those principles in accordance with the prevailing winds at the time. Now there's an interesting question as to whether I should continue in the CofE given that attitude, but I tend to go for the traditional conservative Evangelical attitude that it's the best available boat to fish from, even if it is taking in water wholesale, ignoring the bench entirely: “What’s the difference between Jurassic Park and the Church of England? Well, one’s a fantasy land populated by dinosaurs . . . and the other’s a blockbuster film.” Let them play in their fantasy land of synods and the House of Lords; and if we're lucky they'll keep their mouths shut.

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Originally posted by Dark Knight:
'Hateful shit' is one way of saying it. I prefer 'misanthrope' personally. Kind of stating the obvious, really. I am such a hateful shit that Rook placed me in a semi-final with orfeo a couple of years back for hell hosting duties. Fortunately for me, I won, and orfeo advanced to the final, where the poor bastard must have lost again and is now having to read every word of this shit.

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Originally posted by Thurible:
So, the bishops accuse the laity of stupidity but expect the laity to trust them? As Chapelhead says, I wonder why they don't.

But this was not a vote about the admission of women to the episcopate: it was about this piece of legislation - which was bollocks.

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Originally posted by Thurible:

Why there were bishops abstaining yesterday, I've no idea

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Originally posted by *Leon*:
I suspect that candidates for general synod may disguise their extreme views at hustings, but I don't have proof of this. To be safe, vote only for people who make their support for women bishops clear, and ignore any doubts you might have about whether those people are really Christians.

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OK - so it's better to vote for someone on the one issue of women bishops, ignoring the fact that they don't believe a single line of the creed?

It's worth expanding this discussion to point out that the elections for General Synod are done on the Single Transferable Vote system. The simplest way to view this is that the voter gets to put the candidates in order of preference. If their first choice is eliminated as having the least votes, then their second choice 'counts'. So you can be very discriminating in the order that you use, though I tend to agree that manifestos do tend to be lacking in detail. However there are hustings, and I imagine most candidates next time will offer an email address for questions etc etc. Of course the core problem is having to be a Deanery Synod rep; as previously mentioned, the dreary evenings in dank church halls were definitely a low point in my Christian life, though there's no actual need to attend. Actually you won't be entirely surprised to hear that I did tend to try and stir things up

--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Isn't it too obvious to say - find a male bishop? It's not like the church is going to be swamped by women bishops (unless they are better qualified for that position).

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Huh? Whatever Episcopal ministry means, it's got something to do with accepting the authority of those who end up set over you, not 'finding a bishop'. And a lot of the issue about the inadequacy of the provision for opponents is that there was perceived to be no guarantee that their concerns would really be respected. The unambiguous imposition of female priests on recalcitrant parishes and dioceses in the TEC despite many promises to the contrary when the legislation was being passed there means that the libruls have NO credibility when they line up saying the same nice things over here. Similarly the way that the provisions of the Act of Synod have been blatantly ignored (an advert for a vacancy in see that was honest enough to admit no opponents of women priests would be considered, for example) means the level of trust here is pretty low. Then the attempts by those nice men in pointy hats to put some teeth into the protections are shouted down - and today's catastrophe shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. Trust the bishops? I'd rather trust a corrupt politician I'd just paid off; as Heinlein comments, a corrupt politician has to stay bought, once he's taken the money (that degree of credibility is all he's got to sell), whereas people with 'principles' have a remarkable ability to interpret those principles in accordance with the prevailing winds at the time. Now there's an interesting question as to whether I should continue in the CofE given that attitude, but I tend to go for the traditional conservative Evangelical attitude that it's the best available boat to fish from, even if it is taking in water wholesale, ignoring the bench entirely: “What’s the difference between Jurassic Park and the Church of England? Well, one’s a fantasy land populated by dinosaurs . . . and the other’s a blockbuster film.” Let them play in their fantasy land of synods and the House of Lords; and if we're lucky they'll keep their mouths shut.

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That leads me on to the PEVs, aka "flying bishops" which were created to cater for parishes, laity and clergy who were opposed to the ordination of women. Could they not become reserved posts for men, so that those in the CofE who find the concept of women clergy altogether too much could have their wishes fulfilled?

Then again, that may have been what the opponents of women bishops at Synod were holding out for, which on the grounds that PEVs exist is understandable, if plain wrong.

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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
OK - so it's better to vote for someone on the one issue of women bishops, ignoring the fact that they don't believe a single line of the creed?

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You'd end up having male clergy having to carry around an Apostolic Succession Pedigree document. It'd be like Crufts.

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Originally posted by L'organist:
Oh, for God's sake!

Justin has two choices: withdraw now or (and I'd LOVE to see this) consecrate a woman suffragan in the chapel at Lambeth as soon as he's enthroned and dare the EA/FIF et al to do anything...

Seriously: Bugger Synod.
Stop the special provisions NOW.
Lose the flying bishops PDQ.
Get Parliament to pass enabling legislation and consecrate a woman NOW.

If EA and FIF don't like it they can leave - join the Southern Baptist Convention or Exclusive Brethren or Rome or whoever.

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Yes. Except these people are still family. Can we survive another round of estrangements, as happened 20 years ago? We lost a lot of beloved siblings, etc.

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Originally posted by Thurible:
Better Together.

Thurible

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Originally posted by DunkDuffel:

I'm trying to be neutral but I really don't understand why this group haven't taken up the Pope's generous provisions for the to join the Ordinariate.

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Originally posted by L'organist:

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Yes. Except these people are still family. Can we survive another round of estrangements, as happened 20 years ago? We lost a lot of beloved siblings, etc.

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Still family maybe BUT, as many respected psychotherapists will tell you, there are families where relationships are so toxic that the best thing for all parties can be if the "we're family, we must stick together" nostrum is ditched.

I'd suggest that the CofE is at that moment now.

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quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:
Oh, for God's sake!

Justin has two choices: withdraw now or (and I'd LOVE to see this) consecrate a woman suffragan in the chapel at Lambeth as soon as he's enthroned and dare the EA/FIF et al to do anything...

Seriously: Bugger Synod.
Stop the special provisions NOW.
Lose the flying bishops PDQ.
Get Parliament to pass enabling legislation and consecrate a woman NOW.

If EA and FIF don't like it they can leave - join the Southern Baptist Convention or Exclusive Brethren or Rome or whoever.

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