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Source: (consider it) Thread: Another school shooting
Porridge
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# 15405

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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
I have no problem with guns. I have no problem with shooting at clay pigeons, or real rabbits or deer. I have no problem with farmers and ranchers who need a gun to keep predators away from their flocks and herds.

But there is absolutely no reason for a civilian to have a large capacity magazine. There is no reason for a civilian to have an automatic or semi-automatic gun. They should be banned yesterday, if not sooner.

I am undecided about whether the reasons for a civilian to have handguns are good enough to justify allowing civilians to have handguns. If we are going to allow them, they should be regulated at least as stringently as cars and driving are regulated.

The status quo is utterly unacceptable. It is time to talk about this. It is time to change it.

Damn straight.

--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Fuck you, Mere Nick -- devil incarnate as you are named. Fuck you and fuck America.

Easy, there. I'm American, and I'm 180 degrees around the circle from Shmear Dick.
Me too, but I don't have a problem with Lietuvos' condemnation of the country. If we can't do better, if we can't protect little children at school -- yeah, fuck America.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Josephine, what you describe is largely what I recall of guns in my early childhood. I was born in1954, so you can figure what that means. At least for the first ten years of my life gun violence was pretty minimal and the NRA had a completely different programme than in the last thirty years
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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It's a shame that it is against the law for trained teachers and other school personnel to be armed and that the children are left as sitting ducks.

Fuck the assertion that the answer to gun violence is to arm everyone. All this would have done is double the casualty count. The shooter still would have had the element of surprise. Arming teachers would have introduced a continual danger that a teacher's gun would be misused by kids.
Or misused by a teacher. I've had some violent ones--ranging from throwing chairs and other things, to slamming kids up against the wall in the hallway, to hitting kids. These were teachers whose "normal" state was unbalanced. If they'd had immediate access to guns...


No one in a school should have guns, with the possible exception of guards. (Kids might grab their guns.)

[Paranoid]


From what Pres. Obama said today, he's fed up and wants to do something to help prevent future shootings. Given that he doesn't have to worry about any more elections, he just might do some serious work on this--and the NRA be damned. (Unless, of course, the NRA powers that be rustle up enough sense to work WITH the president on sensible gun control. Like banning automatic weapons. I don't know what was used in this shooting; but the guy who shot up the Clackamas mall stole a semi-automatic from a friend. No civilian needs automatic weapons.)

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
deano
princess
# 12063

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Mere Nick, has the irony of you celebrating your wife’s 30 years as a teacher missed you completely?

Some people will be mourning their teacher husbands and wives today whilst you are celebrating.

Those teachers are dead and they leave widows and widowers behind, not to celebrate, but to bury them and mourn them. They are dead because of you and people who hold the same opinions as you.

You have made the point that guns don’t kill people, people kill people.

Correct, but they are using guns to do the killing Nick. They are very effective, cheap and reliable. That's why they are using them Nick. Because they do the killing very, very well.

How many more teachers will have to die instead of celebrating 30 years Nick?

What thoughts will be going through your head when you look at your gun next time?

Will you be thinking of how your wife has just celebrated 30 years of teaching?

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Pro-gun-control peeps, be sure you differentiate between automatic and semi-automatic weapons. Don't give the gun nuts a weapon (so to speak) to flay you with in their arguments. What we are talking about are semi-automatic weapons; automatic weapons are illegal. To avoid obnoxious tangents, say "semi-automatic."

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Or misused by a teacher. I've had some violent ones--ranging from throwing chairs and other things, to slamming kids up against the wall in the hallway, to hitting kids.

I was slammed against the wall in the hallway by a teacher in 5th grade. Well, a locker, but same diff. Scary to think of him having a gun at all, let alone in school.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Porridge
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My one lone semester as a community college teacher had me in a room next door to a doozie.

He was teaching something different from my course, but he spent the whole semester screaming abuse at his class. His class started before mine and ended afterward, so we never saw anything, but we could hear him through the wall. I don't know what else he might have got up to, but he finally got turned in. I understand his contract was not renewed and he's no longer allowed on the campus.

I heard a rumor he actually struck someone, but can't confirm it. Wouldn't like to think of him armed, given the names he was calling his students -- and these were adults.

Meanwhile, our legislature was busy trying to pass a law allowing guns on campus. Yikes. The bill didn't pass, thank God.

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
They are dead because of you and people who hold the same opinions as you.

Plank this prat.
Please.

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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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I think maybe *some* of the public comments about "today is not the day to discuss gun control" are meant to let the people affected deal with the immediate situation; then the country can deal with the gun issue.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I think maybe *some* of the public comments about "today is not the day to discuss gun control" are meant to let the people affected deal with the immediate situation; then the country can deal with the gun issue.

Thing is, this is said after EVERY shooting, and we never deal with the issue. The time to deal with the issue is while it's still on everyone's mind.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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roybart
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Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
I think maybe *some* of the public comments about "today is not the day to discuss gun control" are meant to let the people affected deal with the immediate situation; then the country can deal with the gun issue.
I am sure you are right. My fear is that, once the "immediate situation" has past, we will go back once again to what appears to be our default position on the proliferation of guns in the U.S.: blow-hard, ritualized public speaking combined with doing nothing.

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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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There is a picture of a poster doing the rounds of Facebook. Along with plenty of other comments and prayers and so forth (why we care so much more about little children being shot than about grown adults being shot is an interesting question which I'll let slide for the moment).

I suspect this poster is old, partly because it refers to "West Germany", but I'm not sure there's much evidence a lot has changed since then.

The poster lists handgun deaths in a variety of countries for one year, as follows:

Japan - 48
Great Britain - 8
Switzerland - 34
Canada - 52
Israel - 58
Sweden - 21
West Germany - 42
United States - 10,728


Anyone who can look at that and conclude that the American approach to gun ownership, gun control and gun responsibility is at all sensible is completely fucking deranged.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Porridge
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Perhaps this is the poster.

--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It's a shame that it is against the law for trained teachers and other school personnel to be armed and that the children are left as sitting ducks.

I congratulate your wife as she completes her 30th year of teaching, as you posted upthread. Seriously. That is very impressive. I hope she had a lovely day.

My daughter is also a teacher. She spent two hours today in lock-down with her class of 8th-graders at one of the nearby schools in the town where the shootings occurred. She got everyone safe and kept them calm and quiet. She reassured them that the people running in the hall were just the school administrators and that the banging on the school doors was just good people making sure the doors were locked. When the kids figured out that enough time had elapsed that this was not a drill and some of them began weeping, she kept them calm.

I see her as a hero. You see her as a sitting duck. You would have liked to see her pulling a gun out of the supplies closet and doing lock-and-load. You disgust me.

I've heard the "sitting duck" argument from gun afficionados before. It plays into the NRA fantasy where America is turned into Dodge Fucking City and everybody is playing Wyatt Fucking Earp.

A fantasy where one teacher in a classroom is supposed to be able to take down a shooter carrying multiple semi-automatic weapons. Where the presence of armed school staff is supposed to be a deterrent to a deranged person intent on going out in blaze of glory.

Fuck that craziness, and fuck you for perpetuating it.

And my daughter? She's waiting for the names of the victims to be released so she can see if any of her students lost a little brother or sister today.

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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BessLane
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# 15176

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quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
quote:
The knee-jerk reactions and pure vitriol on both sides of this issue do nothing towards any kind of reasonable, workable solution to the obvious problems we have in this country regarding gun violence.

all I can do is cry, pray and hug my nephews and niece extra tight...

Sorry, but this kind of response has begun to make me almost as angry as a press-release from my fellow citizens who run the NRA.

One often hears such from the self-proclaimed sensible gun-owners. After every tragedy, numerous communications saying pretty much the same thing turn up in the media.

Most of them, like the writer, make a big point of distancing themselves from "knee-jerk reactions and pure vitriol" on both sides. They are careful to position themselves on what they imply is the middle ground, along with all the other good folks who understand their guns, respect their potential for harm, lock them up, always have licenses, and who use them primarily for hunting, often as part of a generations-long family tradition.

When a tragedy occurs they tut-tut and pray for the victims, urging (as here) "reasonable, workable" solutions. Somehow, however, they never manage to turn this pious hope into something -- a campaign, a movement, a political pressure group -- that actually gets anything done. In other words, once these people -- and there are many of them -- perform their ritual, they fade away until the next time.

P.S. I'd love to be given evidence that suggests that I am wrong in this.

I am about to post a response to this that is really rather unlike me.

that response is FUCK YOU, YOU SANCTIMONIOUS ASSMUNCH!

Your response to my post is EXACTLY the kind of BS I was referring to. Yep, I'm an evil gun owner. You don't like that. Well, dear, I don't like the fact that you seem to have enough red blood cells to keep yourself alive. My getting pissed at you and others like you, just as your getting pissed at me and those like me solves nothing. To assume that my post was nothing more than a rote ritual, performed after every gun related tragedy, is arrogant pig swill. To paint every single person who owns and uses firearms with the same brush as the lunatic in the news today is no different than deciding that every Muslim is a fundamentalist terrorist. Just because rational, responsible gun-owners don't make the news doesn't mean we aren't working towards reforms in our system. We write letter, we talk to our elected officials, we teach classes in gun safety, we try to change things so that shit like today's tragedy don't happen. We just happen to think that the abolishment of all firearms is NOT the solution. You don't like that, fine. That's your right. Just don't presume that you know the hearts and minds of a great many of your fellow citizens. Because, clearly you do not.

and now, I've added my own vitriol to the conversation. Happy now?

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It's all on me and I won't tell it.
formerly BessHiggs

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Mere Nick
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# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Fuck that craziness, and fuck you for perpetuating it.

The craziness is the idea that everyone but the deranged killer gets disarmed.

I talked to my wife about it all today since what she said will have a credibility that no one here will have. She said that if someone is out to do something like what happened today, they will do it and it can't be stopped.

I said some things earlier to Mousethief, Dan and someone else that ought not be said to people. It is wrong to speak to folks like that. I apologize and ask their forgiveness.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Thank you, Mere Nick. I accept your apology and ask you to forgive my harsh words in turn.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by BessHiggs:
In other words, once these people -- and there are many of them -- perform their ritual, they fade away until the next time.

That could be because their congresscritters are all in the back pockets of the NRA and are less likely to pass real gun reform than fly to the fucking moon.

quote:
You don't like that. Well, dear, I don't like the fact that you seem to have enough red blood cells to keep yourself alive.
You're disgusting. This is close to a death threat, and knowing you are an excitable, angry gun owner is pretty fucking terrifying.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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Mere Nick, fuck you. I tried to compose a rational and well thought out response to you, but words fail me.

It's just so fucking obvious... cut down the number of guns and the number of deranged killers who have access to them automatically goes down too.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Timothy the Obscure

Mostly Friendly
# 292

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Inanna:

The Second Amendment right movement/NRA is one of the many things that I am still struggling to understand about America.

I understand it on the basis that had the ordinary citizens been armed 250 years ago there would never have been an independent America. But that was then and this is now.
I assume you meant to say "had the ordinary citizens not been armed.... But it's not true anyway. The myth that the American Revolution was a bunch of farmers with muskets taking down the redcoats with guerrilla tactics is entirely false. Every significant battle of the Revolution was won by professional armies using conventional tactics, and the involvement of the French was decisive (I got this from an Army Reserve captain who did his Masters thesis at the Army War College on this very topic).

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I have six or seven guns and will not be giving them up.

You've lost count? There's responsible gun ownership for you. [Disappointed]

The bottom line is that you and those like you are willing to sacrifice other people's children (and possibly your own) for a puerile fantasy of omnipotence. I'm sure you believe that if only you had been at Sandy Hook with your piece, you would have prevented the whole thing. The fact that no such scenario has ever played out that way doesn't figure into your fantasy of going all Chuck Norris on some mass murderer's ass. There has never been (as far as I know) a mass shooting where an armed civilian intervened successfully, or even made a serious attempt, and Colorado, Arizona, and Oregon all have quite lenient concealed carry laws. I'm sure there were some among the 10,000 people at Clackamas Town Center the other day who were armed. It made no difference.

The Second Amendment may have made some sense in 1789--not now. It's time to scrap it. It's no longer, if it ever was, a civil right, i.e., a right necessary to the exercise of citizenship. And the NRA is just a lobby for criminals, gun manufacturers, and right wing kooks like Nick.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Piglet
Islander
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quote:
Originally posted [in response to Mere Nick] by orfeo:
... Do you put locks on your doors?

Mere Nick doesn't need to. He's got six (or maybe seven) guns ...

Like most Brits, my first thought when I read this horrific story was of the Dunblane shooting about 15 years ago which IIRC was perpetrated with a legally-held weapon and led to a tightening of restrictions on gun ownership.

I can see that no amount of restriction is going to prevent such tragedies completely, but surely making gun ownership harder would be a start.

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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So...I went looking for something on gun safety--particularly for kids, 'cause I grew up in a house where the adults were mind-numbingly stupid about that, and I know gun safety info can help.

And I found SaveTheGuns.com--which is jaw-droppingly, OMG crazy, masquerading (slightly) as respectable. Skim the front page.

I know there are responsible, cautious, well-trained, sensible gun owners out there...but this guy sure ain't.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
infinite_monkey
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# 11333

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Mamacita, thank you, and thank your daughter.

I'm a teacher in a city with one of the highest rates of gun violence in the country, and it would absolutely terrify me out of teaching if my district were to seriously consider arming my colleagues and I as a defense against gun violence.

My school had a lockdown last week. I imagine adding weapons to that scenario and...there really aren't words. Maybe, and this is a HUGE maybe, it'd be different in an actual armed intruder situation. But the likelihood of myself or any of my colleagues being able to act decisively and for good with a firearm in an armed intruder situation is so vanishingly small compared to the dozens of scenarios I can imagine in which that firearm plays an inordinately different role. Triggering the kids who have seen a gun in other situations. Triggering the TEACHER who is given a daily indication that she's working in a war zone. Being accessed by any number of other people, to other ends.

God no. Please no. We've gotta do better.

--------------------
His light was lifted just above the Law,
And now we have to live with what we did with what we saw.

--Dar Williams, And a God Descended
Obligatory Blog Flog: www.otherteacher.wordpress.com

Posts: 1423 | From: left coast united states | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Mere Nick
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# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
The bottom line is that you and those like you are willing to sacrifice other people's children (and possibly your own) for a puerile fantasy of omnipotence.

The bottom line is you are wrong. I've no interest in sacrificing any children and consider it a fantasy that you can stop someone hell bent on killing.

quote:
I'm sure you believe that if only you had been at Sandy Hook with your piece, you would have prevented the whole thing.
We see how well your approach worked.

quote:
The fact that no such scenario has ever played out that way doesn't figure into your fantasy of going all Chuck Norris on some mass murderer's ass. There has never been (as far as I know) a mass shooting where an armed civilian intervened successfully, or even made a serious attempt, and Colorado, Arizona, and Oregon all have quite lenient concealed carry laws. I'm sure there were some among the 10,000 people at Clackamas Town Center the other day who were armed. It made no difference.
It isn't a fact.

Someone with a gun stopped a mass shooting in a Colorado church.

Someone with a gun stopped a mass shooter at Pearl High School.

Someone with a gun stopped a mass shooter at a Parker Middle school dance.

People with guns probably stopped a mass shooter at the Appalachian School of Law.

An armed citizen stopped a shooter in Oklahoma City.

The relatively strict gun laws in Europe didn't stop the school shootings in Germany, the UK, or the recent massive slaughter in Norway, either.

I don't believe any law has kept you or me from being murdered. What's kept us from being murdered is that no one has committed themself to doing it. If someone does commit themselves to doing it, he won't care what the law says.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Mere Nick
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# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
quote:
Originally posted [in response to Mere Nick] by orfeo:
[qb] ... Do you put locks on your doors?

Mere Nick doesn't need to. He's got six (or maybe seven) guns ...


But I haven't ever fired any of them and what little ammo I have has probably gone bad. Some of them would be pretty good for clanging someone over the head, though.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
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# 9110

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I think there may be scope for a rational discussion on gun-control in Purgatory, but I want to ask a test question.

Mere Nick

The evidence appears to be strong that the death rates from gunshot murder are very significantly lower in other Western democracies than in the US. Which implies, not that death rates or mass-killings would disappear if the right to bear arms was severely restricted. Rather that the incidence of such deaths would be very significantly reduced.

Shorn of the rhetoric and the fury, this is the reason many of us outside the US have for believing the US would be wise to restrict the right to bear arms. What flaws do you see in that argument? Would you, and any other Shipmates who share your view, be prepared to debate them in Purgatory.

Or is it a closed issue for you? One on which debate around evidence is unlikely to change your mind?

[ 15. December 2012, 05:26: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Timothy the Obscure

Mostly Friendly
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
The bottom line is that you and those like you are willing to sacrifice other people's children (and possibly your own) for a puerile fantasy of omnipotence.

The bottom line is you are wrong. I've no interest in sacrificing any children and consider it a fantasy that you can stop someone hell bent on killing.

The bottom line is that you consider these dead kids (and those in Aurora, Columbine, Oak Creek, etc.) an acceptable cost of your freedom to have "six or seven" guns you never use. You're a moral idiot.

The answer is to ban civilian possession of firearms--or at least all handguns and any long guns with magazines that hold more than six rounds. Yeah, there are a lot of them out there and it will take decades to confiscate all of them. All the more reason to start now.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
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lilBuddha
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Mere Nick,

Mass shootings are a smoke screen. Many more people die in single shootings than all the mass shootings combined.
The UK has a higher percentage of violent crime than the US, but the US has a higher intentional homicide rate. What do you think is the reason for this?

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Lucia

Looking for light
# 15201

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Reading through this discussion two thoughts occur to me. Firstly in countries with stricter gun controls you can count the incidents of gun crime but you cannot count those that have been prevented and never happened because someone didn't have access to a gun, or were less lethal because the type of weapon available was limited. You can only go by how many gun related incidents there were by head of population for comparison in different places.
And related second point is that if there are places that have a high level of gun ownership but a relatively lower level of gun crime that suggests that there are cultural factors at play that make the prevalence of guns less dangerous in that society. The problem is that it is clear that that type of culture is not sufficiently widespread in America to act as the preventative that it does in those other countries which don't have the same problem with gun crimes. Unfortunately America has demonstrated time and again that it does not have the sort of culture that enables guns to be widespread without the accompanying tragedies we read about with depressing regularity. Cultural change is very slow and difficult to achieve. In view of this stricter controls on the availability of guns would seem the obvious way to try to reduce the frequency of death and injury, even if it cannot be eliminated.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:

The evidence appears to be strong that the death rates from gunshot murder are very significantly lower in other Western democracies than in the US.

I've not seen anything to the contrary.

quote:
Which implies, not that death rates or mass-killings would disappear if the right to bear arms was severely restricted. Rather that the incidence of such deaths would be very significantly reduced.
When you look at our homicide rate it is already going down without such a restriction.

quote:
Shorn of the rhetoric and the fury, this is the reason many of us outside the US have for believing the US would be wise to restrict the right to bear arms. What flaws do you see in that argument?
The grand, overall flaw I see is that people are going to do what they really want to do. That, and I have a problem with people who are guarded by heavily armed people saying I and mine can't be. They must be more equal than I am.

quote:
Would you, and any other Shipmates who share your view, be prepared to debate them in Purgatory.
I believe I've pretty much said what I've had to say without just repeating myself over and over. But maybe. I'm not here as regularly as other folks are. It seems to often be the case that when I do post in a thread that when I do get back that several pages have been added and I don't usually try to get caught up unless it is a very interesting topic. I guess we could see who shows up. I'm not going to waste my time debating ten people by myself, though.

quote:
Or is it a closed issue for you? One on which debate around evidence is unlikely to change your mind?
How about yourself?

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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comet

Snowball in Hell
# 10353

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for the record, I've changed my mind.

I used to buy into the NRA swill that if you let the government control any guns they'll take them all. And as a former hunter in a hunting culture, this scared me.

but it's bullshit. taking away guns obviously meant for people is not the same thing as taking my 30.06. I'll get licensed, I'll register. I'll take classes (already have, actually) and require my children to take classes. whatever it takes. I will not ever again allow myself to be painted with the same brush as the hoarding of the ammo bunch. I am not those people. I will no longer defend them.

Bess is not those people, either. Don't defend them, girl. they're fucking batshit. they're going to ruin it for all of us if we don't draw a line. we keep up this all-or-nothing stance, and pretty soon our 12 gauge duck slayer is gone with everything else. We have to compromise, my friend. or all is lost.

removing the guns will not remove the cancer in our society that is really the root of this. but it's something. it's a step. if it slows down nutters like today, good enough. if it saves one life of the 28, good enough.

I've been crying all day. this is a nightmare. It's time to take some control. So as of today, I've officially switched sides. fuck this shit, our babies need to be kept safe.

That could have been my son's school, today. enough is enough.

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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

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comet

Snowball in Hell
# 10353

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
quote:
Originally posted [in response to Mere Nick] by orfeo:
[qb] ... Do you put locks on your doors?

Mere Nick doesn't need to. He's got six (or maybe seven) guns ...


But I haven't ever fired any of them and what little ammo I have has probably gone bad. Some of them would be pretty good for clanging someone over the head, though.
what is the point? do you decorate with them? They are tools. if you have no use for them, get rid of them. and get rid of your shitty ammo, you'll just blow your fucking hand off.

if you must keep them, clean them, oil them, practice with them or you're just a bloody danger to everyone around you. what if some dumbfuck kid steals your decorative little toys and blows their own head off trying to kill a stop sign somewhere?

it's bloody irresponsible.

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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
[QB] Mere Nick,

Mass shootings are a smoke screen. Many more people die in single shootings than all the mass shootings combined.

That's true. But a particular mass shooting is the reason for the thread.

quote:
The UK has a higher percentage of violent crime than the US, but the US has a higher intentional homicide rate. What do you think is the reason for this?
Our rate is falling. At least it was for the 20 years through 2010. I don't know about since then.

Since I've never killed or seriously considered it I can only suggest reasons others have gone through with it. It appears that if fathers stayed in the lives of their children that our crime rate, including murder, would plummet. However, many of these mass shooters come from two parent homes. It's 3 am. I'm racking out.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by comet:
what is the point? do you decorate with them?

I inherited them. They aren't decorations.

quote:
what if some dumbfuck kid steals your decorative little toys
You just guessed they were decorations. Don't know why, though.

quote:
and blows their own head off trying to kill a stop sign somewhere?

it's bloody irresponsible.

If I sell them to someone they can just as easily do something stupid with them. Actually, the likelihood would increase since right now they are just in the closet.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Lucia

Looking for light
# 15201

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
When you look at our homicide rate it is already going down without such a restriction.


Is that a good reason to neglect doing something to try to reduce it further?

[ 15. December 2012, 07:31: Message edited by: Lucia ]

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Barnabas62
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Mere Nick

Thanks for the reply. I'll give it a go.

In answer to your question about the openness of my own mind, I find the evidence for gun control compelling - rather in the same way as I found the evidence for strict controls (including breathalysing) over drunk driving compelling.

And for the same reasons. The trade-off between a civil liberty and an unintended consequence favoured a reduction in civil liberty for the overall good.

I'm very cautious about such changes; I know that, in democracies, administrations will sometimes seek to water down a right or a freedom for purposes of their own. But it is for me a matter of balance. I'm always prepared to discuss where and how that balance should be struck.

Thread upcoming in Purgatory. I appreciate you may be reluctant to join.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
George Spigot

Outcast
# 253

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Cartoon

--------------------
C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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You didn't answer comet's question Mere Nick - what if someone takes your guns and uses them in a shooting spree?

The person in this case took his mother's guns.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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comet

Snowball in Hell
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I don't care how you got your firearms, Nick. It's your responsibility to maintain them and keep them safe. They're not toys. And if you don't, then at the very least get barrel locks installed so they can't hurt anyone.

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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

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One blogger prayed this

quote:
Friday, 14 December 2012
Prayer for Newtown, Connecticut, December 14

“But wherefore could I not pronounce Amen?”
—Macbeth

God of liberty, we give you thanks for the many freedoms that we enjoy by your blessing.

For the freedom to express ourselves, we give you thanks!
For the freedom to satisfy our urges and impulses, we give you thanks!
For freedom of trade, especially the freedom to buy and sell weapons and ammunition at competitive prices, we give you thanks!
For the freedom to bear arms, we give you thanks!

[Overused]


[quote drastically truncated to avoid copyright infringement. Follow the link for the full thing. are you fucking high? -comet, Hellhost]

[ 15. December 2012, 09:05: Message edited by: comet ]

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a theological scrapbook

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Hawk

Semi-social raptor
# 14289

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
[QUOTE] There has never been (as far as I know) a mass shooting where an armed civilian intervened successfully, or even made a serious attempt, and Colorado, Arizona, and Oregon all have quite lenient concealed carry laws. I'm sure there were some among the 10,000 people at Clackamas Town Center the other day who were armed. It made no difference.

It isn't a fact.

Someone with a gun stopped a mass shooting in a Colorado church.

An armed security guard, not an ordinary citizen.

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Someone with a gun stopped a mass shooter at Pearl High School.

He didn't use the gun to subdue the shooter. The shooter had already finished his kiling. The civilian with a gun arrived too late to stop anyone from being shot.

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Someone with a gun stopped a mass shooter at a Parker Middle school dance.

The only legitimate example. The barman with a shotgun probably saved a few lives.

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
People with guns probably stopped a mass shooter at the Appalachian School of Law.

An unarmed citizen tackled and restrained the shooter before the people with guns arrived on the scene.
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
An armed citizen stopped a shooter in Oklahoma City.

Not a shooting. The man was firing wildly in a parking lot. No indication he was intending to actually kill anyone. Perhaps the citizen with a gun saved people. Perhaps it made no difference and a few minutes later the armed police would have arrived and arrested him anyway.

The trouble with your examples is that all they prove is that there is little that can be achieved unless you have your gun ready and to hand, and you're in the right place at the right time. But the cases where this happens are so extraordinarily rare, when compared to the dangers of allowing such ready weapons, it is obvious they cause more harm than they save.

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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer

See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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Treading gently into a clearly emotive subject and possibly with a high degree of ignorance about US gun laws that you will hopefully pardon if I show a high degree of ignorance.....

From what I've gleaned from this thread, the gun laws throughout the states seem to be lax in that you don't have a system whereby you must:
1. Have a licence that is only issued after a police check and a doctor's report and is renewable annually.
2. There are restrictions on the types of guns you can own
3. You must have suitable locks on the guns and suitable gun lockers for said guns
4. The right for the police to check the guns, their locks and the lockers at any time and have right to enter your property to do so.
5. The licence must provide a listing to the police or some other official body as to exactly what you own (in terms of how many guns and what types).
6. There is a restriction on how many guns you may own and how much ammo you may store.

Now I know that some of these 'conditions' might be very hotly debated and maybe they are already in place to a degree. But I've heard people say on this thread that there appears to be no background checks. A genuine question - what is the problem with having a background check done?

--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
The relatively strict gun laws in Europe didn't stop the school shootings in Germany, the UK, or the recent massive slaughter in Norway, either.

I don't believe any law has kept you or me from being murdered. What's kept us from being murdered is that no one has committed themself to doing it. If someone does commit themselves to doing it, he won't care what the law says. [/QB]

Norway actually has (had) lapse gun control.

Canada has had 6 notable School killings in 40 years (and most of them are smallish)

Britain had Dunblane with a then legal type of handgun.
The one since wasn't in a school, granted you ought to scale up by 5ish.
There was a machete attack in a Wolverhampton school (Nursey?), I can't remember the details but it was stopped by the teacher.

China has had 20 killed by knife attacks at schools, in a 'wave' of attacks. It's recognised it's got a problem (though I don't know what it's doing).

Germany has had 6* (4 old, 2 new). Again you ought to scale up. Of note
"Tim Kretschmer's father legally owned 15 guns as a member of a local marksmen club...Fourteen of the guns were kept in a gun safe, while the Beretta [used] had been kept unsecured in the bedroom."
I can't see any details of the gun used at Erfurt, though note a police man (who in Germany 'pack heat' got killed).
One of the older ones used a home-made flame thrower as a gun substitute, but most of the killings used guns. I don't know about how they were obtained.

*That's from Wikipedia, there are links to more 'assassination' type killings, and 'failed' attacks. Basically I don't know enough about Germany to be give a proper number.

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Bean Sidhe
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# 11823

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Years ago, when I was at home with my own small children, I was reading reports of a gang in my part of London who were forcing their way into homes, shooting dead any adults present and ransacking the house. They did spare children, who then had witnessed a parent's murder.

The truth is, if I could then have legally bought a gun, I would have gone shopping. But I couldn't, and that's the point of legislation. I'm sure many, if not most ordinary Americans who own guns feel that in a gun-ridden society they need protection. While the truth seems to be that this kind of gun-ownership simply increases the danger. It is ironic that it seems the Newtown assailant killed his mother with her own legally-owned weaponry.

I was once talking to a class of 12-13 year olds about knife crime. Most of the boys in that class told me they routinely carried a knife for their own protection. I tried to tell them that the most likely result would be that an attacker would get the knife off them and use it on them, but it cut little ice. Frightened people tend not to be so rational, that's why the law is needed.

--------------------
How do you know when a politician is lying?
His lips are moving.


Danny DeVito

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PataLeBon
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# 5452

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Treading gently into a clearly emotive subject and possibly with a high degree of ignorance about US gun laws that you will hopefully pardon if I show a high degree of ignorance.....



I'll try to help...

quote:
From what I've gleaned from this thread, the gun laws throughout the states seem to be lax in that you don't have a system whereby you must:
1. Have a licence that is only issued after a police check and a doctor's report and is renewable annually.



That's debatable. You do need a license to carry concealed. There is an attempt to have a check on people who buy guns, but there are loopholes that allow someone without a check to buy guns and own them the same day instead of waiting for the check to be completed. (I've heard that you can be on the terrorist watch list and be able to buy a gun, but I'm not sure about that one...)

quote:
2. There are restrictions on the types of guns you can own


Not really...

quote:
3. You must have suitable locks on the guns and suitable gun lockers for said guns
Not legally. Most gun owners would admit that it's safer to have them, but it's not legally required.

quote:
4. The right for the police to check the guns, their locks and the lockers at any time and have right to enter your property to do so.
Such a law would be considered unconstitutional.

quote:
5. The licence must provide a listing to the police or some other official body as to exactly what you own (in terms of how many guns and what types).
Don't know to be honest. I've never looked into it.

quote:
6. There is a restriction on how many guns you may own and how much ammo you may store.
Definitely untrue. You could own enough legally to start your own army.

quote:
Now I know that some of these 'conditions' might be very hotly debated and maybe they are already in place to a degree. But I've heard people say on this thread that there appears to be no background checks. A genuine question - what is the problem with having a background check done?
Because then the gun shows wouldn't sell as many guns because of the waiting period to have the background check completed. It's a case of my right to make money is more important than your right of personal safety or the ability to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people.

--------------------
That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)

Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
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# 812

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Mere Nick, are you seriously suggesting that the number/proportion of gun-related deaths in other Western democracies is as high as it is in the US?

I can't verify the figure, but I read the other day that there were 37,000 gun related deaths in the US last year.

[Eek!]

Few of them will have been mass shootings.

In the UK there are around 20-25 gun related deaths a year on average - although the homicide rate from knives and other weapons is much higher than that. I've also read that the per capita US homicide rate is 12-times greater than ours.

I think it has been fairly reasonably established that the US homicide rate (and it is concentrated on particular urban areas with particular problems) is around 8-12 times higher than it is in Western Europe.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Evensong
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# 14696

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quote:

[quote drastically truncated to avoid copyright infringement. Follow the link for the full thing. are you fucking high? -comet, Hellhost]

But I linked. How is that a copyright infringement? [Confused]

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a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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Mamacita - God bless your daughter, and the children she cares for. FWIW I think she's a hero too.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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posted by Pat:
quote:

Because then the gun shows wouldn't sell as many guns because of the waiting period to have the background check completed.

That seems a bit of strange argument though. There are car shows and they still sell plenty of them, but presumably you have to have it taxed and insured (and hold a licence) before you can drive away in it?

Edited to say:
Thanks for the other info. Gun law in the US is an odd thing to me and I never know what is hoped to be the case, what is made up and what is reality

[ 15. December 2012, 11:28: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]

--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:

[quote drastically truncated to avoid copyright infringement. Follow the link for the full thing. are you fucking high? -comet, Hellhost]

But I linked. How is that a copyright infringement? [Confused]
It is copyright infringement if you quote too much of someone's writings. Attribution does not change that. How much you may quote is a judgement call. In several senses of the word.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged



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