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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Another school shooting
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Dear Mere Nick.
There are legitimate uses for gun ownership.
Both our countries have hunting, we have seasons for hunting grouse, pheasants, deer and others. Hunting is a legitimate use for guns.
Both our countries have shooting as a sport. Yours won four medals in this discipline, mine one. Sport is a legitimate use for guns. Interestingly my country managed as many medals per head of population in the Olympics as yours, despite mine having gun control. Why do you think this is?
Security is another legitimate use. Most countries police carry guns without the high shooting rate. I also have no problems with seeing security guards in airports with machine guns.
I did not start this thread because I am anti gun. I am not a bad shot, despite no training I came out as good a shot as people who had been trained in the army and police. This was in the correct environment, a gun club, not the streets.
The difference is that we have laws to keep guns off the streets, and shootings in our country are much lower than yours. I believe your country needs tighter gun controls.
Are your rights to own and carry arms more important than the right of 20 five to ten year old children to live?
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
Originally posted by BessHiggs:
quote:
I am about to post a response to this that is really rather unlike me.
that response is FUCK YOU, YOU SANCTIMONIOUS ASSMUNCH!
Your response to my post is EXACTLY the kind of BS I was referring to. Yep, I'm an evil gun owner. You don't like that. Well, dear, I don't like the fact that you seem to have enough red blood cells to keep yourself alive. My getting pissed at you and others like you, just as your getting pissed at me and those like me solves nothing. To assume that my post was nothing more than a rote ritual, performed after every gun related tragedy, is arrogant pig swill. To paint every single person who owns and uses firearms with the same brush as the lunatic in the news today is no different than deciding that every Muslim is a fundamentalist terrorist. Just because rational, responsible gun-owners don't make the news doesn't mean we aren't working towards reforms in our system. We write letter, we talk to our elected officials, we teach classes in gun safety, we try to change things so that shit like today's tragedy don't happen. We just happen to think that the abolishment of all firearms is NOT the solution. You don't like that, fine. That's your right. Just don't presume that you know the hearts and minds of a great many of your fellow citizens. Because, clearly you do not.
Thank you, BessHiggs, for responding. Although I probably am a "sanctimonious assmuch" at times, I don't think I said several of the things that you accuse me of saying. I did not attack all gun owners as gun owners. I did not use anything like "vitriol" in my post, as I understand that term. I did not compare you or people like you to mad terrorists. I was very careful NOT to advocate the "abolishment of all firearms," because I know this is an impossibility and, in the real world, probably not desirable. My use of the word "ritual" was intended to suggest the way in which, after each tragedy, the same sentiments are trotted out without much effect. The fact that people believe their words does not make those words socially useful.
I was speaking out of frustration and (yes) anger at these events. I am glad to hear that you and your friends are so active in trying to bring sensible gun control laws. I just reported that I see very little evidence of this in my (gun-loving) part of the world. And I see fewer practical results.
quote:
and now, I've added my own vitriol to the conversation. Happy now?
Honestly, no I am not happy to read your post. It is actually quite troubling.
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
This young man used his mother's legally procured guns to kill 28 people. That's why all the promises from gun owners to make tighter gun control laws or to educate people on gun safety mean very little to me.
Serious mental illness usually strikes in the late teens or early twenties. Once diagnosed and medicated these young people are actually less likely to commit acts of violence than others, but it's those years between onset of symptoms and actually getting medical help for these young people that pose the danger. So the idea of doing background checks to see who might be dangerous with a gun is just another way of giving us all a false sense of comfort. Most of these people would have no record of mental illness at the time of purchase.
I don't think it's reasonable for us to think gun dealers are ever going to be able to determine who is or isn't going to use the gun he's selling in a safe manner. Mental illness is just one factor, there are all the people who are simply careless and forgetful and leave guns lying where children can get them. There are people who snap when their spouse is unfaithful and people who are victims of criminal burglars who steal their guns, to name just a few scenarios. I think the only answer is to outlaw most guns, and outlawing semi- automatic weapons should be a no brainer.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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PataLeBon
Shipmate
# 5452
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by Pat:
quote:
Because then the gun shows wouldn't sell as many guns because of the waiting period to have the background check completed.
That seems a bit of strange argument though. There are car shows and they still sell plenty of them, but presumably you have to have it taxed and insured (and hold a licence) before you can drive away in it?
Ah..but car shows are run by the auto manufactures who will make as much money if you go to the dealership to buy than at the car show.
Gun shows are run by gun dealers who won't make the money if you go to the store to buy the guns and ammo instead of buying right there on the spot. People act like gun shows are rare, but around here there is one at least once a month, if not every weekend. It's a big loophole that one can drive a semi through and one I wish would be closed.
I grew up around guns, and people bringing their hunting rifles to school to show off. I understand wanting a hunting rifle. I understand wanting different kinds of guns for target shooting. I understand wanting to collect guns. I actually understand wanting a gun for protection if help is over 30 minutes away.
However, I teach 4 year olds. I don't understand the idea that if I owned a Glock, was trained in how to use it in a school shooting incident (which would be a specialized training that I would need to take and keep updated every year), and keep my gun properly maintain and sighted, it would make my parents and students feel safer. That mindset makes me shiver. It's the mindset of might makes right. It's not the mindset of people who work together and support each other. It's not the mindset that will help students to understand that they shouldn't bully each other out of respect for the other.
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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I have given the murders a lot of thought. They were horrific. Good, innocent, people killed to satisfy some deranged person's desire for God only knows what before that person killed himself.
Condemn him. He did a horrible thing and there can be no redeeming features to him so he can legitimately be shown as a one off incident and not indicative of us normal people. Three letters: jlg.
I heard on the news last night that gun control is unlikely to prevent mass killings like the one yesterday because the killers tend to plan their killings meticulously and have no qualms about breaking the law to achieve their ends. I see that.
Unfortunately, mass killings are only a tiny portion of the problem. Have a look at the chart of the 10 leading causes of violence related deaths by age group in 2010 from the CDC.
While automatic firearms in the US require a special license that requires, among other things, that you make your premises open to surprise inspection by the feds, they are not illegal.
Semi automatic weapons are not outlawed at all. Please believe me when I say that semi automatic weapons can usually fire at a high enough rate of speed to kill several people within a few seconds. So can revolvers.
It seems we Americans have two sources of providing our fellow human beings with a violent death; guns and cars.
Cars have other uses, of course.
Guns can have other uses as well. Hunting is one use of guns. Before you anti hunters chime in just remember I will not pay attention to you if you have eaten a hamburger recently.
Self protection . . . well . . . hard call. My son was recently asking about a gun for self protection because he was moving to a not so nice part of town. I told him it was a bad idea, but I am his father so things I say he doesn't want to hear can be discounted. I brought in the security guard at our office building. This guy did weapons training in the Army for years. He said that having a gun usually puts you are more risk, rather than less risk.
Why? Unless you have the gun available, know how to use it, and are willing to take another human being's life, you are apt to get shot. I cannot look into other person's minds but I would bet large sums of money that most people who buy firearms for "self protection" go no further than buying a pistol and ammunition.
Available? Great idea. Just reach over and pull the gun out of your drawer while the bad guy is pointing a gun at you. Go ahead. They will wait. Maybe under the pillow. Course, that is a little lumpy and it might go off.
The Second Amendment states: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
I do not buy that it has to mean every idiot can pack heat. In any event, look what happened the last time militias decided to break free from the government. Yes, maybe Gettysburg and Shiloh are popular tourist attractions now. I don't think all the soldiers who died there would lay down their lives for future generations of tourists.
Should something change? Yes. I never want to read another story of a mass killing. I never want to deal with the human aftermath of a drive by shooting again. I never want to spend another sleepless night worried that my child might get shot.*
Will things change? Not until politicians have the courage to stand up to the NRA and gun idiots quit sucking up all the bullshit that is handed them by paranoid gun boosters.
Have a look at what happened when President Obama got elected the first time.
All I know is average Americans have to get a grip and have their voices heard.
One more thing in my long and assuredly boring post; If I read the f word in your posts I will discount any and all other content. That goes for old friends as well.
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* On a good note, my child found a much better way to not get shot or robbed. He made friends with his neighbors.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
What tortuf said.
Thanks for the clarity and balance. A "long" post, yes. But "boring"? -- not at all.
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I have put my thought in a blog post, linked to in my sig.
I got home after a party last night, somewhat drunk, and picked up on twitter what had happened. I was totally unable to consider it. My prayers and thoughts.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
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take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
FFS the world isn't fixed because you blog about it, nor do we wait with baited breath for words of wisdom to drop from your lips. If you have nothing to say here then don't, and go pray in all saints.
I am sick and tired of people posting on sof threads, 'I am really concerned, I've blogged about it' - well woot, all sorted then I don't think. That and the implication we all need to go running to your blog to make up for the gaping void left in the thread left by you withholding the precious fruit of your cogitation, is just a teensy weensy bit narcissistic.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
An excellent post, Tortuf. Thank you.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
An excellent post, Tortuf. Thank you.
Agreed - thank you.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Well-said, Tortuf.
FWIW, I did not blog about my rage. I wrote to President Obama pledging my support and money toward proposals to reform this country's gun laws.
I also called 3 fellow state legislators to see if there's some way to form a task force to review our state's gun laws and propose any needed changes.
It ain't much. But right now, it's all I can do.
[ 15. December 2012, 13:53: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
The difference is that we have laws to keep guns off the streets, and shootings in our country are much lower than yours. I believe your country needs tighter gun controls.
Are your rights to own and carry arms more important than the right of 20 five to ten year old children to live?
We have extensive drug laws to keep drugs away from people. They work as well as prohibition did and as well as tighter gun controls will. When I hear calls for tighter gun control laws, or especially disarming all but the government, what I'm being told is that turning the gun trade over to those who sell illegal drugs will reduce gun violence. I don't believe it.
The same arguments I'm hearing from the tighter gun control crowd sounds identical to those who equate drug law reformation to advocating that marijuana and other currently illegal drugs be openly available to children just like those gunned down yesterday.
The reason we have more guns than you do is because we want more guns than you do.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
[QB] Mere Nick, are you seriously suggesting that the number/proportion of gun-related deaths in other Western democracies is as high as it is in the US?
No, I've not suggested that. I've no doubt that, as a country, we Americans have more of a desire to shoot other people than do other western countries. We seem to get off on it.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
You didn't answer comet's question Mere Nick - what if someone takes your guns and uses them in a shooting spree?
The person in this case took his mother's guns.
The answer would be the same as to the question "What if someone buys my guns?"
But Comet does have a good point that I should get new ammo and go up to the mountain and shoot them a bit.
Instead of saying 6 or 7 guns, I'll just say 6. The seventh gun, a revolver, might make a good paper weight and that's about it.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
We have extensive drug laws to keep drugs away from people. They work as well as prohibition did and as well as tighter gun controls will.
1. Apples and oranges. Drug users, once addicted, actually physically need the drug to function, and need it so desperately they'll go to extreme lengths to get it.
I'm not aware of any evidence that gun-owners develop a physiological dependency on gun ownership.
2. I don't hear people on this thread calling for a prohibition on guns, or even their ownership by private citizens. Prohibition of alcohol didn't work for the same reasons that outright prohibitions on various drugs don't work: there's a physiological process involved (addiction) that goes unaddressed. I can't speak to elsewhere, but people arrested on possession/use charges in my state get sent to jail, not to rehab. This not only does not help them, it renders life inside prisons and jails much more dangerous, with illegal trafficking & all that goes with that, inside the system.
Prohibition, like black-and-white thinking, is probably not a realistic approach to any widespread human problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
When I hear calls for tighter gun control laws, or especially disarming all but the government, what I'm being told is that turning the gun trade over to those who sell illegal drugs will reduce gun violence. I don't believe it.
Despite the glaring evidence offered on this thread that restrictive gun laws in other countries also reduces gun deaths (homicide and suicide)? I doubt anyone here imagines we can wipe those risks out; nobody's suggesting that. But surely cutting the rate of gun deaths is a worthwhile goal.
Are you suggesting that a reduction is impossible, or are you claiming that it isn't worth the effort?
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
The same arguments I'm hearing from the tighter gun control crowd sounds identical to those who equate drug law reformation to advocating that marijuana and other currently illegal drugs be openly available to children just like those gunned down yesterday.
Again, apples and oranges, plus black-and-white thinking. We do not need to (nor can we) ban gun ownership by private citizens.
I think, though, it might be possible to conform more closely to the Second Amendment by requiring those who wish to own guns to actually belong to a well-regulated militia, with at least monthly meetings, regular checks on numbers and conditions of weapons and ammo, regular practice, proper storage, and annual license renewal.
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
The reason we have more guns than you do is because we want more guns than you do.
Careful with that "we." I am not among that number.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
[QB] Mere Nick, are you seriously suggesting that the number/proportion of gun-related deaths in other Western democracies is as high as it is in the US?
No, I've not suggested that. I've no doubt that, as a country, we Americans have more of a desire to shoot other people than do other western countries. We seem to get off on it.
A bit like the way the British get off on drunkenness and casual sex I suppose, but I don't pretend these don't contribute to lousy life expectancy and appalling STI and unintended pregnancy stats. IMNSHO these are cultural things. Maybe both societies have serious reckless streaks and on that basis I'm pleased we have fewer firearms in Britain. We could use more realistic sex education too, rather than avoiding the subject 'cos it's icky.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
A bit like the way the British get off on drunkenness and casual sex I suppose . . .
That does it. I'm moving to England.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Will things change? Not until politicians have the courage to stand up to the NRA and gun idiots quit sucking up all the bullshit that is handed them by paranoid gun boosters.
That won't change anything. What has to change is our desire to kill. Nothing else will work.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
As more details come out about the killer, it certainly sounds like the access to the guns was a big part of the issue. Had he only had access to a knife, the story would have been "children hurt" like the one on the same day from China.
He came from a decent home, had a mother who would get him help with mental health issues and was buzzed into the school by the principal who recognized him as someone who was not a threat. Her trust cost her her life.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
Hijackers crash planes into buildings killing 3,000 Americans and this country changes air regulations,develops new screening technology, increases domestic and international intelligence and goes to the ends of the earth to try to prevent it from happening again. 12,000 Americans are murdered by guns annually and "There's nothing we can do. Someone will slip through the cracks and do it again. People are just bad."
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ 15. December 2012, 14:52: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Mere Nick Posted: Since they can still get them "more difficult" really doesn't matter. It's like to put things a little bit higher so my cat can't get to them. He still does.
To my mind gun-control issues are about reducing abuse of guns, not eliminating them. There are as others have said, perfectly legitimate uses for guns.
It's an accepted norm (here) that gun-suicides and home killings are higher amongst farming communities where guns are naturally and legitimately held. But the point isn't their legitimacy but their availability. It wasn't the illegitimacy of the gun that killed, it was the easy access (as well as the person behind the trigger).
This horrendous school killing may well have happened anyway regardless of tighter controls; and the point that a determined person would plan in advance is a very fair point. A clever person will certainly be able to satisfy even the toughest gun-authority.
But it's illogical to think there wouldn't be some reduction in such killings if access to guns were much tighter, more strictly enforced etc. We know that not every life can be saved - but some can. And they must be worth the effort of enforcing a system that not only makes the temptation to Mere Nick's cat 'more difficult' to follow up on - but abso-fucking-lutely difficult.
However, maybe for the States the horse has bolted. After all, the normality of a gun-culture would make it too difficult, I imagine, to backtrack on ownership. The weapons are out there. 'Amnesties' involving handing in firearms, are probably highly unlikely to either work to any degree, or to have the significance that such events have had here in Britain and Ireland.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
FFS the world isn't fixed because you blog about it, nor do we wait with baited breath for words of wisdom to drop from your lips. If you have nothing to say here then don't, and go pray in all saints.
Fuck you too.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
He came from a decent home, had a mother who would get him help with mental health issues and was buzzed into the school by the principal who recognized him as someone who was not a threat. Her trust cost her her life.
And why did she think he was not a threat? Because she recognized him. Was the security system at the school flawed because it operated on the assumption that the only danger is from strangers?
She didn't die because she trusted him and let him in; she died because upon hearing gunfire, she walked out into a potentially dangerous zone instead of staying put and calling 911.
[ 15. December 2012, 15:07: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
He came from a decent home, had a mother who would get him help with mental health issues and was buzzed into the school by the principal who recognized him as someone who was not a threat. Her trust cost her her life.
The police officer said the killer had forced his way into the school. He didn't say how.
ETA - Here is the link.
[ 15. December 2012, 15:13: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
That's right: let's put the blame where it squarely belongs: on the victims.
The principal's at fault for her own death by letting the shooter into the building and for walking into the line of fire.
The shooter's mother is at fault for owning guns that were accessible by her mentally-ill son.
The town is at fault for having a small population and hiring only three detectives.
The teachers are at fault for herding children into tight groups, making them easier targets, instead of spreading them out and keeping them in motion.
We're all at fault for reducing government waste and fraud by cutting mental health budgets/services.
For God's sake. Can we stop assigning pointless and unnecessary blame and instead get on with figuring out how to reduce the chances of this happening again?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Lothiriel
Shipmate
# 15561
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Hijackers crash planes into buildings killing 3,000 Americans and this country changes air regulations,develops new screening technology, increases domestic and international intelligence and goes to the ends of the earth to try to prevent it from happening again. 12,000 Americans are murdered by guns annually and "There's nothing we can do. Someone will slip through the cracks and do it again. People are just bad."
Going after terrorists (especially if you can use an adjective phrase like "Muslim extremist") is an "us vs them" scenario. But going after domestic guns means looking in the mirror for the problem.
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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery
my blog
Posts: 538 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Mar 2010
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
An article What makes schools safer? from CNN:
quote:
"There is not a single safety measure that anyone could have put in place at that school that would have stopped what happened," said Bill Bond, the school safety specialist for the National Association of Secondary School Principals. "When you allow absolutely insane people to arm themselves like they're going to war, they go to war."
He calls metal detectors useless. Buzzer systems are just locked doors. Lockdown plans are important to keep people safe, but they don't keep evil out.
"In a school, your only real protection is kids trusting you with information," Bond said. "If they don't trust you with information and someone is planning to do something, it's a matter of how many will be killed before you kill him."
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
I don't travel a lot and I don't suppose I ever will. But if the opportunity to visit the USA comes up I will think long and hard because I see it as a place where I will be in danger from anybody who wants to carry a gun.
Rational? Probably not. But that's how I feel.
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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Our rate is falling.
Interestingly, it's falling in lockstep with a historic decline in gun ownership. Fewer people with guns, fewer gun-releated deaths. Hmmm.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
What a meaningful addition to the discussion.
ETA: RE the Rogue's post.
[ 15. December 2012, 15:37: Message edited by: Tortuf ]
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Hijackers crash planes into buildings killing 3,000 Americans and this country changes air regulations,develops new screening technology, increases domestic and international intelligence and goes to the ends of the earth to try to prevent it from happening again. 12,000 Americans are murdered by guns annually and "There's nothing we can do. Someone will slip through the cracks and do it again. People are just bad."
Guns have the potential to make people do bad . They can hypnotize , they are like objects of desire . The psychology of guns is the problem . America is awash with firearms , the entire history of it's settlers has been shaped by firearms.
The US has the technology to put a man on Mars, it can drop a smart-bomb by remote control on someone the other-side of the planet.
How tragically ironic that such a mighty Nation still seems powerless against a punk with a gun who take's it into his head to shoot people at random.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
What a meaningful addition to the discussion.
ETA: RE the Rogue's post.
Thank you.
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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Will things change? Not until politicians have the courage to stand up to the NRA and gun idiots quit sucking up all the bullshit that is handed them by paranoid gun boosters.
That won't change anything. What has to change is our desire to kill. Nothing else will work.
I don't know about you but my desires are shaped by what is out there available to do or to have.
I might want to kill someone but if I don't have easy access to a firearm that can be carried without detection or arousing suspicion then I'm less likely to do so.
If such weapons aren't available in the normal course of events and if I can't carry what weapons I can freely obtain without everyone being aware, I'm sure my desire to kill is less likely to come to anything.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The poster lists handgun deaths in a variety of countries for one year, as follows:
Japan - 48
Great Britain - 8
Switzerland - 34
Canada - 52
Israel - 58
Sweden - 21
West Germany - 42
United States - 10,728
Anyone who can look at that and conclude that the American approach to gun ownership, gun control and gun responsibility is at all sensible is completely fucking deranged.
I absolutely agree .
In fact the situation is just so freakin ridiculous that the "tragically ironic" of my last post should read as "tragically absurd".
Is it ever possible for a Country as big as the States to have a complete brain-change where guns are concerned ?
Very few of us looking at America from the outside are optimistic anything will change.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Then quit looking.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
FFS the world isn't fixed because you blog about it, nor do we wait with baited breath for words of wisdom to drop from your lips. If you have nothing to say here then don't, and go pray in all saints.
I am sick and tired of people posting on sof threads, 'I am really concerned, I've blogged about it' - well woot, all sorted then I don't think. That and the implication we all need to go running to your blog to make up for the gaping void left in the thread left by you withholding the precious fruit of your cogitation, is just a teensy weensy bit narcissistic.
Neither is the world fixed if one posts the precious fruit of their cogitation in Hell. Methinks you see narcissism where none necessarily exists. (But of course narcissism is never manifested in Hell posts.)
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Then quit looking.
Well, the USA is kind of hard to ignore! What with all those weapons 'n'all... However, if you meant 'quit looking' in the way that nobody likes to make eye contact with the crazy smelly guy on the tube talking to himself and picking at the sores on his face, you might have a point ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) .
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lothiriel:
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Hijackers crash planes into buildings killing 3,000 Americans and this country changes air regulations,develops new screening technology, increases domestic and international intelligence and goes to the ends of the earth to try to prevent it from happening again. 12,000 Americans are murdered by guns annually and "There's nothing we can do. Someone will slip through the cracks and do it again. People are just bad."
Going after terrorists (especially if you can use an adjective phrase like "Muslim extremist") is an "us vs them" scenario. But going after domestic guns means looking in the mirror for the problem.
True...
quote:
We think danger is black, brown and poor, and if we can just move far enough away from "those people" in the cities we'll be safe. If we can just find an "all-American" town, life will be better, because "things like this just don't happen here."
Well bullshit on that. In case you hadn't noticed, "here" is about the only place these kinds of things do happen. Oh sure, there is plenty of violence in urban communities and schools. But mass murder; wholesale slaughter; take-a-gun-and-see-how-many-you can-kill kinda craziness seems made for those safe places: the white suburbs or rural communities.
And yet once again, we hear the FBI insist there is no "profile" of a school shooter. Come again? White boy after white boy after white boy, with very few exceptions to that rule, decides to use their classmates for target practice, and yet there is no profile? Imagine if all these killers had been black: would we still hesitate to put a racial face on the perpetrators? Doubtful.
Mass shootings and white denial
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
I now have a new article to post in response to those who say that criminals can always get guns. In the UK apparently they are reduced to "an illegally modified starter’s pistol turned into a single-shot weapon" and using home-made ammo.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Newest reports say the shooter was 20 years old, so definitely it was violent video games.
Okay I am hoping that this is in line with your post a few back about arming school children, by that I mean sarcastic and somewhat gallows humouresque in tone.
Video games do not make people violent. There have been 11 million copies of the lastest series shooter sold in the last two weeks, not mention tens of millions of other games around the world over the past few years. It is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that playing a game will make someone into a murderer. If they did then you'd have a hell of a lot more psychopathic rampages on your hands than this tragic instance.
There are many millions of people, myself included, who play computer games and console games for FUN. I have absolutely no intention of apeing my favourite character by running around buildings and stabbing people. Give us all a little bit of credit, we are adults, we do know the difference between pixels and people.
It's ridiculous side tracking of issues like this that means nothing meaningful ever actually gets done about gun control.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
Well, I just told someone on Facebook that if they once more posted a graphic stating that God is the kind of jackass who kills children just to fill celestial job opening for an angel, I was going to kick them in the junk.
In Christian Love, of course.
And why is it no one's talking about the fact Child's Play Charity, which collects donations from video gamers and the game industry to donate games and toys to children's hospitals around the world, has broken their record yet again and raised $3,000,000.00 USD this year? Oh, wait, that's right, because we're too busy stealing guns to kill people.
[ 15. December 2012, 20:47: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
With mass firearm killings declining since the '90s and down from their peak in the '20s, a concerned Brit opens yet another a Hell thread condemning the lack of gun control laws in the United States on the heels of an horrific shooting.
All Right-Thinking People then emote concern all over the ensuing four pages.
Quelle surprise.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
But, at least now you can get on with your day feeling superior to all of us.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
How in the world do you respond to Christian colleagues who post articles like this? Seriously? I've already tried to speak to the t-shirt posts about not letting God in schools but this takes the cake!
http://www.russellmoore.com/2012/12/14/school-shootings-and-spiritual-warfare/
It's up there with Gov. Huckabee saying it's because we took prayer out of the schools and the AFA's Fischer saying it's because we don't allow God in schools. And this gets a rarely used (by me)
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
With mass firearm killings declining since the '90s and down from their peak in the '20s, a concerned Brit opens yet another a Hell thread condemning the lack of gun control laws in the United States on the heels of an horrific shooting.
All Right-Thinking People then emote concern all over the ensuing four pages.
Quelle surprise.
Misleading statistics are misleading
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Misleading statistics are misleading
What is misleading about those statistics, pray tell?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
With mass firearm killings declining since the '90s and down from their peak in the '20s, a concerned Brit opens yet another a Hell thread condemning the lack of gun control laws in the United States on the heels of an horrific shooting.
A Brit only barely beat me to starting the thread.
quote:
All Right-Thinking People then emote concern all over the ensuing four pages.
Fuck you too.
quote:
[b]Quelle surprise. [/QB]
If we're not providing sufficient entertainment, look elsewhere. No one's holding a gun to your head and making you read.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Misleading statistics are misleading
What is misleading about those statistics, pray tell?
In the context of TSA saying shootings were down since the 90s. They are. What she didn't say was the 90s were frankly batshit crazy for shootings. You've just returned to the level in the 70s and 80s of over 8000 homicides per year - hardly worthy of the gold star she was looking for.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Doc Tor provisioning your tautology with a hyperlink doesn't save it from itself.
Precisely how do traces showing number of homicides by weapon type against years from 1976 to 2002 relate to the assertion that "mass firearm killings [have been] declining since the '90s and [are] down from their peak in the '20s"?
But, balaam did, RuthW; and, that's my point. It's all too predictable.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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