|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Another school shooting
|
Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
|
Posted
The response of the NRA, along with the ongoing Fiscal Cliff nonsense, just shows (me) that popular political conservatism has lost its mind and heart.
It will be such a desecration of the memory of the kids and teachers if we do nothing. I don't count putting armed guards in schools as doing something, as it is such a stupid and impractical idea.
[ 22. December 2012, 15:52: Message edited by: Alt Wally ]
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That's assuming we have a rock bottom. An individual person has a rock bottom. As each gun drunk hits his rock bottom, he will be replaced by another with a yet lower bottom.
Possibly. Many alcoholics never hit their own rock bottom. They die. The analogy still holds.
It might if you were speaking of an individual. That capacity for self-deception at a group level can perpetuate indefinitely. Look at the death penalty in America. Despite all statistics demonstrating its ineffectiveness, unequal application and its many deaths of the innocent; it still continues.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Maybe we should consider that the world's Newport-Sandy Hook began a little earlier and frankly doesn't really matter. 20 killed children is not enough to mean anything much? Whatever. They would be just bug splats to American soldiers and their presidents if they were brown people in Pakistan.
" must follow that what applies to the children murdered there by a deranged young man also applies to the children murdered in Pakistan by a sombre American president."
" The people who operate the drones, Rolling Stone magazine reports, describe their casualties as "bug splats", "since viewing the body through a grainy-green video image gives the sense of an insect being crushed". Or they are reduced to vegetation: justifying the drone war, Obama's counterterrorism adviser Bruce Riedel explained that "you've got to mow the lawn all the time. The minute you stop mowing, the grass is going to grow back"."
Bottom line? you tell us.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Americans will have a chance to reduce gun violence when we are no longer the world's greatest producer and purveyors of weapons. Till then, the chickens will continue to come home to roost.
But I wonder if there is a clear practical link in addition to the moral link. It would be perfectly feasible to have a roaring overseas trade in arms with no domestic trade (e.g. the UK) or, vice versa, a roaring internal availability of arms with next to no export (a number of failed states as examples).
I'm not so sure of the moral link, but I am utterly convinced that one just needs to follow the money.
The American profiteering from war and violence swamps the UK, and everybody else. The rest of the world are little pikers in comparison. See here. This doesn't even consider the, so-called, civilian expenditures.
The American trauma of firearm violence is a domestic sideshow, a by-product of its international weapons-mongering. It's primarily driven by greed.
Domestic fulmination about magazine sizes, flash suppressors, and foldable stocks is to flock to the attractions of the domestic midway, ignoring the carnage in the global circus tent.
What is required is a changing of the American heart and mind on the international stage. We need to furlough the military-industrial apparatus and apply that economic energy to enterprises that promote life.
The National Rifle Association (which is more about the armaments industry than it is about hunters) is just a domestic distraction from a weapons lobby intent on international profits.
I don't give a fuck what the NRA said in their tawdry little press conference; we ought to be listening to what the Catholic Bishops say in their writings on peace and justice.
And, let me say that putting law enforcement officers in the schools is just batshit crazy. That only furthers the already distressing level of militarization of American civic life.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
I don't give a fuck what the NRA said in their tawdry little press conference; we ought to be listening to what the Catholic Bishops say in their writings on peace and justice.
The ABC has spoken out.
quote:
And, let me say that putting law enforcement officers in the schools is just batshit crazy. That only furthers the already distressing level of militarization of American civic life.
Yes ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
No Prophet, trying to make a link between a legitimate government's decisions in response to terrorism, with the actions of those who deliberately target children in schools is facile.
But we've discussed that already. You were wrong then and you're wrong now.
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
eeGAD
Wandering Stowaway
# 4675
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Recess. Playground. Sniper across the street in the trees picking off children one by one.
The residents of the Washington DC area actually lived through this in 2002. During the 3 weeks of terror during the Beltway Sniper attacks, a 13yr old boy was shot while entering school.
People talked about armed guards at schools back then. But that wouldn't have helped that boy. It's important that people remember Columbine, where they actually had armed guards at the school but it didn't make a difference.
Putting more guns at schools, to me, is a very surreal response to these events.
After the shooting at The Dark Knight Opening, should we put armed guards around movie theaters too?
eeG
--------------------
You don't fix faith. It fixes you. - Shepherd Book
Posts: 976 | From: The Land of Mary | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
Armed guards everywhere. Then, also following the guidance of the NRA, arm everyone. This will work because, um, ![[Confused]](confused.gif) How is that supposed to work again?
[ 22. December 2012, 21:22: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
PataLeBon
Shipmate
# 5452
|
Posted
I'm beginning to believe that we should stop calling them victims but martyrs to the NRA and the Second Amendment.
Maybe if we start a calendar of the martyrs, people will start realizing that many of us see NOT owning a gun as an act of faith in a higher power. As believing in the God who states that might doesn't make right and that we will be judged by how we treat the least of these.
Or maybe I'm just incoherently angry...
--------------------
That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That's assuming we have a rock bottom. An individual person has a rock bottom. As each gun drunk hits his rock bottom, he will be replaced by another with a yet lower bottom.
Possibly. Many alcoholics never hit their own rock bottom. They die. The analogy still holds.
But that's also why your solution won't ever become a solution. Even with more and more guns, there will always be a gun nut who says the problem had to do with the guns not being deployed correctly or that something else was wrong (cf mousethief's comment about snipers and needing to redesign schools to fix this), and that the true solution involves more guns.
It wouldn't even stop at every person in the nation having a gun, because the situation now is that those Americans who own a gun usually own several.
The only solution will be when the people who aren't gun drunk stop humoring the gun drunks and paying attention to what they say.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
This is Hell, so I'm going to say that my mind finds something delicious about the prospect of Wayne LaPierre being personally attacked at some point, just to see if he can manage to pull his gun in self-defence.
Because I think there's a tremendously good chance that he won't be able to, and that he would end up a dead, bleeding monument to the futility of his own arguments.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by eeGAD:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Recess. Playground. Sniper across the street in the trees picking off children one by one.
The residents of the Washington DC area actually lived through this in 2002. During the 3 weeks of terror during the Beltway Sniper attacks, a 13yr old boy was shot while entering school.
One of the very first school shootings happened in San Diego, CA in 1979. Brenda Spencer lived across the street from an elementary school and shot 8 students and killed the principal and one other. She also wounded police who responded, then barricaded herself inside her house. She was 16.
--------------------
"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
The ABC has spoken out.
He is bang on target, if you'll pardon the expression in this context. A default response of violence and the threat of violence. I've said something similar about the fundamental error of allowing people to think that guns are the solutions to their problems. And when guns are so easily available, they appear to be an easy 'solution'.
As has been said, putting some walls in front of people - making killing people, and especially killing large numbers of people, something that's difficult and requires effort and above all more time - will actually stop a considerable number of people from trying to do it. Skew the choice away from "I can just grab a gun and take them out", and fewer people will grab a gun and start taking people out.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
One of the very first school shootings happened in San Diego, CA in 1979.
School shootings are not only an American phenomenon.
Snopes has the earliest being in Ottawa, Canada in 1975.
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That's assuming we have a rock bottom. An individual person has a rock bottom. As each gun drunk hits his rock bottom, he will be replaced by another with a yet lower bottom.
Possibly. Many alcoholics never hit their own rock bottom. They die. The analogy still holds.
But that's also why your solution won't ever become a solution. Even with more and more guns, there will always be a gun nut who says the problem had to do with the guns not being deployed correctly or that something else was wrong (cf mousethief's comment about snipers and needing to redesign schools to fix this), and that the true solution involves more guns.
It wouldn't even stop at every person in the nation having a gun, because the situation now is that those Americans who own a gun usually own several.
The only solution will be when the people who aren't gun drunk stop humoring the gun drunks and paying attention to what they say.
Like I said, the analogy still jholds. how many generations will the US lose before she too dies?
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Armed guards everywhere. Then, also following the guidance of the NRA, arm everyone. This will work because, um, How is that supposed to work again?
Well, it turns the U.S. into a police state where everyone is under constant surveillance and where any wrong movement, gesture or statement can lead to execution without trial. Moreso if you're eccentric, mentally ill/challenged or are stressed out. (See: North Korea)
[ 23. December 2012, 19:54: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
--------------------
"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
The NRA is calling for volunteers from its membership to help defray the enormous costs of putting armed guards in schools.
Time for Anonymous to hack the NRA website and comb its membership list, some 4 million strong, for names of past shooters . . . what are the odds?
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
I see it now. Thousands of unregulated gun nuts patrolling the environs of schools. What are they going to do though? Gun carrying is, according to the NRA, legal and decent, if not to be encouraged, so why the heck shouldn't someone walk into school carrying a gun? What will these volunteers do and when will they open fire?
I don't see the death toll falling, though it may include more adults, ie, those patrolling schools with the best of intentions, who are going to be the first targets in any future incidents. Another example of America's bravery surplus.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Piglet
Islander
# 11803
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I see it now. Thousands of unregulated gun nuts patrolling the environs of schools ...
That's one of the most frightening aspects of it. The NRA bloke may have peddled the idea of armed guards with the best of intentions (although I doubt it), but I can't help thinking it would be all too easy for a psychopathic nutter to bypass the safety checks like Ian Huntley, who got a job as a school caretaker (despite having a dodgy past) and went on to kill two little girls.
Quis custodiet?*
* "who guards the guards?"
--------------------
I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
In that film classic "All Quiet on the Western Front" the old soldier told youngsters, new to trench combat, that the best weapon to use when under attack was not a rifle but a humble spade.
While day-dreaming in our local super-market this morning I thought had a gun-totter appeared at the end of an isle to indulge themselves, then me pulling a gun, (should I own one), and trying to take them from the front would be completely useless.
What a brave and focused person,(probably not me), would better do is run back the the length of the isle and up another one to jump the perpetrator from behind, then wrestle the weapon to the floor.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Recess. Playground. Sniper across the street in the trees picking off children one by one.
How is your "armed guard" going to stop that?
Well, we'll have to redesign schools with the courtyards in the inside.
Kinda like prisons.
Like in the
spree that inspired "I Don't Like Mondays"?
[ 24. December 2012, 13:09: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
--------------------
Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
PataLeBon
Shipmate
# 5452
|
Posted
Apparently firefighters need armed protection, or at least be ready to shoot back ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
4 Firefighters shot responding to house fire
When will the NRA admit that there is a gun problem in America? When their own offices get shot up???
--------------------
That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
In that film classic "All Quiet on the Western Front" the old soldier told youngsters, new to trench combat, that the best weapon to use when under attack was not a rifle but a humble spade.
While day-dreaming in our local super-market this morning I thought had a gun-totter appeared at the end of an isle to indulge themselves, then me pulling a gun, (should I own one), and trying to take them from the front would be completely useless.
What a brave and focused person,(probably not me), would better do is run back the the length of the isle and up another one to jump the perpetrator from behind, then wrestle the weapon to the floor.
That's the classic "Asymetric response", in military terms. In the first forty years of the 20th century the major naval powers indulged in an expensive and futile arms race to build more and better battleship than their perceived enemies. After the First World War very few battleships were sunk by other battleships; most were sunk by aircraft, submarine torpedoes and mines. That's just one example. The American military machine wsn't hustled out of Vietnam by an enemy with strategic bombing capability and battlefield helicopters. OK, that's war, but does anyone seriously believe that think that guns will solve the gun problem?
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
[...] When will the NRA admit that there is a gun problem in America? When their own offices get shot up???
Probably not.
--------------------
Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
I can't help thinking it would be all too easy for a psychopathic nutter to bypass the safety checks like Ian Huntley, who got a job as a school caretaker (despite having a dodgy past)
Huntley didn't bypass anything - he had never had a conviction against him at that time, and background checks quite rightly don't include unproven allegations or accusations.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
|
Posted
And once the first armed firefighter or school guard gets killed, the NRA will likely start calling for armed guards to protect the armed guards and firefighters and policer officers.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
4 Firefighters shot responding to house fire
Merry fucking Christmas, every one.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
When will the NRA admit that there is a gun problem in America? When their own offices get shot up???
There's a "meme" going around FB right now that says, if women were using assault weapons to protect their reproductive rights, the NRA would ban them yesterday.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) Silly mousethief, they would not. What they would do is begin to petition for the right to arm the unborn.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Please don't send him back.
This gives an idea what We British think of Piers Morgan.
(Scroll down a bit to Thursday 5th June - Current Puns.)
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
moron
Shipmate
# 206
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
It had been police advice on a visit to the school. And as I made clear, I was talking to year 8 students, growing up in a tough East End borough but little more than children.
I guess the cops would say that to children.
And I suppose I'm a little touchy on the topic as recently for the first time in my (oddly) not short life I brandished a knife - a Spyderco Native I am now even more grateful I own - and it gave the aggressor serious enough pause he backed down.
Not that I recommend anyone doing what I felt necessary: a better man would have handed over his cloak. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
And a man with less luck would have been dead. He may have had a gun. And, to forestall the argument, if you had a gun you would still likely be dead.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
moron
Shipmate
# 206
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And a man with less luck would have been dead.
And now we approach the meat of it (mt?): please define 'luck'.
You'll thank me later.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
