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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Bishops of Chichester, Fulham and now Beverley
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FrNJSSC
Apprentice
# 17314
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Posted
I have a very sneak suspicion that Fr David Houlding SSC will be announced as the New Bishop of Fulham in the coming weeks.
You know with all appointments there are certain processes that need to be carried out before the announcement can be made but the Bishop of London has it in hand.
The Suffragan See of Fulham is very blessed indeed and we welcome David Houlding or whoever it might be with open arms.
CONGRATULATIONS to Canon Glyn Webster as well
Posts: 4 | Registered: Sep 2012
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
"Now then, Butch Harry, tell us about Fulham."
(Camp Freddie, Chairing Mr Bridger's weekly planning group)
But who's going to Whitby?
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Laurence
Shipmate
# 9135
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
"Now then, Butch Harry, tell us about Fulham."
(Camp Freddie, Chairing Mr Bridger's weekly planning group)
But who's going to Whitby?
I love the idea that standard liturgical dress for members of the SSC is this:
Camp Freddie
Posts: 648 | From: Lincolnshire | Registered: Feb 2005
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FrNJSSC
Apprentice
# 17314
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Posted
Well there is nothing much too say about Fulham except that the announcement is due soon and that the New London Plan should be published soon after probably before the Consecration at least by then the situation on the Ordination of Women Bishops will be clearer.
I think it's about time Fr Houlding became a Bishop but we will just have to wait and see
Posts: 4 | Registered: Sep 2012
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FrNJSSC:
I think it's about time Fr Houlding became a Bishop but we will just have to wait and see
If, though, one follows the idea that those who want to be bishops shouldn't be...
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ondergard
Shipmate
# 9324
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
[QUOTE]Any other arrangement would seem, within the English context, to reduce the CofE to the status of a voluntary sect like Roman Catholicism or Methodism.
I've been watching this thread with disinterest (in the right sense of the word) because what different interest groups within a church I have nothing to do with at the moment are arguing about affects me not one jot (thankfully) but I do object to the kind of C of E arrogance which relegates a whole church (or should I say "ecclesial community"?) - whether it be Roman Catholicism or Methodism - to the status of a "sect".
Reading it though makes me profoundly grateful that, whatever else my denomination might be, and whatever traumas we might be going through, at least we don't have to cope with, as you would put it, arrogant "twattery" like that.
Posts: 276 | From: Essex | Registered: Apr 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I don't think many people in the CofE would use the word 'sect' to describe the Methodist Church, or the RCC, URC, BUGB, etc for that matter. Trisagion ( who is of course an RC) has his own way of using language, but he does IME have a very good understanding of how other churches see themselves in their own terms even if he doesn't agree with those terms.
I think that the appropriate comparison would not be with what 'sect' implies, but with churches which are legally voluntary associations such the Scottish Episcopal Church and indeed I suppose the CinW and CofI.
[ 05. September 2012, 10:08: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
It seems to me that sect is sometimes used as a put-down of other people and their churches, but it shouldn't be really. All churches are sects in one sense (and in another, any church which ever split from another can be said to be a sect of the first).
It does strike me that if the CoE completely disintegrates, there will be several 'daughter' churches fighting for the kind of attention and regard that the original once had. But then that isn't particularly new to some denominations, I guess they'll all get over it in time.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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FrNJSSC
Apprentice
# 17314
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Posted
It could well be Philip North, I know John Sentamu is quite keen on it being a traditionalist appointment.
Anyways whoever do succeed those appointments will be great and we should feel very blessed.
New Bishop of Fulham is being consecrated on the 30th November 2012 - St Paul's Cathedral. Come and show your support for him
Posts: 4 | Registered: Sep 2012
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Trisagion ( who is of course an RC) has his own way of using language
I hadn't realise my attempts to be precise would be seen as idiosyncratic. Heigh Ho!
In any event, Ondergard, you shouldn't mistake my juxtaposition of the two terms "Church of the Nation" and "voluntary sect" used in a technical sense with the popular and generally negative common use of the word "sect", still less with any approval of the CofE's self-conception. In fact, even a cursory reading of my posts on this thread reveals that I think it ridiculous. That, however, is both a tangent and, probably, a dead horse.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I'm afraid that I posted in a hurry. A concern for precision may be idiosyncratic but if it is, it is an idiosyncrasy worth having.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I'm afraid that I posted in a hurry. A concern for precision may be idiosyncratic but if it is, it is an idiosyncrasy worth having.
Too kind.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Trisagion ( who is of course an RC) has his own way of using language
I hadn't realise my attempts to be precise would be seen as idiosyncratic. Heigh Ho!
In any event, Ondergard, you shouldn't mistake my juxtaposition of the two terms "Church of the Nation" and "voluntary sect" used in a technical sense with the popular and generally negative common use of the word "sect", still less with any approval of the CofE's self-conception. In fact, even a cursory reading of my posts on this thread reveals that I think it ridiculous. That, however, is both a tangent and, probably, a dead horse.
Ondergard isn't the only one who made that assumption.
In any conversation we have to bear in mind that what you (ie all of us) think you have said, are saying or might say, isn't always how it is received by the hearer(s).
In church terms "sect" carries a range of strengths of expression from simple statement of position in relation to a perceived "core" grouping to perjorative dismissal.
Thus it's best avoided as a descriptor as it's hard to extract the exact meaning intended in that context. Some passive:aggressive types would use it, claiming one understanding when they are actually seeing it as quite another.
Best avoided methinks to prevent misunderstandings.
So, to clarify things for everyone's understanding, in your use of "sect:"
- you don't believe that Methodists are a "sect" in the perjorative sense? And, that there is therefore no "core" expression of faith by which others are measured?
- Methodists et al are therefore simply another expression of valid Christian faith in your view?
- you don't see or treat them, or any other Christian grouping, as a sect in the perjorative sense?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
!, thank you for correcting me on the use of English. Would you, henceforth, like me to submit my posts to you for pre-posting vocabulary moderation, in order that, should I choose to use a word which might have a number of meanings, you can advise me on how to ensure such misunderstandings are to be avoided? In the alternative, Shipmates could just read the thread, take note of the context and where the poster is coming from and read for comprehension.
Since I am a Catholic and that is fairly well known on these boards and since I paired both the Catholic Church and the Methodist Church, in the post in question, with one another as "voluntary sects", it should be clear that I simply didn't mean it in a pejorative way.
For the avoidance of doubt, and taking up the first limb of your first alternative (the second limb of that choice is simply a non sequitur), I don't consider the Methodist Church, or any other mainstream denomination for that matter, to be a sect in the pejorative sense.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
!, thank you for correcting me on the use of English. Would you, henceforth, like me to submit my posts to you for pre-posting vocabulary moderation, in order that, should I choose to use a word which might have a number of meanings, you can advise me on how to ensure such misunderstandings are to be avoided?
I don't think that's necessary at all. Just making a point about how language might be understood or misunderstood: I could take your remark as sarcastic of course, unless that's what you really meant.
[ 06. September 2012, 12:40: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Maureen Lash
Apprentice
# 17192
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Posted
It is going to be more interesting to see what happens in Blackburn. Will the Chichester precedent be followed?
Posts: 32 | From: Moseley | Registered: Jul 2012
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AngloCatholicDude
Shipmate
# 16476
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Posted
I believe that Whitby will be a traditionalist and so will Blackburn - I think if John Sentamu could be faithful to appoint a new Bishop of Beverley he will appoint a traditionalist to +Blackburn.
+Blackburn has been a traditionalist see for so long, it would be a shame for it to stop
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Trusting and Believing in the Catholic Tradition within the Church of England
Posts: 85 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2011
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Maureen Lash
Apprentice
# 17192
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Posted
But the See of Blackburn is not in Archbishop Sentamu's gift.
Posts: 32 | From: Moseley | Registered: Jul 2012
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
And what about all the people in Blackburn who support the ordination of women and so are not "traditionalists" in the sense you are using that word here?
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
Posts: 701 | From: Norwich | Registered: Jan 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Is it a new development in the C of E, that certain dioceses are associated with particular traditions and hence the bishop thereof will 'always' be of the same ilk? AFAIK Bishops of Blackburn were as likely to be MOTR or Evangelical until about two or maybe three bishops ago. Southwark has tended to appoint 'liberal catholics', but one of the best-loved ones in recent times was an Evangelical from Ulster. I don't know about Chichester but I don't think Bishop Bell (I know that's a long time ago) was particularly anglo-catholic. London has tended to establishment types as much as a-cs.
The only exception I can think of is Liverpool, where no PM/monarch has ever dared to appoint anyone not from an evangelical background. That is not to say they have all been partisan. There is a reason why this might be the case, and in any case the diocese is very far from being as monochrome or as extreme as Sydney.
It would be a tragedy if whole swathes of the CofE became monochrome party fiefdoms in the Sydney mould.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
And what about all the people in Blackburn who support the ordination of women and so are not "traditionalists" in the sense you are using that word here?
When another See in the Northern Province breaks from the seemingly universal practice and appoints a "traditionalist", then you might have a point. It works both ways.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Maureen Lash
Apprentice
# 17192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Is it a new development in the C of E, that certain dioceses are associated with particular traditions and hence the bishop thereof will 'always' be of the same ilk?
It would be a tragedy if whole swathes of the CofE became monochrome party fiefdoms in the Sydney mould.
If it were quietly established that the sees of Chichester, Exeter and Blackburn would henceforth be filled with bishops who held the traditional position on ordained ministry, it could remove the need for the messy arrangement with PEVs and create 'de facto' 3rd province, whereby orthodox parishes could, in the event of women purporting to be diocesan 'bishops', opt out and place themselves in the pastoral care of sound sees. A thought.
Posts: 32 | From: Moseley | Registered: Jul 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
At the risk of getting into DH territory: If it were quietly established that the CofE ordains women to the priesthood and will soon do so to the episcopate, and that really it was about time that everyone, and certainly anyone aspiring to orders at any level, accepted this or found another boat to fish from, then the CofE could get on with the business of ministering to the nation and not have to spend so much time dealing with the tantrums of the, as it were, ADHD kids in the back row of the class. A thought.
[ 15. September 2012, 11:35: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Maureen Lash
Apprentice
# 17192
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Posted
Yes Abertus, how right you are. Maybe God should have quietly accepted that the sons of Korah had a right to be priests and levites instead of throwing an ADHD tantrum.
Posts: 32 | From: Moseley | Registered: Jul 2012
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+Chrism
Apprentice
# 17032
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Posted
What days do they normally make episcopal announcements? Is it Wednesday?
Archbishop of Canterbury is due to be announced next month, +Londin in front runner for the position
Posts: 38 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2012
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Maureen Lash
Apprentice
# 17192
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Posted
Paddy Power still has Bishops Cocksworth and James as frontrunners.
Posts: 32 | From: Moseley | Registered: Jul 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Maureen Lash:
Yes Abertus, how right you are. Maybe God should have quietly accepted that the sons of Korah had a right to be priests and levites instead of throwing an ADHD tantrum.
Oh yes, of course, I was forgetting about FiF's personal hotline to the Almighty. :brickwall
[ 15. September 2012, 11:59: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Maureen Lash:
If it were quietly established that the sees of Chichester, Exeter and Blackburn would henceforth be filled with bishops who held the traditional position on ordained ministry, it could remove the need for the messy arrangement with PEVs and create 'de facto' 3rd province, whereby orthodox parishes could, in the event of women purporting to be diocesan 'bishops', opt out and place themselves in the pastoral care of sound sees. A thought.
But these bishops, like all other diocesans, are ordained to be the bishop for the whole diocese, not just to the self-styled 'orthodox'. If it were indeed decided that the majority of the C of E were 'unorthodox' it would be different. But we are not, except by the definitions of another Church.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Which does not recognise the orders of even the most Papalist and/or anti-OOW of our clergy!
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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+Chrism
Apprentice
# 17032
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Posted
This may seem like I'm going off topic but interesting question.
If a Roman Catholic Bishop or Cardinal magically decided they wanted to the Catholic Church and join the Church of England because we recognise their orders would they be instantly ordained/consecrated a Bishop
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+In Nomine Patris Et Filio Sancti
Posts: 38 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2012
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Maureen Lash
Apprentice
# 17192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
This may seem like I'm going off topic but interesting question.
If a Roman Catholic Bishop or Cardinal magically decided they wanted to the Catholic Church and join the Church of England because we recognise their orders would they be instantly ordained/consecrated a Bishop
Not a particularly interesting question at all. First of all the decision, even if misguided, would not be 'magical', and there is precedent for this event. Then, since the Anglican Communion recognises the orders of the Catholic Church, they would not need to be ordained or consecrated, but would be received as bishops, which does not, of course, mean that they would instantly be awarded a see - if that's what you were trying to ask.
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
![[Confused]](confused.gif) I thought the Ordinariate had been created as the sandpit of choice for the terminally more-orthodox-than-thou-thank-you-very-much-especially-if-thou-art-female and likewise also ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Maureen Lash:
If it were quietly established that the sees of Chichester, Exeter and Blackburn would henceforth be filled with bishops who held the traditional position on ordained ministry...
...it would deny the people of those dioceses the chance to benefit from the ministry of ordained women. Something the majority of Anglicans are quite happy with. And it would also run slap into the other reasons a "third province" is a non-runner, which there is no point in going over yet again.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
What days do they normally make episcopal announcements? Is it Wednesday?
Archbishop of Canterbury is due to be announced next month, +Londin in front runner for the position
Tuesdays at 11.
And i hope you are wrong about London.
Place your bets.
Christopher Cocksworth, bishop of Coventry, currently leads the pack, odds 6/4.
*
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Maureen Lash:
quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
This may seem like I'm going off topic but interesting question.
If a Roman Catholic Bishop or Cardinal magically decided they wanted to the Catholic Church and join the Church of England because we recognise their orders would they be instantly ordained/consecrated a Bishop
Not a particularly interesting question at all. First of all the decision, even if misguided, would not be 'magical', and there is precedent for this event. Then, since the Anglican Communion recognises the orders of the Catholic Church, they would not need to be ordained or consecrated, but would be received as bishops, which does not, of course, mean that they would instantly be awarded a see - if that's what you were trying to ask.
Actually, the question is quite interesting. And as was mentioned, there actually is historical precedent.
In the year 1616, Marco Antonio de Dominis (1566-1624) Roman Catholic archbishop of Split (now Spoletto) arrived in England and was received by King James I. deDominis lived with Archbishop Abbot of Canterbury at Lanbeth, until James made him dean of Windsor. On Dec 14, 1617, deDominis participated as assistant at the London consecration of George Montaigne as bishop of Lincoln, and Nicholas Felton as bishop of Bristol.
Google Marco and find out more about his amazing career as an Anglican.
*
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
What days do they normally make episcopal announcements? Is it Wednesday?
Archbishop of Canterbury is due to be announced next month, +Londin in front runner for the position
Tuesdays at 11.
And i hope you are wrong about London.
Place your bets.
Christopher Cocksworth, bishop of Coventry, currently leads the pack, odds 6/4.
*
Hooray - that is the man i voted for in a Circus thread months ago. I hope he gets it - not because it will prove me to have been right but because he will do a good job.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
And of course, when Marc Antonio* went back to Italy, he was not welcomed with the open arms he expected. While he was not dealt with as harshly as others, he was kept under a form of house arrest until his death.
*Like so many names of the time, it was spelt in various ways. Trevor-Roper spells it as Marcantonio, for example.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
What days do they normally make episcopal announcements?
Tuesdays at 11.
Well, if that's the case, another week bites the dust.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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+Chrism
Apprentice
# 17032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
What days do they normally make episcopal announcements?
Tuesdays at 11.
Well, if that's the case, another week bites the dust.
Thurible
It does seem like another week bites the dust, which is a shame. I think everyone is quite eager now to find out who +Fulham is.
Normally +London gets appointments announced within 6 months of the appointment process starting, so September is the 6Th Month. This has been the case with the last 2 episcopal appointments in +London (Stepney and Kensington)
With the consecration in 11 weeks, surely the announcement should be out end of next week.
Posts: 38 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2012
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
It's more complicated than that. Do remember that the PM and the Queen are involved in the process. We may wish to announce, but there are a lot of hoops to jump through. Even the CRB process can take time.
So we'll announce when we're allowed to do so. Sorry it's taking so long.
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Maureen Lash
Apprentice
# 17192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
It's more complicated than that. Do remember that the PM and the Queen are involved in the process. We may wish to announce, but there are a lot of hoops to jump through. Even the CRB process can take time.
Does that mean that one of your highly dubious candidates from the Diocese of Chichester is under consideration?
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+Chrism
Apprentice
# 17032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
It's more complicated than that. Do remember that the PM and the Queen are involved in the process. We may wish to announce, but there are a lot of hoops to jump through. Even the CRB process can take time.
So we'll announce when we're allowed to do so. Sorry it's taking so long.
I'm sure you will let us know when you are allowed too. We wait with baited breath and I am sure a wonderful person has been appointed who will support us and be a great asset to the Diocese of London.
The horrible CRB process ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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+In Nomine Patris Et Filio Sancti
Posts: 38 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2012
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+Chrism
Apprentice
# 17032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Maureen Lash:
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
It's more complicated than that. Do remember that the PM and the Queen are involved in the process. We may wish to announce, but there are a lot of hoops to jump through. Even the CRB process can take time.
Does that mean that one of your highly dubious candidates from the Diocese of Chichester is under consideration?
Maureen this is a discussion about +Fulham and has nothing to do with the issues going on within the Diocese of Chichester.
+Pete Willesden is a man of free speech, some times we don't agree with what he says and some times we do but I don't think your sarcastic comment is needed.
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+In Nomine Patris Et Filio Sancti
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
I'd call her to Hell, but the experience would be tedious...
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Pete
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
Is there also a detailed explanation of the appointment process for apostrophes ... ?!
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
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