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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Bishops of Chichester, Fulham and now Beverley
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
Since when was Blackburn a 'trad catholic' diocese? It is pretty mixed - I have a former colleague who is there and he is con evo! Plus there is an open evangelical suffragen. Blackburn is, if anything, Lancashire Low - I had a bishop once who said all parishes in Manchester diocese were Lancashire Low - even the Anglo-Catholic ones!
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
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Fifi
Shipmate
# 8151
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
How many of those appointed to episcopal or cathedral posts (if we're taking those as "senior office") since 1994 have been unable to accept the admission of women to the canonical priesthood, outside of the dioceses of London, Blackburn, York, Chichester, Europe, and Exeter?
Thurible
Well, are we going to need more than the fingers of one hand? How about one bishop, one archdeacon and three cathedral canons?
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
Since when was Blackburn a 'trad catholic' diocese? It is pretty mixed - I have a former colleague who is there and he is con evo! Plus there is an open evangelical suffragen. Blackburn is, if anything, Lancashire Low - I had a bishop once who said all parishes in Manchester diocese were Lancashire Low - even the Anglo-Catholic ones!
Don't they still church women there?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
]Bristol had an FiF precentor until 3 years ago.
As did 'liberal' Southwark not all that long ago. IIRC.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
I'd imagine Fr Clover was one of those of whom Fifi was thinking, leo. There's also Fr Haselock at Norwich. I can't think of the third off the top of my head.
Angloid, who was that? And when?
There was the chancellor at Leicester a few years back (who was in situ when Viv Faull went to be Dean) but I don't know when he was appointed.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
A little googling reveals that Michael Banks was appointed to Leicester in 1987 and, at that time, was an advocate of the ordination of women but changed his mind in the mid-90s.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Fifi
Shipmate
# 8151
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
I'd imagine Fr Clover was one of those of whom Fifi was thinking, leo. There's also Fr Haselock at Norwich. I can't think of the third off the top of my head.
I'd forgotten Brendan Clover (mea culpa!); my three were Jeremy Haselock, Martin Warner & John Lees. And now I recall a fifth: Paul Greenwell.
I don't recall one at Southwark, but that diocese did have an Archdeacon until, I think, last year.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
I'd suggest that even this relatively small number is still far, far out of proportion to the number of members of the C. of E. who disagree that women can be ordained. Is there a serious suggestion that the representation amongst diocesans, suffragans, deans and the rest ought to be 50/50? This seems quite ridiculous, I'm afraid.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
No, but, rather, that views on the OoW oughtn't to be a factor whereas they very much have been.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Bwnni
Apprentice
# 17342
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Posted
It seems to have gone very quiet on the Fulham front.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
I think it will have noised up by, say, the end of the week.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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AngloCatholicDude
Shipmate
# 16476
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bwnni:
It seems to have gone very quiet on the Fulham front.
+Pete said that the Fulham Announcement will be by the end of this month - which is tomorrow. Keep praying and hoping - I am sure Downing Street will announce it tomorrow.
The person who has been appointed is a wonderful addition to the London Team but we must continue to pray for him and the Fulham Jurisdiction as they move forward in their ministry.
I am sure +Pete will comment in due course about this issue.
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Trusting and Believing in the Catholic Tradition within the Church of England
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Hezekiah
Apprentice
# 17157
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rugbyplayingpriest:
Ebbsfleet to Fulham and Robin Ward to Ebbsfleet is my guess.
Luke Miller gets my vote. I heard that Robin Ward was possibly up for Dean of Chichester.
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2 Kings 3:27
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fifi:
I don't recall one at Southwark, but that diocese did have an Archdeacon until, I think, last year.
That's right, Tony Davies who was Archdeacon of Croydon and retired last year. It was a deliberate appointment by +Roy Williamson who felt it was important to have an opponent to OOW in the hierarchy of the diocese so that their voices would still be heard.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Yet another reason for regarding +Roy as my favourite bishop.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, he was a good one. Although when I got the letter in his name saying I'd been turned down by ABM back in '92, the chaplain I was working for at the time- also an Irishman, but very much a TCD MA- looked him up in Crockford and, on seeing his educational background, very memorably expressed the view that +Roy had been 'dragged up by the short hairs'!
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Fifi
Shipmate
# 8151
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Posted
Baker it is. Laus Deo!
Posts: 591 | From: Here | Registered: Aug 2004
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
And now we hope and pray for a worthy successor, one who is caring, loved, committed to the Church of England, humble, a good preacher, and a faithful pastor.
Damian Feeney please, God.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Bishop Jonathan has posted a farewell notice on his website.
Despite knowning it was coming, I'm really, really sad. Fulham are very lucky to be getting him.
quote:
It was announced this morning from 10 Downing Street that I am to be the next Suffragan Bishop of Fulham in the Diocese of London.
I am very sorry indeed to be leaving the priests, people and parishes of Ebbsfleet after this short time as your bishop, and I will miss my ministry among you enormously. However, I believe that this move is the right one for me at this time in my own Christian pilgrimage, and I hope you will continue to pray for me as I prepare to move on.
I will fulfil my diary as Bishop of Ebbsfleet until Ash Wednesday, 13th February 2013: indeed it will be 'business as usual' until then. After that, I will have a period of leave in order to move house and office and to prepare to take up my new duties some time in Eastertide.
I have been given every assurance that a new Bishop of Ebbsfleet will be appointed to succeed me, and that matter is in the hands of the Archbishop of Canterbury and his successor. Please pray for all involved in the selection and appointment of the next Bishop.
Looking beyond Ash Wednesday, I hope that, in the short term, other bishops will be able to step in to cover Ebbsfleet events and engagements, as happened last time the See was vacant, until a new bishop is in post. I hope and pray that any time of vacancy will be brief.
Please be assured of my continuing prayers for our common life and mission,
Yours in Christ
+Jonathan
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Fifi
Shipmate
# 8151
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by rugbyplayingpriest:
Ebbsfleet to Fulham and Robin Ward to Ebbsfleet is my guess.
Will there be an Ebbsfleet left to go to? I thought resolution C was being revoked when/if the woman bishops vote gets through General Synod next month.
Wishful thinking on your part, perhaps. Have a look here.
Posts: 591 | From: Here | Registered: Aug 2004
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
A very important aspect of the appointment was making sure that we are clear (although the Archbishop cannot commit his successor) that Ebbsfleet is going to continue.
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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AngloCatholicDude
Shipmate
# 16476
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
A very important aspect of the appointment was making sure that we are clear (although the Archbishop cannot commit his successor) that Ebbsfleet is going to continue.
Indeed, I am sure a worthy successor will be appointed to +Ebbsfleet in due course.
I am also very pleased to see that +Jonathan Fulham will be based at St Dunstan in the West Church, Fleet Street. The place is dedicated to a former Bishop of London and Archbishop of Canterbury.
+Fulham will be based in Parochial Ministry at St Dunstan in the West Church, Fleet Street and it brings forth +Richard Londin's point of any new Bishop of Fulham will be more closely related to me as the Bishop of London in serving the Two Cities Area
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Trusting and Believing in the Catholic Tradition within the Church of England
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
Sorry, I've read that final paragraph several times and it makes no sense. In what way are you related to the bishops of London and Fulham?
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
Is Bishop Baker still a Freemason?
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Is Bishop Baker still a Freemason?
No.
erm maybe shhh.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
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Fifi
Shipmate
# 8151
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Is Bishop Baker still a Freemason?
No.
Non.
Nein.
Nej.
Nie.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Sorry, I've read that final paragraph several times and it makes no sense. In what way are you related to the bishops of London and Fulham?
I think the last sentence was quoting Bishop Richard's previous press release, without inverted commas.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Can you cease to be a Freemason? Isn't there a bloodcurdling fate prescribed for people who do?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Aggie
Ship's cat
# 4385
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Can you cease to be a Freemason? Isn't there a bloodcurdling fate prescribed for people who do?
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
No, absolutely not!
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“I see his blood upon the rose
And in the stars the glory of his eyes,
His body gleams amid eternal snows,
His tears fall from the skies.”
(Joseph Mary Plunkett 1887-1917)
Posts: 581 | From: A crazy, crazy world | Registered: Apr 2003
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
As Bishop Jonathan made very clear, he resigned from the Masons because he didn't want anything to detract from his episcopal ministry.
He resigned. He is no longer a Mason.
Now all his funny dressing up is as a builder-up of the Kingdom rather than as a builder of mediaeval cathedrals or whatever it is they're pretending to do with their pseudo-spiritual, rolled-up trouser legs.
Thurible
[ 01. November 2012, 11:01: Message edited by: Thurible ]
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
As Bishop Jonathan made very clear, he resigned from the Masons because he didn't want anything to detract from his episcopal ministry.
You mean rather than they were a bunch of heretical, patriachal fools who any Christian should have issues with (never mind an Ordained one)?
Fly Safe, Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
As Bishop Jonathan made very clear, he resigned from the Masons because he didn't want anything to detract from his episcopal ministry.
You mean rather than they were a bunch of heretical, patriachal fools who any Christian should have issues with (never mind an Ordained one)?
If you would like to understand my sentence as finishing "...episcopal ministry, not least his membership of a bunch of...", that would be reasonable.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fifi:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by rugbyplayingpriest:
Ebbsfleet to Fulham and Robin Ward to Ebbsfleet is my guess.
Will there be an Ebbsfleet left to go to? I thought resolution C was being revoked when/if the woman bishops vote gets through General Synod next month.
Wishful thinking on your part, perhaps. Have a look here.
Not at all wishful - I am a supporter of the rights of Resolution ABC parishes despite being strongly in favour of the OOW. i despair of the intolerance of others of my 'integrity'.
The previous Bp. of Ebbsfleet said quote:
There will be no more 'flying bishops', no more Beverley, Ebbsfleet, and Richborough.
here.
As I understand it, every attempt to keep flying bishops has been voted out by synod.
There could be a new bp. of Ebbsfleet but he won't have the same role under a code of practice - which why FiF's mantra remains that such a code 'won't do'.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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+Chrism
Apprentice
# 17032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Fifi:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by rugbyplayingpriest:
Ebbsfleet to Fulham and Robin Ward to Ebbsfleet is my guess.
Will there be an Ebbsfleet left to go to? I thought resolution C was being revoked when/if the woman bishops vote gets through General Synod next month.
Wishful thinking on your part, perhaps. Have a look here.
Not at all wishful - I am a supporter of the rights of Resolution ABC parishes despite being strongly in favour of the OOW. i despair of the intolerance of others of my 'integrity'.
The previous Bp. of Ebbsfleet said quote:
There will be no more 'flying bishops', no more Beverley, Ebbsfleet, and Richborough.
here.
As I understand it, every attempt to keep flying bishops has been voted out by synod.
There could be a new bp. of Ebbsfleet but he won't have the same role under a code of practice - which why FiF's mantra remains that such a code 'won't do'.
I am so glad by this appointment, it's exactly the person who I was informed was going to +Fulham.
+Jonathan Fulham(designate) renounced all involvement in Freemasonry upon appointment to +Ebbsfleet.
+Ebbsfleet will continue to fulfill his present role until the Archbishop says otherwise.
Although certain people may be upset about him leaving or question his loyalty to +Ebbsfleet but +Jonathan weighed up his options both personal and spiritual which bought him to the conclusion that that it will be wise to move on from +Ebbsfleet.
+Ebbsfleet consultation will start shortly, so let's send very good names in and it will be completed once the New Archbishop takes office but I am sure +Sentamu will have a hand in the appointment process
I hope that +David Houlding is made a Bishop one day, although I doubt he'd accept such an offer. The logic that those who want to be Bishops shouldn't is always necessarily true
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+In Nomine Patris Et Filio Sancti
Posts: 38 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2012
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
The previous Bp. of Ebbsfleet said
quote: There will be no more 'flying bishops', no more Beverley, Ebbsfleet, and Richborough.
Propaganda, it's such a strong word. Yet I struggle to find a better one.
Fly Safe, Flying Bishops, Pyx_e
p.s. good trump Leo, I LOLed.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
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Fifi
Shipmate
# 8151
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The previous Bp. of Ebbsfleet said quote:
There will be no more 'flying bishops', no more Beverley, Ebbsfleet, and Richborough.
here.
Well, he would have said that, wouldn't he?
And, no, a Code of Practice still will not do. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Posts: 591 | From: Here | Registered: Aug 2004
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+Chrism
Apprentice
# 17032
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Posted
quote:
And, no, a Code of Practice still will not do.
Amen, A code of practice will not do
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+In Nomine Patris Et Filio Sancti
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Oh yes it will.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Do you mean that you genuinely think a Code of Practice will be appropriate provision and will provide that which Catholics within the CofE feel that they need to continue with integrity
OR that they'll cope with it, in the sense that they've coped with the sub-Catholic ecclesiology of past generations
OR that they'll have to like it because that's all they'll possibly get?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
OR that they'll cope with it, in the sense that they've coped with the sub-Catholic ecclesiology of past generations
You mean, like Flying Bishops?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Yes, that would be one of the not-ideal things I was thinking of.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
OR that they'll cope with it, in the sense that they've coped with the sub-Catholic ecclesiology of past generations
OR that they'll have to like it because that's all they'll possibly get?
Those two sound liekly tome.
They could possibky have got more if they had made it clearer wehat they actually wanted rather than harping on about the e third province fantasy - which is obviously a complete non-starter and must have been meant as a negotiating position rather than a concrete demand.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
OR that they'll cope with it, in the sense that they've coped with the sub-Catholic ecclesiology of past generations
You mean, like Flying Bishops?
Although this is not what Angloid meant, it did remind me that it is fallacious when it is claimed that bishops with jurisdiction other than that provided by the topology of old English counties is 'less catholic'.
Episcopal or ecclesiastical authority has not always been geographical. Traditionally the Regular clergy were/are under the authority of their Abbots or Superiors and, most certainly within the RC Benedictine tradition and some others, this has excluded the authority of the local diocesan.
There is also the notion of the personal prelature. Opus Dei priests (those ordained to Opus rather than parish clergy who happen to be members) are under the episcope of the leadership in Rome. The Ordinariate has a slightly similar set up. Jesuits, as Regular clergy, have their own regional hierarchy, the Master General in Rome and, of course, the pope. It rarely includes the local diocesan.
Episcopacy can be exercised in various non-geographically based forms, but is none the less 'catholic' in its fullness.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Episcopal or ecclesiastical authority has not always been geographical. Traditionally the Regular clergy were/are under the authority of their Abbots or Superiors and, most certainly within the RC Benedictine tradition and some others, this has excluded the authority of the local diocesan.
That may be true elsewhere, but I'm under the impression this has been something the CofE has largely, and usually consistently, repudiated since the Reformation. With the exception of Royal Peculiars, is anyone allowed to be totally outside the compass of the bishop of the diocese in which they happen to be?
Even those who are currently allowed alternative oversight are not totally let off being part of the diocese they really belong to.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Just for information: in the RC Church is is true there are authorities other than that of the diocesan bishop. However, in order to function anywhere the diocesan bishop's prior permission is necessary. Thus, for example, Cardinal Hume was able to circumscribe the activities of Opus Dei in the Diocese of Westminster in the 1980s. More recently Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor eased some of that and there is now (an excellent) OD priest running one of the diocesan parishes.
Bottom line: if a bishop doesn't want you in his diocese, you can't come in.
This is reflected in the Eucharistic Prayer where the local bishop is always mentioned after the Pope, whether you are a Jesuit, a Benedictine or a member of Opus Dei.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Episcopacy can be exercised in various non-geographically based forms, but is none the less 'catholic' in its fullness.
I'm sure we've been here before, and it's probably a Dead Horse, but there is a difference between (e.g.) a bishop to the Forces, whom even those outside his jurisdiction will recognise as a bishop and vice versa, and the asymmetrical system of 'flying bishops' which was set up specifically so that those under their jurisdiction didn't have to recognise the diocesan.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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