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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is it only bullying if there is no escape?
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
It doesn't matter. The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.
--Tom Clune
Kids need to learn any number of things. I'm at a loss to think of another situation where a kid's need to learn is said to justify a teacher's looking the other way.
Agreed, and Tom speaks perhaps of brief or minor bullying only. I'd like invite him to provide us information about how to cope. Or did he mean the one time bullying incident only?
It really bothers me those who suggest that people should stand up for themselves and learn to cope never, ever, never tell them how to stand up or how to cope. They just tell others to stand up or learn to cope. Most with experience of bullying and repeat bullying have had to figure it out for themselves, felt further labelled as weak, and when they finally retaliated, got mis-labelled as the aggressor. So please someone tell us how to learn to cope!
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
What if the whole point is to systematically dismantle the person's connection to their community? What if forcing the person to opt for your desire for their pariah-ship is actually the ultimate aim? What if forcing the person to 'escape' from the community to which they previously belonged is in fact the goal? Surely a person can be bullied out of their community? The option of 'escape' does not mean that it isn't bullying. On the contrary - it may in fact constitute the bullying. Surely the processes by which someone is made to contemplate escaping a community is, by definition, a form of bullying? Surely this is doubly true if those processes clearly involve abusive forms of communication such as name calling and mass hectoring?
[ 06. November 2012, 22:18: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
What if the whole point is to systematically dismantle the person's connection to their community? What if forcing the person to opt for your desire for their pariah-ship is actually the ultimate aim? What if forcing the person to 'escape' from the community to which they previously belonged is in fact the goal? Surely a person can be bullied out of their community? The option of 'escape' does not mean that it isn't bullying. On the contrary - it may in fact constitute the bullying. Surely the processes by which someone is made to contemplate escaping a community is, by definition, a form of bullying? Surely this is doubly true if those processes clearly involve abusive forms of communication such as name calling and mass hectoring?
Certainly in my former workplace I believe this was true. I was not objective enough at the time to see it as bullying; it's only hindsight that has helped me realize this.
nor do I think my bully was terribly cognizant of her campaign to drive me out: I don't think she is one who makes conscious decisions much at all, she's a very emotional person. I think she is generally a very miserable person, and anyone she finds threatening she feels the need to "bring down". My resignation just suited her needs to a T.
I suspect this is the case with a lot of bullies - basically miserable people projecting their pain onto someone who they target either because they seem an easy target or because the bully wants to bring them down for some reason - often, envy.
getting the target person to leave meets their goals in that it gets that person and what they represent to the bully out of their daily view.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
What if the whole point is to systematically dismantle the person's connection to their community? What if forcing the person to opt for your desire for their pariah-ship is actually the ultimate aim? What if forcing the person to 'escape' from the community to which they previously belonged is in fact the goal? Surely a person can be bullied out of their community? The option of 'escape' does not mean that it isn't bullying. On the contrary - it may in fact constitute the bullying. Surely the processes by which someone is made to contemplate escaping a community is, by definition, a form of bullying? Surely this is doubly true if those processes clearly involve abusive forms of communication such as name calling and mass hectoring?
I never thought about it that way before but I do believe you are correct.
And as comet has intimated, it may be a subconscious thing.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I suspect this is the case with a lot of bullies - basically miserable people projecting their pain onto someone who they target either because they seem an easy target or because the bully wants to bring them down for some reason - often, envy.
getting the target person to leave meets their goals in that it gets that person and what they represent to the bully out of their daily view.
Exactly right.
The problem for those who are left is that the bully invariably chooses a new target within a very short time.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Surely the processes by which someone is made to contemplate escaping a community is, by definition, a form of bullying? Surely this is doubly true if those processes clearly involve abusive forms of communication such as name calling and mass hectoring?
Yes - That's exactly what happened to me on a previous forum. I left in 2008, but still miss the people there. In my case it wasn't mass hectoring, it was one person who pursued me across the boards on a subject which they thought I was so wrong I needed hounding out.
They succeeded.
How much harder for those who are hounded out of jobs and livelihoods? Nearly always by people in positions of power.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
OK, let's look at this from a slightly different angle.
Consider the Phelps clan. They are indisputably nasty people who cause considerable misery to those whom they are targeting, even if strictly speaking they don't target any specific individual during their 'protests'. They are disruptive to the normal functioning of the community and a lot of people get rightly pissed off at them.
This means that a lot of people say a lot of things back to them and about them, and naturally a lot of those things are quite deliberately offensive. There's certainly lots of name-calling and hectoring. Indeed, all right-thinking people in the community want nothing more than for the Phelps clan to either shut up or go far, far away from the community.
Are the Phelpses being bullied? Or is it a legitimate response to the shit they're constantly coming out with?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Protecting children doesn't infantilise them: they're already infants.
Are you a native speaker of English?
--Tom Clune
WTF is that supposed to mean?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Without wishing to reference the Hell thread posts about bullying in their entirety, I think that this post from Twilight is worth copying and pasting here:
quote:
Originally posted by TwilightThis belief that it isn't bullying if it can be ignored is how bullying has lasted for so long in schools. People call you "Pizza faced ____" every day? Just ignore it. They beat you up on the way home? Walk another route or change schools or get your mother to quit work and home school you. Half the school gets on Facebook every afternoon and talks about how ugly you are? Turn off the computer.
And if the victim can't resist looking at the website, because it's a strong human instinct to listen when people are talking about you (and maybe hope someone will defend you) then it's her fault. If it all makes her start hating herself so much she kills herself then she probably would have done it for some other reason anyway -- no point in feeling guilty. On the other hand if she "changes," gets her nose fixed or "quits" being gay or apologizes and says you were right all along -- then the bully gets to take credit for building a better person. Neat.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
You're flirting with Godwin, Marvin.
But I think this article answers your question rather well.
You appear to be avoiding the question. Are folks like the Patriot Guard Riders bullies picking on the Phelps clan, or are they defending the rest of the community from the deleterious effects of the clan's behaviour?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
You're flirting with Godwin, Marvin.
But I think this article answers your question rather well.
You appear to be avoiding the question. Are folks like the Patriot Guard Riders bullies picking on the Phelps clan, or are they defending the rest of the community from the deleterious effects of the clan's behaviour?
The question at the end of the article asks, "COULD YOU SHOW... hospitality to someone spewing hate at you?" There's part of my answer right there.
Now, with regard to the the Phelps Clan and the Patriot Guard Riders: the two parties lay no claim to membership of the same community. There is no distinct community or "body corporate" (so to speak) to which they both wish to claim membership or incorporation. They are just independent parties conflicting over a public issue, not members a distinct community conflicting over matters of etiquette and shared values. So, I can't really answer your question because I don't think it actually addresses the issue under discussion.
[ 07. November 2012, 09:45: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The question at the end of the article asks, "COULD YOU SHOW... hospitality to someone spewing hate at you?" There's part of my answer right there.
So your answer is that we should lovingly welcome people whose only intention is to destroy everything we have tried to build? That we shouldn't do anything to protect ourselves or our community - and furthermore, than any such attempts are, in your opinion, bullying?
quote:
So, I can't really answer your question because I don't think it actually addresses the issue under discussion.
Bullshit, it's a perfect example of the dynamics that are in play in this discussion.
You're saying that anyone who attacks anyone else is a bully. I'm saying that when those attacks are a form of self-defence it is emphatically not bullying. You're then trying to redefine as many terms as you possibly can in order to avoid having to admit that I have a point.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
daronmedway on the Hell thread discussion on bullying that was sent back to Purgatory, described Hell calls as:
quote:
I'm challenging the bullshit notion that bullying behaviour is OK if the group has decided that the nasty little shit deserves it. That is a dangerous logical fallacy and you know it. Bullying behaviour is wrong, mousethief. The person may well well be nasty. The person may well be extremely irritating. But that doesn't give anyone permission to verbally abuse them for extended periods of time.
To which I responded
quote:
Hang on, daronmedway, so we're not allowed to challenge behaviour of others? And if you had read the thread, you'd have noticed that much of this is challenging behaviour. The abuse is not coming from one direction, only.
Daron then agreed that behaviour could be challenged here
It seems to me that there are two things being conflated here: the way the Ship uses Hell as a mechanism to contain and moderate behaviour and bullying.
I think if someone wanted to bully someone on an online forum there would be a whole raft of ways to do so that would be far clearer forms of bullying than a Hell call. Following that person around the boards and making counter posts or ridiculing everything that was said on everything that was posted, unpleasant personal messages, quoting and picking on their posts continually, posting personal information in such a way to embarrass but not out - lots of ways.
The sort of cyberbullying that young people experience is that sort of unrelenting inescapable attack, embarrassing photographs being posted and distributed, things that eat into life totally.
The Hell board is deliberately separate and a lot of Shipmates never go there.
[ 07. November 2012, 10:23: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I think if someone wanted to bully someone on an online forum there would be a whole raft of ways to do so that would be far clearer forms of bullying than a Hell call. Following that person around the boards and making counter posts or ridiculing everything that was said on everything that was posted, unpleasant personal messages, quoting and picking on their posts continually, posting personal information in such a way to embarrass but not out - lots of ways.
The sort of cyberbullying that young people experience is that sort of unrelenting inescapable attack, embarrassing photographs being posted and distributed, things that eat into life totally.
The Hell board is deliberately separate and a lot of Shipmates never go there.
I agree 100%.
If the forum I referred to had had the equivalent of Hell I think I'd still be there, I really needed a way to call them out on their behaviour. I had no way to reply to the person who followed me round ridiculing my posts, constantly by using reductio ad absurdum arguments, then laughing when I objected - I did advocate such a place but, sadly it didn't happen.
Many forums can learn a lot from Hell imo.
I just (in danger of being Styx-ish here) hope the hosts will close threads that outlive their purpose and become more like dogpiles - which, you have to admit, has happened more than once.
<typo>
[ 07. November 2012, 10:36: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The question at the end of the article asks, "COULD YOU SHOW... hospitality to someone spewing hate at you?" There's part of my answer right there.
So your answer is that we should lovingly welcome people whose only intention is to destroy everything we have tried to build?
Do you really think that the only intention the shipmates who have been dog-piled in Hell was to destroy everything that you've tried to build? Really? You call people names in Hell because you think you're protecting the Ship? Wow. That's really messed up. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
quote:
quote:
So, I can't really answer your question because I don't think it actually addresses the issue under discussion.
Bullshit, it's a perfect example of the dynamics that are in play in this discussion.
You're saying that anyone who attacks anyone else is a bully. I'm saying that when those attacks are a form of self-defence it is emphatically not bullying. You're then trying to redefine as many terms as you possibly can in order to avoid having to admit that I have a point.
Self defence? Seriously? Dog-piling is self-defence? Calling people names is self-defence?
As Will Self once wrote, "Some people lose their sense of perspective, I've lost my sense of scale."
Marvin, you really do sound as if you've lost both. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
[ 07. November 2012, 10:42: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Do you really think that the only intention the shipmates who have been dog-piled in Hell was to destroy everything that you've tried to build?
I'm talking about the principles that are in play in this discussion, which is about the definition of bullying. If we can agree on those basic principles, then we can start talking about whether they apply in any particular situation, should you so desire.
I picked the Phelps clan for my example because they're the best example of obviously-harmful people who attract a lot of opprobrium, and because I thought it would be perfectly straightforward to get us all to agree that such opprobrium is not bullying - and is, in fact, perfectly justified - in their case.
The idea is that once we've defined the two extremes of the spectrum from justified opprobrium to unjustified hounding, we can start exploring the rest of the spectrum and decide at what point the behaviour becomes (or ceases to be, depending on which end you're counting from!) "bullying".
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
daronmedway on the Hell thread discussion on bullying that was sent back to Purgatory, described Hell calls as:
quote:
I'm challenging the bullshit notion that bullying behaviour is OK if the group has decided that the nasty little shit deserves it. That is a dangerous logical fallacy and you know it. Bullying behaviour is wrong, mousethief. The person may well well be nasty. The person may well be extremely irritating. But that doesn't give anyone permission to verbally abuse them for extended periods of time.
To which I responded
quote:
Hang on, daronmedway, so we're not allowed to challenge behaviour of others? And if you had read the thread, you'd have noticed that much of this is challenging behaviour. The abuse is not coming from one direction, only.
Daron then agreed that behaviour could be challenged here
<snip>
The Hell board is deliberately separate and a lot of Shipmates never go there.
Yes, but most of the threads where name calling and protracted episodes of mass hectoring eventually occur are called Hell Calls. The offender is called to the thread. There's even an informal etiquette of PMing the shipmate being called. Yes, I do grant that participation is optional but let's not pretend that shipmates can happily ignore Hell calls and just carry on elsewhere on the boards as if nothing is happening.
That having been said, I do realise that the original purpose of most (if not all) hell calls is to resolve conflict, bring correction, or express irritation constructively. The problems, as I've said already, arise when Hell calls degenerate into "let's all outdo each other in calling a shipmate increasingly nasty names" until they plank themselves and then justify it as "self-defence". It just doesn't follow.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Host Hat On
The way Hell functions is a subject for discussion in the Styx, not here. And there is a live thread for that purpose (Dogpiling in Hell).
No more here please. Admin have already taken a strong line on this in Hell. You risk your posting privileges if you continue to post on the functioning of Hell here.
Barnabas62
Host Hat Off
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I picked the Phelps clan for my example because they're the best example of obviously-harmful people who attract a lot of opprobrium, and because I thought it would be perfectly straightforward to get us all to agree that such opprobrium is not bullying - and is, in fact, perfectly justified - in their case.
And the woman about to be stoned for adultery?
You never did engage with that one.
Adultery is obviously harmful.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Protecting children doesn't infantilise them: they're already infants.
Are you a native speaker of English?
--Tom Clune
WTF is that supposed to mean?
I'm not thrilled that this lame thread has been resurrected, but I will answer this for you, Matt. I cannot imagine that any native speaker of English would not know that, while all infants are children, not all children are infants. For example, a 12 year old would be universlly recognized as a child and universally recognized as not an infant. The only way that I can make sense out of D's comment is if he is not familiar with the English language. I thought that would have been clear from what I said, but apparently not. I trust this clears up your confusion.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Protecting children doesn't infantilise them: they're already infants.
Are you a native speaker of English?
--Tom Clune
WTF is that supposed to mean?
I'm not thrilled that this lame thread has been resurrected, but I will answer this for you, Matt. I cannot imagine that any native speaker of English would not know that, while all infants are children, not all children are infants. For example, a 12 year old would be universlly recognized as a child and universally recognized as not an infant. The only way that I can make sense out of D's comment is if he is not familiar with the English language. I thought that would have been clear from what I said, but apparently not. I trust this clears up your confusion.
--Tom Clune
Well, strictly speaking an infant is a very young child which is not yet able to speak. But in Britain children are considered infants up to age of about 7. This is because, broadly speaking, primary schools are comprised of Infants (Key Stage 1) and Juniors (Key Stage 2).. So, I guess I take your point. Not that it is a very good one, or that it has changed my mind concerning anything we were discussing.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
In future, Tom Clune, I will seek the advice of a Purgatory Host prior to bumping posts up after they have slipped from page one; I thought it might be helpful in this case, but will seek advice prior to doing so in future.
I hope that helps!
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
In future, Tom Clune, I will seek the advice of a Purgatory Host prior to bumping posts up after they have slipped from page one; I thought it might be helpful in this case, but will seek advice prior to doing so in future.
I hope that helps!
There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to seek the approval of a host for this kind of thing. My personal unhappiness to see the thread revived means nothing. You did nothing wrong, and need not get anyone's permission to bump a thread. Apparently, a fair number of other Purgatory posters are happy to see it revived. Ah, well...
--Tom Clune, Purgatory Host
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
For what it is worth, I am mostly convinced by comet's postings to change some of my views on whether it is still bullying if one can simply walk away; I could at times agree now that intentionally or subconscienciously causing someone to walk away may well be bullying, after all.
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
Sorry for the double post; just wanted to add that this type of bullying behaviour is not something which I believe I have ever done intentionally here on the Ship, nor do I plan to - ever.
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
Today's Independent offers a rather interesting article on the issue of bullying 'Why I'm thankful I was bullied.' Unusual perspective!
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Today's Independent offers a rather interesting article on the issue of bullying 'Why I'm thankful I was bullied.' Unusual perspective!
He says this of himself -
quote:
I was arrogant, showy, aloof, judgemental, critical, selfish and unsociable. To put it simply, I needed my worst traits bullying out of me. Just as my braces straightened out my teeth, so classmates beat out my obnoxiousness.
But he was a small child! I think he's rationalising a bad situation in order to be able to live with it.
No child, however obnoxious, deserves such treatment.
I know kids who are arrogant, showy, selfish and unsociable. Sometimes they come to me and say 'Nobody likes me'. It's pretty hard to answer them, but they need the mirror of self awareness, not a sound beating!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
But how do you create that mirror of self-awareness? Peers sometimes are the only way.
One of my friends at university had a BO problem and his mates decided he needed to sort it. You'd hear them every so often telling him "You smell". He'd disappear and come back showered and changed. He appreciated being told so - it made the difference between getting a girlfriend and a job and not. But outsiders were horrified and muttered about bullying.
Within education, there are suggestions on how to support youngsters towards self-awareness. The Excellence in Cities strand funded Learning Mentors to work with children and young people who were struggling for whatever reason, and their materials include self-esteem and friendship activities, SEAL and SEBS (Social and Emotional Aspects of Learning and Social, Emotional and Behavioural Studies) also are hoping to tackle these sorts of issues. But an adult intervening doesn't work unless the child sees a problem - and their peer group rejecting them can sometimes be the clue that they need to change and get help on how to do so.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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PerkyEars
slightly distracted
# 9577
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Posted
quote:
It doesn't matter. The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
tclune I almost called you to hell over your remarks in this thread, but I'll try setting it out here instead.
What about the child who comes to school with poor social skills and self esteem because they are abused at home, and simply isn't able to cope with yet another layer of trauma?
That was me. It was teachers with your level of insight and compassion that turned a blind eye while I went through ten years of hell. Perhaps they all hoped that the next day or year I would 'learn to cope'.
There are many others who just can't cope without assistance. Children on the autistic spectrum. Children with mild learning difficulties. I know many, many adults who are still healing from childhood bullying. They didn't cope. Why is that? Is that their fault? I also know adults who claim to be 'glad' they were bullied as it 'toughened them up', but their cynicism and low self-worth is on their sleeve for everyone else to see even if they can't.
What makes it harder for both vulnerable and average children is that a school culture of adults ignoring it serves to legitimise it. If children do not see adults take a stand against any behavior, then by default they understand that behaviour is normal. When this happens, children do not understand the bully as a bad person, and learn to understand and cope with the fact that there are bad or antagonistic people in the world. What they understand is that they themselves are bad. Others have spoken about a bullying culture in workplaces - it makes bullying harder to survive and stand against as it is the norm. Adults ignoring it in schools runs the strong risk of creating exactly this kind of culture.
Tom Clune - I hope you're speaking in ignorance rather than callousness. If it's callousness I hope it's not as a result of your own experiences of bullying. It would prove my point.
Posts: 532 | From: Bristol | Registered: May 2005
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
Thanks for some insightful responses to the article I linked to; I think this does open up the conversation. Let's be clear - there are some forms of 'bullying' that all would condone: the person making sexist or racist remarks in public clearly deserves almost all the verbal attacks they receive. So at one end of the spectrum, 'bullying' is an appropriate response to socially unacceptable behaviour.
At the other end of the spectrum, the child who is bullied as a result of being on the autistic spectrum, having learning difficulties or some visible disability, is unambiguously in need of protection.
So what is needed is intelligent intervention. The primary source for this should be the family, and I do wonder if the rise of bullying is in part a result of the breakdown of extended families and smaller family sizes. In a society where the children would all be part of a wider 'clan', that clan would (in an ideal world) protect their own from the unfair bullying, whilst (ideally) helping the young person to address their legitimate issues of concern. (I find it fascinating how many of the heroes in the bible are younger siblings - e.g. Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David and Josiah); the only clear counter example is Jesus). However smaller family sizes combined with high mobility have destroyed this prospect, leaving most children largely isolated when they enter the school environment. Whilst there is some prospect of parents being able to help with the issues, in reality many are not equipped to deal effectively with them; we are therefore in effect facing a new problem, or at least substantially more serious than it was in the past as a result of long term social changes. Where IS the only child of mobile parents going to learn their social skills? There are no easy solutions - but a recognition of WHY it is far more common for it to be problematic now might help focus professionals', especially teachers', attention on the matter.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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PerkyEars
slightly distracted
# 9577
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Posted
That's a really good point Enders Shadow, and a link I'd not seen before between community disintegration and bullying. Perhaps children who feel at liberty to bully would not do so if they felt their victims and their families were part of the same community as themselves and their own families. Many of those who were bullied at my school were 'others' in the wider community - travellers, or those who's parents kept to themselves.
If children meet up out of school with other families, if they share a street, a church, a club, if their parents know each other and talk to each other, then I'm guessing bullying falls dramatically between those children. My gut feeling is that those primitive responses of scapegoating and ostracising that children are trying out just don't come into play as much when everyone is an insider. I wonder what the statistics are for bullying in small village schools, where the families are likely to know each other? It does seem to me that the most horrendous tales come from boarding schools, where everyone is ripped from a community context.
Posts: 532 | From: Bristol | Registered: May 2005
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
I do wonder if the rise of bullying is in part a result of the breakdown of extended families and smaller family sizes. In a society where the children would all be part of a wider 'clan', that clan would (in an ideal world) protect their own from the unfair bullying
I suspect it is a rise in reporting of bullying rather than an absolute rise. I received sustained racist bullying as a child and it was clear to me that there was no value in reporting it.
If the "clan" back-up really did work in days gone by, then that would suggest that bullying was regularly escalated into feuds between clans, or a sort of mutually-assured-destruction-stand-off situation. Neither of which seem very credible to me.
Funny that you mention Joseph in your post. I can't imagine a more serious case of within-family-bullying.
And Jacob had a pretty dysfunctional family background.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I do grant that participation is optional but let's not pretend that shipmates can happily ignore Hell calls and just carry on elsewhere on the boards as if nothing is happening.
Not happily, no, but it seems that the more the person defends themself, the more people wade in and the longer the thread goes on...and on...and on.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PerkyEars:
quote:
It doesn't matter. The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.
tclune I almost called you to hell over your remarks in this thread, but I'll try setting it out here instead.
He also didn't answer when I posted about it. , which I quote below.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I'd like invite him to provide us information about how to cope. Or did he mean the one time bullying incident only?
It really bothers me those who suggest that people should stand up for themselves and learn to cope never, ever, never tell them how to stand up or how to cope. They just tell others to stand up or learn to cope. Most with experience of bullying and repeat bullying have had to figure it out for themselves, felt further labelled as weak, and when they finally retaliated, got mis-labelled as the aggressor. So please someone tell us how to learn to cope!
He may be disinterested, even though some of the rest of us remain interested, viz.,
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
I'm not thrilled that this lame thread has been resurrected,
What do you say tclune? Can we please get enlightened on how to learn to cope with bullying?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
What do you say tclune? Can we please get enlightened on how to learn to cope with bullying?
No, learning to cope is learning to cope. How you do that will depend on you. For example, I learned to fight those who bullied me when I moved to a new town. Sometimes I won, sometimes I lost, but the bullies found someone else to bother.
I don't recommend that for everyone -- your coping strategies are your own. This should not be a mystery to an adult. My point, as I thought I made clear, was that there will always be bullies in the world, and part of learning how to live in this world is learning those coping strategies that work for you. You may disagree with my view. You may feel the need to call me to Hell. Knock yourself out. But I will not be responding to any more of these posts. Get over it.
--Tom Clune
[ 09. November 2012, 00:26: Message edited by: tclune ]
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This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
What do you say tclune? Can we please get enlightened on how to learn to cope with bullying?
No, learning to cope is learning to cope. How you do that will depend on you. For example, I learned to fight those who bullied me when I moved to a new town. Sometimes I won, sometimes I lost, but the bullies found someone else to bother.
I don't recommend that for everyone -- your coping strategies are your own. This should not be a mystery to an adult. My point, as I thought I made clear, was that there will always be bullies in the world, and part of learning how to live in this world is learning those coping strategies that work for you. You may disagree with my view. You may feel the need to call me to Hell. Knock yourself out. But I will not be responding to any more of these posts. Get over it.
--Tom Clune
Thanks for your response. Your posted something rather provocative in the view of at least a couple of us, which we felt deserved a response. Attitude not necessary.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
On a lighter note:
"The door is a bully - it knocked me down!"
(from Anthony A. one of the grammar school pupils I teach. He is referring to the pneumatically-closing door at the front of his classroom: it is steel-clad and quite heavy!)
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
You're flirting with Godwin, Marvin.
Anyone who says, "People being bullied need to learn to cope" automatically invokes Godwin and can't whine when the comparison is made. It's a shit thing to say and it disproved by Godwinian history. It is a blame-the-victim strategy to legitimize bullying.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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