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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Helicopter parents
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I saw a story on Huffington Post stating that a young woman who is a senior at the University of Cincinnati has obtained a restraining order against her parents, who were intruding into every detail of her life. They in turn claim she has mental problems (despite being on the dean's list) and they now demand back all the money they have invested in her college education. She is an only child. The court and the school have sided decisively with the student (who is, after all, old enough to drink, drive, marry, enlist, sign binding contracts, etc.).
While this sounds to me like an unusually dysfunctional family, I don't think the helicopter parent phenomenon is at all unusual. In my own teaching, I have encountered one or two such. I also tend to side with the student. I can see plenty of grief in her life deriving from her parents' interference; for instance, I can't imagine a man marrying into such a family.
Is this mostly an American phenomenon? Are there countries in which the parents' behavior would be considered normal or expected? Are there better and worse ways to handle it?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
While this sounds to me like an unusually dysfunctional family, I don't think the helicopter parent phenomenon is at all unusual. In my own teaching, I have encountered one or two such. I also tend to side with the student.
Well, in the US, the parents are going into debt up to their eyeballs to pay your salary. If you want the student to be treated as an adult by the parents, lower your damned rates so the parents aren't indentured to your institution for the rest of their lives.
Frankly, I find the arrogance of colleges insulting. The only thing they want from the parents is an endless supply of money with no accountability. If you can see anything "adult" about that, you are as immature as your students. Or so ISTM.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
Wow, Tom! I didn't see the OP heading in that direction at all!
However, HCH, I would observe that the only thing "new" about helicopter parents is the term. After all, it wasn't that many centuries ago that parents were arranging their children's marriages. And, if I understand correctly, in some cultures today that is still not unheard of. While you did not give details as to how the parents in the case you mention were "intruding into every detail" of their daughter's life, I would think that "choosing spouse" would have to trump it. In short, culture plays a big part in this. And, considering the wide variety of cultures represented in the US, it would be interesting to know the cultural background of the participants in your story.
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
They in turn claim she has mental problems (despite being on the dean's list) and they now demand back all the money they have invested in her college education.
I'd hate to be their lawyer trying to make that argument. Unless there are some undisclosed facts, I don't see any connection between "our daughter is crazy" and "give back the money we paid you."
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I believe that in fact most American college students are not solely funded by their parents. Many of them are paying for their educations with loans that may haunt them for many years. (That is a topic for some other thread.)
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
We have paid our son's (massive) college fees and would do so over again! I see no problem there.
But - you pay the money then let it GO. It is no longer your cash. My MIL would give presents then, years after, ask about them. Nope - a gift is a gift full stop.
I had to google 'helicopter parents' but recognised them immediately. You get a couple in every class - and they start their hovering from the Nursery class onwards!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
I believe that in fact most American college students are not solely funded by their parents. Many of them are paying for their educations with loans that may haunt them for many years. (That is a topic for some other thread.)
First, it is not a topic for another thread -- it is a major motivation for parents to make sure that they are not impoverishing themselves without getting any value in return. And, AFAIK, not many children are able to borrow $140-200 K without at least a parental co-sign, and not very many parents have the credit for that without putting their house up for collateral.
I know an awful lot of parents who were put in that vice, and more than a few have had to delay their retirement to pay off the absurd tuition for a child with a history degree and no visible means of support. The amazing thing is not the occasional helicopter parent, but the vast number of parents who place their retirement in jeopardy without injecting themselves into every detail of their children's education.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
I believe that in fact most American college students are not solely funded by their parents. Many of them are paying for their educations with loans that may haunt them for many years. (That is a topic for some other thread.)
Both. I teach at a private American univ. While our tuition is lower than many, it's still unsupportable. Our students generally fund their education though a toxic combination of maxing out parental savings, maxing out parental loans (including 2nd or 3rd mortgages on a home which may be underwater), working 20-40 hrs/week while maintaining a full load of classes, and maxing out student loans that yes, will haunt them (even as their parent's loans jeopardize their retirement).
It's unsustainable. No one knows that more than faculty, who are watching out students struggle with this witch's brew every day. But because faculty salaries are not a large component of the rise in costs (and adjunct salaries are barely minimum wage) there's not a lot we can do about it.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
the helicopter parent phenomenon
What a stupid expression! Who coined that one? Why is it that the media have to coin these stupid expressions to communicate simple ideas? America seems to be the source of more than their share of these, but the British press tries its best too.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I believe the term "helicopter parents" refers to parents who hover over their children.
A response to Tom Clune: I think there are more topics for discussion here than must the cost of a college education. I think you can find examples of parents who hover over their children's careers, marriages, purchase of a house or a car, decisions about vacation trips, housekeeping, the raising of the grandchildren, etc.
I keep expecting some ship mate to mention "Honor they father and mother". I think that could lead to some juicy comments.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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nickel
Shipmate
# 8363
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Posted
I think the term "helicopter parenting" refers to situations in which mom or dad go way beyond a normal caring concern for the child and family resources. I can (and am!) concerned about my daughter's job prospects as she leaves her college this year, but I recognize it's her life to live. She's a smart kid and I'm not worried in the long run, but being 30 years older than her I see very clearly that she's simply inexperienced in so many things. It's tough sometimes holding my tongue, but she's got to make her own mistakes, big and little. I think helicopter parents aren't willing to let their offspring make even a "little" mis-step. Not healthy for the kid involved.
Cultures in which marriages are arranged might still allow the persons to find their own way ahead in the marriage - so I don't call that helicoptering, necessarily.
My guess is that 'true' helicoptering isn't an American or a recent phenomena; rather it's an extreme on a continuum of parental concern and involvement from "way too much" to "way too little" that occurs everywhere. But that's just a guess, I am interested to see what others have to say.
Is helicoptering -- controlling out of an overabundance of love and caution -- the same as controlling your child's for selfish reasons? (I'm thinking of daughters who were expected to remain in the household to take care of aging parents.)
Posts: 547 | From: Virginia USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
But because faculty salaries are not a large component of the rise in costs
What's driving costs in the US, then? I lecture in the UK, where staff costs are a very large proportion of our budget. A large-ish (and often quite senior) non-academic management structure has arisen to keep the wheels on a massive increase in centralised admin and procedure, but even that is getting knocked back in current rounds of redundancy.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
A response to Tom Clune: I think there are more topics for discussion here than must the cost of a college education. I think you can find examples of parents who hover over their children's careers, marriages, purchase of a house or a car, decisions about vacation trips, housekeeping, the raising of the grandchildren, etc.
I have heard of parents showing up at their offspring's job interviews. I would think that would completely kill the offspring's chance of getting the job.
Moo
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
I think competition is part of it. As noted, kids are inexperienced and vulnerable to any number of comparatively innocent mistakes. Parents realize that their future lives depend in part on the success of their children, and so they seek to minimize this risk. I suppose reasonable that there's a certain fine line between non-involvement and over-involvement that's ideal, but some parents probably use helicopter parenting as a way to try to relieve some of that anxiety.
Arranged marriages are part of this (again, parents trying to provide security for their offspring) and I think different cultures have different amounts of arrangement that are deemed acceptable, but it's the same drive, especially (I imagine) for the bride's family in a patriarchal society.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I think parents are entitled to do a certain amount of "hovering" over their college-age child if they are footing a significant part of the bill for that college education. No, not to the point of intruding into every aspect of a 21-year-old's life, but certainly to the point of being aware of how they're spending their time, what their grades are, and whether there's any likelihood of my significant financial investment (which is what I think it is, rather than a gift that you should "give and let go,") is likely to result in a college degree.
Of course, my kids are not yet college aged so I don't really know. But my parents paid for most of my college education and I certainly considered myself accountable to them throughout those years in return for that financial support. If you want complete independence from your parents, then you'd better be self-supporting.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
The parents in this case installed monitoring software on the daughter's computer and phone. I'd have cut off all communication as well as filed a restraining order if my parents had done that. They also required her to keep her skype connected to them every minute she was in her dorm room. They even watched her all night long! They've accused her of mental illness without evidence and promiscuity. (How she could possibly have a relationship of any kind under the circumstances. These parents went WAY over the line. The judge agreed and the university also gave the daughter a full ride for her senior year.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
I know an awful lot of parents who were put in that vice, and more than a few have had to delay their retirement to pay off the absurd tuition for a child with a history degree and no visible means of support.
--Tom Clune
This is as much the parent's fault as the child's.
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Arranged marriages are part of this (again, parents trying to provide security for their offspring) and I think different cultures have different amounts of arrangement that are deemed acceptable, but it's the same drive, especially (I imagine) for the bride's family in a patriarchal society.
Depends on the culture and the parents, but in many it is the parent's security being purchased by the marriage(and/or education) of the offspring.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
But because faculty salaries are not a large component of the rise in costs
What's driving costs in the US, then?
Fresh Air did a story on that a few months back.
Turns out there are fewer professors, more administrators, and more buildings. Lots more buildings. And semi-pro sports programs.
And there is far less government support for higher education than there used to be. It used to be that state universities were largely funded by the state. Student tuition paid only a small portion of the cost. That's not true any more.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Maybe the girl had given her parents cause to be concerned for her welfare. When my son was 16 we would send him off to college each day with lunch etc (he was living at home), paid his fees, looked after his needs, only to find after 6 months that he had not attended one class in that time, but had squandered everything on drugs.He had been stealing from us and generally doing the wrong thing. We became very cautious with our daughters after this experience. It is difficult to know fully what goes on in other people's lives and any comments should only be made based on full knowledge of the circumstances.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I think maybe we've got another word confusion thing going on here--the girl in the OP is at university (often called "college" in the States), not late high school (which I gather is called "college" in some places?). She is in her twenties already.
If her parents really thought her mentally ill, and seriously enough to keep a constant electronic leash on her, they really should have had her committed for treatment. A situation grave enough to require 24 hour surveillance is probably one where they could easily produce enough evidence to satisfy a judge. At the very least, they shouldn't have aided her financially to attend university so far from the help/monitoring of home. It does sound like it's the parents who have the problem to me.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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BWSmith
Shipmate
# 2981
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Posted
"Helicopter parents" is a media snarl-word designed to intrude in the relationship between parents and their children.
It suggests that there is some pseudo-statistical degree of "parental involvement" that counts as "normal", and the parents in question are violating that.
Human relationships are tough, and highly subjective. Parenting is toughest. Every child thinks their parents are "helicopter parents" when things aren't going well.
Posts: 722 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
Parental involvement in schools is good, but taking it to the point that it exasperates their children's teachers and obstructs them from doing their job is not.
I've also heard helicopter parenting defined as driving their little fatty boombah kids to school regularly even when their age is in double digits and there are adequate school buses, public transport or the distance is less than 3 kilometres.
I know of secondary school teachers who have had to change their home or mobile phone numbers (even those which were already unlisted) thanks to helicopter parents chasing them to argue over grades. There's unlimited potential for disaster if these parents manage to wangle their way onto the board/council of a school, which is why when I graduate there's no way I'll be taking a job at a parent-controlled Christian school.
I have a distant relative whose wife is a classic helicopter parent (and also has other mental health issues), she would tell her daughters that they were only allowed to play in a certain area of the yard near the boundary fence at lunch so she could stand outside and watch them. The only way to stop this (and the constant bullying, both active and passive, resulting from it) was for the student counsellor to ask a friend to drive past and call the police about a suspicious person hanging around the school fence watching kids at break times.
As for the case in the OP, IMNSHO the judge and the university got it right.
A note about contributions from Australian shipmates - "college" generally means a private school which has both primary and secondary years. It used to also mean that there were residential boarding facilities attached, but it doesn't have that meaning attached these days and there are many private schools referred to as XYZ College which don't have any history of residential boarding at all.
I do understand the US use of "college" as informally referring to undergraduate studies at an institution which may be a university (depending on your understanding of "university," for me that requires both teaching and research). Instead of saying a kid has graduated from school and gone to college, in Australia we would say they had graduated and gone to uni even if they've gone to some other tertiary education institution that is not a university.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Oh where to start? Parents unwilling to give up their role, parents living vicariously through their children, parents as control freaks, parents unable to accept their own ageing, grownups enslaved to the father of lies’ ideal that money = happiness = success, parents unwilling to understand gift and even more unwilling to understand that if it is not a gift then there has to be a mutually understood and agreed contract. And for balance, yes there are blood sucking layabout entitled young people too, screw them also. And education establishments as revenue streams ..... by St Stephens stoned balls Im glad I’m an old fart.
Fly Safe, Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BWSmith:
"Helicopter parents" is a media snarl-word designed to intrude in the relationship between parents and their children.
Thank you for that. It's natural for parents to want to protect their children and it's natural for young people in their teens/early twenties to feel smothered by it all. That's long been the incentive for them to get their education and move out. They aren't really meant to have it both ways, independent lifestyle and financial support.
Speaking from personal experience, all of my parental regrets, and I have quite a list, center around not hovering enough rather than otherwise.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
But because faculty salaries are not a large component of the rise in costs
What's driving costs in the US, then?
Fresh Air did a story on that a few months back.
Turns out there are fewer professors, more administrators, and more buildings. Lots more buildings. And semi-pro sports programs.
And there is far less government support for higher education than there used to be. It used to be that state universities were largely funded by the state. Student tuition paid only a small portion of the cost. That's not true any more.
I think as well that in the US, education costs have risen for similar reasons that health care costs have. Both are immune to market forces, yet a large segment of our country believes in the invisible "market forces" that will bring every commodity in line.
With many commodities, of course, that works. If beef becomes too expensive, at a certain point, people will just start eating more pork or poultry. But that doesn't work for health care-- no matter how much cost rise, no one is going to say "sorry, too expensive" to their child's life-saving treatment-- they will move heaven and earth and literally mortgage away their future to pay for it.
Really the same is true with higher ed. While there are a few voices that are questioning "is college ed. really worth it?" there aren't many, because, even at these ridiculously inflated prices, the answer is yes. Now more than ever, it demonstrably increases one's chances of finding employment, and increases compensation. So no parent is going to deny their child that advantage-- even when, again, it means literally mortgaging away your future. In fact, we're seeing far greater enrollment, including from "first college student in family" demographic, as unemployment rises.
So prices rise in both cases to a large degree because they can. Because there aren't, and never will be, the sorts of market pressures that would bring them down. Because of the type of commodity they are, because they aren't subject to those market forces, the only way to bring costs in line is some sort of government involvement.
In the past when there was heavy govt funding for state univ., that provided a market check. Private univ. like the one I teach at had to compete with these heavily subsidized univ., so they had to do everything they could to keep costs in line, to raise $$ for financial aid, and to provide some sort of "value added" to justify the additional tuition. Now that those govt subsidies are withering, the costs disparity is not as great, there's less pressure to keep costs down. Add to that the overcrowding of the state system, which means taking 6-8 years to complete your program (and begin earning) and a mere 4 yrs of private tuition starts to look like a better bargain.
[ 29. December 2012, 15:32: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
tclune: quote:
it is a major motivation for parents to make sure that they are not impoverishing themselves without getting any value in return.
What sort of return would you expect?
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
tclune: quote:
it is a major motivation for parents to make sure that they are not impoverishing themselves without getting any value in return.
What sort of return would you expect?
That my student is studying with the diligence that $40-50K/yr expenditure on my part deserves, and has given proper consideration to what s/he is studying for. This whole thing is way too expensive to be treated with the usual casual disregard of adolescents, and I would expect any decent college to understand that and act in concert with the parents' reasonable best interests for the student.
In reality, the only college that I ever encountered that showed any understanding of the real-world issues was Clark University in Worcester -- a truly wonderful institution. By far the most common attitude of schools is that parents are complete pains in the ass who should be contacted continuously for fund-raising and never for any other purpose. The school's interest in supporting the student directly is fully as indifferent in general as is its approach to the student's parents. There is extremely little to recommend most institutions of higher learning AFAICS.
--Tom Clune
[ 29. December 2012, 16:14: Message edited by: tclune ]
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
Just to throw one more thing into the mix: It used to be (50 years ago) that universities and (US) colleges acted in loco parentis toward their students. "Parietal" rules (which were supposed to govern the behavior of students "within the walls" of the school) were quite strict.
This changed many years ago in US society. Young people, ages 18-22, away from home for the first time in many cases, are tossed into a free-for-all. Some universities may still require freshman students to live in dorms, but even there, there are few rules and even less enforcement. Many students live entirely on their own, with a half-dozen possibly responsible roommates floating in and out and no structure at all. The hookup culture and the binge-drinking culture claim them, and the result is personal disaster. I've heard too many stories about all of this out of former students of mine not to grieve for it myself.
So I wonder whether "helicopter parenting" is not simply a natural reaction on the part of some parents? There seems to be no other social institution (except the military) willing to set limits and boundaries for young adults under its care, yet young adults need boundaries, because they are still developing their own internalized senses of what is right and fitting to do.
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Thanks Josephine, Cliffdweller.
quote:
Really the same is true with higher ed. While there are a few voices that are questioning "is college ed. really worth it?" there aren't many, because, even at these ridiculously inflated prices, the answer is yes.
We see a few (2 or 3 a year?) US students in my area - I suppose we can compete on cost. But why anyone comes on my taught MSc when (mostly) equivalent courses _taught in English_ are available to EU entrants TUITION-FREE in Sweden, is a total mystery to me. Send your kids to Sweden, folks.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
My mother attempted to helicopter when I went to University mostly, I think, because she hadn't been herself and didn't really understand it. She kept worrying that I would be chucked out for wearing jeans, and bought me dry-clean only skirts to wear to lectures. Plus she worried about me drinking coffee. And owning a cheque book; she didn't have a cheque book herself, and wasn't convinced it was safe for me to have one.
She used to regularly tell me that she couldn't sleep for worrying about me, and that I was making her ill with worry. Fortunately my University was 100 miles away from my home, so there was a limit to how much she could hover, but it was still a major pain.
It didn't stop; she went through the same you-are-making-me-ill-with-worry routine when I got married at the "too young" age of 24, and again when I had my children.
In fairness to Mum, I think she found my world bewildering. Although we grew up in the same area geographically, Mum was 13 before her home got a inside toilet which flushed, and into her late 20s before electricity reached the bit of Scotland she was in. I have a photo on my desk of my mother as a child standing beside the outside pump where they got their water, just to remind me how different the experiences of two generations can be.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
tclune: quote:
it is a major motivation for parents to make sure that they are not impoverishing themselves without getting any value in return.
What sort of return would you expect?
That my student is studying with the diligence that $40-50K/yr expenditure on my part deserves, and has given proper consideration to what s/he is studying for. This whole thing is way too expensive to be treated with the usual casual disregard of adolescents, and I would expect any decent college to understand that and act in concert with the parents' reasonable best interests for the student.
As both a parent and a prof., I would agree that it makes sense to expect our offspring to appreciate the financial sacrifice and honor that by giving their studies their full attention. Unfortunately, that doesn't coincide well with the normal developmental age characteristics of 18-20 year olds. Part of separating is experimenting with breaking the rules-- partying, staying out too late, etc. Figuring out how counter-productive that is (and why parents forbid it when they have more control) is most often a learn-from-you-mistakes process. But, yes, far easier to be philosophical about that when you haven't invested $20K ore more.
Back in the days when community colleges were an inexpensive and viable option, it made sense to have that halfway step for these newly adults to begin making those steps w/o the financial investment. Unfortunately, in many places they have been so shredded they only make things worse-- if you can only get into one class a semester, that leaves a whole lotta time for partying w/o learning the necessary discipline. Given that, I've become enamored with the cross-pond tradition of a gap year, would like to see that take off here.
In terms of the univ. "acting in concert" with parental reasonable requests, I'm not sure what you have in mind there. We are laboring under federal privacy laws here that restrict our ability to reveal pretty much anything to parents about grades, residential life, etc. This last semester I had a student where I had significant mental health concerns. I was able to work with univ. counseling center to provide some much-needed intervention, but was not able to contact the parents and let them know-- even though, as a parent, it is something I would want to know in similar circumstances.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I find the whole "protecting your investment" idea to be a bizarre one. Not least because the surefire way of making sure your offspring's degree is useless is to infantilise them and stop them developing the capacity to make and fix mistakes on their own. Universities are fairly forgiving places when it comes to screwing things up, far more so than workplaces. It's far better that your kids screw up at uni where they can put it right as opposed to doing something foolish in the workplace that can wreck their career.
For the record my parents had the good sense not to interfere with my life at university. This may or may not have been made easier by the fact that they didn't have to pay for it (I was among the last to get their degree without paying any fees at all and my living expenses were covered by a loan). Despite their hands off attitude I managed to get through university without ever having got drunk or sleeping with anyone who wasn't my wife (having got married at the end of my 2nd year).
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I find the whole "protecting your investment" idea to be a bizarre one. Not least because the surefire way of making sure your offspring's degree is useless is to infantilise them and stop them developing the capacity to make and fix mistakes on their own. Universities are fairly forgiving places when it comes to screwing things up, far more so than workplaces. It's far better that your kids screw up at uni where they can put it right as opposed to doing something foolish in the workplace that can wreck their career
All very true, but it's hard at the same time not to be sympathetic when parents have literally mortgaged the family home to put them there.
This has become particularly acute to me in the last few years, when I've found the demographic of my students dramatically changing. We have moved from a school almost exclusively made up of fairly privileged suburban students to predominantly lower income, inner city youth. Most are the first in their family to go to college. Their families really have put it all on the line-- they are "all in". In the past, my students would have the luxury of a semester or even two of screw ups. Their parents would be annoyed, no doubt, but they would read them the riot act, they'd go on academic probation for a semester or two, get their act together, and move on.
The students I have now can't do that. They are stretched to the max, living paycheck to paycheck-- or rather, student loan check to student loan check. If they screw up a semester, it's game over-- with significant consequences not only for their future, but for their entire family's.
At the same time, many of my students are less prepared for college and have a steeper learning curve than those I've had in the past, making the possibility of a "lost semester" all the more likely. Even more scary is the fact that they often aren't aware of all this until it's too late.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
Maybe this is just because I'm youngish, maybe it's because it hasn't been that long since I was looking at a career in academia, maybe it's just because I still read College Misery regularly, but helicopter parenting does happen, it sucks festering monkey balls for the instructors who have to deal with it, and it's rarely productive for any party involved. Seriously, what incentive do you have to actually try at your classes when you know mommy and daddy will be there to threaten lawsuits and argue with the adjunct or grad student teacher's department chair or dean when Little Sally or Sammy Snowflake gets busted for copying their essay from the Internet? You can have slam-dunk proof of plagiarism, slackitude, or just general incompetence, but an arguing parent means the kid gets their B+. A generation or two ago, people 18 to 22—or younger!—were generally getting married and having kids, and nobody thought they were too young for that; now, the Precious Widdle Snowflakes just can't be allowed to face down the consequences of their idiocy, now can they?
Yes, college in the US is freakishly expensive, and is only getting more so. Trust us, none of that new money is going to pay for instructors. When your rankings are dependent on how many top-flight students you can reject, you need more pampered, rich, cosseted applicants who happened to go to expensive private schools to apply; the fact that rich kids need less financial aid is also a plus. So you give them the amenities they expect—single rooms in plush dorms, gourmet catered meals, climbing walls and lazy rivers in the campus health club, and football or basketball programs that regularly send players to the NFL or NBA . . . and revive the fortunes of failing pro teams their rookie season. You pay for this, of course, not just by raising tuition, knowing full well that there are phenomenally wealthy people who can pay those rates out of pocket, but by cutting money in academic areas—library budgets are shit these days (which, for those of us who work in academic publishing and sell to libraries, is a Problem), most departments are replacing tenure-track faculty (who cost generally $55-85k/year) with adjuncts (usually $3-4k/class, or $15-18k/year), and, between government cutbacks in research grants and university "funding issues," research funding (especially in the arts, humanities, and social sciences, where it was never that plentiful to begin with) is nearing nothing.
So yes, there are some pretty serious problems in the American university system, problems that need to actually addressed rather than simply talked about—after all, the Chronicle of Higher Education seemingly runs at least three stories on this every issue! The idea that parents get to dictate what their legally adult children do with their lives, however, should border on the laughable. Rising college costs have kept it from being so, sadly.
*As a postscript, does this mean that parents get to use the "I'm buying your education, I get to say what it's in" argument to dictate the course of their child's life? My parents, for instance, weren't too happy when I dropped the biology major that was only of secondary interest to pursue philosophy; if I hadn't been on a full-ride scholarship, there might have been a tad more friction. Even now, there are still some comments about how I should really consider law school, all evidence on the job market for new lawyers in America notwithstanding. Really, do we want to give parents another way to control their offspring's lives?
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Ariston:
quote:
Even now, there are still some comments about how I should really consider law school, all evidence on the job market for new lawyers in America notwithstanding.
Don't do it unless you want to. I loved history at school, but my parents wanted me to do a degree that would give me a career and I did law. I agreed with them at the time, so they didn't have to do much persuading. I knew throughout my law degree that I wanted to study history, but duly qualified as a solicitor. That took 4 years at Uni and 2 years legal traineeship. I did a history module just for the joy of it whilst working full time as a lawyer, 4 years after I qualified and I chucked my legal career completely when I had my fist baby, having started a history degree thirteen days before I gave birth (good timing!!) So 6 years of study to qualify for less than 6 years of legal career.
Long story short, I'm only doing my history PhD now, in my late 40s. I hope to submit just before my 49th birthday. I've got good genes and lots of relatives who lived into their 80s / 90s/100s so I hope, really hope, that I can start a career at 50 and still have 30 good years working life ahead of me.
But as a life plan, doing law as a safe bet, because your parents think it's a good idea sucks. It really sucks.
(No criticism here of my parents, neither of whom went to Uni, neither of whom had any lawyers or academics in their social circle, and who really cared about my future and who guided me the best they could at the time.)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
I was a fresher nearly ten years ago (where does the time go?). I got in before the big fees increases, so only had to pay up to £1000 per year. (It was based on parental income, but it was definitely the student who was liable for it.) Loans were also in the student's name. (Today, uni fees are higher in the UK, but as far as I know they're handled by a system of loans which are still entirely in the student's name, where you pay them off when you start earning above a certain amount.)
My parents were definitely in the "Here's your first box of groceries, we'll see you in ten weeks, have fun!" camp. They were there for advice if I sought it, and I took advantage of that when I was renting a house, or deciding whether to go travelling in the summer.
I did have friends whose parents wanted to be much more involved, including one whose mother wanted her to phone every evening to say that she was OK. I think eventually she had to refuse to answer for a couple of days, to make the point that now she was an adult, she had the right not to be checked up on all the time. Standing up to your own parents is definitely a part of growing up!
The one thing that I never heard of was parents trying to contact the university directly. All the financial stuff was in the student's name, from the student loan forms and original applications all the way through to actually paying for stuff when you were there. I doubt the lecturers would have spoken to anyone but the student about any academic matters. Your grades could only be collected in person. A parent's only source of knowledge for how their offspring was getting on would be the offspring themselves.
I guess I'm sympathetic to why a parent with a vested interest might want to know how their (adult, it has to be noted) offspring was doing academically. But if they don't trust them to tell the truth about it, they shouldn't have lent/given them a bunch of money — and if you don't give someone a chance to make their own mistakes, they'll never properly grow up.
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
My husband and I had the child-raising philosophy that parents have twenty years to make themselves superfluous. We did pay for their college education;however if they hadn't studied seriously we would have told them we weren't paying anymore.
We supervised them closely when they were very young and relaxed the supervision gradually as they got older. We made it clear that we expected responsible behavior.
It is impossible to control a twenty-year-old, especially from a distance. This means that you have to make sure that they can control themselves before they leave home.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
We have seen three of our four kids go through college. While we helped were we could, we did not see the need to protect our investment as it were. We looked at what we could give them as a springboard for their future. It was up to them to make their own decisions.
However, when our second son became anorexic we did have to become more involved. He just was not making good decisions. His doctors told us we might have to declare him mentally incompetent to force him into treatment. It came close. We got him admitted into a clinic in Portland OR. About half way through the treatment program he was about to leave it. I made a hasty trip to Portland to do an intervention. I actually had the papers in hand to file with the judge if I had to. But in the end, he consented to continue treatment.
That was over five years ago. Now he is a healthy, productive young man who is married to a beautiful woman who helps keep him centered. They are now talking about having their own child.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Here is a timely article for the American side of this thread.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I really appreciate Moo's and Gramps49's contributions here from the perspective of parents who have actually done it -- seen kids through those years -- and appear to have a very balanced view of parental involvement. To my mind the "investment" aspect would come in exactly as Moo said -- not that I would hover over them (and certainly not over the school) to make sure my investment was protected, and definitely not that I would feel I had the right to force them into a study area of my choice because I was paying, but that if I found they were completely goofing off and not passing, etc., I'd reserve the right to withdraw financial support. I do believe parents should be much more hands-off by the time kids are in university than they were in high school, but at the same time there are situations, such as Gramps49 described with his son, that do call for greater parental involvement.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
You can have slam-dunk proof of plagiarism, slackitude, or just general incompetence, but an arguing parent means the kid gets their B+.
Ouch. Whilst one's aware that grade inflation is out there, this really saddens me.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
..... by St Stephens stoned balls Im glad I’m an old fart.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
You can have slam-dunk proof of plagiarism, slackitude, or just general incompetence, but an arguing parent means the kid gets their B+.
Ouch. Whilst one's aware that grade inflation is out there, this really saddens me.
In Australia, this is an everyday issue in schools, not so much universities which couldn't really give two hoots about a student's parents if they are over 18 years old.
It's why I favour externally-administered exams for the end of year 12, because they provide a far more objective measure that is immune to outside pressures and they provide teachers with good reason to mark fairly through the year.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
The UK and US experiences are so different that it seems they can hardly be compared, so I'm not saying anything about the US system.
quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
I was a fresher nearly ten years ago (where does the time go?). I got in before the big fees increases, so only had to pay up to £1000 per year. (It was based on parental income, but it was definitely the student who was liable for it.) Loans were also in the student's name. (Today, uni fees are higher in the UK, but as far as I know they're handled by a system of loans which are still entirely in the student's name, where you pay them off when you start earning above a certain amount.)
This sums up the UK position. The fees are paid by the student (usually from student loan funds, but even if from the bank of mum and dad it is still the student paying), so whatever the nature of relationship between student and parent, it will be (and should be) the student that the university deals with. Having said that, universities are well aware that parents tend to be much more involved in matters now than they were a few decades ago.
Twenty or thirty years ago prospective students would not have dreamed of taking parents with them on university open days - it would be like having your mother still walk you to school aged 18, an embarrassment not to be endured. Now it is common practice, and good universities can be expected to have tours, talks, etc on open days for parents to attend while their offspring are having interviews, their own tours of the campus etc. I know that at our local university one of the most popular events at their open days is a talk/lecture on 'how to be a parent of a university student'.
quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
The one thing that I never heard of was parents trying to contact the university directly. All the financial stuff was in the student's name, from the student loan forms and original applications all the way through to actually paying for stuff when you were there. I doubt the lecturers would have spoken to anyone but the student about any academic matters. Your grades could only be collected in person. A parent's only source of knowledge for how their offspring was getting on would be the offspring themselves.
Not just academic and financial matters, basically anything to do with the individual student. From the university's perspective, the Data Protection Act is a guiding force. An employer should not disclose any information to third parties about employees (except where legally required), so a university cannot do so about its students* - and the parents are a 'third party'. So a university should not even disclose whether a person's child is actually a student at that institution. If this seems a bit strong, bear in mind that there are some cases where a parent not only has no right to know, but really must not be told anything - where 'family history' might mean that contact between parent and child is prohibited and it could be dangerous for the student for the university to disclose their presence to a parent (usually a father - let the reader understand). Clearly university staff cannot (should not) all be given detailed information about a student's circumstances, and the only way to deal with this is don't discuss a student with anyone outside the university.
Having said that , there will always be a few helicopter parents about the place, who will need to have it explained to them that the reason why little Jo doesn't seem to be making many friends is because you, the parent, are camped out in Jo's student accommodation. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
* The situation is rather different if the student is under 18, but this does not apply to the large majority of UK university students, who are adults.
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
I find the level of overprotectiveness seen in some of the contributions on this thread bizarre. I lived on my own since my sixteenth birthday. I didn't expect my parents to have anything to do with my choice of university, subject or funding (thankfully I was educated in the era of free degrees and grants.) In fact I think the first they knew that I was going to uni was when I wrote to them with my new address.
At 18 you are an adult, you are responsible for your decisions, your actions and your cock ups. How you choose to use your time and resources is up to you. And that is how it should be because otherwise how do you learn how to be a functioning adult. I found my time at uni to be useful to gain an education yes, but far more importantly it was a training ground for the real world - managing your diet, alcohol intake, drug intake, time, money, part time work etc etc. These are hugely important life lessons and if you don't learn them at 18 when are you meant to?
As to insisting on watching your adult child on Skype 24 hours a day - that's not parenting, that's stalking.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Arranged marriages are part of this (again, parents trying to provide security for their offspring) and I think different cultures have different amounts of arrangement that are deemed acceptable, but it's the same drive, especially (I imagine) for the bride's family in a patriarchal society.
Depends on the culture and the parents, but in many it is the parent's security being purchased by the marriage(and/or education) of the offspring.
Yep, that's what I meant. Sorry if it wasn't clear.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Twenty or thirty years ago prospective students would not have dreamed of taking parents with them on university open days - it would be like having your mother still walk you to school aged 18, an embarrassment not to be endured. Now it is common practice, and good universities can be expected to have tours, talks, etc on open days for parents to attend while their offspring are having interviews, their own tours of the campus etc. I know that at our local university one of the most popular events at their open days is a talk/lecture on 'how to be a parent of a university student'.
I think it's a mark of adulthood that a person can ask their parents for their opinion about a major decision (like university study, purchasing a house or a car, or a major financial decision) and considering their suggestions without feeling embarrassed about it. This needs to be met by a mature attitude to parenting, which is about understanding that a request for an opinion does not mean they get to dictate a decision.
I'm glad that my parents asked their parents if they had any suggestions when it came time to have a new house built - even though they were in their thirties and had been living independently for over ten years each. Both sets of their parents had a couple of good suggestions which led to the final design being better, but also some suggestions which were not adopted because they were not suitable or the world had moved on since that wisdom was acquired.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by BWSmith:
"Helicopter parents" is a media snarl-word designed to intrude in the relationship between parents and their children.
Thank you for that. It's natural for parents to want to protect their children and it's natural for young people in their teens/early twenties to feel smothered by it all. That's long been the incentive for them to get their education and move out. They aren't really meant to have it both ways, independent lifestyle and financial support.
Speaking from personal experience, all of my parental regrets, and I have quite a list, center around not hovering enough rather than otherwise.
If it's any consolation, I know someone who had a relatively "normal" childhood as far as we can tell. Smart kid, good grades, went to a good Christian college...
Hasn't communicated with her mom in a decade or so.
There are errors to be made in both extremes, and anecdotes to support them.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
As well as the financial aspects one other big change is the ease of communication. When I was an undergraduate living in a hall of residence 20 years ago, if my mother had wanted to speak to me, she would have rung the pay phone (if she knew the number) and hoped that:
a) it was free at the time
b) somebody answered
c) they were prepared to walk up two flight of stairs to my room
d) I was in
e) nobody else was using the phone by the time I got down to it.
Now that everybody has mobile phones and email accounts, it is much easier for parents to be in daily contact with their student offspring and to get immediate answers to their questions.
In weekly letters it is fairly easy to ignore an awkward question. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
A university student is an adult. The university needs to treat them like an adult. How they get on with their parents is none of the university's business. If the parents don't trust their daughter to use the money they give her, well, they have the option of not giving it. But the university's relationship is with the student, not with whoever is funding them.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But the university's relationship is with the student, not with whoever is funding them.
That may actually sound reasonable in the UK. I really don't know. But I do know that in the US, the one waiver the university gets the kids to sign immediately is that the parents can be contacted about money. And the university makes full use of that waiver -- not only in making sure that the parent knows exactly how much money the student owes the university and precisely when it is due, but by hounding the parent at least weekly with solicitations that cannot be opted out of by any means known to man. Your notion is just absurd over here.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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