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Source: (consider it) Thread: Egyptian President described Jews as 'descendants of apes and pigs'
Ender's Shadow
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According to this report

So how should Israel react?

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orfeo

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The first thing I would observe is that it was not the Egyptian President per se, but the man who became the Egyptian President. Which I think is important because my idea of the appropriate response is affected by that.

Having said that, he should be given an opportunity to respond and apologise.

If there is an Egyptian ambassador in Israel, then it would be appropriate to bring the ambassador in and say that such comments are unacceptable.

If the comments had been made NOW then I would have said pretty well every country that has an Egyptian ambassador ought to be bringing them in and saying that such comments are unacceptable. And if he repeats or confirms such comments now, the same would apply.

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Bostonman
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Not to joke around too much, but "descendant of an ape" isn't much of an insult in this age.

You're also misrepresenting what he's said, as far as I can tell from the article, which is that "the Zionists"—the most-common term for Israelis, especially their leaders, among those who reject the Israeli state—are the descendants of apes and pigs, not Jews in general.

Now I'm sure we can debate all the rest of it (one-state solution, etc.) all day, and I certainly don't agree with almost any of what he said. But let's be honest about who he's calling the descendants of apes and pigs.

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Golden Key
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Wow.

Two things:

--I suspect that's probably a very ancient Arabic form of insult. Not excusing it. But probably long predates Darwin.

--How common is it for Egyptians to believe in evolution?

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Arethosemyfeet
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So we're actually talking about a political insult rather than an ethnic one? Sounds like the Arabic equivalent of calling someone a son-of-a-bitch. Not polite, and not helpful, but it's intemperate language, not anti-semitic hate speech.
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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
Not to joke around too much, but "descendant of an ape" isn't much of an insult in this age.

But the insult 'descendant of PIGS', unclean in both Judaism and Islam, IS a serious insult.
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
You're also misrepresenting what he's said, as far as I can tell from the article, which is that "the Zionists"—the most-common term for Israelis, especially their leaders, among those who reject the Israeli state—are the descendants of apes and pigs, not Jews in general.

Now I'm sure we can debate all the rest of it (one-state solution, etc.) all day, and I certainly don't agree with almost any of what he said. But let's be honest about who he's calling the descendants of apes and pigs.

Except that ignores the allegation of clear anti-Semitism in the last paragraph: 'The Jews, he said, "have been fanning the flames of civil strife wherever they were throughout history. They are hostile by nature.... '

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Enoch
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There's discussion on another thread of what has been called the 'n' word. If this report is true, this man has used the equivalent and should be judged by all right thinking people accordingly. Otherwise, nobody has any right to condemn anyone for using any term of abuse in any context.

The argument 'he was only condemning Zionists, not Jews in general' is specious, particularly in the context of gratuitous abuse by one Middle Eastern demagogue among many. Would it be equally acceptable or unacceptable for an Israeli politician to describe all Moslems or all Egyptians as 'descendants of apes and pigs'?

I assume in the context that either way accusing a person of having pig ancestors is the real insult, rather than the ape one, but the ape one does convey the accusation of being subhuman.


So much for all the commentators who called the riots the Arab Spring and presented it as the coming of peace, democracy and all forms of loveliness.

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Martin60
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Israel should react by blessing and being a blessing.

It isn't, hence the abuse.

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Pasco
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Being technically a 'half-brother' of the target audience of the president's remark - he has unwittingly labelled himself the same in the eyes that is of the Egyptian electorate, from under whose feet he has pulled the rug, failing to abide by the wishes of the overall Egyptian electorate.
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Pasco
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Forgot to add - I understand though that the remarks were made before he became president.
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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
According to this report

So how should Israel react?

What do you think?
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Sioni Sais
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Morsi's direct quotes throughout refer to "Zionists". The Jerusalem Post article uses "Jews" and the thread title does so too, which introduces immense heat but no light to the debate.

I think that tells us how the JP expects and possibly hopes Israel to react.

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Morsi's direct quotes throughout refer to "Zionists". The Jerusalem Post article uses "Jews" and the thread title does so too, which introduces immense heat but no light to the debate.

I think that tells us how the JP expects and possibly hopes Israel to react.

No - the FINAL quote that I've already repeated once can only apply to Jews 'throughout history'. And the fact that a man who is now president as recently as 2 years ago is a blatant racist in his comments makes his legitimacy in any normal western community negligible. The fact that the response of many of the posters here is to try to shade and ignore this issue is, in my mind, perverse.

As far as the designation of JEWS, not Zionists as the descendants of apes and pigs are concerned, it is very common in Islam; the fact that Morsi transferred the allegation to 'Zionists' is of course the way Islamists try to avoid allegations of anti-Semitism. However the reality is, to any reasonable observer, that this is merely spin. And the fact that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are broadcast on Egyptian TV seems to confirm the real subtext.

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Gamaliel
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Well, he's obviously being inflammatory and trying to get a reaction.

Is the Pope a Catholic?

I can remember a strongly Welsh nationalist councillor in Bangor or somewhere in North Wales referring to Liverpudlians and English people in general as 'rats' and 'pigs'. If he'd have referred to Jewish, black or Asian people that way he'd have received a heck of a lot more censure than he actually received and also the censure he so richly deserved.

There are bozos all over the place. Sadly, and dangerously, there's one who is now President of Egypt.

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mdijon
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I expect he does mix his anti-Zionism with anti-semitism. It would certainly go with the territory.

So what next? The answer to the OP is "nothing". What would you suggest?

I'm not sure what "legitimacy in Western community"
means in practice. He is currently the elected leader of Egypt, a country where the West previously propped up an unelected tyrant. He's the guy we need to deal with, whatever we say about his racism.

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Enoch
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Yebbut. It does mean we should be much more outspoken in siding with Copts who have the courage to express reservations about him.

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PaulTH*
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With many Arab leaders, Arafat used to be just the same, it depends on who the audience is, what level of vitreol they will pour over Israel. In a letter written to Israeli President Shimon Peres in October 2012, Morsi called him a "great and good friend" and called for "maintaining and strengthening the cordial relations which so happily exist between our two countries." The previous remarks were probably for his Muslim Brotherhood audience, where the latter are to impress the international community. What's important is what he lives by.

The Peace Treaty of 1979 has brought some stability to the region. I have feared that the Muslim Brotherhood won't want to continue with it, but from Morsi's letter, it seems that he is being a pragmatist and won't inflame further this troubled region. With regards to persecution of the Copts, the new mood in Egypt is not favourable to this ancient community, who should always be in our prayers.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
What's important is what he lives by.

Exactly. We should side with the Copts anyway - they need our support. We should speak out against Morsi if he persecutes them. Whether he is an anti-semite who persecutes copts or an egalitarian persecuter is neither here not there. But when we do speak out against Morsi we should remember our country's longstanding alignment with Mubarak. He really was an illegitimate dictator, and the charges of hypocrisy will stick.

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Gamaliel
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Spot on mdijon.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There are bozos all over the place. Sadly, and dangerously, there's one who is now President of Egypt.

I would argue that anti-semitic ugliness coming from the leader of a country bordering on Israel is in a different league from anti-English ugliness coming from a Welshman. The act of comparing them is almost insulting.

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Bostonman
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I would argue that anti-semitic ugliness coming from the leader of a country bordering on Israel is in a different league from anti-English ugliness coming from a Welshman. The act of comparing them is almost insulting.

Just curious to hear the argument: why?
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mousethief

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Because Egypt can do a hell of a lot more damage to Israel than Wales can to England.

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Chesterbelloc

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Precisely.

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Because Egypt can do a hell of a lot more damage to Israel than Wales can to England.

and because we are talking about the President, not A Welshman...

My own response to these revelations is to argue that the West should be far less willing to pressurise Israel to lower its guard and give up the things, such as control of the areas taken over in 1967, that offer a degree of security. There really are a lot of people in the countries surrounding Israel who have no compunction about destroying Israel and persecuting Jews.

We often hear cute stories like: 'when Jewish and Arab children get to play together, they get on really well - why can't Israel leave the territories?' This of course ignores the continuing presence of the adults who would intervene when the children fall out. Given the experience of Gaza, where Israel tried this strategy and got rewarded by a steady flow of rockets landing in their homes, the question is: 'who would act as the adults in that scenario?'. Given the failure of the UN to control Hezbullah in Lebanon, that possibility is also apparently a failure.

Does this mean that Israel should get a free pass to do whatever it likes? No, but we should give them the benefit of the doubt and be understanding of the pressures and history in the situation. Sometimes there have been stunts that proved to be total lies. Sometimes the story needs context: that a closed checkpoint stops an ambulance needs to be seen in the context of the fact that ambulances have been used for bombs in the past. (google 'palestinian ambulance bomb' for more such stories). And yes, sometimes Israel has got it wrong. But compared with the routine and unapologetic use of terror tactics targeting civilians (bombs on buses) as well as the gratuitous lobbing rockets over the border from Gaza, it's not got a bad record. And so has everyone else: the failures don't totally delegitimate the cause they are fighting for.

So perhaps the follow-up question is: Is it rational to believe there is a solution to the situation in Israel?

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Marvin the Martian

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So basically, you're saying that because an Egyptian has said bad things about Israelis, those same Israelis should continue oppressing Palestinians?

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So basically, you're saying that because an Egyptian has said bad things about Israelis, those same Israelis should continue oppressing Palestinians?

Never mind oppressing them, the figures for killing them ought to be considered too. I think the ratio of Palestinian:Israeli death due to violent action, whether terrorist or police & armed forces is about 3:1.

[ 07. January 2013, 12:06: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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Rosa Winkel

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Which is a lot closer than presented by many.

Not that it's a league table of badness.

Anyway, it's easy for me to say that the Israeli government should react with grace. I'm not facing neighbours who want to kill me. But still.

Even people who lives thousands of miles away who are anti-Israel or pro-Israel can't be civil to each other.

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
So perhaps the follow-up question is: Is it rational to believe there is a solution to the situation in Israel?

I notice that you never gave your answer to the question in your OP.

Why does the follow-up question require a new thread? Are you no longer interested in this one? Wait - are you planning on opening a new thread every day? (How exciting - it'll be like the 12 days of Christmas!)

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orfeo

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I'll tell you precisely how Israel SHOULDN'T react. With anything non-peaceful.

Because you're not going to disprove the 'descendants of apes and pigs' part by proving the 'there can be no peace' part.

[ 07. January 2013, 12:22: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So basically, you're saying that because an Egyptian has said bad things about Israelis, those same Israelis should continue oppressing Palestinians?

Nice attempt at spin. No, what I am saying is that this attitude is typical of widespread attitudes in the Arab world which make it deeply unfair to expect the Israelis to be too forthcoming in negotiations. In the interim, the present experience of the Arabs follows directly as a result of the abuse of the previously relaxed situation to carry out the murder of civilians by bombings. Is this ideal? No. Is this the least worst solution for the foreseeable future? Probably.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Is this the least worst solution for the foreseeable future? Probably.

I imagine that such a conclusion depends greatly on which side of the wall one sees oneself as being.

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Mudfrog
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If the Palestinians stopped firing their rockets from installations within residential areas there would be fewer civilian deaths.

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the giant cheeseburger
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Is this the least worst solution for the foreseeable future? Probably.

I imagine that such a conclusion depends greatly on which side of the wall one sees oneself as being.
I agree.

That view could change a little if (hypothetically speaking) Scotland were to become independent...

In a dispute with England over the territory around Berwick, Scotland occupies and annexes England down to a line between Stoke-on-Trent and Scunthorpe. A period of brutal oppression in the cities of Doncaster, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle follows, after which England (supported by Wales, the Netherlands and Norway) is goaded into starting a war which the Scottish win with the use of undeclared chemical weapons, taking over everything from the Severn Estuary to King's Lynn. Things settle down a bit as those left who didn't manage to escape to Wales or the unoccupied parts of England are deliberately starved by the Scots living off the fat of the land, and anybody remotely suspected of being in favour of English self-determination jailed regardless of whether there's any substance to those allegations. The enforced famine, mass rapes and disproportionate reprisals by the Glasgow-based secret police doesn't manage to completely kill the resolve of the English, some of whom decide to "abuse of the previously relaxed situation to carry out the murder of civilians by bombings" in Edinburgh and Aberdeen.

Ender's Shadow - you manage to escape from occupied Manchester and make it to Ireland via Wales, narrowly avoiding a missile strike aimed at you (because a friend was tortured into telling the Scots you were a bomb-maker) which instead takes out 31 civilians near Aberystwyth. In Dublin, a journalist asks you of your opinion about the situation in the Israeli-occupied Palestian Territories. Is your answer still "keep on sticking it to them nasty Palestinians cos it's the least bad solution, nuke them for all I care" or does your experience give you a more rounded view on that conflict?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So basically, you're saying that because an Egyptian has said bad things about Israelis, those same Israelis should continue oppressing Palestinians?

Whoa, wait, who said that? Tell me, so I can kick their kneecaps.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So basically, you're saying that because an Egyptian has said bad things about Israelis, those same Israelis should continue oppressing Palestinians?

Whoa, wait, who said that? Tell me, so I can kick their kneecaps.
Quoth Ender's Shadow:

quote:
My own response to these revelations [namely the Egyptian PM saying bad things about Israelis] is to argue that the West should be far less willing to pressurise Israel to lower its guard and give up the things, such as control of the areas taken over in 1967 [namely Palestinian land, from which the Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed] , that offer a degree of security.


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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So basically, you're saying that because an Egyptian has said bad things about Israelis, those same Israelis should continue oppressing Palestinians?

Whoa, wait, who said that? Tell me, so I can kick their kneecaps.
Quoth Ender's Shadow:

quote:
My own response to these revelations [namely the Egyptian PM saying bad things about Israelis] is to argue that the West should be far less willing to pressurise Israel to lower its guard and give up the things, such as control of the areas taken over in 1967 [namely Palestinian land, from which the Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed] , that offer a degree of security.

Oh, God. Him.

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Martin60
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# 368

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So Morsi is historically an anti-semite.

Uh huh. What a surprise.

And Egypt can hurt Israel ? Without committing suicide ? Complete social collapse ? Setting the world on fire ? And if she succeeeds in hurting Israel enough, without WORSE ? A hydrogen bomb or 10 over Cairo and Tehran for nowt ?

WE are the enemy.

[ 07. January 2013, 16:54: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Is your answer still "keep on sticking it to them nasty Palestinians cos it's the least bad solution, nuke them for all I care" or does your experience give you a more rounded view on that conflict?

The question is properly answered by reference to the Just War theory; given that the Arabs totally fail to justify their resistance in those terms, their behaviour is morally flawed. That their behaviour has resulted in their conditions getting progressively worse is IMNSHO an example of how sin does bring its own punishment.

And it is totally simplistic to be so negative about the present experience of most of the Arabs; by the standards of history they are extremely well off. They don't have a political voice? Neither did most of the people in most of history - and the New Testament doesn't make a big deal of it. Yes, there have been some really bad decisions by Israel in choosing the route of the wall, but I've no doubt they have every right to build it.

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mdijon
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# 8520

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I wonder how those arguments would wash with you if the UK population lived under the sorts of conditions that the Palestinians do? You'd content yourself by remembering that we didn't have democracy under the Romans either and some of us are actually quite well off?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
but I've no doubt they have every right to build it.

On Israeli land, certainly. That means the 1948 borders. The location is the entire point.
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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The question is properly answered by reference to the Just War theory; given that the Arabs totally fail to justify their resistance in those terms, their behaviour is morally flawed. ...

AIUI, Just War theory is a Christian creation. Why would you expect non-Christians to justify their behaviour in Christian terms? Why expect the Just War theory to be universally applicable? ('Cause not everyone agrees with it ... )

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Martin60
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# 368

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Especially Jesus. But He doesn't count in Christendom.

We are the enemy.

[ 07. January 2013, 17:32: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The question is properly answered by reference to the Just War theory; given that the Arabs totally fail to justify their resistance in those terms, their behaviour is morally flawed.

Please explain how Palestinian Arab justification for pushing back against the occupiers of their ancestral lands is flawed.

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The question is properly answered by reference to the Just War theory; given that the Arabs totally fail to justify their resistance in those terms, their behaviour is morally flawed.

That just tells me that the behaviour of both sides is morally flawed. Which I already knew.

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Gamaliel
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The New Testament doesn't make a big deal of people not having a political voice ...

Ok, so that means its alright to deny such a thing to people then ...

[Roll Eyes]

Last time I looked the NT didn't have a great deal to say about ecology, about art, about ways to organise carnivals or town-councils, how to run the local swimming baths ...

So none of these things are important either ...

[Roll Eyes]

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Sergius-Melli
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I wonder how those arguments would wash with you if the UK population lived under the sorts of conditions that the Palestinians do?

You see we can play this game all day...

How would you feel if you were living in Israel under the terror of indiscriminate bombs raining down on civilian areas - not in the attempt at precision thath te Israeli's aim at, but just freely lobbed into Israeli territory without care?

Also I posit... How do you feel about a terrorist organisation placing missile lauchspots and weapons caches in civilian areas, using people as a human shield and playing one hell of a PR game with the resultant problems they created... a PR game that the left-wing media in the UK at least laps up with great relish and uses to distort facts...

quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The question is properly answered by reference to the Just War theory; given that the Arabs totally fail to justify their resistance in those terms, their behaviour is morally flawed. ...

AIUI, Just War theory is a Christian creation. Why would you expect non-Christians to justify their behaviour in Christian terms? Why expect the Just War theory to be universally applicable? ('Cause not everyone agrees with it ... )
There is a form of Islamic 'Just War Theory' out there. From what Iremember it is not widespread, nor binding... just for people's information...

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Please explain how Palestinian Arab justification for pushing back against the occupiers of their ancestral lands is flawed.

A very flawed argument that requires little response, however, where do you draw the line for ancestral homeland? Surely the Jewish people as an ethnic group can claim the same 'ancestral homeland' defence?
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Martin60
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Why do you play it?

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Sergius-Melli
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# 17462

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Why do you play it?

Im not saying I'm going to play it - I have other games that are much more satisfying to play elsewhere! I was just pointing out the shakiness and circular nature of the arguments normally put forwards in the Israel-Palestine argument. The only way to make progress is to abide by the international legal agreements already agreed to (and broken by both sides) such as the Oslo Treaty (which some have said is undermined by the recent action taken at the UN) and to work from them.

Comments such as those by Morsi given in the OP (whether years ago or present) do not help the situation, and only when Israel's neighbours begin to accept that Israel should have a right to exist in peace then Israel will not settle down because until it feels like it can live at peace without fear of annihilation then nothing lasting will happen...

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Martin60
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# 368

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OK Sergius-Melli, despite your 'How would/do you feel'.

Israel's neighbours can and will NEVER submit to Christendom's terms, they are too broken. Christendom must have, can have NO terms.

We must lay our strength down. Before they make us destroy them completely. And ourselves in the process.

God forbid that we should repeat and worse that which was fulfilled in the first century.

Where is the Christian lead in this? Where is our founder in this?

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
A very flawed argument that requires little response,

Ever the claim of the person incapable of arguing their corner. Sure beats putting up a rational case for your point, doesn't it? Bravo.

quote:
however, where do you draw the line for ancestral homeland? Surely the Jewish people as an ethnic group can claim the same 'ancestral homeland' defence?
Seeing somebody else steal your grandfather's olive orchard and drive your family off it is rather a different thing from seeing someone living in an olive orchard on land you read about in a book, that your ancient ancestors may or may not have lived on 2000 years ago.

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