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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is it rational to believe that there is a solution to the situation in Israel?
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
Given the strong evidence that there is a persistent threat to Israel's very existence in the clear anti-semitism of the Arab street and governments, is it rational to assume there MUST be a solution to the situation in Israel? It's nice to be nice. It's nice to be optimistic. It's nice to believe that the other will play nicely. But given the history and present attitudes, is it reasonable to assume there MUST be a solution? Or is this an irrational belief based on an ideology that doesn't actually reflect the real world?
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
I think it's rational to believe there is a solution. Look at Northern Ireland, it's not all rosy but it's come to a point where things are stable and nobody needs to worry about being blown up just for catching the train to work.
Sadly, I don't think it's realistic to believe there is, at this time, enough will on either side to make the compromises that would be necessary to come to that solution and to make it work in the long term.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
What the bun said.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Rational to believe there is a solution? Probably not. But, it is IMO essential to believe there will be a solution. The alternative is to throw up our hands in despair and allow the ongoing injustice, intolerance, violence and general inhumanity to continue.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
the clear anti-semitism of the Arab street
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Is anti-Zionism now self-hatred?
--Tom Clune
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This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I agree with the burger. An interesting example is Ireland, where resentment towards the occupier, and towards the occupied, has lasted approximately 800 years, and is still going on. However, much of the real sound and fury has departed, since Ireland became independent, and of course, N. Ireland still rumbles on, but much abated. Thus, eventually, human conflicts are resolved, therefore it is rational to believe that there is a solution to another conflict.
[ 07. January 2013, 12:38: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
the clear anti-semitism of the Arab street
Is anti-Zionism now self-hatred?
--Tom Clune
Prepare for the thread to descend into the joys of etymology...
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Alan is right. There are ghastlier and ghastlier Heraclitean endliche Lösungen - loops of 'final solutions'. This made-in-England perfect storm, like Kashmir and all similar, coalescing failures of Christendom HAS to be solved. By Christianity. Nothing else can possibly save Israel. And America. And the world.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
Bullshit.
There have been efforts by what I think you mean by "Christendom" to solve the problem of the Israeli Occupation, but they haven't succeeded because there is not any will to seek that solution by the leaders of the parties which are directly involved, none of which you would describe as "Christendom." Indeed, the nation which has put the most effort into finding a solution is actually a secular republic run by money-hungry corporations and not a Christian nation by any measure.
How do you propose that the "Christian" leaders of the nations you call "Christendom" force the leaders of the nations directly involved to come around to their viewpoints if they don't want to? Threaten to bomb the crap out of the nasty heathens (in "Christian" love, of course) until they surrender to your view of how they should conduct their internal affairs?
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
Or how about...
Given the fact that Israel has started building settlements in East Jerusalem that will literally cut the West Bank in half, making it virtually impossible for a contiguous Palestinian state to exist in the West Bank in the future?
Antisemitism in the Arab world is real and horrible, in the same way that anti-Islamic tendencies (the term "Islamophobia" seems so strange) in the United States are real and horrible. Frankly, both of them constitute a roadblock to peace.
But it's important to recognize that peace is a two-way street, and the current Israeli government has consistently acted to promote its own nationalist agenda at the expense of the peace process.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
And, of course, Israel has full Bibnlical warrant for taking "their" land for Israel's purposes. I take it that the other side can find justification in their scriptures, as read by them.
The Holy Book always trumps any sense of justice or even of the "other" people bing basically human. This, together with normal human needs to support one's own tribe, prevents any rational solution being acceptable, because a solution would involve the "other" side getting something.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
It always scares the living daylights out of me when quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
The Holy Book always trumps any sense of justice or even of the "other" people bing basically human.
happens.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Ultimately there is only ONE possible solution to the conflict. It won't happen anytime soon, because of hardened opinions, but I believe that there is, quite literally, no other answer. It's a three point plan:
1. Israel must return to its pre 1967 borders.
2. There must be an enforcible UN backed charter which guarentees Israel's right to leave peacefully within those borders.
3. Jerusalem must be made an international city in respect for its status as Holy City to three world religions.
The last of these would be the most difficult, as both Israel and Palestine would claim Jerusalem as capital, and would fight over the holy sites. So it must be taken out of both their hands. I would challenge anybody to come up with a better, or fairer idea.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Ultimately there is only ONE possible solution to the conflict. It won't happen anytime soon, because of hardened opinions, but I believe that there is, quite literally, no other answer. It's a three point plan:
1. Israel must return to its pre 1967 borders.
What do you do with all the settlers who live outside the pre-1967 borders?
quote:
2. There must be an enforcible UN backed charter which guarentees Israel's right to leave peacefully within those borders.
As far as state actors, this basically already exists, due to US support and Israel's nuclear weapons (the last war conventional war between Israel and its neighbors was in 1973). As far as non-state actors, it's not obvious how you'd want to enforce something like that, or what meaning it would have. If Hezbollah attacks Israel from Lebanon, then...a US force invades Lebanon in retaliation? That'll go well.
quote:
3. Jerusalem must be made an international city in respect for its status as Holy City to three world religions.
There is quite literally a 0% chance of this happening. While a Tel Aviv/Ramallah capital split would be lovely, it's a total pipe dream. Israel would never accept it, the US would never accept it, and frankly the Palestinians would probably never accept it.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Pax Romana again. Coercion. 2 just moves the gentile-infidel enemy above the locals.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Given the strong evidence that there is a persistent threat to Israel's very existence in the clear anti-semitism of the Arab street and governments,
You'll have to unpack this for me. Israel has the most disciplined and technologically advanced military in the region, between 150 and 400 nukes with the capability of obliterating any Arab state that goes to war with it and is a client state of the U.S. which supports it to the tune of billions annually, both militarily and economically.
How do statements from Arab governments threaten the existence of Israel again?
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
1. Israel must return to its pre 1967 borders.
Let's just have Islam return to its pre 622 borders, instead.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Ultimately there is only ONE possible solution to the conflict. It won't happen anytime soon, because of hardened opinions, but I believe that there is, quite literally, no other answer. It's a three point plan:
1. Israel must return to its pre 1967 borders.
Why the 1967 borders - the line of the ceasefire in 1948? That ceasefire line was violated by attacks made between 1948 and 1967, as well as the attacks at the time of the 1967 war, and so the ceasefire line is now irrelevant. You don't reward aggressors for their attacks
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Given the strong evidence that there is a persistent threat to Israel's very existence in the clear anti-semitism of the Arab street and governments,
You'll have to unpack this for me. Israel has the most disciplined and technologically advanced military in the region, between 150 and 400 nukes with the capability of obliterating any Arab state that goes to war with it and is a client state of the U.S. which supports it to the tune of billions annually, both militarily and economically.
How do statements from Arab governments threaten the existence of Israel again?
Because of the experiences seen at the time of the first Gulf War, when missiles from Iraq landed in Israel, the recent persistent attacks from Gaza and the prospect of similar from Hezbullah in Lebanon and from the territories given back to the Arabs. Such attacks render the country effectively uninhabitable even if they are not massively destructive. Meanwhile the nuclear weapons make no particular different in that scenario.
As to the claim of 150 nukes - where on earth do you get that figure from? It would make very little sense for Israel to have that sort of number, let alone 400.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
Nothing you describe presents an existential threat to Israel.
The nuke claim comes from an article by Kenneth Brower (February 1997), "A Propensity for Conflict: Potential Scenarios and Outcomes of War in the Middle East", Jane's Intelligence Review (14): 14–5 and is referenced in The EU Non-Proliferation Consortium: Assessing Nuclear Capabilities in the Middle East (Warning PDF) U.S. Air Force has made a similar claim. The U.S. Department of Defence estimates that Israel has between 60-80 nukes.
Either way, any Arab regime that presents a true existential threat to Israel is assured destruction. Even the radical Arab regimes, rhetoric aside, are concerned primarily about stability.
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
EeEss - where do you get this colossal ignorance? Israel easily has 200 nuclear weapons including hydrogen bombs. Facilitated by France, America, Britain for 60 years.
My blood ran cold during the Carter administration when Begin said that if Israel went down she would pull down the temple of humanity. And I was Christian Zionist then.
Whatever problems Christendom has created that it won't address with, in, as Christ it will address with ever worse hell on earth. As it always has.
WE are the enemy.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Israel easily has 200 nuclear weapons including hydrogen bombs. Facilitated by France, America, Britain for 60 years.
[citation needed]
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Why the 1967 borders - the line of the ceasefire in 1948? That ceasefire line was violated by attacks made between 1948 and 1967, as well as the attacks at the time of the 1967 war, and so the ceasefire line is now irrelevant. You don't reward aggressors for their attacks
Neither do you allow countries to take land by conquest. It's illegal under international law. Personally I'd prefer a single state solution with Israelis and Palestinians having equal citizenship. Even less likely than a two state solution unfortunately.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Arethosemyfeet, which country do you think has taken land by conquest, and which land have they taken?
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Care to look at these maps?
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I've seen those maps, Jengie. If the point is that the Palestinians' land has been taken, then by the logic of those maps ISTM the entire state of Israel is a taking of Palestinian land through conquest, by the 1948 Israeli declaration of independence. Or if one argues that the 1947 U.N. declaration (unratified by the Palestinians) gave Israel the right to exist, then why not argue for the 1947 proposed partition lines?
The armistice lines of 1949 were deliberately stated by both sides that they were armistice lines, not boundary lines. This was done, AIUI, deliberately so that both sides could contest the lines later.
So the ensuing encroachment on the yellow areas of the maps after 1967 could be seen as a continued contesting of the boundaries which were left deliberately undetermined in the 1949 armistice.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
TeeGeeBee.
I propose that Christendom, the cradle of anti-semitism, Islam, European global imperialism and the state of Israel (including by Balfour, an anti-semitic Anglo-Israelite), particularly in the case of that ultimate European power the USA, stop warmongering. Stop uselessly pouring arms and money in to proxies to maintain its 'freedom'. Stops creating enemies that can devastate it with a couple of box cutters.
Start pursuing peace at a trillion dollars a year instead.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Sorry, TeeGeeCee.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sleepwalker
Shipmate
# 15343
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Given the strong evidence that there is a persistent threat to Israel's very existence in the clear anti-semitism of the Arab street and governments,
You'll have to unpack this for me. Israel has the most disciplined and technologically advanced military in the region, between 150 and 400 nukes with the capability of obliterating any Arab state that goes to war with it
There is an unfortunate weakspot when it comes to nukes, though. If you're going to hit your neighbour with them, chances are you will get some blow back. I would imagine the nukes are as good as useless really, unless they fire them on to one of their more distant enemies.
Posts: 267 | From: somewhere other than here | Registered: Dec 2009
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Given the strong evidence that there is a persistent threat to Israel's very existence in the clear anti-semitism of the Arab street and governments,
You'll have to unpack this for me. Israel has the most disciplined and technologically advanced military in the region, between 150 and 400 nukes with the capability of obliterating any Arab state that goes to war with it
There is an unfortunate weakspot when it comes to nukes, though. If you're going to hit your neighbour with them, chances are you will get some blow back. I would imagine the nukes are as good as useless really, unless they fire them on to one of their more distant enemies.
Which is why you see the former ex shin bet head denounces Netanyu security because he is afraid he may precipitate nuclear war with Iran.
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The continued fragmentation of Palestine
with settlements is going to lead to a situation where a Palestinian state is not practical, the choices are an apartheid state , the highly unlikely creation of a secular democracy for all, or mass deportation of the Palestinians. That used to be unthinkable, but now it's being talked about by members of the ruling parties.
The US should stop funding this. The fact that Netanyu and company supported Romney, have appointed their Romney co-ordinator as a diplomat and the attempts to prevent Hagel from being appointed to the cabinet may put a pause in the mindless support.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Airbursts.
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Mere Nick - Islam isn't a state, it's a religion. Ok, I'll accept that aspects of the Caliphate idea incline towards the theocratic. But there isn't a single Islamic state, there are states that are predominantly Islamic. The Arab nations in the Middle-East are by no means monolithic, any more than Islam itself is monolithic.
You may as well ask that the USA goes back to pre-1620 Pilgrim Father's borders ... he said anachronistically ...
Or that Anglo-Saxon England went back to its pre-Anglo-Saxon invasion/incursions state and reverted to the situation at the end of the Roman Empire with the Romano-British in charge.
No, what's done is done and we've got Israel sharing uneasy borders with its neighbours. What has to be found - however difficult and intractable it might seem - is some kind of solution that respects the rights, dignities and lives of all the peoples of the region.
The current situation is highly volatile. Things could go very badly for Israel if the 'wrong' guys emerged on the winning side from the civil strife in Syria. Assad is an asshole but some of the rebels seem very, very scarey indeed. I wouldn't hold out much hope for either Jews or Christians if the very extreme Islamists won through ...
I really don't know where to start but I don't see the likes of Ender's Shadow holding out much of a solution either. From what he's posted before it sounds as if he favours Israel gaining even more territory and extending its borders even further than, arguably, it ever even did back in OT times.
How it could ever do that without displacing other peoples, provoking a back-lash or even more conflict is beyond me.
What's your solution, Ender's Shadow? Show the surrounding peoples a copy of the OT and say, 'Look, here is where your borders should be ... just move your frontier back here, there and over there, give up this town and that town, that land and this land and then we'll all live happily ever after?'
There's got to be a better way.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There's got to be a better way.
Why?
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There's got to be a better way.
Why?
Because your way cannot end other than in war and death.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There's got to be a better way.
Why?
Because your way cannot end other than in war and death.
Some would see that as a solution, certainly in Natural Selection terms. In fact I do have a friend who once suggested we just put a dome (Simpsons movie style) over the top of the area and allow them to fight it out to the death... Beyond it's impracticality (where the hell would you get such a large dome from in the first place?) it does have basic humanity issues as well... but anyway the point is, some do see a war as the solution... friction builds, it needs releasing...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Only people whose mental faculties haven't developed beyond kids beating each other up in the playground to resolve issues in the interests of the biggest, strongest and thickest.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Only people whose mental faculties haven't developed beyond kids beating each other up in the playground to resolve issues in the interests of the biggest, strongest and thickest.
Very true, but still somepeople hold the view!
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There's got to be a better way.
Why?
Because your way cannot end other than in war and death.
That's not a reason to believe there's got to be a better way - it's a statement of faith about the situation. Whilst emotionally attractive, that doesn't constitute evidence that a better way exists. Just because we want to believe that a child won't die of cancer, doesn't stop it from happening. And it's because there is a stream within the pentecostal church that argues in exactly the same way: 'If we only had faith, God would heal' - that pentecostalism gets a bad name. In the same way when people from the wider church wander round saying 'there must be a solution', they equally attract the contempt of the world.
Ultimately the question is whether there is a way that will result in less war and death than the present situation. It is a rational conclusion of many within Israel that given the anti-semitism of so many of their opponents, maintaining the present situation is the route that will lead to the least war and death. ALL the ways forward are bad; the question is whether we, comfortably settled thousands of miles away from the situation, have the right to tell the people in the potential firing line that they have a duty to gamble with the safety not only of themselves but of their children. For instance, if you drive your child to school out of fear for their safety, then you've proved you are unwilling to do the slightly more risky thing. Therefore you have no right to demand Israelis take the same sort of risk.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Ultimately the question is whether there is a way that will result in less war and death than the present situation. It is a rational conclusion of many within Israel that given the anti-semitism of so many of their opponents, maintaining the present situation is the route that will lead to the least war and death.
The least death for them, maybe. I'm talking about the whole situation though. Israel might decide that its own safety is worth the deaths of any number of Palestinians, but that doesn't make it right.
quote:
For instance, if you drive your child to school out of fear for their safety, then you've proved you are unwilling to do the slightly more risky thing. Therefore you have no right to demand Israelis take the same sort of risk.
And if you sit safe in your house, knowing that you have easy access to food, water, schools and hospitals, and knowing that you can go and visit anyone you know, wherever they live in your country, without being subject to armed searches or checkpoints at any one of which you could be shot should you fail to obey perfectly the instructions you are given (assuming you are allowed to make the journey in the first place, of course), and furthermore knowing that your house and those of all your neighbours won't be bulldozed so that some other folk can claim your land as their own - as long as you have all of those safeties and securities don't you fucking dare suggest that depriving the Palestinians of every single one of them just so the people doing the depriving can have a bit more safety is the best solution.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
This side of the Second Coming ? I doubt it ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
[ 10. January 2013, 15:58: Message edited by: PaulBC ]
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I propose that Christendom... stop warmongering. Stop uselessly pouring arms and money in to proxies to maintain its 'freedom'. Stops creating enemies that can devastate it with a couple of box cutters.
Start pursuing peace at a trillion dollars a year instead.
No money in pursuing peace. No wide-spread adrenaline to keep the ruling party in power. External wars for internal political reasons is one of the oldest games.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
It seems that any conflict where one or other side can claim the rhetoric that "God gave it to us" is doomed to failure.
I think this video sums it up well: This Land is Mine
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
It seems that any conflict where one or other side can claim the rhetoric that "God gave it to us" is doomed to failure.
I think this video sums it up well: This Land is Mine
Thanks for the link.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Just found this quote. I thought it was quite telling:
quote:
"If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." Hassan Nasrallah, Secretary-General of Lebanon's Hezbollah October 23, 2002
Then I decided to source it and found .
this collection of quotes
I'm sorry but these outbursts seem to answer the question in the opening post. There is no solution to the situation in Israel. And reading what this man has said, one can understand the attitude taken by Israel.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
[QB] Mere Nick - Islam isn't a state, it's a religion.
It is an ideology.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Mere Nick - Islam isn't a state, it's a religion.
It is an ideology.
No, it's a religion. Just like Christianity and Judaism.
Alternatively, all three of those are ideologies rather than religions. Up to you, but whatever you categorise one as you have to categorise the other two as as well.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
They all spawn ideologies that's for sure, but most aren't predicated on any rational ideal or morality.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Mere Nick - Islam isn't a state, it's a religion.
It is an ideology.
No, it's a religion. Just like Christianity and Judaism.
Alternatively, all three of those are ideologies rather than religions. Up to you, but whatever you categorise one as you have to categorise the other two as as well.
No. Jesus didn't tell me to fight others until they die, convert, or pay me protection money as a sign of being under submission to me.
There appears to not be a separation of mosque and state in Islam so it is an ideology. Wrapped in a cheap veneer of religiosity, sure, but an ideology.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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