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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is 'redneck' a hate-speech term and/ or racist?
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Yes, but that is not the main issue for the insult.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
I think, as Mere Nick pointed out earlier, that "Yankee" might be the American equivalent (at least if you're from the south.) "Snob" is a more common term. A few years ago I was dating a girl from Massachusetts. I mentioned this to a co-worker where I was interning, and his immediate response is "Oh, so is she one of those New England snobs?" My dad thought that was hilariously ironic.
This being America, I think everyone has their own way of being elitist.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
When I went to Washington DC some years ago, our local tour guide was very proud to tell us that he was a redneck. I was confused, as I'd thought it was abusive.
The old joke is that you can tell if someone is really a redneck by calling them a redneck. Real rednecks respond with violence. Fake rednecks will buy you a beer. There is a good deal of truth in this insofar as the original pejorative meaning has been diluted by educated people trying to embrace a rural lifestyle.
It is my experience that the word is used throughout the U.S., not just in the deep south.
I believe it is a classist or elitist term, not a racist one. I don't know whether it's a hate speech term or not, but the original meaning is certainly pejorative.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
When I went to Washington DC some years ago, our local tour guide was very proud to tell us that he was a redneck. I was confused, as I'd thought it was abusive.
The old joke is that you can tell if someone is really a redneck by calling them a redneck. Real rednecks respond with violence. Fake rednecks will buy you a beer. There is a good deal of truth in this insofar as the original pejorative meaning has been diluted by educated people trying to embrace a rural lifestyle.
It is my experience that the word is used throughout the U.S., not just in the deep south.
I believe it is a classist or elitist term, not a racist one. I don't know whether it's a hate speech term or not, but the original meaning is certainly pejorative.
I think there's a bit of a grey zone between authentic rednecks as you describe them and educated people trying to embrace a "rural lifestyle."
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
My experience is that the term is widely used throughout the US, but the specific meaning varies a lot based on the circumstances.
Initially it referred to people such as construction workers and road crews who had to wear hard hats; farmers typically wore straw hats with a wider brim all around until ball caps became ubiquitous (which might have roughly coincided with the advent of closed-cab tractors); cowboys and many farm workers also wore wide-brimmed sombreros. [Spanish for "hat".]
Now I hear it used several ways: most commonly as an indicator of a simplistic, self-centered conservative view of the world, usually associated with intolerant attitudes. Less often it also implies a level of rural (or semi-rural) poverty and slovenly living. Neither of these are race-specific, and are capable of being changed, so I don't consider the term racist. (It often implies that the person to whom the term is applied might hold racist or other bigoted views, however.)
The racial version is "poor white trash", which translates as "useless as a nigger, 'cept'n they're white." I rarely hear this term, and was probably in my 20's before I encountered it the first time. (But then, my family didn't talk much about rednecks, either.)
Back when I worked on forest crews, the big source of division (and group identification) was the length of one's hair: if it was short enough to expose your neck to the sun you were a redneck, while if it was long enough to cover your neck you were a hippie. Conservative/liberal politics were assumed to follow accordingly. Rednecks got drunk, drove pickup trucks, and went hunting; hippies got stoned, drove old Volkswagen vans, and ate vegetables. It was a simple world where people were easily classified.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Origin of redneck, classist not racist.
Origin of White Trash, still more classist than racist, but the racism is in a different direction than most think.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
So if, say, a Native American used it to refer to a pick-up driver who'd just told him to piss off back where he came from, the usage would probably not be racist since the Native American user would be using it to refer derogatively to the pick-up driver's bigoted attitude?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
Exactly.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
[qb] When I went to Washington DC some years ago, our local tour guide was very proud to tell us that he was a redneck. I was confused, as I'd thought it was abusive.
The old joke is that you can tell if someone is really a redneck by calling them a redneck. Real rednecks respond with violence. Fake rednecks will buy you a beer.
I'm a hillbilly, or better put, an Appalachian-American and would much prefer that you buy the beer.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
I always wondered about the supposed origin of the word redneck from anyone who had a sunburned neck due to regular outdoor work of any kind... becuase anyone who REGULARLY does this would have a nicely tanned neck, not a red one. sunburn only happens when you are rarely in the sun. so seems to me, if the term redneck has any relationship to sun burn (which I actually doubt.. the red bandana root seems more plausible to me), then it would reasonably refer to someone who is sort of a "weekend warior" when it comes to outdoor work. a term I could see being used by "real" farmers (or wahtever) to describe those who spend their weeks in suits in offices in town, but come to the country and pretend to be be "one of us", but can be identified as posers by their red necks.
That's just my own philosophising. I actually don't think the term was ever used in this way, but it seems like it would make more sense than actually referring to farmers.
Regardless of history, where I live (Virginia.. home of MANY rednecks) it's generally used to describe those who live more rural lives and is never used specifically as a racial slur by anyone. While it does refer mostly to white people, it's definitely not their whiteness which is being criticized (or praised as the case may be), but rather their "simple" lifestyle and outlook on life.
We are a rural county which has only in the last 20 years or so become home to many suburbanites who commute to the city. so the term locally is often used to distinguish between the two: long time local with historic ties to the area (usually with a last name Decatur, pronounced dee-KAY-tur), regardless of social standing or income, vs. newcomer.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
I always wondered about the supposed origin of the word redneck from anyone who had a sunburned neck due to regular outdoor work of any kind... becuase anyone who REGULARLY does this would have a nicely tanned neck, not a red one. sunburn only happens when you are rarely in the sun. so seems to me, if the term redneck has any relationship to sun burn (which I actually doubt.. the red bandana root seems more plausible to me), then it would reasonably refer to someone who is sort of a "weekend warior" when it comes to outdoor work. a term I could see being used by "real" farmers (or wahtever) to describe those who spend their weeks in suits in offices in town, but come to the country and pretend to be be "one of us", but can be identified as posers by their red necks.
That's just my own philosophising. I actually don't think the term was ever used in this way, but it seems like it would make more sense than actually referring to farmers.
It would make sense, but is actually the opposite of the way the term is used.
More likely perhaps would be that the "weekend farmers" coined the term to describe the real rural dwellers they interacted with, perhaps assuming they'd have red necks based on their own experiences.
Although seasonal variation is such that I think even someone who is out in the sun every day is going to get a sunburn from time to time if they aren't using sunscreen.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
Seems to me that the word is a label for a particular male subculture found in parts of the rural USA.
When used of an individual to denote membership of that subculture, such usage may be accurate or inaccurate, and neutral or ironic or derisive (and tone of voice will indicate whether derision is intended).
Certainly neither "hate speech" or racist of itself.
Is it the fact that tone of voice doesn't come across online that makes people over-sensitive to words which could conceivably carry negative overtones ?
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
I always wondered about the supposed origin of the word redneck from anyone who had a sunburned neck due to regular outdoor work of any kind... becuase anyone who REGULARLY does this would have a nicely tanned neck, not a red one. sunburn only happens when you are rarely in the sun.
There are some people whose skin never tans; it just gets redder and redder. I have the impression that people with this skin type are unusually common in the South.
Moo
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Russ:
...a particular male subculture found in parts of the rural USA....
Female redneck.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
lilbuddha wrote:
quote:
Origin of White Trash, still more classist than racist, but the racism is in a different direction than most think.
I never saw Gone With The Wind until my late 30s or early 40s, and I was rather startled to see "white trash" used in that film by the slaves.
I'm kind of surprised that bit of dialogue isn't more well-known, given how commonly used the phrase is today, and that GWTW is one of the most quoted films in history.
[ 26. January 2013, 16:57: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
This is from wikipeadia. If true, it certainly has deeper connotations:
In Scotland in the 1640s, the Covenanters rejected rule by bishops, often signing manifestos using their own blood. Some wore red cloth around their neck to signify their position, and were called rednecks by the Scottish ruling class to denote that they were the rebels in what came to be known as The Bishop's War that preceded the rise of Cromwell. Eventually, the term began to mean simply "Presbyterian", especially in communities along the Scottish border. Because of the large number of Scottish immigrants in the pre-revolutionary American south, some historians have suggested that this may be the origin of the term in the United States.
Dictionaries document the earliest American citation of the term's use for Presbyterians in 1830, as "a name bestowed upon the Presbyterians of Fayetteville [North Carolina]".
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Seems to me that the word is a label for a particular male subculture found in parts of the rural USA.
When used of an individual to denote membership of that subculture, such usage may be accurate or inaccurate, and neutral or ironic or derisive (and tone of voice will indicate whether derision is intended).
Certainly neither "hate speech" or racist of itself.
Is it the fact that tone of voice doesn't come across online that makes people over-sensitive to words which could conceivably carry negative overtones ?
Best wishes,
Russ
It is a kind of word that a local can use easier than an outsider can. I could say it here easier than you could and I suspect you could say "Mick" or "Paddy" easier in Ireland than I could. In fact,though, I wouldn't even bother. I would rather say "Guinness, please" and politely inquire as to which is greater, the beauty of Ireland or the graciousness of the Irish people.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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Bean Sidhe
Shipmate
# 11823
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Posted
From what I pick up of US usage, 'redneck' does seem to have derogatory connotations, of being ill-educated, bigoted etc. Perhaps not as much so as 'trailer trash' or 'white trash' - the latter perhaps most offensive with a racist implication that trashiness is normally about non-whites, except in the case of poor whites.
As has been said, the nearest UK equivalent is probably 'chav' - not explicitly derogatory, nobody seems sure where it comes from, there are various accounts. But the stereotype is similar. Ill-educated, welfare-dependent, procreating like rabbits, probably obese, slutty, bigoted, drunken and gross. All part of demonising the poor so we can pull the safety-net from under them and still sleep at nights.
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His lips are moving.
Danny DeVito
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
lilbuddha wrote:
quote:
Origin of White Trash, still more classist than racist, but the racism is in a different direction than most think.
I never saw Gone With The Wind until my late 30s or early 40s, and I was rather startled to see "white trash" used in that film by the slaves.
I'm kind of surprised that bit of dialogue isn't more well-known, given how commonly used the phrase is today, and that GWTW is one of the most quoted films in history.
"Cracker" is one that's still in use, at least in some pop culture media. I've never seen that phrase used in earnest, personally, but that might be my own cultural background.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
I have heard that "cracker" originated in central Florida and was applied to local cattle ranchers who herded their cattle with a whip. Thus the crack of the whip was associated with these ranchers.
OK, fellow shipmates, I'm asking for those among you with valid authority to do so to absolve me from the grievous sin of trying to watch both Downton Abbey and Honey Boo Boo at the same time a few weeks ago. My finger was going wild on the remote control button. I don't know why I've been watching HBB. It's like driving by a terrible car accident and I know I shouldn't look but I can't help it. Frau Organmeister thinks I have truly lost it.
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I promise I won't try it again.
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monkeylizard
Ship's scurvy
# 952
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
I have heard that "cracker" originated in central Florida and was applied to local cattle ranchers who herded their cattle with a whip. Thus the crack of the whip was associated with these ranchers.
I've heard that theory, but I more commonly hear that its origin is from whip-cracking slave drivers. Not to be confused with the wealthy slave-owners. The lower-class whites would actually be out in the hot fields cracking a whip, if they weren't working the fields themselves.
Either way, it seems to have originated in the 18th or 19th century, originated in the southern US, and denoted a low-educated/low-class white person.
[ 28. January 2013, 20:21: Message edited by: monkeylizard ]
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I'm skeptical of those explanations of the etymology of cracker.
There is a very tiny place in the mountains of Virginia called Cracker's Neck. There were few, if any slaves in those mountains, and AFAIK they didn't have that many draft animals either.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
Moo, if "cracker" did originate in central Florida it's entirely possible that it spread to other areas of the South.
HOWEVER, I seem to recall that in a discussion of "cracker" on How the States Got Their Shapes, someone quoted a passage from one of Shakespeare's plays where he used the term "cracker"....can't recall the play.
Does anyone have access to the OED?
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
A quick check of Wikipedia says the play is King John.
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
But that's a different meaning of the word "cracker". On this side of the Atlandtic it means someone who is talkative or lively. It seems to be used pejoratively in that play as if it meant boastful or a windbag, but it is mostly be used approvingly. I have heard it used as a compliment. (There also, confusingly,l seems to be a slighly different meaning of "cracker" to mean good-looking or attractive, which I guess might come from the same origin)
Its related to "crack" meaning jokes or fun or conversation or entertainment. (Which for some reason is almost universally taken as an Irish word these days when in fact its a perfectly good English word that has been inthe language since the Middle Ages - though perhaps became localised in parts of Scotland and the North of England - and was borrowed into the Irish language in recent decades.)Its related to words like to things like "wisecrack" for a joke, or "cracking a joke" or "not what its cracked up to be" for something that isn;t as good as its sales pitch. (I think my Mum uses that last phrase a lot, I'm not sure why!)
Anyway, in modern British and Irish English, calling someone a "cracker" is a compliment, though perhaps not a very common one. I'm not likely to use it, but I can think of more than one person who does. Usually in the phrase "a right cracker". If you Google for that the first hit is a Sun headline over a photograph of a young woman's bum...
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
hmm. I have only heard the term "cracker" used by blacks to describe whites (similar to the formerly used "honkey"). Not to say that's the only usage, but it's what I have heard around here.
having just looked on wikipedia, I can see that this has it's root in slightly different usage, but what I have heard locally is applied to ANY white person by a black person. This is among HS aged kids mostly, so I don't know if they just don't know about the more specific use?
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
I have only heard the term "cracker" used by blacks to describe whites '
Most Brits would be surprised by that usage. It never made it over here.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Usually in the phrase "a right cracker". If you Google for that the first hit is a Sun headline over a photograph of a young woman's bum...
Pun not intended, yeah?
Humorous take on cracker from an American perspective. (at about 1:15)
should be work-safe, except for watching youtube at work...)
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
The only senses I have ever heard 'cracker' used are Ken's 'a right cracker' - a bit old fashioned now, I would have thought - and a crispy savoury biscuit to go with cheese.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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