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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: An in/out referendum on EU membership
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
Depends on the renegotiated bits...
If I don't think they're right then it will be 'out' but I imagine I will be satisfied enough for it to be 'in' with the changes.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Any referendum would be on accepting/rejecting the renegotiated terms of membership. Which in turn suggests that Mr Cameron would himself be recommending 'yes' (having spent all that time haggling 'n'that).
It is also the other side of a general election (result to be decided).
So I would have to say I think it is primarily designed to herd support away from UKIP against that same election.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
This, of course, presupposes that David Cameron will be able to make any headway in the re-negotiations. I wouldn't bet too much on this.
But there is a deeper flaw in this. The UK electorate will be asked to decide on staying in the EU or leaving, based on the renegotiated terms. But the key decision should surely be "should we be in the EU or not. Full stop." The renegotiation of terms is a bit of a red herring. If the nation decides that we shouldn't be in the EU, then there is no point renegotiating terms. If, on the other hand, the decision is that the UK SHOULD be in the EU, then this becomes the point at which we can seriously talk about terms and the way forward.
What is the point of the rest of the EU going to great lengths to try and accommodate the UK, if, at the end of the day, we're on the way out anyway?
IMHO - the UK HAS to remain in the EU. I have yet to see any serious attempt to address the economic and business problems that would ensue from leaving the EU. The UK would become marginalised and disadvantaged. It is in the nation's interests to be in the EU - but we won't get the other key players (such as Germany and France) to treat us seriously until we are properly committed to the EU.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I think he's drawn most of the poison from the sting of UKIP by announcing this and thus will avoid a dangerous split in the right-wing vote, but I don't think he will be able to swing Jack with the other EU member states.
[ 23. January 2013, 14:19: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
If there were to be some re-negotiation, presumably other countries would want to express their own views and tinker with a few things. And there's certainly a strong argument that the eurozone countries should be renegotiating a few things about how the eurozone is run. Which is all fine, but I don't see how all this would have been concluded by the deadline for the referendum.
Especially if the whole process is kicked off by a government that's currently behind in the polls; EU countries who don't see the point might decide it's easier to drag their feet until 2015 and hope the whole thing goes away.
So what happens in 2018 when the discussions are going well but we haven't got the new treaty agreed yet? Do we have a referendum on whether we agree with a document that hasn't been written or does David Cameron break his promise?
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I think we have an in/out referendum on what ever has been achieved by then, even if nothing has been achieved
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
Especially if the whole process is kicked off by a government that's currently behind in the polls; EU countries who don't see the point might decide it's easier to drag their feet until 2015 and hope the whole thing goes away.
There is a point there, which is why many on the right of the Conservative Party were pushing for a piece of legislation ensuring that the referendum occured.
I also wonder if there is more we could do with the Commonwealth. Whilst I know it has not been completely ignored, it is possible to ressurect it and utilise for good.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I worry about referenda on this sort of thing. It's the sort of issue over which everyone has an opinion, but I'm not sure it's very informed.
I, for example, an buggered if I know whether we should be in, out, or shaking it all about.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Sighthound
Shipmate
# 15185
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Posted
It's actually pretty difficult to renegotiate the rules of a club when all the other members think the rules are fine, and that you are a sad loser. That is the key problem.
The honest position is in (and try to work patiently to improve it) or out. What Cameron is doing is a bit like me joining the Tory Party and trying to persuade them to bring in nationalization and high taxes for the rich. Progress is likely to be limited at best.
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Supporter of Tia Greyhound and Lurcher Rescue.http://tiagreyhounds.org/
Posts: 168 | From: England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I think he's drawn most of the poison from the sting of UKIP by announcing this and thus will avoid a dangerous split in the right-wing vote, but I don't think he will be able to swing Jack with the other EU member states.
I reckon that's the purpose of his statement; in 2015 UKIP, probably bolstered by some Tory MPs and a lot more Tory voters opposed to the coalition and the EU, will be a serious threat almost anywhere in England. I doubt Cameron will ever be able to renegotiate much for the UK, let alone in two years, although he may get some changes if other EU states cooperate (and other EU members, mostly the founders, do want change), but that won't satisfy the Euro-septics who will demand his blood and we'll end up with some evil <expletive deleted> like Michael Gove in the hotseat.
Personally I don't think the anti-EU campaigners realise how much damage leaving the EU would do to Britain, British people and British business. Then again, if we did leave, who would they hold responsible for the absurd regulations that Britain has had since Alfred burnt the cakes?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I worry about referenda on this sort of thing. It's the sort of issue over which everyone has an opinion, but I'm not sure it's very informed.
I, for example, an buggered if I know whether we should be in, out, or shaking it all about.
Exactly. My personal bit of yelling at the radio (well, more snorting at the radio, but y'know) this morning was for "the public must have the chance to make an informed decision".
As if that's ever going to happen. My experience of the Great British public is that they are going to make an uninformed one.
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Personally I don't think the anti-EU campaigners realise how much damage leaving the EU would do to Britain, British people and British business.
Perhaps. But at the same time, do the pro-EU campaigners realise how much damage would be done by greater integration?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
I for one am hopeful that we will get the referendum, as Cameron has even promised the legislation to facilitate one occurring will be before the next general election, so he might not (if he wins that election) be able to weasel out of a referendum like he did on the EU Constitution (sorry, 'Lisbon Treaty' in EU-speak).
I would be very surprised to find any renegotiation of terms/treaties likely to be achievable in practice would be sufficient to stop me voting 'No' to the UK's continued EU membership.
[ 23. January 2013, 15:36: Message edited by: Alaric the Goth ]
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Personally I don't think the anti-EU campaigners realise how much damage leaving the EU would do to Britain, British people and British business.
Perhaps. But at the same time, do the pro-EU campaigners realise how much damage would be done by greater integration?
I think you've alluded to membership of the EU being a political DH, and as most people are on one side of the fence or the other (let's face it, Euro-Septic is largely anti-EU and those who are pro-EU are blind to most of the faults) so anyone with any credibility in either camp who tried to balance the arguments would be disowned by their own side before they got a fair hearing from t'other lot.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
I know I will vote to stay in, because whatever its pros and cons, it seems to me a better choice.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
I think Cameron is simply playing party politics and being duplicitous in the process.
His aim? To get the Tories elected in the next election.
His method? Silence the opposition which would draw off the necessaary votes. In this case the opposition is UKIP
His intention? To engage in a prolonged negotiating process which he hasn't a snowballs hope in a dust-storm of achieving.
Ultimately? In five years time the promised Referendum will never happen since Cameron has already reneged once on a cast-iron guarantee of a referendum. It never happened. Nor will it in future.
Cynical? Yes. But with very good reason.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
A lot of me is glad that we're getting the chance to vote on it, it's democracy in action.
But it's going to be like Christmas to a lot of people, and I just wish some of the other turkeys would think.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
I agree this is designed to draw votes away from UKIP and it will work.
But there is also another reason - in my view at any rate - and that is, if we do renoegotiate the treaty, and we vote to remain in, then that is the European issue that has vexed the Conservatives for a generation now put to bed for a good long time: the people have spoken, they want to remain in! Deal with it!
I think renegotiation wont be as much of an issue as people think. After all, what is it to Spain, Italy, Belgium etc if Britain has some more opt-outs, providing we are paying in? And as far as France and Germany are concerned, they each want us in to counterbalance the other one! At the moment they are posturing for public consumption, knowing that by the time any renegotiations are underway, the economic and political climnate in Europe will be different anyway.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I think Cameron is simply playing party politics and being duplicitous in the process.
His aim? To get the Tories elected in the next election.
His method? Silence the opposition which would draw off the necessary votes. In this case the opposition is UKIP
My sentiments entirely . I think it's emotional blackmail of the highest order.
Just the same way as the main political parties hijacked Green politics.
Cameron knows the anxiety is out there , immigration , wobbly Euro , etc. etc.
Then if he's back on a second term, (hoping for a majority), we'll all be brainwashed into voting 'yes' to Europe just like last time.
All a bit boring really. But then peace and prosperity is boring.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I think Cameron is simply playing party politics and being duplicitous in the process.
His aim? To get the Tories elected in the next election.
His method? Silence the opposition which would draw off the necessaary votes. In this case the opposition is UKIP
His intention? To engage in a prolonged negotiating process which he hasn't a snowballs hope in a dust-storm of achieving.
Ultimately? In five years time the promised Referendum will never happen since Cameron has already reneged once on a cast-iron guarantee of a referendum. It never happened. Nor will it in future.
Cynical? Yes. But with very good reason.
Quite so.
In years past, albeit under a Rotten Borough, Scot and Lot etc. system, candidates at least had the decency to stand those enfranchised a free bar prior to the election. Here we are with same old "vote for me, jam* tomorrow".
Cameron - must try harder. Even better, must fuck off.
* same old shit flavour jam at that.
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
I think it's refreshing. It is high time the issue was got out in the open and debated sensibly. Of course it will take votes away from UKIP - who have only had any support because mainstream politicans keep trying to avoid the Europe issue despite public concern on the subject.
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I think Cameron is simply playing party politics and being duplicitous in the process.
His aim? To get the Tories elected in the next election.
His method? Silence the opposition which would draw off the necessary votes. In this case the opposition is UKIP
My sentiments entirely . I think it's emotional blackmail of the highest order.
Rather unlikely considering that by adopting such a tactic Cameron might end up PM of a somewhat reduced state, e.g, one without Scotland (and the EU).
I doubt that's the legacy he'd prefer.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
We voted on this nearly 40 years ago. Why should anyone vote on it again? A succession of weak political leaders of both major parties but particularly the Conservatives, over the years since should have had the guts to tell UKIP and its predecessors 'this has been decided; shut up'.
This is being made an issue now solely so as to try and hold the Conservative party together, to stop them leaching some of their less attractive voters to UKIP. It is not in the country's interest.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
We voted on this nearly 40 years ago. Why should anyone vote on it again?
40 years ago the vote was about whether to join a free trade area or not. These days it's about how much sovereignty the country should retain (I say "all of it"), and how much it should surrender to a bunch of unelected foreign oligarchs (I say "fuck them all").
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I think Cameron is simply playing party politics and being duplicitous in the process.
His aim? To get the Tories elected in the next election.
His method? Silence the opposition which would draw off the necessaary votes. In this case the opposition is UKIP
His intention? To engage in a prolonged negotiating process which he hasn't a snowballs hope in a dust-storm of achieving.
Ultimately? In five years time the promised Referendum will never happen since Cameron has already reneged once on a cast-iron guarantee of a referendum. It never happened. Nor will it in future.
Cynical? Yes. But with very good reason.
I agree. I also think it shameful that an important issue such as this is being used for entirely party political purposes. The PM is pro-Europe so he has no need to suggest a referendum other than for strategic political reasons. This is sheer electioneering and not statesman-like, he's suggesting a referendum on a subject for which he doesn't know the question, for 5 years time when he might not be in power. Yet he criticised the SNP for wanting to put off their referendum for a couple of years.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
We voted on this nearly 40 years ago. Why should anyone vote on it again?
40 years ago the vote was about whether to join a free trade area or not. These days it's about how much sovereignty the country should retain (I say "all of it"), and how much it should surrender to a bunch of unelected foreign oligarchs (I say "fuck them all").
Like Murdoch?
In any case, I have British citizenship and therefore have the entitlement to live in Poland unhindered, and also to have health insurance here and pay contributions for a pension. I can also have a firm in Germany with no bother. I can travel across the Polish-German border with no bother (though having white skin helps).
I also do work with the EC-financed Youth in Action which enables me to do work about anti-discrimination, prejudice and historical education.
The EU is flawed in being an exercise in capitalist domination (a referendum on a Federation of Marxist-Anarchist collectives would be more my thing) and (partly through the aforementioned Youth in Action programme) to some degree accepts the "nationality" part of ones identify to be the most important one (as is the problem with nation states) and I would like to see hefty reforms (though not reforms that most here would want), but for me the question is a no brainer.
As it is, to return to my opening point, there are people (say, multinationals, or, regarding climate change, our lazy and short-sighted selves) who influence our lives here in the EU much more than the EC.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
...to some degree accepts the "nationality" part of ones identify to be the most important one (as is the problem with nation states)...
It's funny how so many of the people who say stuff like this when talking about the EU get really angry when you suggest that the same logic means all those African and Asian countries were wrong to seek self-determination. After all, nationality and the nation state don't matter, do they?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Sioni Sais: quote:
let's face it, Euro-Septic is largely anti-EU and those who are pro-EU are blind to most of the faults
I think you're being too pessimistic here. The EU has loads of faults that aren't going to go away, and I dislike it on many levels. But overall I think it's better for Britain, and for Europe, if we stay in.
Mind you, there was only one person who made me really pro Europe, and that was Thatcher. Anything she hated had to have some good points.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Two things worry me:
1) People talk endlessly about what's in the best interests of Britain. How selfish is that? We'll remain in the club or take our bats home.
What other measure should we use other than 'is it broadly in our interests to be a member'? We could be masochistic about it and not think about ourselves, but I doubt any other member states work on that principle.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
This, of course, presupposes that David Cameron will be able to make any headway in the re-negotiations. I wouldn't bet too much on this.
Exactly.
The lack of specifics is worrying. It's not as though "Let's renegotiate our relationship with the EU!" is a new policy for the Tories. William Hague and Iain Duncan Smith wanted it, and I seem to remember the Tories pledging to fly to Brussels when they were elected to renegotiate some treaty or other (I forget if that was Howard's or Cameron's idea). In all those years, you'd have thought they'd have developed a more concrete idea of what they wanted and what was feasible.
quote:
But the key decision should surely be "should we be in the EU or not. Full stop." The renegotiation of terms is a bit of a red herring.
Yes. And what if their renegotiated terms are crap? Suppose they negotiate a possibility where Britain has the same status as Norway. I think the EU needs reform but I would rather stick with the status quo than be in Norway's situation. But apparently that wouldn't be an option on Mr Cameron's referendum.
[ 24. January 2013, 10:25: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Scotland is more likely to vote for independence so that it can stay in the EU.
Didn't we go over this a month or two ago?
Scotland seceding from the UK would require they apply for brand new memberships in all international organisations, and their application for EU membership would also require the Euro and Schengen, so no common currency or open border with the slightly-less-United Kingdom. If they piss off the UK in the process, the UK can use their power to veto all Scottish participation in the UN until the Scots shift to a more agreeable position.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
...to some degree accepts the "nationality" part of ones identify to be the most important one (as is the problem with nation states)...
It's funny how so many of the people who say stuff like this when talking about the EU get really angry when you suggest that the same logic means all those African and Asian countries were wrong to seek self-determination. After all, nationality and the nation state don't matter, do they?
You've made a false assumption about me. I'm all for self-determination.
I'm also for discussion about whether nation states are needed. It's relevant here in Poland. I support the creation of the Polish nation state in 1918 while still wondering, like Róża Luksemburg whether people need to be put together into artificial categories in order to liberate them.
It is clear to me that those counties that came into existence during the 20th century had people who had the right to want the same thing that more powerful countries had already had for some time. To deny them that right would be racist.
It is also clear to me that one can at the same time question whether those more powerful nation states should have come into existence in the first place. Especially (to bring this back on-topic) when over 18.000 people have died due to Fortress Europe.
Here's another nuance for you: One can be pro-EU while at the same time be against some of its policies, including its most essential policies.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
...to some degree accepts the "nationality" part of ones identify to be the most important one (as is the problem with nation states)...
It's funny how so many of the people who say stuff like this when talking about the EU get really angry when you suggest that the same logic means all those African and Asian countries were wrong to seek self-determination. After all, nationality and the nation state don't matter, do they?
Well actually, quite a few of those African countries aren't nation-states, they're multinational with a large number of cultures and languages...
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
I'm all for self-determination.
I'm also for discussion about whether nation states are needed.
I fail to see how you can have one without the other.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
orfeo, yeah, you're right.
Marvin: Self-determination doesn't just mean having nation states. Anarchist collectives are self-determinating.
And in the Real World, where people live...?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
The EU is flawed in being an exercise in capitalist domination
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) We're obviously talking about two different EUs here...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Marvin: Self-determination doesn't just mean having nation states. Anarchist collectives are self-determinating.
They also don't really work on scales much larger than a few dozen people.
But you know what? If that's the sort of thing you're advocating then I'd be all for it. It would be several steps further away from the continent-wide superstate that I dread.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Two things worry me:
1) People talk endlessly about what's in the best interests of Britain. How selfish is that? We'll remain in the club or take our bats home.
What other measure should we use other than 'is it broadly in our interests to be a member'? We could be masochistic about it and not think about ourselves, but I doubt any other member states work on that principle.
What we have to contribute.
What we can share.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
This is exactly the kind of thing that arouses my specticism of nations states. A lot of time and attention is given to the nationality part of the identity. Whole myths are concocted of who we are and what has happened. This then introduces, in the context of the EU the dichtomy of "you're either one of us or one of them". Like I am can only be Welsh and not be a Pole, like there are no others parts to my identity.
There is a tradition of international socialism. I am not sure how widespread this is now. I am also not sure whether this was simply European or whether it means European workers having a stronger role in the domination by the north of the south. I do know though that in our daily lives it is not just our nationalities that are relevant.
Workers' rights, having disabilities, ones sexual persuasion, dietry needs, musical likings (whether you like metal or are heretics ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ), the type of work you tend to do, whether you prefer to live in nature or in cities, these are all very relevant things, and they are the same (or at least similar) things no matter where one lives. Certainly there are differences.
There is therefore no "British perspective" as such, or if there is it is just one voice among many with regards to what people from GB may be saying. Cameron doesn't speak for me. Neither did Blair. I have more in common with my working-class family from Mała-Polska than with Cameron.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Marvin: Self-determination doesn't just mean having nation states. Anarchist collectives are self-determinating.
They also don't really work on scales much larger than a few dozen people.
But you know what? If that's the sort of thing you're advocating then I'd be all for it. It would be several steps further away from the continent-wide superstate that I dread.
So it seems that other than music we are more in common than I would have thought. To tell the truth I am not sure what I want. I have actual little contact with (in comparison to others) radical politics and I believe that people by and large are not so sure of alternatives to the present, and that the word "alternative" gets coupled with "communism" and "gułags". Certainly, there are plenty small-scale communities, largely anarchistic that work. I'm not too sure how that would work on a larger scale (by which I mean federations of collectives) and also with regard to law.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
The EU is flawed in being an exercise in capitalist domination
We're obviously talking about two different EUs here...
Cross-pond comparison, but there are American leftists who regard the New Deal as the epitome of modern managerial capitalism, and on the other hand, those who regard it as a forerunner(albeit a truncated one) of social democracy. Probably the latter would generally classify themselves more as liberal than leftist, though.
I'd imagine you have the same sort of division in Europe with regards to the EU. Centre-leftists(ie. the kind of people who identify with the state in-and-of-itself as a positive force) like it, those of a more adversarial bent(eg. Marxists etc) are suspicious.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
I think it's refreshing. It is high time the issue was got out in the open and debated sensibly. Of course it will take votes away from UKIP - who have only had any support because mainstream politicians keep trying to avoid the Europe issue despite public concern on the subject.
The last time the Tories tried to debate Britain's role in Europe openly and sensibly it split them down the middle and caused them an electoral defeat of spectacular and humiliating proportions.
I'm not altogether sure what cameron is doing with this , but I'm damn sure he's got more sense than to wake that ghost up.
Lets face reality, Britain has to put a cork up it's arse everytime there's even a murmour of the euro going bust . The financial ramifications of us exiting the E.U. altogether, by comparison, makes it a total fantasy .
Mind you if France and Germany have a bust up ?
Well then history says that would be the end of the E.U. and our part in it. But if ever that were to happen the sound of champagne corks popping would soon be overshadowed by a sound more familiar to Europe -- Gunfire.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
This is exactly the kind of thing that arouses my specticism of nations states. A lot of time and attention is given to the nationality part of the identity. Whole myths are concocted of who we are and what has happened. This then introduces, in the context of the EU the dichtomy of "you're either one of us or one of them". Like I am can only be Welsh and not be a Pole, like there are no others parts to my identity.
I think one of the issues is simply a geographical one, that people in continental Europe are much more used to the idea that different 'nations' of peoples live side by side and gradually mix, rather than having bright lines between them, simply because that's what happens.
I certainly got struck by this as I went around parts of Central Europe for the first time a few years ago, and observed the history of cities I visited.
Whereas the UK has a rather large and obvious natural boundary that tends to make it much easier to think in terms of a distinction between the people on one side and the people on the other.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Scotland is more likely to vote for independence so that it can stay in the EU.
Didn't we go over this a month or two ago?
Scotland seceding from the UK would require they apply for brand new memberships in all international organisations, and their application for EU membership would also require the Euro and Schengen, so no common currency or open border with the slightly-less-United Kingdom.
Furthermore, there are a number of countries who have separatist regions who wouldn't be all that happy with setting the precedent that breakway regions would have automatic EU membership.
There are various Spanish and Hungarian politicians who are on record as stating that they would vote against Scottish membership of the EU for this reason.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
I was trying to find the comment on trying to compare the situation to the Scottish referendum... but I can't, but anyway:
There is a big difference between an EU referendum and the Scottish one in that Alex Salmond has decide to have a vote without presenting the electorate with the political, economic and social situation after the referendum comes down on either side - at the moment the only one thing we know for sure is that and independent Scotland would have to reapply to join the EU without any of the opt-outs that the UK currently has.
The EU referendum is to come after negotiations on a new relationship have taken palce.
Alex Salmond could have held the referendum the day after the legislation was passed, it would have made little difference, except that polls indicated he would have had a thumping defeat rather than a victory. David Cameron can't hold a referendum tomorrow as there is no new deal to present to the electorate - as for exacts at the minute, well that still has to be decided in depth but there is enough to glean from the speeches made to indicate where powers would be looked at and negotiations attempted.
As for uncertainty, although the BBc seems to have moved the actual article, this blog , does give an indication that business is not so concerned as some might paint the picture to be. There is more to Britain than having a place within the EU - which I forsee it having long into the future, but on some sort of renegotiated terms, Britain is not alone in wanting to have renegotiation of terms, most countries to less of an extent than Britain, and some individual European politicians more so... Britain is not alone here, and as the EU changes to meet the needs of the Euro, those outside of the Euro need to have a voice and be taken care of, especially if they wish to continue to see us produce the membership fee every year...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
As for uncertainty, although the BBC seems to have moved the actual article, this blog , does give an indication that business is not so concerned as some might paint the picture to be.
That article is based on a single data point - a conversation with one CEO whose business - constructing new power stations in the UK - is likely to be there whether or not the UK is in the EU.
quote:
Britain is not alone here, and as the EU changes to meet the needs of the Euro, those outside of the Euro need to have a voice and be taken care of, especially if they wish to continue to see us produce the membership fee every year...
There's a fiction that the UK stumps up and never gets anything in return. It's merely that - a fiction.
The best the PM is likely to get out of Europe is some kind of fig-leaf - the worst he'll get within a looser arrangement is EU laws without the ability to influence them at all.
[ 25. January 2013, 14:28: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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