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Source: (consider it) Thread: Dying for Christ
Martin60
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# 368

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Janani Luwum, Oscar Romero and Jerzy Popiełuszko died for Christ.

For speaking to power in His name. For declaring His righteousness, His gospel, His salvation of the world beyond His incarnation, death and resurrection.

They didn't die for having the label Christian. For His name by itself. Like poor Christians in northern Nigeria or Mali. Or many in the ancient accounts of martyrdom who die for the label as much as anything.

They didn't die for telling the story of his incarnation, death and resurrection or even that it is 'essential' to believe the middle part to be personally saved.

They died for emulating Him in speaking to power about injustice.

How does dying in a car bombing while going to church witness to Him by comparison ?

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Love wins

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QLib

Bad Example
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I've often wondered about the saying "comparisons are odious" but I think it's apt here. Martin - this sounds like a potentially tasteless competition. I don't see where you're going with it.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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Martin60
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I'm sure it is QLib.

We Christians are quick to claim martyrdom and persecution (Charles Moore of the Daily Telegraph on BBC Radio 4's Today programme this morning, driving me ever liberal by complaining about gay marriage, its impact on tradition, on 'beliefs' and those who believe them) for Jesus sake, name, whatever.

What is His (name's) sake?

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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The OP makes a point that I'm working through for several years. The main thrust of Christianity seems to have been some mix of salvation for the person and to follow the authority of those who say they "know".

Those who've actually warranted our attention haven't been into either of these things. Jesus included. So I think Martin, that you are right. Now if only someone could actually tell me how to live a Christian life that didn't emphasize my personal salvation and obeying those people who claim to know but seem twisted.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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IngoB

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Wow.

Just...

Wow.

Well, Martin, the Roman soldiers spat on Christ, so I guess you pissing on the martyr's graves just adds to their glory in following the Lord.

Still.

Just...

Wow.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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QLib

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Ah. Light dawns.

It's not Martin pissing on the martyrs' graves, IngoB, it's the poeple claiming martyrdom on the basis of being members of a minority group.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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Martin60
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# 368

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Spot on QLib. Including some of the ACCOUNTS of the martyrs and their use.

Your misunderstanding is natural, given my meandering ways and fascinating IngoB. Funny what we bring to the party isn't it?

The early Christian martyrs who died to defend taking the eucharist or other acts of worship actually died for being subversives, for denying the perfection, the deity of Caesar, that he was lord.

For identifying with Jesus speaking to power without coercion, without temporal power. Dead by the sword for using the sword of His mouth.

That is not the case for the vast majority of Christians killed since.

All too often in dubious battle.

Since Caesar cloaked his power with the name of Christ and Christians gave up speaking to the power that compromised them.

Not that the obscene suffering of Christians for that name, going quietly, otherwise invisibly about their lives in the main, in Iraq, Nigeria, India, Indonesia, Pakistan, you name it, is to be shrugged at.

But what's in a name?

What's in a 'belief'.

Where are persecuted Christians loving their enemies ? By making them in the first place other than by being 'other' ?

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
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This may be tangential to the way this thread seems to be developing, but it was my first thought on reading the OP.

I just saw this on facebook today:
Holy Virgin Martyrs Martha and Mary

Apparently these two sisters had a death wish (they wanted to suffer for Christ) and chased down some poor "pagan military commander," shouting that they were Christians, and when the commander couldn't ignore them any longer, they would up crucified.

Where's the witness in that? What is the inherent virtue in suffering for suffering's sake (I'm sorry, for Christ's sake) v. living out a godly life of actual Christian witness?

At least in this case they weren't feigning persecution, but it seems wrong-headed to me to go about looking for persecution, especially when it's likely to find you anyway if you're living in an oppressive, anti-Christian culture and you go about doing Christ's work.

I could be wrong, of course, and this is me in 21st-c. America presuming to judge these ancient women, whose actions I'm only hearing about in a handed-down story. Maybe it's the story I should be blaming; it's retold, after all, to be exemplary to us, right?

(In case some facebook privacy setting won't allow people to access that link, here's the text with the icon of one of the sisters: )

quote:
Commemorated on February 6

The Holy Virgin Martyrs Martha and Mary were sisters who lived in Asia Minor, and fervently desired to suffer for the Lord Jesus Christ. Once, a pagan military commander marched past their house. The sisters went out to him and loudly declared that they were Christians. At first the commander paid no attention to them, but they persistently shouted after him, repeating their confession.

They were arrested together with their brother Lykarion. All three were crucified, and during the execution their mother came to them, encouraging them in their sufferings for Christ. The sisters were pierced with spears, and Lykarion was beheaded by the sword.



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I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

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Marvin the Martian

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Sounds more like suicide by cop than martyrdom to me...

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Hail Gallaxhar

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The Midge
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:

How does dying in a car bombing while going to church witness to Him by comparison ?

I suppose it depends on how much of a risk you know you are taking by engaging in public worship in a place that could be bombed or machine gunned half way through the service. It takes a certain amount of bravery to keep going when your neighbour is murdered. It is a stand for universal human rights if not Christ.

Most Christians or good people are not heros- just ordinary folk trying to do their best. We may be inspired by the big names but I believe that God sees the small act.

I think I'll leave putting my head down the lions throat to the circus performer.

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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.

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Laurelin
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Since nobody is likely to rape, bomb, burn or behead me 'just for being a Christian', I wouldn't dare comment on persecution, since I have no direct experience of its appalling reality.

I support Open Doors, which advocates for persecuted Christians around the world. According to Open Doors (and Amnesty International), there are 200,000 political prisoners languishing in North Korea's labour camps. 70,000 of these prisoners are Christians.

You bet these people are suffering precisely because they are Christians. They are a persecuted minority. (Just as other minorities, including political ones, are persecuted.)

I've been reading about the conditions in these camps. They are effing concentration camps. The conditions there are as horrific as anything perpetrated by the Reich. Or under Stalin. [Waterworks]

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Where are persecuted Christians loving their enemies ? By making them in the first place other than by being 'other' ?

Some persecuted Christians are able to attend seminars on reconciliation, trauma counselling and, yes, forgiving their enemies. They are only able to do so because organisations such as Open Doors make it possible.

My problem with the OP is that you seem to put Janani Luwum, Romero et al (incredibly brave and admirable people, of course) on the very same pedestal that you seem to object to in other instances. [Confused]

Christian martyrs are people. Not saints in a glass window. People. Ordinary people who sometimes get caught in a shitstorm, through no fault of their own, and behave with courage and integrity as the storm rages.

I think of nameless Christians who quietly helped Jews escape the Nazi terror, for example.

Or take Edith Stein, a controversial example in a way because she was murdered for being both a Jew and a Catholic, i.e. the fact she was Jewish marked her for murder by the regime, and the fact that she had become a Catholic nun didn't save her. Of course the Third Reich didn't gave a toss about her being a nun: they murdered plenty of Christians who defied them. John Paul II canonised her in 1998.

What do you make of Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who wrote so powerfully on the cost of discipleship and was executed for his part in the plot to assassinate Hitler?

[ 06. February 2013, 12:43: Message edited by: Laurelin ]

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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

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Hawk

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It has always been church teaching I understand that Christians should not seek martyrdom in any way. In fact they should attempt to avoid martyrdom through any means other than denying Christ, such as through hiding from the authorities in 'priest holes', running into exile, or tempering their language as far as possible.

In terms of being persecuted for Christ I think there are many people who like to claim this while actually they are just being disagreed with. Some are persecuted but more for their own stubbornness and lack of respect for others rather than 'for Christ'. I think that in these cases that using Christ's name for one's own ends or for self-agrandizement is to be avoided. Martyrdom is of course claimed by many who have no call to such a high honour. And this dilutes the honour and respect due to those who genuinely
do deserve such a title.

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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer

See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts

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Martin60
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churchgeek. Not tangential at all.

Aye it does MtM.

The Midge. To stand for universal human rights IS to stand for Christ, as Christ. That's what He did. From the beginning of His incarnate ministry to the end. Most Christians don't. I certainly haven't.

Laurelin. How and why are Christians DIFFERENT from other persecuted minorities? That Christians can forgive their enemies has VERY little to do with Western organisations. How are they making those enemies? What pedestal do I put those true martyrs on and where do I object to it?

Hawk. Your second paragraph is most apropos. How would we deny Christ? I submit that we're freely doing that with no coercion right now.

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Love wins

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The Midge
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:

The Midge. To stand for universal human rights IS to stand for Christ, as Christ. That's what He did. From the beginning of His incarnate ministry to the end. Most Christians don't. I certainly haven't.

Indeed. But not exclusively so as everyone who does so is not atempting to imitate Christ (and may be put out if we made that claim).

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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.

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Laurelin
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I really don't think it is up to me to decide who a 'true' martyr is. I don't get to make that call because I've never had to suffer for my faith in Christ. We're not talking about people fussing about gay rights. Elsewhere in the world Christians are facing true horrors (along with other persecuted minorities) and we in the Western church know diddly-squat about that level of suffering. So we don't get to judge.

I admire Bonhoeffer no less than I do Romero.

As for Open Doors, my point was a simple one - it is organisations like OD that give a damn, that help finance trauma counselling and reconciliation seminars for folk who need that kind of support. And, incidentally, help to train indigenous pastors, so it becomes a grassroots thing.

ETA: I agree with Hawk that we should not go looking for martyrdom. I have no desire to be persecuted, thanks very much. It is hideous. If we have the courage to stand up to a demonic regime - like the viciously racist and occultic Rhird Reich - then trouble will come.

[ 06. February 2013, 21:13: Message edited by: Laurelin ]

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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

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Laurelin
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We're not talking about people fussing about gay rights.

That was not very well expressed on my part. To avoid any possible misunderstanding, I was referring to people who are unhappy about other people campaigning for gay rights.

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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

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Martin60
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Laurelin. As for Bonhoeffer, I'm not fit to lick his boots, but he FAILED the test.

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Love wins

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rolyn
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Why did Bonhoeffer fail Martin ?
Was it because he joined a plot to kill A.H. instead of loving him .

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Jengie jon

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Martin

Did this guy fail the test? Paul Schneider has always made me more cautious about the words I use for Bonhoeffer. I am not belittling Bonhoeffer but I do feel a disquiet at describing his actions as Martyrdom. I think he may well have acted rightly according to the situation but it is connecting that directly with witnessing to the Christian faith I somehow struggle.

Jengie

[ 10. February 2013, 15:52: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:


Apparently these two sisters [Mary and Martha] had a death wish (they wanted to suffer for Christ) and chased down some poor "pagan military commander," shouting that they were Christians, and when the commander couldn't ignore them any longer, they would up crucified.

Where's the witness in that? What is the inherent virtue in suffering for suffering's sake (I'm sorry, for Christ's sake) v. living out a godly life of actual Christian witness?

At least in this case they weren't feigning persecution, but it seems wrong-headed to me to go about looking for persecution, especially when it's likely to find you anyway if you're living in an oppressive, anti-Christian culture and you go about doing Christ's work.


I'm unwilling to define martyrdom, but I can imagine that for some people, waiting at home quietly in the knowledge that sooner or later, the authorities will probably come to kill them, must be unbearable. By handing themselves in they're at least retaining a sense of agency. They would have had the time to put their affairs in order, whatever that required. And as women Mary and Martha might have felt that no other form of agency was open to them. Others will know better than I do how much control women had in the early church.

I can't imagine what it must be like to live under such psychological pressure, but doing something - anything - might be more tolerable than doing nothing.

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Martin60
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Aye rolyn. Jengie Jon, aye, Paul Schneider chose the yet more honourable way.

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Love wins

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barrea
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:


Apparently these two sisters [Mary and Martha] had a death wish (they wanted to suffer for Christ) and chased down some poor "pagan military commander," shouting that they were Christians, and when the commander couldn't ignore them any longer, they would up crucified.

Where's the witness in that? What is the inherent virtue in suffering for suffering's sake (I'm sorry, for Christ's sake) v. living out a godly life of actual Christian witness?

At least in this case they weren't feigning persecution, but it seems wrong-headed to me to go about looking for persecution, especially when it's likely to find you anyway if you're living in an oppressive, anti-Christian culture and you go about doing Christ's work.


I'm unwilling to define martyrdom, but I can imagine that for some people, waiting at home quietly in the knowledge that sooner or later, the authorities will probably come to kill them, must be unbearable. By handing themselves in they're at least retaining a sense of agency. They would have had the time to put their affairs in order, whatever that required. And as women Mary and Martha might have felt that no other form of agency was open to them. Others will know better than I do how much control women had in the early church.

I can't imagine what it must be like to live under such psychological pressure, but doing something - anything - might be more tolerable than doing nothing.



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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1

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barrea
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:


Apparently these two sisters [Mary and Martha] had a death wish (they wanted to suffer for Christ) and chased down some poor "pagan military commander," shouting that they were Christians, and when the commander couldn't ignore them any longer, they would up crucified.

Where's the witness in that? What is the inherent virtue in suffering for suffering's sake (I'm sorry, for Christ's sake) v. living out a godly life of actual Christian witness?

At least in this case they weren't feigning persecution, but it seems wrong-headed to me to go about looking for persecution, especially when it's likely to find you anyway if you're living in an oppressive, anti-Christian culture and you go about doing Christ's work.


I'm unwilling to define martyrdom, but I can imagine that for some people, waiting at home quietly in the knowledge that sooner or later, the authorities will probably come to kill them, must be unbearable. By handing themselves in they're at least retaining a sense of agency. They would have had the time to put their affairs in order, whatever that required. And as women Mary and Martha might have felt that no other form of agency was open to them. Others will know better than I do how much control women had in the early church.

I can't imagine what it must be like to live under such psychological pressure, but doing something - anything - might be more tolerable than doing nothing.

Sorry but I have never heard anything like this about Mary and Martha before. Where did you get it from, or have you just made it up?

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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1

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SvitlanaV2
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barrea

Is your post a response to churchgeek, or to me?

My comments were reflective. I was trying to imagine why Mary and Martha might have behaved as they did, according to Churchgeek's description of events.

[ 10. February 2013, 21:42: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Lamb Chopped
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Risking a guess--Barrea, the Mary and Martha in this story are not the ones we' re so familiar with, but another pair. And over-anxious runs at martyrdom do appear to have existed, tho' not necessarily among the Biblical cast. Later, rather.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
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Kaplan Corday
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Wow, what a relief!

I live in a relatively free and safe country where it doesn’t cost me a lot to be a Christian, but I have had my peace of mind most annoyingly disturbed by regular reports of the sufferings of Christians worldwide in less fortunate circumstances.

Now I know that ninety-nine percent of them are silly, useless buggers who don’t really deserve my admiration, concern, prayers, financial support or advocacy.

Next email I get about the situation in Eritrea, DRC, Vietnam or wherever, I'll be able to just think, "Stuff them", and relax.

Thank you.

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Martin60
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I have encountered, second hand but reliably, from sources that you Kaplan Corday would find impeccable, the vilest accounts of the persecution of those named for Christ. I screamed out loud at one. It was seven or so years ago. It still makes me weep now. I felt it as a blow, as freezing naus'ee. It traumatised me at least as much as any insult to demons I had encountered in the previous 50 years. It created a huge obstacle for me to being inclusive.

I now thank God that not only is that unspeakable horror redeemed for all the victims, but also for the perpetrators.

And you do not want to know.

The fanatic is incorruptible: if he kills for an idea, he can just as well get himself killed for one; in either case, tyrant or martyr, he is a monster. - Emile M. Cioran

[ 11. February 2013, 20:19: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]

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Love wins

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