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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How should God answer this prayer?
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
I have fought ten rounds with church leaders who have prayed, prophesised and promised healing to a friend dying of cancer. More over the fact they took no responsibility when death did come for their actions and the emotional and spiritual fallout that results than for trying for healing and failing.
And there's one of many reasons I no longer answer to the label "Christian," and why I find it impossible to summon up belief in some sort of benevolent supernatural deity.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I don't believe in answers any more. If I were to hold to the idea that prayers were answered, then God would necessarily be a monster because of our experience that he specifically ignored a daily prayer for protection and allowed a random and horrific action of violence to befall us. It would be as if in our asking, God decided to arrange the violence just because we asked, to test us, or otherwise squish us like so many ants. Just for fun. So we have given up on such expectation.
But I'm not saying prayers are useless. I don't think prayers are granted at a significant enough frequency to consider it relevant, if they are at all. Rather, prayers are a positive but selfish little action that can provide comfort, so as to bear all the awful that we experience. This is what we have found. Particularly the psalms, as recommended by more experienced shipmates. Very helpful.
So I think snswered prayers are mostly wishful thinking and happy coincidence. Unanswered prayers are absence of coincidence, nothing more. I agree that "unanswered" and "answered" are problematic words in this context. The real problems are us trying to bend reality to our wills rather than forming ours' to reality. Prayers are about coping and comfort,
It is probably true that if I did experience an answer to prayer, I would have to be very angry with God because of the choice to grant that when he refused to grant the simple avoidance of a random act of violence from a stranger to a child. Should be calling him Mr Damn at that point, using God's last name.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
I have fought ten rounds with church leaders who have prayed, prophesised and promised healing to a friend dying of cancer. More over the fact they took no responsibility when death did come for their actions and the emotional and spiritual fallout that results than for trying for healing and failing.
And there's one of many reasons I no longer answer to the label "Christian," and why I find it impossible to summon up belief in some sort of benevolent supernatural deity.
[Tongue in Cheek] Just to clarify: Are you unable to summon up belief in some sort of benevolent super natural being because of the outrageous behaviour of irate members of your flock or the nonsense spouted by those who teach silly things about prayer? [/ Tongue in Cheek]
More seriously; I have learned through this thread that, whatever else prayer may be, it is not a litmus test for the existence of a deity- or at least not the Christian God.
I have tried to reflect on my experiences and learn how to deal with God, leaders and terminally ill loved ones better. I’m praying for a loved one who is dying from cancer and a number of close friends who are afflicted by the disease. I’m not asking for healing indeed I have a sense that this is not on offer. I am asking for the strength to get through the walk with them, for their spouse, that suffering might be reduced, to be able to show compassion and love. If that is Aunt Sally prayers then so be it. I suppose it to be a case of expecting nothing but anticipating everything.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I don't believe in answers any more. If I were to hold to the idea that prayers were answered, then God would necessarily be a monster because of our experience that he specifically ignored a daily prayer for protection and allowed a random and horrific action of violence to befall us. It would be as if in our asking, God decided to arrange the violence just because we asked, to test us, or otherwise squish us like so many ants. Just for fun. So we have given up on such expectation.
But I'm not saying prayers are useless. I don't think prayers are granted at a significant enough frequency to consider it relevant, if they are at all. Rather, prayers are a positive but selfish little action that can provide comfort, so as to bear all the awful that we experience. This is what we have found. Particularly the psalms, as recommended by more experienced shipmates. Very helpful.
So I think snswered prayers are mostly wishful thinking and happy coincidence. Unanswered prayers are absence of coincidence, nothing more. I agree that "unanswered" and "answered" are problematic words in this context. The real problems are us trying to bend reality to our wills rather than forming ours' to reality. Prayers are about coping and comfort,
It is probably true that if I did experience an answer to prayer, I would have to be very angry with God because of the choice to grant that when he refused to grant the simple avoidance of a random act of violence from a stranger to a child. Should be calling him Mr Damn at that point, using God's last name.
It looks like you arrived at the same place as CS Lewis (link above) but from a different direction.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
If that is Aunt Sally prayers then so be it. I suppose it to be a case of expecting nothing but anticipating everything.
Well, taking a quiet moment to acknowledge to oneself that we need strength or help or guidance, and that we need to tread with care and compassion does not qualify as a "save Aunt Sally" prayer to me. It's the request for (sometimes even demand for or outright expectation of) miracles that gets up my nose. Especially when I so seldom heard expressions of gratitude, or praise, or even "healp me bear this" prayers.
I'm no longer a member of any congregation, so there is no "flock" to which I belong. I will say I've lost whatever respect I ever had for clergy who use word games, slogans, and cant phrases as anodynes.
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
So, we might be talking about the difference between prayers and incantation.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Every prayer gets answered
Even though
Sometimes the answer is… no.
Brad Paisley
This gives us a terrible god - one I would never worship.
"Sometimes you confuse me with Santa Claus
It's the big white beard, I suppose"
--Elvis Costello
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I'm no longer a member of any congregation, so there is no "flock" to which I belong. I will say I've lost whatever respect I ever had for clergy who use word games, slogans, and cant phrases as anodynes.
Good for you. I would too- but am still trying to engage with church.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
His will is in more righteousness, more justice, more freedom, more love, more understanding, more wisdom, more humility, more encouragement, more patience, more hope, more fidelity, more trustworthiness, more courage, more trust, more grace, more forgiveness, more gratitude, more generosity. As we die of cancer. As the economy and the politics get nastier. In our aging.
NOTHING else. What on Earth, in Heaven's name do we need more of apart from Him in us?
[ 08. February 2013, 23:18: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Flossymole
Apprentice
# 17339
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Posted
posted by Boogie
Stuff happens, God doesn't control it, not any of it.
Sometimes he seems to. See last Sunday's 'Songs of Praise' BBC1 - about halfway through - the figure that got into the crashed car, seen by (and obeyed by) ambulance crew as well as injured man.
Posts: 43 | From: Derbyshire UK | Registered: Sep 2012
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Flossymole:
posted by Boogie
Stuff happens, God doesn't control it, not any of it.
Sometimes he seems to. See last Sunday's 'Songs of Praise' BBC1 - about halfway through - the figure that got into the crashed car, seen by (and obeyed by) ambulance crew as well as injured man.
What?
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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