homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Hymnals and Song Books (Page 1)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Hymnals and Song Books
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Having just done a search and failed to find our previous discussion on hymnals, I would like to start a new one.

In my churches when I arrived I found several hundred copies of 'Hymns Ancient and Modern' (a small words-only version dating from about 1950) and about a hundred and fifty copies of the Combined Words Edition of Volumes 1, 2, and 3 of 'Songs of Fellowship,' which last was purchased by my immediate predecessor. One parish has an organist and choir and occasionally a pianist, bass guitarist and drummer. One has an organ, electric piano, guitar and wind instruments. One has an organ. None use projectors. I have just splashed out on the New English Hymnal and put all the Ancient and Moderns in the vestry bookcase. Nearly everyone is extremely happy and, judging by Sunday's services, the congregational singing has improved. HOWEVER: that still leaves the problem of what to do with the 'Songs of Fellowship,' and how to keep the more Evangelical members of the flock on board. What hymnals do other people use, in and out of the CofE?

[ 21. November 2011, 10:15: Message edited by: Amos ]

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228

 - Posted      Profile for Laxton's Superba   Email Laxton's Superba   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You could always advertise the books you don't want on your diocese's website, or your own - you never know who might need a few books. Or sometimes Bible colleges and the like will take them.
Our place uses the orange Kevin Mayhew book but some of the alterations are a bit too PC for my liking, and pointless, as the congregation will sing the words they are expecting in any case.

The place I've been at on placement use OHPs for everything but I think they must come from "Jesus is my Boyfriend" vol. XXII

Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
seasick

...over the edge
# 48

 - Posted      Profile for seasick   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Methodism produces an authorised hymnal so most places tend to use it. We've been using Hymns and Psalms since 1983 and this year a new one - Singing the Faith - has just come out. I'm pleasantly surprised by it, in particular in bringing us some of the more modern Catholic material and some material for singing in the liturgy.

Quite a number of Methodist churches use Songs of Fellowship as a supplement and I'm familiar with the combined volumes 1,2,3 book to which Amos refers. There is some good stuff in it, but I find you have to spend a lot of time wading through, erm, less good material to find it. I think I would find it extremely limiting to use as the only book.

--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

 - Posted      Profile for Tubbs   Author's homepage   Email Tubbs   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My small Baptist church in a large village uses "Songs of Followship". I think it's the most recent edition available and bought quite recently as the books are in very good nick. (I think there are some copies of the Bapist hymnal floating about as well).

Rev T programmes a mixture of traditional hymns and choruses in an attempt to ensure that everyone gets something they like. However, we only have two people who can play the piano. One can play pretty much anything whilst the other is happier with the more traditional material and that does have an impact on what we sing. [Biased]

Songs of Fellowship has a mixture of traditional hymns and choruses, it isn't all evangelical arm wavers or Jesus is my boyfriend icky-ness. As it was bought quite recently, you could always use both sets of books in tandem so they both last longer. But, if you really can't face it, I'm sure that there are plenty of churches that would be grateful for some new second hand copies.

Tubbs

[ 21. November 2011, 11:07: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, the difficulty was in using 'Songs of Fellowship' as the principal hymn book. Both it and the ancient Ancient and Modern have very small print, which was difficult for a number of people, and I also found I very quickly found and used the hymns and songs in 'Songs of Fellowship' which people in the congregations actually knew and could sing.

At the moment I'm expecting to keep it in two parishes as a supplement. The third wants to get rid of it and then throw a party. Bear in mind, these are CofE parishes which, up until 2007, had a fairly High tradition.

[ 21. November 2011, 11:08: Message edited by: Amos ]

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

 - Posted      Profile for dyfrig   Email dyfrig   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
According to a cogent and finely argued article on this site (see the second column, article called "Songs of Fellowship" which links to a pdf), S&HoF contains much that is suitable for Catholics because of its many references to "celebrate" (which is what Catholics do with a Mass) and "Jubilate, everybody" is High Church.

I love the internet. It has so improved the quality of public discourse.

--------------------
"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Couldn't find it, Dryfig. Was distracted by 'Shocking Schoolteachers' on the same site. I know you could be really helpful if you wanted. [Razz] I shall sing a chorus of 'Oi, Oi, Oi,/We just wanna praise you, Lord!' and hope that you will post again.

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This might grate the teeth and stick in the craw, but it might be time to think of getting projectors and screens. Particularly if your two bands are any good, it will give them the freedom to introduce material that isn't in your current books. Who knows. Perhaps they might write some new stuff themselves.

Besides, whatever others may say, if ones musicians aren't riddled with prejudices either way and determined not to co-operate, traditional and modern material mix well. Our experience is that the widely held prevailing wisdom that all the music in a service should be either traditional A&M NEH style or SoF MP is wrong - provided one doesn't let heavy metal or drummers in perspex boxes anywhere near the front.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

 - Posted      Profile for dyfrig   Email dyfrig   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There are many interesting and insightful articles on that site, Sibling Amos - I was particularly intrigued by the analysis of the clearly evil Mr Bruce Forsyth.

Anyway, perhaps I should try to be more helpful.

The basic problem is that hymnbooks are either very tradition-specific or, where attempts have been made at a wider selection, usually terrible (cf. "Hymns Old & New" in its various guises).

Enoch is right that it doesn't all have to be from one source, but handing someone both NEH (a fat little book) and S&HFA (a large book*), as well as the notice sheet and the liturgy is going to get silly.

The ability to use many hymns under a CLA licence makes life easier, but only works if you have a screen and a sympathetic way of incorporating that into your church (the best use of putting stuff on screen I came across was at an Orthodox liturgy at Greenbelt.)

Of course, not everything is covered by CLA (they don't control "Tell Out My Soul", for example; you have to ring +Timothy D-S up and ask for permission directly. And there's more Catholic stuff that they don't handle.)

* The large print version of S&HoF is one of the few that has a decent font. However, being over 1,000 hymns long, it comes in three volumes, all of which are the size of a Welsh market town.

--------------------
"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:

The ability to use many hymns under a CLA licence makes life easier, but only works if you have a screen and a sympathetic way of incorporating that into your church (the best use of putting stuff on screen I came across was at an Orthodox liturgy at Greenbelt.)

Why use a screen when you can print the words out on your service leaflet/ bulletin?

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coffee Cup
Shipmate
# 13506

 - Posted      Profile for Coffee Cup   Email Coffee Cup   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
\Continuing the tangent....

quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
There are many interesting and insightful articles on that site, Sibling Amos - I was particularly intrigued by the analysis of the clearly evil Mr Bruce Forsyth.

That site is a thing to behold. I notice that one is forbidden from downloading the articles on it in the rider at the bottom of the .pdf - not sure how that restriction works given you have to have downloaded the pdf to read it...

But what I really want to know is this: is the dancing pants song which he quotes real? Or is the entire site a parody and I'm just a bit slow today?

Posts: 66 | From: UK | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

 - Posted      Profile for dyfrig   Email dyfrig   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Why use a screen when you can print the words out on your service leaflet/ bulletin?

Oddly, that had never crossed my mind. Duh. Indeed - if the collect and readings for a Sunday get printed out, why not the hymns?

[ 21. November 2011, 12:46: Message edited by: dyfrig ]

--------------------
"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't see why one couldn't print song lyrics on the Weekly Sheet if one had copyright permission! I'd rather not go down the road of creating a fresh Order of Service booklet for each parish every Sunday, though.

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
According to a cogent and finely argued article on this site (see the second column, article called "Songs of Fellowship" which links to a pdf), S&HoF contains much that is suitable for Catholics because of its many references to "celebrate" (which is what Catholics do with a Mass) and "Jubilate, everybody" is High Church.

I love the internet. It has so improved the quality of public discourse.

[Overused] [Killing me]
So true, Dyfrig! Who is that pillock? He claims to have a PhD or is it a DD and he can't even write English.

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Dr Wright's article has certainly given me plenty of material to bring before my PCC this evening, if I dare. He writes a bit like E.J. Thribb.

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Dr Thribb if you please.

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

 - Posted      Profile for dyfrig   Email dyfrig   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I know of places that put the readings, psalm and collects on an A4 sheet; you could do that and put the hymns on the back. Thus all a person needs is the liturgy booklet and the sheeet for the day.

--------------------
"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sure, but (i) someone's got to do it (and it takes time); and (b) you have to watch copyright issues - as you do when projecting, of course.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Couldn't someone get Dr Wright to enlist? Somebody as opinionated as he is ought to fit in well and be a happy addition to our crew - or perhaps he already is.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
He reminded me of our late-lamented Coiled Spring.

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Anglo Catholic
Shipmate
# 15181

 - Posted      Profile for Arch Anglo Catholic         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We use the truly nasty Hymns Old and New Green version. It is, in my humble opinion, truly bad.

Whenever there is a choice between a truly excellent and a banal harmonisation, guess which one they go for...

The removal of gender specific words renders some verses unbearably clunky and offends some of the congregation (particularly women I should add) because it suggests that they are unable to distinguish between man, woman and mankind.

New English Hymanl is good and for other informal use we have a small, privately printed and copyright authorised hymnal with words and music for new worship songs, carefully checked to make sure they are theologically appropriate and decent musically!

Posts: 144 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We are another Songs of Fluffiness shop. It does have nearly all the older hymns you might want, and at least it doesn't eviscerate the words the way Kevin Mayhew does.


quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Why use a screen when you can print the words out on your service leaflet/ bulletin?

Cos we'd have to go over the one folder sheet of A4 that we use at the moment. As it is we can barely get the liturgy on there. If the vicar wasn't addicted to Eucharistic Prayer H we'd have to leave the Confession and the Creed out.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867

 - Posted      Profile for Edgeman   Email Edgeman   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We currently (RC) use the third edition of the Worship Hymnal, but with the news mass translations, we have to get another. The new edition of the Worship hymnal is out of the question though. Formerly, it was a good 80% classic, traditional hymns, or new texts set to older tunes.

They've decided that the new edition is to be mostly contemporary, with a lot of mucking around with texts and harmonisations. A good 2/3 of the texts and tunes are new compositions. We're moving to the St.Michael Hymnal , though ubfortunately it won't arrive till after Advent, so I don't know what we'll do till then.

--------------------
http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/

Posts: 1420 | From: Philadelphia Penns. | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Having spent the last two years worshipping with a congregation who uses Songs of Fellowship one, two, three (combined) and four (on sheets). I would, bin 1,2,and 3 and buy 4.

Anything worth singing in 1,2 and 3 should be in your hymnal (most of the stuff the congregation I was with sang from 3 were traditional hymns that had not made it into the earlier ones, 1 and 2 are so old that modern hymn books had access to them when compiled).

Four I find really interesting, there does seem to be a maturity in four that I have not found in earlier SOF. There also are some modern settings of classic hymns. It makes a pretty good supplement, gives access to new charismatic worship songs (anything earlier is either in the hymnal or if desperate covered by copyright licenses) and is a bit more sophisticated than earlier books.

Plus it will confuse the hell out of your evangelical wing.

Jengie

[ 21. November 2011, 18:04: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Anything worth singing in 1,2 and 3 should be in your hymnal

SOF123 is our hymnal. Well, its the only hymbook we've used for years. Before that it was Mission Praise.

Book 1 is OK - its very much like an abbreviated MP. Book 3 has, as you say, a lot of old stuff they missed out the first time round, as well as most of the most popular of the songs from the Redman/Hughes/Townsend stable. Its 2 that is cringeworthy. It reads like it was the kids Sunday School songbook from the Brighton NFI circa 1985.

Come to think of it I know a bloke who was likely to have have compiled a CCK kid's songbook in the 1980s. And he went on to work for Kingsway... perhaps I should ask him...

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533

 - Posted      Profile for Pancho   Author's homepage   Email Pancho   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My parish uses United in Christ - Unidos en Cristo, a hymnal published by OCP. The hymnal is a paperback that gets republished every couple of years and the music (ordinaries and hymns) are about equally divided between those in Engish and those in Spanish with a good number of bilingual hymns (and a little bit of Latin somewhere). The front of the book with the Order of Mass and Ordinaries are in each language on facing pages. This is also true for the missalette that accompanies this hymnal (i.e. reading in English facing the same reading in Spanish)

As far as I know we will continue to use it. I think the next edition would've of come out this Advent anyway which is very convenient for the new English translation, though the vast majority of our services are in Spanish.

At another parish I often attend they use OCP's Today's Missal which comes out several times a year. Besides the Order of Mass and readings it also contains seasonally appropriate hymns. They use the edition with the Spanish supplement. They also use the "Music Issue", a yearly hymnal that accompanies Today's Missal and has a collection of ordinaries as well.

As far as I know they'll be continuing with this missal and hymnal as well. That's the advantage of these seasonal and yearly hymnals, changes are relatively easy to make. Interestingly though, they did not go with an OCP setting of the Mass for the new translation at the Mass I've been attending.

--------------------
“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This is all interesting and useful, thank you. I've just been told that the Worship Group feel that if they're not playing ALL the music at a service, and if ALL the music isn't from Songs of Fellowship, they don't think it's worth showing up.

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

 - Posted      Profile for Sober Preacher's Kid   Email Sober Preacher's Kid   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This is a Pond Difference.

In North America most denominations, including the Anglicans, produce their own hymnal which is approved for use by the denominational authority. Most churches stick to their denominational book.

Hymn books are an affirmation of denominational identity here, not a party-line affiliation like in the CoE.

Sometimes churches will co-operate on joint hymn books, for instance the Anglican Church of Canada and the United Church of Canada jointly produced The Hymn Book of 1970, aka "The Old Red Hymn Book". We went our separate ways in the 1990's, the Anglicans produced the Book of Common Praise and the United Church came out with Voices United.

On the plus side hymn books over here are as much worship resources as song books, Voices United has the Revised Common Lectionary in the back cross-referenced with hymn appropriate to the day and all kinds of service music designed to augment our Service Book, Celebrate God's Presence.

--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643

 - Posted      Profile for dj_ordinaire   Author's homepage   Email dj_ordinaire   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
This is a Pond Difference.

A sub-pond difference... The Church of Ireland operates on the same policy, although my current parish prints the words out on the weekly sheet. I'm not sure why, but I guess it because they occasionally have things from other sources including hymns in the Irish language or from some of the African countries from which our choristers hail.

--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...

Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
seasick

...over the edge
# 48

 - Posted      Profile for seasick   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
This is all interesting and useful, thank you. I've just been told that the Worship Group feel that if they're not playing ALL the music at a service, and if ALL the music isn't from Songs of Fellowship, they don't think it's worth showing up.

Sermon series on humility coming up?

--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755

 - Posted      Profile for Graven Image   Email Graven Image   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
May I suggest that your local jails and prisons might very much appreciate a donation of matching hymn books. In my chaplain days I tried to make do with a few of each by giving out page numbers like this. If you have the Baptist red book you will find the hymn on page 123, If you have a Methodist green book the hymn is on page 456, and if you are using the lighter green Salvation Army song book it is on page 789, and if you did not get a book please look on with your neighbor. We sang Amazing Grace often.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Carys

Ship's Celticist
# 78

 - Posted      Profile for Carys   Email Carys   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That sounds frustrating Amos. I suppose the best approach given that is to use SoF once a month (or whatever frequency works for the church) with the band and to stick to organ and NEH for the other weeks.

We use ;Hymns Old and New: One Church, One Faith, One Lord which was bought about 6 years ago to replace AMR.* Someone went through the index and decided it contained the bulk of the trad hymns we wanted and the organist only expressed his concerns as 'why do we have to change from AMR?' rather than pointing out the issues with the odd harmonisations and no-one noticed the changes to the words. As a result, the current choir (almost entirely new in the past 5 years) aren't keen on the book we have but we're stuck with it because of the sunk costs in it. We do sometimes revert to AMR especially for evensong, though less so under current choir director than previous.

Carys

*I believe Mission Praise was sometimes tried, but not appreciated by the (mainly student) choir.

[ETA for code and to make it clear I was responding to Amos' post having not refreshed the page before replying]

[ 21. November 2011, 23:11: Message edited by: Carys ]

--------------------
O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Circuit Rider

Ship's Itinerant
# 13088

 - Posted      Profile for Circuit Rider   Email Circuit Rider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Methodism produces an authorised hymnal so most places tend to use it. We've been using Hymns and Psalms since 1983 and this year a new one - Singing the Faith - has just come out. I'm pleasantly surprised by it, in particular in bringing us some of the more modern Catholic material and some material for singing in the liturgy.

I brought both of these back from England, as well as Hymns Ancient and Modern. I am looking forward to borrowing from these.

American Methodism uses The United Methodist Hymnal (1989), and my smaller church still uses the older Methodist Hymnal (1964) and the Cokesbury Hymnal, published since 1923 and still a favorite in many churches.

--------------------
I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.

Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
bib
Shipmate
# 13074

 - Posted      Profile for bib     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
For some years we used the Australian Hymn Book as well as the NEH, but the Anglican church in Australia, for some brainless reason, decided to give us Together in Song. It is an appalling production full of very badly done political correctness and several very laughable hymns. My church has gone back to AHB and NEH, but most of other other Anglican churches use TIS. I feel like saying, if it isn't broken, don't try and fix it.

--------------------
"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"

Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

 - Posted      Profile for dyfrig   Email dyfrig   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
I've just been told that the Worship Group feel that if they're not playing ALL the music at a service, and if ALL the music isn't from Songs of Fellowship, they don't think it's worth showing up.

Was it John Milton who said, "New music group is just old choir writ large"?

--------------------
"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
This is all interesting and useful, thank you. I've just been told that the Worship Group feel that if they're not playing ALL the music at a service, and if ALL the music isn't from Songs of Fellowship, they don't think it's worth showing up.

OK this is what you do. You get your church to buy half a dozen copies of a little book by John Bell called The Singing Thing. And even more importantly you buy half a dozen of its sequel, The Singing Thing Too. Unfortunately they are rather expensive for such small books, but sometimes you have to buy the bullet.

Give the minister/vicar/priest/whoever a copy of the first book, and also give one to those in the church who are pissed off by the attiutude of the music group. Meanwhile give the main members of the music group copies of the second book and ask them to read that.

Assuming they read it and understand it, job done. All you need to do now is get music group and their opponents to go to a music planning meeting and sit down together... also stand up and sing together.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
John Bell is wonderful! Gareth Malone in Billy Connolly's body.

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We use 'Common Praise' which seems to combine the best of the English Hymnal and Hymns Ancient and Modern with a few hymns from the nonconformist tradition and the most widely known of the Graham Kendrick era. Which is quite far enough along the worship song route for most of us (in our fairly traditional country town church) to handle.

There has been talk of developing an in-house supplement, containing the best known of the more modern worship songs, plus songs the children would know from school - so the supplement can be tailored to be of use in family / children / occasional churchgoer orientated services. But, what with having extra churches recently join our team and other staffing difficulties, this has been put on the back burner for a few months.

The reason an in-house supplement was suggested was that none of the published hymnals or song books appeared to meet our needs exactly. But of the ones I've looked at, this seemed to be the best new one on the market, especially as it was initially conceived to be a supplement to 'Common Praise' which we already have.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

 - Posted      Profile for Sober Preacher's Kid   Email Sober Preacher's Kid   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Circuit Rider:
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Methodism produces an authorised hymnal so most places tend to use it. We've been using Hymns and Psalms since 1983 and this year a new one - Singing the Faith - has just come out. I'm pleasantly surprised by it, in particular in bringing us some of the more modern Catholic material and some material for singing in the liturgy.

I brought both of these back from England, as well as Hymns Ancient and Modern. I am looking forward to borrowing from these.

American Methodism uses The United Methodist Hymnal (1989), and my smaller church still uses the older Methodist Hymnal (1964) and the Cokesbury Hymnal, published since 1923 and still a favorite in many churches.

When I was growing up the current hymn book was the Hymn Book of 1970 but smaller and rural churches often doggedly hung on to The Old Blue Book, The Hymnary of 1930.

The Hymnary had several 1800's revival and praise songs which the Congregations still loved but had gone out of fashion in more elite quarters and the editors of The Hymn Book left them out. The Hymn Book also had a miserable excuse for a psalter. The Old Blue Book had been in use since 1930 and was dearly loved. A bit old and worn by the end, but dearly loved.

Voices United brought back some of those old favourites and added in Amazing Grace which had been left of The Hymn Book. It also has a large and excellent psalter which was the top request. It even runs into canticles, I have put some of the canticles based from Isaiah in the hymn line up for Advent. Genevan 42nd here we come!

There are five settings for Sung Communion in the 900's section. By sung I mean the Sanctus, Memorial Acclamation and Great Amen, etc. and I typed up an appropriately matched Great Thanksgiving from the service book, Celebrate God's Presence.

The minister likes it and I think we may do the Sung service next Sunday. Of course since the Communion music is in the pew hymn books we'll likely have the whole congregation sing the communion music.

--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
Qoheleth.

Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265

 - Posted      Profile for Qoheleth.   Email Qoheleth.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
of the ones I've looked at, this seemed to be the best new one on the market

.. [for clarity: "this" = Sing Praise]

This is what we've just bought as a supplement to NEH, as being better than New English Praise and also more likely to be approved by TPTB. Check out the contents list and it might well meet your needs. Various hefty grants currently available, too.

--------------------
The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.

Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453

 - Posted      Profile for Metapelagius   Email Metapelagius   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
John Bell is wonderful! Gareth Malone in Billy Connolly's body.

quote:
As a regular Radio 4 listener, I find there is no more discouraging phrase currently in use than 'John Bell of the Iona Community'.
Charles Moore, Spectator's Notes, The Spectator, October 15th.

You pays your money and takes your choice, I suppose. Moore swam the Tiber in 1994, a fact which might colour his feelings. The Church Hymnary 4th ed. does contain a few pieces not written or re-harmonised by John Bell (our organist really doesn't get on with the latter). After using it for a while one cannot help getting the feeling that there can be too much of a good thing. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.

Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alex Cockell

Ship’s penguin
# 7487

 - Posted      Profile for Alex Cockell     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Sure, but (i) someone's got to do it (and it takes time); and (b) you have to watch copyright issues - as you do when projecting, of course.

Agreed. On the copyright issue - blanket licences under CCLI and Calamus come into their own.. I gather that life is made harder in the States due to the multiple collections agencies - whereas the PRS work closely with churches to make things easy..

Over use of data projectors etc - it does mean that as well as less paper being issued, you can also rapidly change song lists, orders etc... sometimes the Holy Spirit may want to take the service along another tack.

THIS is where you need close liaison between service leader, musos and techies... and where if your techies have a good ear and a solid knowledge of the music used, they can somewhat predict what is likely to be played, and therefore have the lyrics ready to play out...

It's quite an art, doing video presentation for charismatic worship...

Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
This is all interesting and useful, thank you. I've just been told that the Worship Group feel that if they're not playing ALL the music at a service, and if ALL the music isn't from Songs of Fellowship, they don't think it's worth showing up.

Brilliant- so THAT's how you get rid of them!
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044

 - Posted      Profile for A.Pilgrim   Email A.Pilgrim   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A problem with using a data projector to provide the words of hymns, songs or liturgy is that it creates a single point of failure. There's nothing so effective in bringing a service of worship to a grinding halt as the breakdown of your projector.

Also the person operating it has to be absolutely on-the-ball with split-second timing and meticulous accuracy. They are the most critical person in the building for the smooth running of the service. If you've ever been to a service where the operator puts the next verse of the song up half-way through the first line, or gets the verse mixed up with the chorus so the worship group and the congregation sing different words, or any other variety of cock-up, you'll know just how effective this is at destroying an atmosphere of coherent worship. (Been there, experienced that. [Frown] )

Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged
Right-Believing Queen
Shipmate
# 16832

 - Posted      Profile for Right-Believing Queen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The New English Hymnal isn't bad and is certainly far better than most of the travesties out there — my college chapel features, for reasons passing understanding, horrible copies of 'Hymns Old and New' bound in some substance unknown to Nature and Nature's God, presumably on the grounds that the binding should be of similar quality to the contents— but I'm not sure it was necessary. The number of good hymns written in the years between 1906 and 1986 is negligible. What's more concerning is that the editors of the New English Hymnal made several dubious changes, many of them documented in this admirable blog. My particular pet peeve, other than the inexplicable decision not to follow the English Hymnal's practice of including original titles (except in the case of Latin hymns), is the fact that the editors seem to have had a problem with the word 'Paraclete' and gone to great lengths to avoid it. Other changes are also very dubious: why is the woodland in 'Hail, thee festival day' not gay with leaves but instead green with them, which seems somewhat self-evident.

My preference, then, would be for the English Hymnal, supplemented judiciously with selections from the English Catholic Hymn Book. I can, however, live with the New English Hymnal. One pretty much has to these days. I would grow very uneasy indeed, however, were I to enter a Church of England parish and discover a hymnal other than either the EH or the NEH in the pews. Fortunately, this such and event is usually avoidable.

--------------------
'You know, speaking disrespectfully of Calvinists is the same thing as speaking honourably of the Church.'— Letter from Lady Mary Wortley Montagu to Mrs Sarah Chiswell, Aug. 13 (O.S.), 1716.

Posts: 61 | From: Between the idea/ And the reality/ Between the motion/ And the act | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Right-Believing Queen:
The number of good hymns written in the years between 1906 and 1986 is negligible.

You've counted them?


And which ones from 1986 and since do you think are up to the standards of the great Victorians?

Agreed about Hymns Obfuscated and Negligble though. An unusable book. Misses out some of the must-have songs (though I expect my list is different from yours) and mercilessly bowdlerises those it does have. Like most of the Kevin Mayhew books its just so bland. Also I have an innate suspicion of a hymn book that comes out in Catholic, Anglican, and non-demominational editions. What is being hidden from the rest of us?

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
seasick

...over the edge
# 48

 - Posted      Profile for seasick   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I understand that the panel that decided what was going in Methodist hymns old and new had no Methodists on it! I think it's a good rule of thumb to avoid hymn books published by Kevin Mayhew.

--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yet the blasted Hymns O&N seems to get everywhere. Why? How? It's as much of a mystery as Radio 4's annual recommissioning of Quote Unquote. Everyone knows it's crap: no-one likes it; but it still survives. Only explanation I can think of is that Kevin Mayhew have hacked into the secret archives at Lambeth Palace, the RSCM, Methodist Church House, etc, and have something 'on' large numbers of clergy and choirmasters, which they will keep quiet in return for bulk purchases of their horrible books.

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Saviour Tortoise
Shipmate
# 4660

 - Posted      Profile for Saviour Tortoise   Author's homepage   Email Saviour Tortoise   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
When it comes to hymn books we still use a combination of A&M Revised, One Hundred Hymns for Today and (oddly) Songs of God's People.

However... we have a CCL licence and just print other hymns as and when we want them. Sometimes in the notice sheet, sometimes on a seperate sheet if there's too many to fit on the notice sheet. I have a copy of the Hymnquest software at home which means I can find the texts to all mainstream hymnbooks (plus quite a few wierd and wonderful ones.)

I don't see us buying another hymn book when we can print hymns whenever we like. Perhaps copies for the choir maybe, but then, we have the CCL music reproduction licence as well.

With regard to mixing trad and modern music styles - I think it depends on context. At my Uni chapel (where I was organ scholar) I would happily finish conducting the choir in a piece of Tallis or Stanford or whatever, and then go and pick up my Sax to play in the music group (which was stacked with highly talented musicians.)

In my current church, which is in a city, the music is more monochrome (basically choral, trad, but with a bit of modern thrown in to keep things fresh.) I think that city churches tend to be more monochrome because people will travel go to a church with fits the niche which they prefer. In a village (or a university for that matter) where you're trying to cater for a broader community within one establishment, variety is easier to implement and, I think, more likely to be tolerated.

[ETA - I agree about Hymns O&N - the selection of hymns is okay, but the word changing annoys the sh1t out of me, and the musical arrangements are dire.]

[ 20. December 2011, 12:32: Message edited by: Saviour Tortoise ]

--------------------
Baptised not Lobotomised

Posts: 745 | From: Bath, UK | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673

 - Posted      Profile for Mark Wuntoo   Email Mark Wuntoo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sorry to see that so many advocate printing hymns / songs.
The best reason for using a projector and screen (given the warnings above) is the saving of forests.
Please!

--------------------
Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools