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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Random Liturgical Questions (answers on a postcard, please)
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Southwell was a bit of an oddity in the old days. Like Ripon it was a collegiate Church, but it had a Vicar-General rather than a Dean. The V-G also administered a peculiar belonging to the Archbishop of York in which the non-sacramental functions of the Bishop were delegated to the V-G.
IIRC, the peculiar appertaining to Ripon disappeared in 1540s and was not reinstated with the Dean and Chapter in 1604. However, the Peculiar of Masham remained in existence until the 19th century and is referenced in the name of one of Theakston's Brewery's products.
PD
[ 04. July 2012, 21:09: Message edited by: PD ]
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Whoops - I should have said a Peculiar within the Diocese of York in which all Episcopal functions except for Confirmation and Ordination belonged to the V-G not the Archbishop. There were quite a few of these peculiars before the 19th century.
The Masham Peculiar belonged to the Dean of York and was a relic of the old Masham Collegiate Church.
Ripon was Collegiate 1604-1836 and had quite a few chapelries within its boundaries.
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Southwell was a bit of an oddity in the old days. Like Ripon it was a collegiate Church, but it had a Vicar-General rather than a Dean. The V-G also administered a peculiar belonging to the Archbishop of York in which the non-sacramental functions of the Bishop were delegated to the V-G.
IIRC, the peculiar appertaining to Ripon disappeared in 1540s and was not reinstated with the Dean and Chapter in 1604. However, the Peculiar of Masham remained in existence until the 19th century and is referenced in the name of one of Theakston's Brewery's products.
PD
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Southwell Minster in its collegiate days also had its own choir and choir school which the cathedral inherited.
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Morlader
Shipmate
# 16040
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Southwell Minster in its collegiate days also had its own choir and choir school which the cathedral inherited.
Southwell Cathedral is called Southwell Minster - at least it was when I sang there in a visiting choir a couple of summers ago. No 'inheritance' necessary. ISTM that minsters can be cathedrals or not: York and Beverley, examples of each.
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by jlav12:
Why does the 1979 Prayer Book place the Benedictus before the Te Deum in Morning Prayer?
Because it is the gospel canticle - linking OT to NT - like the mag. at evensong.,
1662 was a bad mistake (in more ways than one!)
As far as I recall the same reversal was done in the UK in the slightly earlier Series 2 version: a justification put forward then was that in the choral tradition the Te Deum to a 'setting' was such a 'climax' to the whole service that it belonged later in the service than after the first reading. Of course the same argument would put the Magnificat later than after the first reading at Evensong, but catholick conservatism would have resisted a change much more strongly in that instance.
If 1662 was a 'mistake', it was only repeating what Cranmer had set out in 1549. Cranmer was conflating the mediaeval offices, and kept the material in the chronological order of the traditional liturgical day: Te Deum from Matins, Benedictus from Lauds, Creed and one of the set Collects from Prime.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I believe it was customary to reverse the Te Deum and the Benedictus at St Paul's Cathedral even before the Alternative Services came on stream. I dimly remember the Series 2 Office. Not bad, as I recall, mainly due to the fact that it changed things without chucking the baby out with the bath water. Quite frankly, if they had not gone beyond Series Two (except to put it into Modern Language) I would have been happy with the process of Liturgical Reform.
Since Series 3, I have gradually lost interest in their monkeying about. I seem to think that the introduction of the ASB in my then home parish - about 1987 as I remember it - started my drift back to the BCP. Working in a parish that had basically dumped the pilot liturgically speaking completed it.
Funnily enough, I also liked both the old 1926 Irish BCP and their Alternative Prayer Book, but they managed to bugger them both up in formulating their new "BCP."
PD
[ 05. July 2012, 16:55: Message edited by: PD ]
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlav12:
Why does the 1979 Prayer Book place the Benedictus before the Te Deum in Morning Prayer?
I think we're free to do them in reverse (21 and then 16), but I believe our parish custom of using 16 and then 21 (Benedictus and then Te Deum) on Sundays and holy days is simply to avoid paging backward.
On all other days, we use the suggested first canticle and then always 16 (Benedictus) as the second canticle. Which means we miss out 18, 19, and 20 completely, although 20 is used at Mass.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Ordained ministers of God's Word. For an Anglican that means Deacons presbyters and bishops. I have several sets.
In the UK, and perhaps elsewhere in the Commonwealth, they are worn by barristers. They are also worn at graduation at Cambridge, and perhaps at the establishment by the Isis, but I am not sure.
PD
[ 17. July 2012, 05:52: Message edited by: PD ]
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
And I think holders, even lay holders, of sundry offices in the older British universities and public schools- the Provost of Eton, that sort of thing. No doubt these would all originally have been held by clergy.
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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And I think holders, even lay holders, of sundry offices in the older British universities and public schools- the Provost of Eton, that sort of thing. No doubt these would all originally have been held by clergy.
Add to that list all graduates of the University of Cambridge. The restriction to ordained ministers is wholly fictitious, as far as I can tell.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Southwell Minster in its collegiate days also had its own choir and choir school which the cathedral inherited.
Southwell Cathedral is called Southwell Minster - at least it was when I sang there in a visiting choir a couple of summers ago. No 'inheritance' necessary. ISTM that minsters can be cathedrals or not: York and Beverley, examples of each.
The word "minster!" seems to have been repurposed in the last twenty years or so by a coalition of uppity Rectors and unimaginative Tourist Boards. For the last five hundred years it has meant a church that is or once was attached to a monastery, or had a college of priests. Now they seem to be trying to make it mean any big old parish church that fancies itself the chief place of worship in a town.
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
If 1662 was a 'mistake', it was only repeating what Cranmer had set out in 1549.
Maybe i should have said that Cranmer was a mistake.
Why say one nonsense thing when you could say two?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And I think holders, even lay holders, of sundry offices in the older British universities and public schools- the Provost of Eton, that sort of thing. No doubt these would all originally have been held by clergy.
Add to that list all graduates of the University of Cambridge. The restriction to ordained ministers is wholly fictitious, as far as I can tell.
I've found the restriction of bands to the ordained asserted in various places but I've never been able to find any back-up for that assertion. As a probationer, I didn't wear bands (lest I cause any weaker brethren to stumble ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ) and now I do but it seems to me to be a custom without foundation. As a graduate of the aforementioned University, I wore bands before I was anywhere near being ordained.
[ 17. July 2012, 16:57: Message edited by: seasick ]
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
church that is or once was attached to a monastery, or had a college of priests. Now they seem to be trying to make it mean any big old parish church that fancies itself the chief place of worship in a town.
Wherever could you be thinking of?
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
A new question.
I've a recollection that about 60 years ago, the intercessions were sometimes taken from a prie-dieu placed half way down the aisle, at which the priest knelt, facing eastwards. I'd only have been quite small at the time. Questions:-
1. Has anyone else ever encountered this or am I imagining it?
2. Why, what decided when it should be done that way? Was it seasonal? Or for special occasions?
3. When and why did it die out?
4. Where did the custome come from and how far back did it go?
5. Is someone going to say, 'O, we do that; it's normal; I didn't know everyone else didn't or didn't any more'?
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I've never experienced it, but I'm sure I remember litany desks in the position you describe.
My first church (Establishment Matins, with once a month Family BCP Communion) always advertised something midweek called "Intercessions". This was never explained, but I suspect it was in place of the Litany as per the BCP.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
At All Saints', Margaret Street, the intercessions are led (by the Subdeacon — who fulfills few other liturgical roles in that place) from the middle of the nave, but given that it's a modish sort of place, they're done standing.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
A new question.
I've a recollection that about 60 years ago, the intercessions were sometimes taken from a prie-dieu placed half way down the aisle, at which the priest knelt, facing eastwards. I'd only have been quite small at the time. Questions:-
1. Has anyone else ever encountered this or am I imagining it?
I've never seen it - but of course the Litany desk was used for The Litany when I was a boy. I can't think of a reason why it would not be appropriate, however.
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
church that is or once was attached to a monastery, or had a college of priests. Now they seem to be trying to make it mean any big old parish church that fancies itself the chief place of worship in a town.
Wherever could you be thinking of?
If it's the same place that I think all three of us may be thinking of, it was originally a Minster in the form that ken describes. That was their trump card when applying to be re-defined as a Minster.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
A new question.
I've a recollection that about 60 years ago, the intercessions were sometimes taken from a prie-dieu placed half way down the aisle, at which the priest knelt, facing eastwards. I'd only have been quite small at the time. Questions:-
1. Has anyone else ever encountered this or am I imagining it?
2. Why, what decided when it should be done that way? Was it seasonal? Or for special occasions?
3. When and why did it die out?
4. Where did the custome come from and how far back did it go?
5. Is someone going to say, 'O, we do that; it's normal; I didn't know everyone else didn't or didn't any more'?
The Litany desk was used for the intercessions in my home parish until the mid-1990s when it was discovered that the combination of intercessor two-thirds of the way down the nave, radio mic, and the placement of the speak resulted in a ear-splitting feed from the new sound system. Thereafter the intercessions were led from the lectern. Another victory for technology!
PD
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Our Lady of Hardwork has such a litany desk, as can be seen in the old photographs, formerly positioned in the nave's central aisle (is that properly called an aisle?) a few feet away from the steps into the choir. I think at least one of the photographs shows the church greened for Christmas. It currently serves as the prayer desk at the Hardwork shrine.
For the last 30 years or so, the prayers of the people have been led by a disembodied voice coming somewhere from among the congregation in the nave.
We currently pray the Great Litany in procession during the odd numbered Sundays of Advent and Lent.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
The prayer desk in the center aisle was actually a standard piece of furniture in Episcopal churches in the United States, and can be seen in all the old photographs. They get in the way of processions today, but they were usually quite handsome pieces of work, given their prominent location.
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Quam Dilecta
Shipmate
# 12541
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Posted
Before Cramner, litanies were customarily sung in procession. Crmner disliked these processions, and directed that the Litany be said "kneeling in the church". Georgian churches often had "kneeling pews" from which the Litany could be read.
The Gothic Revival swept these pews away, along with three-decker pulpits, and reinstated choir and clergy stalls in the chancel. The rubric, however, remained in force, and the litany desk -- a prie-dieu placed in the center aisle -- allowed the clergy to obey it, albeit at the cost of obstructing traffic.
Eventually, Anglo-Catholics revived the Litany sung in procession, rendering the litany desk redundant. In my parish, the desk survives, but it serves as a prie-dieu at a shrine of Our Lady.
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Blessd are they that dwell in thy house
Posts: 406 | From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Apr 2007
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
If it's the same place that I think all three of us may be thinking of, it was originally a Minster in the form that ken describes. That was their trump card when applying to be re-defined as a Minster.
I suppose it makes as much sense (which is to say, very little) as places like St Peter's Westminster claiming the title of Abbey when the monks departed long ago.
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
Indeed, along with Bath, Tewkesbury etc, not to mention the churches that call themselves priories.
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
A new question.
I've a recollection that about 60 years ago, the intercessions were sometimes taken from a prie-dieu placed half way down the aisle, at which the priest knelt, facing eastwards. I'd only have been quite small at the time. Questions:-
1. Has anyone else ever encountered this or am I imagining it?
2. Why, what decided when it should be done that way? Was it seasonal? Or for special occasions?
3. When and why did it die out?
4. Where did the custome come from and how far back did it go?
5. Is someone going to say, 'O, we do that; it's normal; I didn't know everyone else didn't or didn't any more'?
I saw this this Sunday at Perth Cathedral, though the prie-dieu was at the front of the congregation.
At Christ Church, Bath, the intercessions were (are?) led from a microphone at the west of the congregation.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
The prayer desk in the center aisle was actually a standard piece of furniture in Episcopal churches in the United States, and can be seen in all the old photographs.
Really? I've never seen them in churches or photographs of churches in this part of the country. I wonder if it's a regional thing.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
The prayer desk in the center aisle was actually a standard piece of furniture in Episcopal churches in the United States, and can be seen in all the old photographs. They get in the way of processions today, but they were usually quite handsome pieces of work, given their prominent location.
I would think they'd be in the way of traffic during Communion as well. But then again they pre-date the change to "Communion every Sunday," right? Were they just used during MP/EP? [Sorry, just wondering aloud.]
We have a couple of handsome pries-dieu* stuck in a side chapel. Our interim had one of them placed in the sanctuary during Holy Week, as she was recuperating from knee surgery, and it was a great help to her getting up and down as well as a more comfortable spot to pray.
*assuming that is the correct form of the plural
[ 18. July 2012, 14:25: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
[QUOTE] pries-dieu*
*assuming that is the correct form of the plural
Yes. Prie-dieux would be heresy!
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Lone voice: I'm not!
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
The prayer desk in the center aisle was actually a standard piece of furniture in Episcopal churches in the United States, and can be seen in all the old photographs. They get in the way of processions today, but they were usually quite handsome pieces of work, given their prominent location.
I would think they'd be in the way of traffic during Communion as well. But then again they pre-date the change to "Communion every Sunday," right? Were they just used during MP/EP? [Sorry, just wondering aloud.]
We have a couple of handsome pries-dieu* stuck in a side chapel. Our interim had one of them placed in the sanctuary during Holy Week, as she was recuperating from knee surgery, and it was a great help to her getting up and down as well as a more comfortable spot to pray.
*assuming that is the correct form of the plural
Correct.The litany desk was typically used during Morning and Evening Prayer, while the celebration of Holy Communion was not frequent. When it was done, usually at an early Sunday hour, there would not be many communicants, because most parioshoners went to MP later, anyway.
It reminds one that before the Parish Communion Movement of the interwar period and other fruits of the Oxford Movement took hold, liturgical and sacramental life in Anglican parishes was generally quite different than it is today.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
The pictures are in part what I recall. But the intercessions I'm talking about were not taken from just in front of the rail, but in the middle of the aisle about half way down the nave, vaguely just in front of where the cross aisle crosses.
Compared with the photos, English churches tend to have a deeper chancel, which by the late C19 early C20 would be laid out with choir stalls facing each other and priest and curate occupying two more substantial pews at the bottom end of the choir stalls on each side and facing each other - still probably the most usual arrangement.
I don't see any great problem about a prie-dieu getting in the way of a procession. All those shown look fairly movable.
Going back to the Litany, I think - but this is long before my memory - that when there was a proper three decker pulpit, the parish clerk occupied the bottom level, the priest took the service from the middle level, and ascended to the top level to preach. The Litany was done by the priest saying or chanting the prayers and the responses by the clerk, on behalf of or leading the congregation.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
The emphasis is on old photographs. Examples everywhere...
[lots of cool pictures]
Thanks Zach. I wasn't challenging so much as wondering, as it seemed unfamiliar to me, and I know that in many ways, older Episcopal churches in my area historically are more low church, often looking more like this or even this.
Thanks again.
[ 18. July 2012, 15:20: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Thanks Zach. I wasn't challenging so much as wondering, as it seemed unfamiliar to me, and I know that in many ways, older Episcopal churches in my area historically are more low church, often looking more like this or even this.
Thanks again.
That first one has a litany desk. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
That first one has a litany desk.
Yes, but not in the center aisle, which is what I thought was being discussed, and not facing the altar.
Many Episcopal churches around here still have litany desks. They are invariably in the chancel (outside the altar rail), as shown here.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
[QUOTE] pries-dieu*
*assuming that is the correct form of the plural
Yes. Prie-dieux would be heresy!
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
We have a rather fine Litany Desk - it appears as such in old photos of the church - which we recently rescued from the cellar/boiler room, dusted off, and placed at the back of our Blessed Sacrament Chapel. It is now used by the officiant at Morning Prayer on Sundays (and, therefore, on Sundays in Lent, for the Litany!).
Ian J.
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Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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LostinChelsea
Shipmate
# 5305
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Posted
quote:
Nick Tamen noted:
older Episcopal churches in my area historically are more low church, often looking more like this
Wow, that looks like a scaled down model of the church where I preside! Ours is a Richard Upjohn board-and-batten number from the 1850s.
The original plans for our church did call for a stall and faldstool in the chancel, just about where the one sits in the photograph. Because of the size of the church, that prayer desk never could have fit in the aisle.
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
A new one if I may - now that cassock-albs seem to ubiquitous. What is it that makes it a CASSOCK-alb? Why not just wear an alb instead?
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
A new one if I may - now that cassock-albs seem to ubiquitous. What is it that makes it a CASSOCK-alb? Why not just wear an alb instead?
Cassock albs are made of horrible synthetic materials, look terrible and make Baby Jesus cry. Their supposed advantage is that they don't need to ironed, which is doubtless true, but the same could also be said for antique Belgian lace. Of course, one cannot wear the latter in Lent (save for Laetare Sunday, obviously) or at missae pro defunctis. However, for such occasions, surely a bit or ironing is a godly discipline.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Boat Boy
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# 13050
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Posted
I've heard those reasons - is it really just a wish not to iron?
Boat Boy (proud never to have worn a cassock alb)
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
I usually find that my (proper) alb does not need ironing every time it is washed provided I get it out of the washer and hung up quickly. However, it is made of heavy poly-cotton shirting material, not linen. It is also far cooler and lighter than a cassock-alb provided one is a little bit naughty and does not wear a cassock underneath.
I find that amices reduce the frequency with which it has to jog around in the washing machine, which is another plus. Also, when I do have to travel, it is a smaller bundle to have to put in the suitcase than a cassock-alb.
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
This should really be a dead horse, but I like cassock-albs. Admittedly there are some hideous designs out there, but a full, well-designed one (worn without girdle) looks, IMHO, better than a traditional girded alb unless the latter is properly worn together with apparelled amice. It's certainly a much more convenient garment [a] for young and maybe slightly scruffy servers, and [b] for priests who might have to rush from church to church with little time between services. It looks equally good worn with stole alone, or with chasuble. And much, much better than lace.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
This should really be a dead horse, but I like cassock-albs. Admittedly there are some hideous designs out there, but a full, well-designed one (worn without girdle) looks, IMHO, better than a traditional girded alb unless the latter is properly worn together with apparelled amice.
Really? You think that this looks better than this or this?
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
And much, much better than lace.
Again, really?
This mass-produced piece of polycrap you find more tasteful and exquisite than this lovingly hand crafted work of devotional art, as perhaps made by a pious spinster for a much loved nephew on the ocassion of his first Mass?
I'd say de gustibus non est disputandum, but your taste really is very questionable. Very questionable indeed.
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
young and maybe slightly scruffy servers,
Servers, no matter how young, should never be even slightly scruffy. I admit that I've become very lax about wearing a white shirt to serve and that this fault is culpable, but (like most servers and virtually all serious priests) I do at least make sure that my black shoes are always shined. Anything else would show a lack of respect. Don't get me started on servers in trainers ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) (although, I suppose, if it means the reintroduction of sanctuary slippers, so much the better).
[ 19. July 2012, 16:44: Message edited by: (S)pike couchant ]
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I think the first looks much better. To me, all that lace looks a bit silly -- rather like a big doily -- and to my mind violates what should be the cardinal rule of vestments because it draws attention to itself rather than drawing attention to the One worshipped. Give me the cassock-alb any day over all that fluff.
But then again, I'm a Presbyterian, so what do I know. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
This Catholic agrees with you entirely.
I've never heard anyone off ship talk about cassock-albs, actually. Do you just mean an alb that substantial enough to be worn without a cassock underneath? If so, since albs are required for saying Mass and cassocks are not, that's what 99% of Catholic priests wear and I have no intention of doing anything different.
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Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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