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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Random Liturgical Questions (answers on a postcard, please)
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
But then again, I'm a Presbyterian, so what do I know. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Well, yes, quite.
That's not meant to be insulting. In the context of a Presbyterian service, an alb with that much lace would be ridiculous. In the context of an Anglican or Roman Catholic high mass, wherein three sacred ministers wore albs like that under vestments of rich brocade embroidered with cloth of gold, assisted by a dozen or more servers all clad in lace cottas, with individual details increasingly obscured behind thick clouds of incense — then it would create a somewhat different impression: one of sheer awe at the beauty of holiness and the splendour of the Creator as manifested in his creatures. The sort of feeling that causes one to sing that we shall 'ponder nothing earthly minded'.
Of course, that sense of awe can happen elsewhere (in the quiet of monastery chapel, perhaps), but the splendour of the liturgy is its greatest aid, and that is why the Church, in both East and West, does not (certain post-Vatican II aberrancies) does not and should not embrace a minimalist aesthetic.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
[ If so, since albs are required for saying Mass and cassocks are not, that's what 99% of Catholic priests wear and I have no intention of doing anything different.
I think the rubrics assume that the cassock is the normative clothing of a priest, as indeed it is. I would hope that most priests would wear a cassock at least within the physical space of the parish church, if not everywhere in the bounds of the parish, but this sort of discipline seems to have been neglected by modernists as slovenly standards spread. Interestingly, within Anglicanism, the cassock seems more widespread, not only amongst clerics of a high-church persuasion, but amongst virtually all cathedral canons and even, if the series 'Rev' is to be believed, amongst perfectly ordinary MotR parish priests. Quite right, too.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
This should really be a dead horse, but I like cassock-albs. Admittedly there are some hideous designs out there, but a full, well-designed one (worn without girdle) looks, IMHO, better than a traditional girded alb unless the latter is properly worn together with apparelled amice. It's certainly a much more convenient garment [a] for young and maybe slightly scruffy servers, and [b] for priests who might have to rush from church to church with little time between services. It looks equally good worn with stole alone, or with chasuble. And much, much better than lace.
Hear, hear. I am not suggesting that a cassock-alb is superior to the more traditional and/or ornate vestments. I'm just saying that it works just fine in many circumstances and in many types of parishes and God is glorified regardless.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
young and maybe slightly scruffy servers,
Servers, no matter how young, should never be even slightly scruffy.
Most parishes, dear brother, are in the real world. Where it is a joy to find even one young person who is willing to serve, let alone who can afford to, or is inclined to, dress like a character from Brideshead. It doesn't really matter what one wears underneath, but anyone without the aesthetic sensibilities of a pre-Raphaelite would look like a dog's dinner in a traditional alb and appareled amice. I know, I've seen them. A one-piece garment that covers a multitude of sartorial sins is much the best.
[fixed code]
[ 19. July 2012, 17:31: Message edited by: seasick ]
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Originally posted by Angloid:
young and maybe slightly scruffy servers,
Servers, no matter how young, should never be even slightly scruffy.
Most parishes, dear brother, are in the real world. Where it is a joy to find even one young person who is willing to serve, let alone who can afford to, or is inclined to, dress like a character from Brideshead.[/QUOTE]
There's no need for an elaborate wardrobe (although I know a few servers who have cultivated one). Simply a pair of black oxfords, or half brogues, or monkstraps or even slip-ons. Every man should own at least one of these. As for schoolchildren, don't schools in this country require that their darling little charges wear uniforms that invariably include black shoes? I would have thought that, even those that have gone down the polo shirt and hoodie route would surely maintain something a bit smarter so as not to frighten the lady mayoress when she visits (lady mayoresses having notoriously delicate sensitivities, or so I have been reliably told).
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Again, really?
This mass-produced piece of polycrap you find more tasteful and exquisite than this lovingly hand crafted work of devotional art, as perhaps made by a pious spinster for a much loved nephew on the ocassion of his first Mass?
I think the first looks much better. To me, all that lace looks a bit silly -- rather like a big doily -- and to my mind violates what should be the cardinal rule of vestments because it draws attention to itself rather than drawing attention to the One worshipped. Give me the cassock-alb any day over all that fluff.
But then again, I'm a Presbyterian, so what do I know.
A lot. That lace is hideous. It looks as though someone raided all the windows in a retirement village and decided to wear the loot. The cassock-alb to which it was compared is nothing for the photo gallery either but would certainly win if the choices were limited to the two.
I'm afraid I've never been won over by "It was a gift from a loving aunt/It was made by the children of the parish" arguments for using something unfit for purpose. I heard that as sacristan in one parish where I inherited a situation where all of the purificators were a nylon-polyester blend. They were so bad that the creases wouldn't even stay along the folds when I ironed them. They just unfolded themselves again. The fact that they were made from entirely non-absorbent material and just served to smear what they were supposed to absorb around the rim of the chalice was not considered sufficient reason to retire them. They each bore a lovely cross in the corner, and had been a gift from a lady - long since left the parish - who had done the embroidery herself. I suggested having a seamstress cut the crosses out and attach them to some linen or at least cotton purificators that I was willing to purchase myself in order to avoid objections from cost, but the PCC (well, one strong character, really) was having none of it. "They were a gift" trumped every argument from good sense and every attempt at compromise.
I couldn't understand why they didn't follow the policy found everywhere else in my experience of making sure that it is known that, while gifts and donations are welcome, in order to ensure that a gift is put to its best possible use, it is best to check with the PCC/priest/some appointed person what is needed. That way nobody's feelings are hurt and situations of a church being lumbered with beautifully-embroidered purificators that are as useful as a lead parachute simply don't arise.
The albs in the picture and Alcuin photograph were lovely, though.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
young and maybe slightly scruffy servers,
Servers, no matter how young, should never be even slightly scruffy.
Most parishes, dear brother, are in the real world. Where it is a joy to find even one young person who is willing to serve, let alone who can afford to, or is inclined to, dress like a character from Brideshead. It doesn't really matter what one wears underneath, but anyone without the aesthetic sensibilities of a pre-Raphaelite would look like a dog's dinner in a traditional alb and appareled amice. I know, I've seen them. A one-piece garment that covers a multitude of sartorial sins is much the best.
[fixed code]
Hear, bloody hear. Ecclesiantics is getting even more previous than usual recently.
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LostinChelsea
Shipmate
# 5305
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Posted
quote:
Boat Boy wondered:
What is it that makes it a CASSOCK-alb?
I've understood it to mean that it's an alb cut like an Anglican-style cassock. Here is what I'm talking about. I wear one that's 80 percent cotton, so it's not the gicky all-poly things being complained about. It's designed to be worn over clericals, not over a cassock. And it's not like those poofy muumuu-like things that usually get posted about round here.
So whether you like them or not, the answer is: they're cut like an Anglican cassock, so thus likely the name.
Reasons for use, whether you like them or not, have to do with simplicity (one garment with no need of a cassock beneath), appearance (many people like the smooth lines instead of all the gathers in a traditional alb), and ubiquity (some leading suppliers in US don't even carry traditional albs anymore).
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Best when taken in moderation.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
But then again, I'm a Presbyterian, so what do I know.
Well, yes, quite.
That's not meant to be insulting. In the context of a Presbyterian service, an alb with that much lace would be ridiculous. In the context of an Anglican or Roman Catholic high mass, wherein three sacred ministers wore albs like that under vestments of rich brocade embroidered with cloth of gold, assisted by a dozen or more servers all clad in lace cottas, with individual details increasingly obscured behind thick clouds of incense — then it would create a somewhat different impression: one of sheer awe at the beauty of holiness and the splendour of the Creator as manifested in his creatures. The sort of feeling that causes one to sing that we shall 'ponder nothing earthly minded'.
I have traveled outside Presbyterian circles. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) And no insult was noted.
While I see what you are saying and while preferences are certainly often rooted in one's on tradition and in familiarity, I also think it is very dependent on individual taste and culture. What you describe -- "albs like that under vestments of rich brocade embroidered with cloth of gold, assisted by a dozen or more servers all clad in lace cottas" -- is to many, including many Anglicans and Roman Catholics I would wager, more distracting rather than beautiful. Some find the height of beauty in the rich brocade and lace. I would never suggest they are "wrong." Others find more beauty in simplicity. (And I would suggest that in general Americans, of which I am one, often fall more to the simplicity side.) Likwise, I would not suggest they are "wrong." They are just different. Beauty is, after all, in the eye of the beholder.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I agree with Leo.
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
There's no need for an elaborate wardrobe (although I know a few servers who have cultivated one). Simply a pair of black oxfords, or half brogues, or monkstraps or even slip-ons.
Oxfords? Brogues? Please tell me you're not being serious?
quote:
Every man should own at least one of these.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Oh, sorry, you really are being serious aren't you! I've never worn brogues in my life, although my dad used to, and I don't even know what "Black Oxfords" are.
quote:
As for schoolchildren, don't schools in this country require that their darling little charges wear uniforms that invariably include black shoes?
Maybe, but try getting them to wear them at the weekend. As Angloid said, you should be grateful they are in church in the first place and even more so that they are willing to serve. If you start imposing a dress code, you'll lose them very quickly.
May I ask in which decade you grew up?
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
At a stretch I suppose there is a sense in which slinging on a cassock-alb is similar to those 18thC parsons (and into the 19thC of course) who threw a (long?) surplice on over their street clothes.
Therefore the cassock-alb might just appear acceptable to the Brideshead set as well, for exactly reasons.
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sebhyatt
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
Hmm, in the OP I didn't mean 'why don't all priests wear cassocks every day and then a lace alb over the top', rather, if you're not wearing a cassock, why wear a cassock alb rather than an alb?
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
There's no need for an elaborate wardrobe (although I know a few servers who have cultivated one). Simply a pair of black oxfords, or half brogues, or monkstraps or even slip-ons.
Oxfords? Brogues? Please tell me you're not being serious?
quote:
Every man should own at least one of these.
Oh, sorry, you really are being serious aren't you! I've never worn brogues in my life, although my dad used to, and I don't even know what "Black Oxfords" are.
[/QB][/QUOTE]
I was surprised when an assitant in a quality shoe shop recently didn't know either. I have a number of pairs (Plain black lace ups with a toe cap) and black and brown brogues and 'hush puppy' brouges like Ken Clarke.
I dont think one can go wrong with black shoes. Even black brouges go well with tweeds.
But as for expecting servers to wear them, that is another matter. I think I did though - as a reaction to the ghastly dress sense of the previous 70s.
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sebhyatt
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
...I don't even know what "Black Oxfords" are.
As Sebby correctly notes, Oxfords (in British usage) have closed lacing and a plain toecap. I'm surprised that the notion that every man should own a pair of plainish black shoes is so risible to you. You might even find you inadvertently own a pair of such wildly outre things yourself!
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Spike gives up before he even starts:
Maybe, but try getting them to wear [black shoes] at the weekend. As Angloid said, you should be grateful they are in church in the first place and even more so that they are willing to serve. If you start imposing a dress code, you'll lose them very quickly.
May I ask in which decade you grew up?
This, of course, is errant nonsense from beginning to end.
At Our Lady of Hardwork, it's black shoes & black socks. Period. We keep a pair of each in the acolyte closet just in case. The vast majority of acolytes are tweens to teens to early 20s.
The acolyte master's head is not so swelled that she thinks it has anything to do with her: It's all due to the mothers and grandmothers: quote:
You live in my house. That means you are going to church on Sundays and Holy Days, with the rest of the family. If you're going to church, then you might as well serve. Right?
To which of course there is only one correct answer. Truth be told, there is only one acolyte who makes it known she would rather be scrubbing floors. The rest take a sort of exasperated pride in how well they serve. Heck, the MC is frequently be a college student back home on break.
I'll grant you that we are aided by the sure propulsion of an unassailable West Indian Matriarchal Momentum; but, we are unafraid of our strengths.
Now, if only we could inculcate a more German approach to the Clock. Sigh.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I thought brogues were brown. That just shows how much of an oik I am. It's a good job we've got old Etonians back in charge of the country.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
At a stretch I suppose there is a sense in which slinging on a cassock-alb is similar to those 18thC parsons (and into the 19thC of course) who threw a (long?) surplice on over their street clothes.
Therefore the cassock-alb might just appear acceptable to the Brideshead set as well, for exactly reasons.
Actually some of us still just throw on a surplice over our street clothes. Thank goodness for OE surplices! However, since being kicked upstairs, I throw on a rochet over my street garb.
PD
[ 19. July 2012, 21:52: Message edited by: PD ]
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I thought brogues were brown. That just shows how much of an oik I am. It's a good job we've got old Etonians back in charge of the country.
They often are, but brogues can be of any colour. The name refers to the punched decoration as they are descended from the traditional footwear of the highlands, which had patterns of punched holes in the upper to allow water to drain out when walking across boggy land.
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Known by some in the States as "Shotguns" for the pattern of punched holes.
[ 19. July 2012, 22:12: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
I'm surprised that the notion that every man should own a pair of plainish black shoes is so risible to you.
That's not what I said. What I said was I don't know what Black Oxfords are.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
this lovingly hand crafted work of devotional art, as perhaps made by a pious spinster for a much loved nephew on the ocassion of his first Mass?
That is absolutely and utterly hideous.
You're too kind. Personally, I find the pattern to be a wonderful illustration of essential Christian doctrine, akin to Mediæval stained glass. Are those Sacred Hearts (in which case, those parishoners lucky enough to gaze upon such finery should remember the prayer they all presumably utter at Benediction: namely 'Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, Have mercy upon us') or Immaculate Hearts of Mary (in which case, so much the better). As I recently explained to someone who criticized my humble attire of antique lace and watered silk, this vestiture proves a crucial theological point: namely that we are NOT Protestants (I've had enough claret and port tonight to speak the unvarnished truth).
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
May I ask in which decade you grew up?
Oh, I suspect that I was born before you and will probably die before you as well. Deo gracias!
If you really find it so hard to get your little darlings to dress like young gentlemen rather than anthropoid apes, may I suggest one of the following options: either provide Eton collars (to hide their hideous 'tee-shirts') and sanctuary slippers for the boat boys and other younger servers (the slippers can match the newly-mandated liturgically coloured spats for the older servers) or alternatively get rid of your romantic attachment to boy servers altogether, and just have adult severs (after all, you're clearly not prepared to to invest any effort in the lads, as salutary as that might be). I can't really see the fault in either of those options, but I'm sure the very wise Angloid will be over soon to enlighten us with his unique wisdom garnered from his unique experience in the rarefied 'real world' to which most of us can never be privy because we don't share his rarefied taste in avant-garde synthetic fabrics for all.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
Oops...
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
fee fi fo fum, I smell the whiff of Eddy
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
That artorial nightmare is far more likely to make me utter "No Surrender" and throw up!
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
fee fi fo fum, I smell the whiff of Eddy
I kept thinking to myself that I have a strange feeling I've seen this before but I don't know where, thank you for reminding me.
And as a Catholic of a very, very traditional bent, I find anything more than 2 and a half to three inches of lace trimmed on anything ghastly. Better none at all, as Blessed Percy would have it.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I agree with Leo.
What Leo believes we all believe. Anathema to him who believes anything else. Peter has spoken by the mouth of Leo. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
I'm surprised that the notion that every man should own a pair of plainish black shoes is so risible to you.
That's not what I said. What I said was I don't know what Black Oxfords are.
Prefaced by:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
There's no need for an elaborate wardrobe (although I know a few servers who have cultivated one). Simply a pair of black oxfords, or half brogues, or monkstraps or even slip-ons.
Oxfords? Brogues? Please tell me you're not being serious?
quote:
Every man should own at least one of these.
Oh, sorry, you really are being serious aren't you! I've never worn brogues in my life, although my dad used to, and I don't even know what "Black Oxfords" are.
I can't see what else could mean in the context.
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
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Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Hear, bloody hear. Ecclesiantics is getting even more previous than usual recently.
For the life of me, I can't understand what 'more previous' means here (or in any other context, for that matter). It's not an English construction I've ever come across in my reading or earthly conversation.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
It wasn't my post, but even I could guess it was a misprint for 'more precious'.
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
If you really find it so hard to get your little darlings to dress like young gentlemen rather than anthropoid apes, may I suggest one of the following options: either provide Eton collars (to hide their hideous 'tee-shirts') and sanctuary slippers for the boat boys and other younger servers (the slippers can match the newly-mandated liturgically coloured spats for the older servers) or alternatively get rid of your romantic attachment to boy servers altogether
Hold on tightly to your gin because you're about to be in for a shock.
We have both boys and [shock-horror] girls serving at the altar in our shack. Perhaps we ought to get the girls in brogues and looking like young gentlemen too!
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Perhaps we ought to get the girls in brogues and looking like young gentlemen too!
The idea that female altar servers should look like gentlemen does not strike me as particularly outrageous, if by that we mean 'well presented in masculine attire'. The cassock and cotta are, after all, originally articles of male attire, and any person (of either sex) wearing them should look well-presented. This does not mean that women need to wear men's shoes: any form of closed-toe black shoe looks respectable enough. Unless the sacristan is willing to alter each cassock to fit each server individually (and I know some diligent sacristans who do this), then it is of vital importance that women wear black tights or stockings and men black socks (or, indeed, black tights, as at least one well-known parish priest in North London is known to do).
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
...it is of vital importance that women wear black tights or stockings and men black socks...
What a novel definition of the word 'vital' you appear to cleave to...
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
...it is of vital importance that women wear black tights or stockings and men black socks...
What a novel definition of the word 'vital' you appear to cleave to...
Liturgically coloured socks should be allowed, but only great solemnities and preferably when wearing matching spats.
The sight of a white athletic sock (not that I own such an item, you understand) under a cassock would, however, be most unedifying.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Given the vital importance of such matters, I beg to report that, although I attire myself each Sunday mostly in black, I do have ties of all liturgical colours (including pink for Gaudate and Laetare Sundays, and Sarum blue for Advent).
On alternate Sundays, however, I am, as a 'blue-scarfed gentleman', vested in alb and blue scarf (or, on high days, alb and tunicle). The vital question, of course, is whether or not I am permitted to wear a coloured tie whilst so vested........
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
While I see what you are saying and while preferences are certainly often rooted in one's on tradition and in familiarity, I also think it is very dependent on individual taste and culture. What you describe -- "albs like that under vestments of rich brocade embroidered with cloth of gold, assisted by a dozen or more servers all clad in lace cottas" -- is to many, including many Anglicans and Roman Catholics I would wager, more distracting rather than beautiful. Some find the height of beauty in the rich brocade and lace. I would never suggest they are "wrong." Others find more beauty in simplicity. (And I would suggest that in general Americans, of which I am one, often fall more to the simplicity side.) Likwise, I would not suggest they are "wrong." They are just different. Beauty is, after all, in the eye of the beholder.
Well stated, Nick Tamen. I think your observation about individual taste and culture is spot on. And I would even go so far as to say that "bad taste" is not the equivalent of "something I just don't like." In bringing "our selves, our souls and bodies" to worship, we can't help but come with our own needs, understandings, cultural contexts, and ways of receiving/responding to information, visual/aural stimuli, and so on. The diversity of worship in the world is not something to mock (short, perhaps, of snake-handling).
Some time ago, a Shipmate had as her sig a portion of this quote from the Sufi poet Rumi: quote:
There are a thousand ways to kneel and kiss the ground, there are a thousand ways to go home again.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
If you really find it so hard to get your little darlings to dress like young gentlemen rather than anthropoid apes, may I suggest one of the following options: either provide Eton collars (to hide their hideous 'tee-shirts') and sanctuary slippers for the boat boys and other younger servers (the slippers can match the newly-mandated liturgically coloured spats
Do you really exist?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Hear, bloody hear. Ecclesiantics is getting even more previous than usual recently.
For the life of me, I can't understand what 'more previous' means here (or in any other context, for that matter). It's not an English construction I've ever come across in my reading or earthly conversation.
Sorry, meant 'precious'.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Quick query about water used in communion services. (We don't have a sink with a tap, so it's brought in, in bottles.) Any good reasons (practical or theological) why sparkling/fizzy water shouldn't be used in the cruets?
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Dunno about the rest of you Eccles denizens, but ISTM there is a distinct smell of troll (or even sockpuppet) around.........
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Quick query about water used in communion services. (We don't have a sink with a tap, so it's brought in, in bottles.) Any good reasons (practical or theological) why sparkling/fizzy water shouldn't be used in the cruets?
Any good reason why it should? I suppose it might be appropriate at Pentecost. But what's the problem with bringing bottles of tap water?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
I can't really see the fault in either of those options, but I'm sure the very wise Angloid will be over soon to enlighten us with his unique wisdom garnered from his unique experience in the rarefied 'real world' to which most of us can never be privy because we don't share his rarefied taste in avant-garde synthetic fabrics for all.
(S)pike couchant:
In Ecclesiantics, we strive to create at atmosphere of respect for the many and various traditions represented here. In your rather brief time with us so far, you have attracted the attention of the hosts of this board for rather the wrong reasons. The quote above is sailing extremely close to the wind on personal attacks (forbidden by Commandment 3). Taken together with your other contributions, the picture is not favourable. I advise you to reacquaint yourself with the 10 Commandments of the Ship and with the guidelines of this board (and indeed of others on which you may choose to post). The hosts and the admins will be watching closely.
seasick, Ecclesiantics host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Perhaps we ought to get the girls in brogues and looking like young gentlemen too!
The idea that female altar servers should look like gentlemen does not strike me as particularly outrageous, if by that we mean 'well presented in masculine attire'.
Some churches believe it is the other way round. they dress their men in so much lace that you'd think they wanted to feminise them.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Quick query about water used in communion services. (We don't have a sink with a tap, so it's brought in, in bottles.) Any good reasons (practical or theological) why sparkling/fizzy water shouldn't be used in the cruets?
Any good reason why it should? I suppose it might be appropriate at Pentecost. But what's the problem with bringing bottles of tap water?
The only reason I can think of for avoiding fizzy water is just that it might look a bit peculiar (unless you are in a volcanic region and the water fizzes naturally, and unless Anselmina has moved geology recently, she isn't!)
But as the bubbles will dissipate quite quickly anyway even this isn't much of a concern.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Just decant the fizzy water into the cruet before the service, and it will have gone flat by the time of communion, I'd have thought. But why bother? Even if Irish tap water is undrinkable, (which I can't imagine) still water will be cheaper.
[ 20. July 2012, 16:40: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
I suppose it's a similar question that of the north London Anglo-Catholics who apparently use champagne at Easter. I've not seen it myself, but I have seen a good Sauternes used in Portsmouth.
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Thanks for the replies, gentlemen.
One of the wardens buys several outers of six at a time; little bottles of water for the vestry which I work my way through, Lidl's finest. And the recent batch is fizzy stuff, which rather surprized me! But I couldn't think of a good reason why I should request still water.
But it is bizaare to ablute with the semi-alcholic bubbles tickling one's nose!
venbede, Irish drinking water is beautiful! Except when it's been flooding, or something's gone funny with the drains.... Always best to check the colour first .
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I thought brogues were brown. That just shows how much of an oik I am. It's a good job we've got old Etonians back in charge of the country.
I am sure you are not an oik dear Father. Christianty is, after all, supposed to be a refining religion.
Its good about those Etonians isn't it? I had to vote Labour in 1997 when I saw that the leader had been to Fettes.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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