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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Random Liturgical Questions (answers on a postcard, please)
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jlav12
Apprentice
# 17148
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Posted
Is the book "Anglican Service Book" authorized for general use in TEC?
Posts: 34 | From: Albany, New York | Registered: Jun 2012
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlav12:
Is the book "Anglican Service Book" authorized for general use in TEC?
It certainly isn't mentioned in the Canons of the Episcopal Church.
As the foreward goes to great lengths to justify its legitimacy in light of the permissive directions in BCP79, it doesn't really seem necessary for it to be authorized at all.
The only materials that should be iffy would be the ones that clearly do not have a comparison in the BCP79.
I await to hear from TEC Shipmates "in the know."
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
I can't say except that the '79 book itself would seem to authorize it.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
The Anglican Service book is a great resource. We have a copy in our parish library. Given the way in which it subtly corrects some of the more, um, eccentric choices of the 1979 as well as including a great deal of useful material not found in that book, I think there might actually be a market for a 'modern-language' version of it. That, taken with the existing Anglican Service Book, would be a pretty good start for the next Prayer Book revision. I can't see that happening, though. Not in the near future, at least.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
It certainly isn't mentioned in the Canons of the Episcopal Church.
As the foreward goes to great lengths to justify its legitimacy in light of the permissive directions in BCP79, it doesn't really seem necessary for it to be authorized at all.
The only materials that should be iffy would be the ones that clearly do not have a comparison in the BCP79.
I'm curious as to why the material that does not have a comparison with the BCP '79 would be iffy. I would think the opposite since any repetition would defeat the purpose of having common prayers.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JSwift:
I'm curious as to why the material that does not have a comparison with the BCP '79 would be iffy. I would think the opposite since any repetition would defeat the purpose of having common prayers.
The material that does not have a comparison is unauthorized material. Some of it is probably justifiable under "Rite 3" and other open-ended rubrics, and this is why I left it at "iffy" instead of "forbidden."
I am disappointed in the lack of a Eucharistic Prayer C option, so here it goes:
quote:
The Lord be with you.
And with thy spirit.
Lift up your hearts.
We lift them up unto the Lord.
Let us give thanks unto our Lord God.
It is meet and right so to do.
Then, facing the Holy Table, the celebrant proceeds
O God of all power, Ruler of the Universe, thou art worthy of glory and praise.
Glory to thee for ever and ever.
At thy command all things came to be: the vast expanse of interstellar space, galaxies, suns, the planets in their courses, and this fragile earth, our island home.
By thy will they were created and have their being.
From the primal elements thou broughtest forth the human race, and blessed us with memory, reason, and skill. Thou madest us the rulers of creation. But we turned against thee, and betrayed thy trust; and we turned against one another.
Have mercy, O Lord, for we are sinners in thy sight.
Again and again, thou called us to return. Through prophets and sages thou revealed thy righteous Law. And in the fullness of time thou sent thine only Son, born of a woman, to fulfill thy Law, to open for us the way of freedom and peace.
By his blood, he reconciled us. By his wounds, we are healed.
And therefore we praise thee, joining with the heavenly chorus, with prophets, apostles, and martyrs, and with all thee in every generation who have looked to thee in hope, to proclaim with them thy glory, in their unending hymn:
Celebrant and People
Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of Hosts:
Heaven and earth are full of thy Glory.
Glory be to thee, O Lord Most High.
Here may be added
Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.
The people kneel or stand.
Then the Celebrant continues
And so, O Father, we who have been redeemed by him, and made a new people by water and the Spirit, now bring before thee these gifts. Sanctify them by thy Holy Spirit to be the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ our Lord.
At the following words concerning the bread, the Celebrant is to hold it, or lay a hand upon it, and at the words concerning the cup, to hold or place a hand upon the cup and any other vessel containing wine to be consecrated.
On the night he was betrayed he took bread, said the blessing, broke the bread, and gave it to his friends, and said, "Take, eat: This is my Body, which is given for you. Do this for the remembrance of me."
After supper, he took the cup of wine, gave thanks, and said, "Drink this, all of you: This is my Blood of the new Covenant, which is shed for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins. Whenever you drink it, do this for the remembrance of me."
Remembering now his work of redemption, and offering to thee this sacrifice of thanksgiving,
We celebrate his death and resurrection,
as we await the day of his coming.
Lord God of our Fathers: God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ: Open our eyes to see your hand at work in the world about us. Deliver us from the presumption of coming to this Table for solace only, and not for strength; for pardon only, and not for renewal. Let the grace of this Holy Communion make us one body, one spirit in Christ, that we may worthily serve the world in his name.
Risen Lord, be known to us in the breaking of the Bread.
Accept these prayers and praises, O Father, through Jesus Christ our great High Priest, to whom, with thee and the Holy Spirit, thy Church gives honor, glory, and worship, from generation to generation. AMEN.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I think the lack of the Star Wars Canon has something to do with the fact that most Anglo-Catholics have a slight down on it. I also have a dim recollection that the Anglican Service Book was a Good Shepherd, Rosemont, PA production.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I think the lack of the Star Wars Canon has something to do with the fact that most Anglo-Catholics have a slight down on it.
I would think so.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
The principal need for the Anglican Service Book (ASB) is due to the fact that, while the 1979 BCP provided for "traditional" language in its Rite I, the traditional-language parish was marooned on the "contemporary" language island of Rite II when it came to Holy Week services. Thus, the 1979 rite of Holy Baptism, the 1979 ordinal rites, Psalm Sunday, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday, and the Great Vigil of Easter can be celebrated without language whiplash.
The ASB Psalter is from the 1928 Book.
Further, there are additional liturgical tidbits thought necessary to the healthy prayer life of the Anglocatholic shack: Asperges and Vidi Aquam, antiphons on the Benedictus & Magnificat, Stations of the Cross, Benediction, the Marian Anthems throughout the year, and, in a point-size humans can read, the Athanasian Creed.
There's other things, too (weird and ordinary), but this pretty much summarizes the situation.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I think the lack of the Star Wars Canon has something to do with the fact that most Anglo-Catholics have a slight down on it. I also have a dim recollection that the Anglican Service Book was a Good Shepherd, Rosemont, PA production.
True. Our A-C shack uses A, B, and D, never C.
Personally, the Star Wars bits annoy me less than the little Galley signature sermonette, "Deliver us from the presumption of coming to this table for solace only, and not for strength; for pardon only, and not for renewal." On its own, it's a well-said thing and a great point for meditation, but that doesn't mean it fits in a eucharistic prayer. I might someday come up with a worthy prayer text about the Sacrament, but that doesn't mean it needs to be said by a celebrant in orans posture at an altar. This particular bit sometimes makes me think a single unchanging classic eucharistic prayer is the best way to go.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
I think there might actually be a market for a 'modern-language' version of it. That, taken with the existing Anglican Service Book, would be a pretty good start for the next Prayer Book revision. I can't see that happening, though. Not in the near future, at least.
No reason to. Something similar already exists.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
I presume the reason that the 'Start Wars' Canon wasn't included is because it sounds bizarre to talk about interstellar space in cod-Jacobean. It's weird enough mentioning amending the Great Litany to include 'all that travel by land, water, or air'.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I don't mind it, apart from the congregation butting in during the prayer. That happens with one of the eucharistic prayers in Common Worship, although the once I heard it used the congregational buttings in were omitted in the service sheet.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I think that's Prayer H, sebby, with the Sanctus at the end.
We tried it out at my last church for the children's mass, but since it involves everyone having their head in the service book, and lots of them probably not following it, we gave it a miss.
Acclamations are a nice idea, but Common Worship does go overboard on them, and I'm sure they backfire - as much as involving the congregation, they are likely to confuse.
(The text of Prayer H is OK, and having the Sanctus at the end was a theory in Dixian liturgical circles, I believe. I still think all those responses are confusing.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Litany to include 'all that travel by land, water, or air'.
That dates from the 1928 BCP and I see nothing weird saying it. People do travel by air, and the word existed in C16 English.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Litany to include 'all that travel by land, water, or air'.
That dates from the 1928 BCP and I see nothing weird saying it. People do travel by air, and the word existed in C16 English.
I think if you travelled by air in C16 England your next journey was up-and-down on the ducking stool.
Sorry. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
(The text of Prayer H is OK, and having the Sanctus at the end was a theory in Dixian liturgical circles, I believe. I still think all those responses are confusing.)
Indeed - Prayer H (and its Irish cousin, Prayer 3) seem to be modeled on how Dix argued the Jewish prayers of Thanksgiving at the Last Supper might have gone, with a common acclamation very similar to the Sanctus as its culmination.
I don't mind this, but like many people I'm not sure about the wisdom of requiring the congregation to keep interjecting. Now that I'm familiar enough to remember the responses by heart it's not so bad, but for a while I spent the whole prayer reading along which was rather distracting.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Thank you, dj.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Litany to include 'all that travel by land, water, or air'.
That dates from the 1928 BCP and I see nothing weird saying it. People do travel by air, and the word existed in C16 English.
Broom sticks?
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
(The text of Prayer H is OK, and having the Sanctus at the end was a theory in Dixian liturgical circles, I believe. I still think all those responses are confusing.)
Indeed - Prayer H (and its Irish cousin, Prayer 3) seem to be modeled on how Dix argued the Jewish prayers of Thanksgiving at the Last Supper might have gone, with a common acclamation very similar to the Sanctus as its culmination.
I don't mind this, but like many people I'm not sure about the wisdom of requiring the congregation to keep interjecting. Now that I'm familiar enough to remember the responses by heart it's not so bad, but for a while I spent the whole prayer reading along which was rather distracting.
I hate, hate, hate any prayers which call on the congregation to join in with unfamiliar words. To my mind it ruins, not enhances, participation. It certainly reduces it to saying words rather than entering into an action: if you need to have your head buried in a book you're not able to see what is going on at the altar. With a congregation of suitable size (i.e., usually, weekday festivals) I've often invited them to stand around the altar and if you have to carry a book (or worse, two or three books) with you it's an additional distraction.
I've just finished doing duty at a church where the custom was for the congregation to say together the collect for the day (and the proper post-communion). You need preparation simply to read words like that, with often complicated syntax, let alone to pray them.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I tick the like box to that one, angloid.
I noticed in the TEC eucharistic prayer printed above the little rubric for the congregation to stand or kneel, which I've recently seen in most of the EPs in the TEC BCP. Nothing about sitting.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
(The text of Prayer H is OK, and having the Sanctus at the end was a theory in Dixian liturgical circles, I believe. I still think all those responses are confusing.)
Indeed - Prayer H (and its Irish cousin, Prayer 3) seem to be modeled on how Dix argued the Jewish prayers of Thanksgiving at the Last Supper might have gone, with a common acclamation very similar to the Sanctus as its culmination.
I don't mind this, but like many people I'm not sure about the wisdom of requiring the congregation to keep interjecting. Now that I'm familiar enough to remember the responses by heart it's not so bad, but for a while I spent the whole prayer reading along which was rather distracting.
I hate, hate, hate any prayers which call on the congregation to join in with unfamiliar words. To my mind it ruins, not enhances, participation. It certainly reduces it to saying words rather than entering into an action: if you need to have your head buried in a book you're not able to see what is going on at the altar. With a congregation of suitable size (i.e., usually, weekday festivals) I've often invited them to stand around the altar and if you have to carry a book (or worse, two or three books) with you it's an additional distraction.
I've just finished doing duty at a church where the custom was for the congregation to say together the collect for the day (and the proper post-communion). You need preparation simply to read words like that, with often complicated syntax, let alone to pray them.
Yes! yes! Some people believe in a slightly absurd way that participation means everyone saying everything all of the time. The notion that the congregational should join in the collect particuarly is silly, and could be remedied by a celebrant from outside like yourself saying the collect really quickly to throw them off, as it were. It is just bad liturgy and nothing to do with any shade of churchmanship.
The Exeter diocese had a series of workshops that travelled the deaneries a few years ago and open to all. This Joining In Everything was particuarly mentioned as how NOT to do it. The example mimicked by the archdeacon was the habit in some parishes of getting everyone to say the biddings in the ASB intercessions. In his impersonation he put on the particular rhythm that usually accompanied such a practice, to the amusement of the mixed churchmanship audience.
Personally I can cope with the acclamations, but dilike the congregation butting in what I feel should be said by the president (or I would prefer 'celebrant' but yes, I understand that we all celebrate blah blah).
And anything that makes people stuff their heads into books and not realise that the eucharist is an action to watch and participate in, in another sense, would be frustrating. I'm often a little surprised at seeing everyone buried in a booklet when the dominical actions are being performed at the altar, as if totally ignoring what is going on.
The vicar here brings the children up to the altar and tells them to WATCH very closely what is happening.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Litany to include 'all that travel by land, water, or air'.
That dates from the 1928 BCP and I see nothing weird saying it. People do travel by air, and the word existed in C16 English.
There's nothing wrong with the prayer, and I don't object to its inclusion. I just think it would have bewildered the composers of the original litany ('what new witchcraft is this?'). It doesn't jarr too much, but I think adding 'and through outer space' would.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So are you saying that we should not pray for astronauts?
I imagine it might be a drag to have to figure out every time whether there's someone in outer space at the moment. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
But maybe I'm showing my age. Used to be when someone was in outer space, just about everyone knew it. Didn't follow all that Apollo coverage for nothing.
[ 21. July 2012, 20:25: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I tick the like box to that one, angloid.
I noticed in the TEC eucharistic prayer printed above the little rubric for the congregation to stand or kneel, which I've recently seen in most of the EPs in the TEC BCP. Nothing about sitting.
Is sitting a customary option elsewhere? The bulk of Episcopalians kneel, IME, when the church has kneelers. Around here, they are a virtual given. The elderly sometimes do a Prot Squat, with backside on the edge of the pew and knees in a kneeling position, hovering on the kneeler but bearing little if any weight.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Circuit Rider contends that the use of blue for Advent is not generally Anglican, that it is the Lutherans and Presbyterians who primarily use the color.
I contend that blue is Anglican, that it comes from the Sarum Use, and that while others may use blue, it is primarily an Anglican tradition.
Who is right?
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I can't remember seeing blue vestments used in an Anglican church, except possibly some 30 years ago in Advent at Exeter Cathedral, when the Sarum colours were still given in the C of E lectionary. They aren't now.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Litany to include 'all that travel by land, water, or air'.
That dates from the 1928 BCP and I see nothing weird saying it. People do travel by air, and the word existed in C16 English.
There's nothing wrong with the prayer, and I don't object to its inclusion. I just think it would have bewildered the composers of the original litany ('what new witchcraft is this?'). It doesn't jarr too much, but I think adding 'and through outer space' would.
Notwithstanding my facetious response above, I think it would be an inexcusable omission to not include "or by air" in the present translation of the Great Litany (as noted, first included in said litany in TEC's 1928 BCP, to much approbation AIUI.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Litany to include 'all that travel by land, water, or air'.
That dates from the 1928 BCP and I see nothing weird saying it. People do travel by air, and the word existed in C16 English.
There's nothing wrong with the prayer, and I don't object to its inclusion. I just think it would have bewildered the composers of the original litany ('what new witchcraft is this?'). It doesn't jarr too much, but I think adding 'and through outer space' would.
It seems to me the composers of the original litany included those circumstances and those sorts and conditions of folk that they knew needed prayer. I should think that offering prayers for the safety of those who travel in space would not be inconsistent with the intent of the originators and, indeed, would be appropriate.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I think that's Prayer H, sebby, with the Sanctus at the end.
We tried it out at my last church for the children's mass, but since it involves everyone having their head in the service book, and lots of them probably not following it, we gave it a miss.
Acclamations are a nice idea, but Common Worship does go overboard on them, and I'm sure they backfire - as much as involving the congregation, they are likely to confuse.
(The text of Prayer H is OK, and having the Sanctus at the end was a theory in Dixian liturgical circles, I believe. I still think all those responses are confusing.)
I like Prayer H except for the constant interruptions. It ticks all the right boxes for me in that it is short, to the point, and is not speculative in its theology. It rather fits in with my straight forward attitude to religious matters. I tend to prefer the traditional pattern of congregational participation, so I am always a bit horrified when the congregation are asked to join in during the Prayer of Consecration. I am afraid that at that point, when I am in the congregation I prefer to reverently contemplate what is being done and said at the altar.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I can't remember seeing blue vestments used in an Anglican church, except possibly some 30 years ago in Advent at Exeter Cathedral, when the Sarum colours were still given in the C of E lectionary. They aren't now.
In the USA the blue started appearing in TEC during the original trial use period, in the late sixties and early seventies. Prior to that its use was virtually unknown, even in parishes that had been using liturgical colors since well before the turn of the last century.
You can be well assured that church supply companies had much to do with popularizing the use of blue. But to do that, they had to latch on to someone's academic theory, to sound respectable, and not as if profit was the the true motive. In TEC, that theory became the Sarum blue thesis. For RCs, they latched on to the notion that Advent was not truly a penitential season, as was Lent, and thus needed a different color. Blue became that color, since they were already hawking it to Anglicans; where they were unscuccessful with blue, they pushed lighter hues of violet, maintaining that one could not use the same shade for both seasons.
All of these were theories that had been advanced by certain prominent, reform-minded liturgists, but were by no means universal, and certainly had never been promulgated by Rome. Moroever, church suppliers, missalette and hymnal publishers and vestment makers all had much to do with popularizing many of the styles that followed Vatican II and became associated with the Council.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I'm sure I've been told this somewhere.
I thought the reason why readers wear blue scarves is because blue isn't used for anything else. So no one would mistake them for anything else, like priests.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I can't remember seeing blue vestments used in an Anglican church, except possibly some 30 years ago in Advent at Exeter Cathedral, when the Sarum colours were still given in the C of E lectionary. They aren't now.
We have two blue chasubles for feasts of Our Lady (if someone remembers). The older, and more beautiful one, has been in use since the 1920s; the newer one was given to the church a few years ago. We are high, but not really pukka anglo-catholic.
[ 22. July 2012, 08:09: Message edited by: Sacred London ]
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
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Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
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Originally posted by venbede:
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Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Litany to include 'all that travel by land, water, or air'.
That dates from the 1928 BCP and I see nothing weird saying it. People do travel by air, and the word existed in C16 English.
There's nothing wrong with the prayer, and I don't object to its inclusion. I just think it would have bewildered the composers of the original litany ('what new witchcraft is this?'). It doesn't jarr too much, but I think adding 'and through outer space' would.
"or beyond the air" might work better though. I think it's a question of finding appropriate language to fit once you have identified a need.
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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St Percy writes:
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There is good English authority for using blue in Advent and Septuagesima and even for the first four Sundays (not week days) of Lent.
(Parson's Handbook, pg. 116)
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The color sequence of Wells [sic] also prescribes blue for Advent and Lent, with red for Passiontide.
(Pg. 124)
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The 'violet' for Advent does not of course mean the unpleasant colour (so removed from the colour of the violet flower) at present provided by the shops. There is no such restriction as to tints, and a rather dark blue, or even a bright blue, or purple, is equally suitable for Advent.
(Pg. 126)
[ 22. July 2012, 11:50: Message edited by: Padre Joshua ]
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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We've got a beautiful old Sarum blue chasuble, which is used during Advent and Lent (though not on every Sunday during those seasons, as it is now rather old and frail!).
We also have a cream chasuble with various blue decorations (e.g. fleur-de-lis), and a light blue chasuble (also with fleur-de-lis, in silver), for Feasts of Our Lady. The light blue chasuble comes our at least once a month for the Walsingham Mass.
Ian J.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
My home parish had a blue set for Advent and the 'Gesimas and also a white with blue orpheys for Our Lady. They probably dated from the early 1920s when the parish was going trough a Dearmerish phase.
There was also a church shop purple set that was the same vintage as the "new" high altar and the big six that sat upon it. That would have been about 1950-52. There was a slight change of churchmanship in the late-40s which evidently had its effect.
PD
[ 22. July 2012, 14:12: Message edited by: PD ]
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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sebby
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As a boy I remember the vicar wearing a blue stole and saying that it was 'Sarum' and a form of purple. He was 94 and had been a pupil of Percy Dearmer when (the vicar) had been a mature student at King's, London in the early 1920s.
Whatever the rights and wrongs, he would wear it for funerals. For some reason I seem to rememebr him saying that it was 'an ancient colour of mourning'.
The same vicar would frequently wear the surplice, hood, and stole combination. The surplice was Warham Guild and happened to have been silk, although rather old and so with many cotton patches. He wore a Warham Guild style AKC hood and occasionally the more usual sort.
The hood and stole combination has been discussed on here, and the conclusions that it was quite common amongst a certain generation bears out the habit of this particular vicar. His churchmanship was said to be 'moderate High' or just over middle.
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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Litany to include 'all that travel by land, water, or air'.
That dates from the 1928 BCP and I see nothing weird saying it. People do travel by air, and the word existed in C16 English.
There's nothing wrong with the prayer, and I don't object to its inclusion. I just think it would have bewildered the composers of the original litany ('what new witchcraft is this?'). It doesn't jarr too much, but I think adding 'and through outer space' would.
"or beyond the air" might work better though. I think it's a question of finding appropriate language to fit once you have identified a need.
I agree with your assessment of the problem and think that your solution is an elegant one.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
Isn't it the case that liturgical colours were by no means fixed in medieval times and in any case depended on the availability of various coloured dyes which were much more restricted than today?
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Isn't it the case that liturgical colours were by no means fixed in medieval times and in any case depended on the availability of various coloured dyes which were much more restricted than today?
I think they were fixed to some considerable degree according to the local cathedral and monastic uses but that once you got out into the parishes and dependencies, the situation was much as you describe.
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Even to this day, I believe there is a provision for Catholic clergy to wear vestments that are a different color, provided that they are more precious.
I think the intent behind it is to cover those special golden or silver sets that churches might have. A prime example of this is the use of those golden chasubles one sometimes sees in Catholic churches on Christmas or Easter, despite the fact that they contain a fair amount of red.
I wouldn't be surprised if some churches buy really nice blue sets, and use them for Marian feasts or Advent under the "precious" exception, even though (I seem to recall) blue is not authorized for Catholics in the US.
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Edgeman
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# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
I wouldn't be surprised if some churches buy really nice blue sets, and use them for Marian feasts or Advent under the "precious" exception, even though (I seem to recall) blue is not authorized for Catholics in the US.
How have I never thought of this? Be right back, going to commission a set of blue vestments.
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
I wouldn't be surprised if some churches buy really nice blue sets, and use them for Marian feasts or Advent under the "precious" exception, even though (I seem to recall) blue is not authorized for Catholics in the US.
How have I never thought of this? Be right back, going to commission a set of blue vestments.
Don't be hard on yourself. I am Lutheran. It is second-nature for me to find the way out of rubrics... Thankfully I use this power for good.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Isn't it the case that liturgical colours were by no means fixed in medieval times and in any case depended on the availability of various coloured dyes which were much more restricted than today?
In essence the smallest mediaeval parishes would have had a good set of vestments, a this'll do for ordinary set of vestments, and a Lenten set - which might be linen, blue or even black.
The surviving inventories show an overwhelming preponderance of red. IIRC white was in the runner up position, then blue/violet, then green/yellow. The inexorable law of 'we will use the best tat for Easter also applied in spades in the Middle Ages. I guess the real rules back then were 'bright' for feasts; dull for normal; line or dark colours for Lent and Advent.
PD
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Papouli
Apprentice
# 17209
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I guess the real rules back then were 'bright' for feasts; dull for normal; line or dark colours for Lent and Advent.
This is still the current practice in the Orthodox Church. The weekdays of Great Lent and Holy Week call for dark vestments; all other days throughout the year are bright vestments. Bright commonly includes white, red, gold, blue or green. I usually wear red vestments for Pascha. Blue is traditional for Epiphany, some priests also wear blue for feasts of the Virgin Mary (but red is more traditional).
It is common to see a variety of colors worn at any feast, as we wear our own personal vestments, so most clergy will wear what they like!
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
Anglican still react a little bit that way unless they are doctrinaire Anglo-Catholics or uptight Evangelicals. My present parish has two red sets. One is rather bright and is worn for feasts of the Apostles and Martyrs, the other is a dull red, and comes out for Passiontide. All three green sets are quite bright, the one real disappointment is out festal set, which is white and is a bit of an under-achiever. However, I have a gold cope that I use for Christmas and Easter which manages the right level of "liturgical bling."
PD
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otyetsfoma
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# 12898
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Posted
At the Grande Seminaire in Sherbrooke PQ in the 1940s they got around the "blue is not allowed for feasts of our lady except in Spain"rule by having a rather diaphonous white set with blue lining that looked entirely blue,
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