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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Random Liturgical Questions (answers on a postcard, please)
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papouli:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I guess the real rules back then were 'bright' for feasts; dull for normal; line or dark colours for Lent and Advent.
This is still the current practice in the Orthodox Church. The weekdays of Great Lent and Holy Week call for dark vestments; all other days throughout the year are bright vestments. Bright commonly includes white, red, gold, blue or green. I usually wear red vestments for Pascha. Blue is traditional for Epiphany, some priests also wear blue for feasts of the Virgin Mary (but red is more traditional).
It is common to see a variety of colors worn at any feast, as we wear our own personal vestments, so most clergy will wear what they like!
While this may be the case in the Greek church, among some of the Slavic churches are to be found a number of local variants of a generally followed colour scheme, which seems to closely resemble that used by the Antiochian church (at least in this country).
The everyday colour is some form of gold, with crimson or purple used during fasting seasons. Green is used at Theophany and on Palm Sunday, with blue for feasts of the Mother of God and red for feasts of martyrs. Black is used on Great and Holy Friday, the first part of the Vesperal Liturgy of St Basil on Holy Saturday, as well as at the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts on the weekdays of the Great fast. (I dislike the anglophone Orthodox trend of using Lent as a synonym for fasting season for the same reason that I dislike the nonsense word hierodeacon: I just can't make either usage make sense to my little brain.) Pascha gets white/silver, with some places following the local Moscow practice of changing to red for the Liturgy.
There are other specifics and considerable variety but that seems to be the basis of the commonly accepted scheme in places where it is used.
[ 23. July 2012, 16:27: Message edited by: Michael Astley ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
I forgot to add that Pentecost usually gets green too, and the church is decorated with greenery. It isn't unknown for some places to actually bring trees into the church for the feast.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Papouli
Apprentice
# 17209
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Posted
Hierodeacon comes from the Greek word ierodiakonos, which is used liturgically for all deacons - it means sacred deacon, or server. I believe Slavs use hierodeacon only for celibate deacons, but that isn't correct as the prefix "iero" doesn't mean celibate, just sacred, holy or priestly. They confuse it with hieromonk, ieromonachos, which is the term for a priest-monk, and necessarily always a celibate presbyter.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papouli:
I believe Slavs use hierodeacon only for celibate deacons, but that isn't correct as the prefix "iero" doesn't mean celibate, just sacred, holy or priestly.
Precisely! "Hieromonk" was explained to me as "priestmonk" so when I first encountered monastic deacons referred to as "hierodeacon", it just didn't compute. To my reading, the wrong affix has been applied to "deacon".
Similarly, "Lent" just comes from an old word for spring, and has long become a standard abbreviation for "Lenten fast", which simply means "springtime fast" because of the time of year that it occurs (at least in the northern hemisphere, where the terminology was coined). Yet Orthodox calendars sometimes refer to Dormition Lent, Nativity Lent, and forth, which isn't what they mean at all.
[ 23. July 2012, 21:43: Message edited by: Michael Astley ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Glad you are at least being consistent Michael. I am always amused when Orthodox insist on saying Pascha (not an English word) rather than Easter, but then happily use Lent.
I suppose Catholics could insist on saying Pasqua and Quadragesima, but I'm glad they don't!
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Glad you are at least being consistent Michael. I am always amused when Orthodox insist on saying Pascha (not an English word) rather than Easter, but then happily use Lent.
I think I use both interchangeably. I suppose audience comes into play as well but because I don't do it consciously, I cant be sure without thinking about it.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Papouli
Apprentice
# 17209
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Glad you are at least being consistent Michael. I am always amused when Orthodox insist on saying Pascha (not an English word) rather than Easter, but then happily use Lent.
I suppose Catholics could insist on saying Pasqua and Quadragesima, but I'm glad they don't!
Passover, or Pascha, is a fairly easy word for many English speakers to understand. I wouldn't insist on Jews calling their feast Easter, so no reason for the Orthodox to use that word either. I could be mistaken, but I believe more Catholics use the word Pascha (or similar) than Easter throughout the world.
However, we do borrow the English word Lent because Sarakoste or Triodion are not commonly understood in English.
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
You make it sound as if the Orthodox are celebrating something entirely different from the rest of Christendom. I wouldn't expect Jews to celebrate Easter because Easter is the celebration of the Resurrection of the Lord.
Great numbers of other languages have variants of Paschale - paque in French, pasqua in Italian, pascua in Spanish. Similarly those languages have a variant on Quadragesima for Lent: quaresima in Italian, careme in French, cuaresma in Spanish. But I don't know of any English form of the word: the old usage of Pasch or Pace as at the time of Bede just fell into disuse. We do have the use of the word Paschal, of course.
English had its own development through Anglo-Saxon and Germanic influences, and somehow we have settled upon Lent and Easter. I don't think anyone is worshipping Eostre any longer, anymore than they worship Thor on a Thursday, Janus in January or Julius Caesar in July. Easter now means one thing: the Christian Festival of the Resurrection.
Saying Easter is a bit like saying Christmas rather than Nativity, as in Natividad, Natale, Noel in other languages.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Papouli
Apprentice
# 17209
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Posted
Sometimes it does seem we are celebrating a different feast! I get the impression most Western Christians look at Holy Week, and specifically Holy Friday, as very mournful and somber. To us, all of it leads up the greatest feast, the Queen of Feasts, so it is very exciting, happy and triumphant!
Most of the older clergy here in America who immigrated from Greece or Asia Minor, will use the Western terms for the Church, as they were more focused on avoiding persecution from the Americans, than cleaving to the 2000 years of tradition. Things have really changed, thank God, in the last 50 years!
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Pardon me, but I have a quick question/observation for Ship's ELCA Lutherans:
Did you notice that the Augstress materials for this summer included John the Baptist as the primary option for June 24, but then forcibly moved Mary Magdalene to yesterday? What gives? The festivals are of the same grade, and they both should have usurped the green Sundays. This is nothing new; the exact same was true for both festivals at least since the publication of LBW. I can remember many years past when we have had both JTB and MM on Sundays.
[ 24. July 2012, 18:06: Message edited by: Martin L ]
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Pardon me, but I have a quick question/observation for Ship's ELCA Lutherans:
Did you notice that the Augstress materials for this summer included John the Baptist as the primary option for June 24, but then forcibly moved Mary Magdalene to yesterday? What gives? The festivals are of the same grade, and they both should have usurped the green Sundays. This is nothing new; the exact same was true for both festivals at least since the publication of LBW. I can remember many years past when we have had both JTB and MM on Sundays.
It sounds as if there is some Roman influence there, possibly for ecumenical reasons? For us the Nativity of St. John Baptist is a solemnity (a.k.a. first class feast for those following the EF), and thus supercedes a green Sunday. However, St. Mary Magdalene is a (second class) feast and thus would not pre-empt the Sunday.
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Pardon me, but I have a quick question/observation for Ship's ELCA Lutherans:
Did you notice that the Augstress materials for this summer included John the Baptist as the primary option for June 24, but then forcibly moved Mary Magdalene to yesterday? What gives? The festivals are of the same grade, and they both should have usurped the green Sundays. This is nothing new; the exact same was true for both festivals at least since the publication of LBW. I can remember many years past when we have had both JTB and MM on Sundays.
In Canada, the Nativity of John the Baptist is one of the few feasts that pre-empt a Green Sunday. I suspect that that is because St John the Baptist is perceived by some to be a national saint.
The official rationale for not celebrating saints on Sunday is that every Sunday is by definition a Feast of Our Lord, therefore the Second Person of the Trinity is thus more important than any of the saints. Except when the Saint is the patron of a parish, Saints' days typically should not be celebrated on a Sunday.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
It sounds as if there is some Roman influence there, possibly for ecumenical reasons? For us the Nativity of St. John Baptist is a solemnity (a.k.a. first class feast for those following the EF), and thus supercedes a green Sunday. However, St. Mary Magdalene is a (second class) feast and thus would not pre-empt the Sunday.
That is a thought I had entertained. It is surprisingly inconsistent with past actions, but I suspect you are correct.
We have a fairly simple calendar (a few examples given below):
Principal Festivals (the usuals...Christmas, Ascension, etc.)
Lesser Festivals (John the Baptist, Mary Mag, Mary, etc.)
Commemorations (Patrick, Bonhoeffer, John XXIII)
What seems to be happening is the separation of the Lesser Festivals category into something perhaps like First and Second Class Feasts. Lutheran sensibilities would steer away from overcomplicating things with many different classes, but we have essentially been dealing with this for decades. The conventional denominational wisdom has been:
If a Lesser Festival falls in a "green" season, it supercedes the Sunday (at church discretion). With Lesser Festivals falling in non-green seasons, it depends. Some supercede the Sunday (Name of Jesus-Jan. 1, for instance). Others (Andrew, when coinciding with Advent 1, for instance) do not.
Reformation and All Saints enjoy almost universal use, being transferred to last Sun. of October and first Sun. of November, respectively.
I realize that Catholics and Anglicans less frequently allow feasts to supercede a Sunday, but for us Lutherans, who rarely celebrate on weekdays, it makes a little more sense to observe when there is a coincidence.
I doubt it will ever happen that we will divide out the Lesser Festivals into First and Second Class (or whatever cutesy names we can come up with to make matters even more confusing), but it would sure be easier if we did.
[ 24. July 2012, 19:56: Message edited by: Martin L ]
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
True, but among the saints, St. John the Baptist has traditionally been considered second only to Our Lady, and as the Holy Forerunner (and cousin to) Our Lord, an integral part of the early earthly life of Our Savior. That is why the Nativity of St. John is considered important enough to trump an ordinary Sunday.
He is the only human than Our Lord and Our Lady, whose nativity is celebrated, rather than the "heavenly birthday," usually the date of death, as with done with other saints. This is related to the tradition that St. John did not sin, having been hallowed in his mother's womb at the Visitation. The Church has never taught John's sinlessness as dogma, but has always placed the Forerunner second to Our Lady, such as in the Confiteor, the litany of saints and many other liturgical prayers, even ahead of Sts. Joseph, Peter and Paul, John the Apostle, etc.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Pardon me, but I have a quick question/observation for Ship's ELCA Lutherans:
Did you notice that the Augstress materials for this summer included John the Baptist as the primary option for June 24, but then forcibly moved Mary Magdalene to yesterday? What gives? The festivals are of the same grade, and they both should have usurped the green Sundays. This is nothing new; the exact same was true for both festivals at least since the publication of LBW. I can remember many years past when we have had both JTB and MM on Sundays.
In Canada, the Nativity of John the Baptist is one of the few feasts that pre-empt a Green Sunday. I suspect that that is because St John the Baptist is perceived by some to be a national saint.
In the Middle Ages, the birthday of john Baptist was a major feast that always trumped a Sunday. As Midsummer Day there was a lot of play on the idea of John decreasing and Jesus increased.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
In the old BCP Calendar, the Nativty of St John Baptist was a Red Letter Day and trumped a Lesser Sunday. SMM was Black Letter and therefore was not observed if it fell on a Sunday, but in the BCPs revised between WW2 and 1965 there is a marked rise in the status of St Mary Magdalen's feast. I think South Africa (1954) and Canada (1959) both make her day Red Letter, but I do not have either BCP close enough to check.
The Lutheran Calendars still seem to work the old way - Greater Sundays, Greater Holydays, Lesser Sundays, Lesser Holydays - so there is still a chance of something interesting happening on a Sunday instead of the big Green.
PD
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
In the old BCP Calendar, the Nativty of St John Baptist was a Red Letter Day and trumped a Lesser Sunday. SMM was Black Letter and therefore was not observed if it fell on a Sunday, but in the BCPs revised between WW2 and 1965 there is a marked rise in the status of St Mary Magdalen's feast. I think South Africa (1954) and Canada (1959) both make her day Red Letter, but I do not have either BCP close enough to check.
If by "old BCP," you mean the 1928 BCP in the USA, SMM was not included at all in that book. She was in Lesser Feasts and Fasts, so I am guessing that is what you meant when you said it was a black-letter feast. Many parishes did not use LFF, and so the appearance of her feast in the trial use books and kalendars and ultimately in the 1979 BCP was, to them, a new feast. In the Anglican Missal she was a second class feast.
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Question about the Three James?
Today is the Feast of St James the Greater. Why exactly is the other St James (Son of Alphaeus) associated with St Philip on May 1st as a Feast Day?
As well, when did James of Jerusalem, (James, the Brother of Our Lord) receive his Feast Day?
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Question about the Three James?
Today is the Feast of St James the Greater. Why exactly is the other St James (Son of Alphaeus) associated with St Philip on May 1st as a Feast Day?
As well, when did James of Jerusalem, (James, the Brother of Our Lord) receive his Feast Day?
There are different traditions concerning that. Some, including the RCC, consider them two different James, others three. Traditionally St. James the Lesser, whose feast is in May, is the brother (cousin) of Our Lord. What I do not know is how TEC decided to change traditions, after nearly 200 years with two St. James, went with the third in the 1970s.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
The third James appears in the 1963 LFF so far as the USA is concerned.
PD
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
If by "old BCP," you mean the 1928 BCP in the USA,
Bearing in mind PD's pedigree, isn't it likely that by "old BCP" he meant the 1662 version of the same?
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Today is the Feast of St James the Greater. Why exactly is the other St James (Son of Alphaeus) associated with St Philip on May 1st as a Feast Day?
I remember reading, probably via the Catholic Encyclopedia, that SS Philip and James ended up on the same day for some historical reason - their churches in Rome were combined or something. I don't think that there is any particular theology behind it.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
If by "old BCP," you mean the 1928 BCP in the USA,
Bearing in mind PD's pedigree, isn't it likely that by "old BCP" he meant the 1662 version of the same?
I tend to default to the English 1662, which was the book of my Yoof, though I was probably as well up on the ASB Calendar at one stage.
PD
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
I trust this won't require its own thread...
Currently I'm the only person who cleans our thurible, in part because it involves using acetone.
I've had several of our thurifers, who are all volunteers (I'm on staff), ask if they can help with the cleaning, and I'm trying to figure out if that can be done. Most of the logistics are nothing any of you can help with, obviously, because they have to do with our space & resources.
But here's what I wanted to ask:
I can never get to the thurible right after use. I usually clean it on Saturdays (when I can; not every time it's used, sadly), when the resin's all hardened. I spray acetone on it and use a soft toothbrush and dish soap to remove all the gunk.
If you get to it immediately after use, what's the best way to clean it? Would the acetone still be necessary, or is there a less toxic way available while the thurible is still hot? Our thurible is silver-plated, FWIW.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
That's very helpful, Ceremoniar. Thank you for sharing it.
There are also things that can be done to prevent the solidified resin buildup in the first place, although in churches where there is a deeply-ingrained sacristy culture of incense excess, some of them may prove difficult to implement.
The build-up is a combination of three things: too high a temperature in the censer, too much incens added to the censer, and too infrequent cleaning of the censer.
Unless you're in a church the size of Westminster Abbey, six pieces of charcoal is quite unnecessary and most excessive. My church is small and even two pieces is unnecessary. For Anglo-Catholics, the use of incense has long been a badge of identity, and this often fosters a temptation to create as much smoke as possible. I have not noticed the same thing in Orthodox or Catholic churches (apart perhaps from among ex-Anglo-Catholic converts).
When the censer gets too hot because too much charcoal has been used, the molten incense boils. If too much incense is used,it spreads and sticks to the interior surface of the censer. If this is not mucked out immediately after each censing, it solidifies and adds to the layer of gunk.
For indoors, at my parish, we use one piece of charcoal with three or four grains of I cence placed on top. This is more than enough for a great censing, and the charcoal will last until next time it is needed. When the charcoal needs to be replaced, all of the previous contents are emptied from the censer, and anything caked on is scraped out with an old teaspoon before the new charcoal is added. We never get the sort of build-up commonly seen in censers.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
I trust this won't require its own thread...
Currently I'm the only person who cleans our thurible, in part because it involves using acetone.
I've had several of our thurifers, who are all volunteers (I'm on staff), ask if they can help with the cleaning, and I'm trying to figure out if that can be done. Most of the logistics are nothing any of you can help with, obviously, because they have to do with our space & resources.
But here's what I wanted to ask:
I can never get to the thurible right after use. I usually clean it on Saturdays (when I can; not every time it's used, sadly), when the resin's all hardened. I spray acetone on it and use a soft toothbrush and dish soap to remove all the gunk.
If you get to it immediately after use, what's the best way to clean it? Would the acetone still be necessary, or is there a less toxic way available while the thurible is still hot? Our thurible is silver-plated, FWIW.
We use Mineral Spirits which are less volatile than Acetone and less dangerous to breathe I think. But we will look into the linked suggestions - thanks.
edited to correct a slip of the finger.
[ 29. July 2012, 19:51: Message edited by: Comper's Child ]
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
Unless you're in a church the size of Westminster Abbey, six pieces of charcoal is quite unnecessary and most excessive.
I disagree. Six should be the upper limit of normal, the lower limit being four. For outdoor processions, we have a thurible (nicknamed 'Balthazar', for obvious reasons) that holds 16 briquettes comfortably. It is truly magnificent to behold in action and I have pushed for it to be used more frequently. In fact, I think I shall specify in my will that it should be used at my Requiem (Missae pro defunctis being notoriously light on smoke in the Western Rite).
As to the original question, I strongly suggest lining the interior of the thurible's bowl so that the charcoal never comes into contact with metal. I was taught to use cheap incense for this purpose, but that is rather naughty and sand works just as well.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
We used to use the sort of foil cases that mince pies come in.
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
As to the original question, I strongly suggest lining the interior of the thurible's bowl so that the charcoal never comes into contact with metal. I was taught to use cheap incense for this purpose, but that is rather naughty and sand works just as well.
I've seen aluminum foil used for that, and I've used it that way in a standing censer. Does nothing to prevent the build-up caused by the smoke - inside the top of the thurible (and extending out to the outside of it too, wherever the smoke escapes). Michael Astley, would your method also prevent the build-up from smoke? Does that have to do with the incense boiling? (BTW, I use a small, ceramic potpourri-type burner - i.e., a candle underneath instead of charcoal - at home to burn resin incense virtually smokelessly, so I've seen boiling incense. It's easy to clean - I just have to wipe it out when it's still hot.)
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
I was taught to use a catering-style blow-torch. The congealed resin burns rather well and then, when it burns out, what is left can be wiped away while still hot.
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
Boat Boy, that method also sounds like the most fun. We're going to try it. (We being the vergers, first. If we're happy with the results and the safety, we'll pass the [fire-breathing] baton.)
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
If only Boat Boy's church had not dispatched the parish dragon for misguided budgetary reasons, then he would not have to fiddle about with a blowtorch.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
A friend of mine just came back from Germany and observed a liturgical practice I'd never heard. I was wondering if anyone here had. As he went in to a church for Mass, there was bread set out in the entrance way. Everyone took a piece and ate it before going to there pew. This was in a Catholic Church. Friend's German is good but not great, so he may have missed some explanation of this. What was going on?
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Is he sure they ate it? When I went to a Catholic church in Berlin, they had the bread there at the back, but instead of eating it one used a spoon to put a wafer in the ciborium if he intended to take communion.
[ 31. July 2012, 15:38: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Adam.
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That was my first assumption, but apparently it was normal bread (not hosts) and they ate it.
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Zach82
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Did the priest of that parish make a habit of terribly long sermons? Maybe the congregants needed to fortify themselves first. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Forthview
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I have never come across such a thing in Germany though it is common practice for people intending to go to Communion to put an unconsecrated Host into a ciborium which is then brought ujp to the altar at the timwe of the Offertory.(It happens occasionally in the UK)
Was your friend a Catholic who would notice the details about Host/ordinary bread ? If he/she were not Catholic it is easily possible that he didn't really understand.It's also possible that the people who ate the bread were not Catholics and were not sure of what to do.
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Is he sure they ate it? When I went to a Catholic church in Berlin, they had the bread there at the back, but instead of eating it one used a spoon to put a wafer in the ciborium if he intended to take communion.
We used to do that at St./ Aidan's Leeds so as to know how many communicants there would be (it changed from a non-communicating high mass to the parish mass so it was a new idea.)
Trouble is - some teenagers used to shovel loads of hosts and there was lots left over.
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
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quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
A friend of mine just came back from Germany and observed a liturgical practice I'd never heard. I was wondering if anyone here had. As he went in to a church for Mass, there was bread set out in the entrance way. Everyone took a piece and ate it before going to there pew. This was in a Catholic Church. Friend's German is good but not great, so he may have missed some explanation of this. What was going on?
Did you ask your friend what kind of bread (regular bread or hosts) was used for Communion?
Is your friend also Catholic?
How big a piece did people take and eat? (Bite-size? Was it pre-sliced?)
How big was the church? Was it one likely to get visitors?
I can toss out some wild hypotheses, just to get them out of the way ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) -
Maybe it was a sample of the Communion bread so everyone would know if it met their culinary standards. This is important to foodies.
Or maybe it was the left-over Consecrated Bread from a previous service, and this is how that congregation consumes it? (Which would surely be a practice frowned upon by the Church!)
An appetizer of sorts? If people have been fasting before Mass, a little bite of bread might make them feel physical hunger for Communion when it comes. Or just the opposite - if people would be receiving a (consecrated) wafer (i.e., not much bread to absorb wine) at Communion, maybe a bite of bread before the service could take the edge off an acidic stomach before they receive the wine.
Maybe it comes from some local non-liturgical practice? Some kind of welcome?
If it was the same bread used at Communion, it could also be there so that non-Catholics and others who shouldn't be receiving Communion won't feel left out or come forward out of curiosity.
Or it's like samples at a bakery, meant to make you want to buy the product.
Or a confusion of Jewish and Orthodox Christian practices of offering bread at the end of a service/after a service to anyone who wants it?
OK, I'll stop now.
Whatever it was, it seems like it would dilute the symbol of the Eucharist in all sorts of ways. I'm really curious to learn if you find out what the practice was!
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Adam.
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Friend is Catholic, but not a liturgy geek. I'm not sure if it was pre-sliced or not. His guess was one of yours, churchgeek: that it was a misunderstanding of the antidoron. Mine was another of yours: that it was the 'fat Tuesday' before the 1 hour communion fast (mark the start of your fast with 'feasting': 'feasting' appropriately scaled down for such a minor fast!)
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dj_ordinaire
Host
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It wasn't a German Lammas Day was it?
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dj_ordinaire
Host
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It wasn't a German Lammas Day was it?
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
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quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Friend is... not a liturgy geek.
Oh well. It takes all sorts, I suppose.
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Adam.
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Friend is... not a liturgy geek.
Oh well. It takes all sorts, I suppose.
Yes, I'm very ecumenical.
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Emendator Liturgia
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I think South Africa (1954) and Canada (1959) both make her day Red Letter, but I do not have either BCP close enough to check.
Anglican Church of Australia has Mary Mag. as a red letter day in both 'A Prayer Book for Australia' (1995) and its predecessor 'An Australian Prayer Book' (1978).
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chukovsky
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Baby Spouse is to be baptised soon and the vicar (CofE) asked if we want to include a prayer of thanksgiving for his adoption. He says there is a full service for this and he'll extract a prayer from that. We would like to quickly check it is PC enough for us (there are some things that those outside the adoption community say, quite unconsciously and with the best of intentions, which are not messages we wish to convey).
Is he thinking of the Thanksgiving for the Gift of a Child which I can see on the Common Worship website, or is there something more specific? In the Thanksgiving service some parts are more appropriate than others, but I know he wouldn't use the whole service.
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Anselmina
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You mean this?
Yes, that would probably be it - unless he has some other material of his own. This service is meant to cover thanksgiving for adoptions as well. I've used it myself for that purpose, as well as thanksgiving after the birth of a child.
You might like to ask him which part he's going to use, though I suppose the prayer of thanksgiving is the likely candidate. If you have any doubts, chukovksy, I'm sure he'd understand your wanting to know what's going to be said.
Congratulations! And I hope you have a fabulous day!
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
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Thanks, yes that is what I mean! We are really looking forward to it (wedding dress has already been refashioned).
Baby Spouse is young enough that the "new life" phrasing is appropriate to him (perhaps if he was Little Boy Spouse aged 8 it wouldn't be) but there are other prayers that don't include that wording, in that liturgy.
I'll check what he was planning to use.
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