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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Random Liturgical Questions (answers on a postcard, please)
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21stcenturyAnglican
Apprentice
# 17197
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Posted
Does anyone have any opinions about various Ecclesiastical Suppliers? I'm specifically wondering about C. M. Almy, Wipples, R. J. Toomey, Gaspard, and House of Hansen. I'm particularly interested in anyone's experience with their cassocks.
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If you want, check out the blog of an Anglican Seminarian.
http://21stcenturyanglican.wordpress.com/
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Finally, one I can answer!
I have ordered several items from both Gaspard and CM Almy. I have been impressed with the customer service at both, and also with the quality of the items I purchased. I thought they were fairly priced.
I own a Gaspard cassock which I purchased used on eBay. It is an Anglican-style, and is the cheapest fabric option they have. I think that it's perfect for an entry-level cassock, and I expect it to last for quite a while. It seems to be well made, and since it won't be washed often it shouldn't fade much. But Woolite Dark should take care of any fading that does occur. If I were shopping for another, that's the one I'd get. Except now I'm kind of thinking a wool one might be better. But I'm a natural fibers nut, anyway.
Hope this helps.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Pseudonym
Apprentice
# 16879
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Posted
I'm sure I've missed this somewhere on this site..
I'm trying to put together a kind of primer on the Daily Office (BCP 1979) for some of my friends. They come from a more Evangelical background, so I like to point out, when things come from Scripture, where they come from. So we start "O God make speed to save us; O Lord make haste to help us." Obviously this comes from the Psalms. My question is: why do we say this? What is the theological significance of opening the Office with a plea for God to hurry up and help?
Posts: 9 | From: NYC | Registered: Jan 2012
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Because that's what St Benedict told us to say. "Come and help" isn't the same as "hurry up", surely? There's a good protestant point to made surely about only worshiping God if God gives us grace to do so.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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jlav12
Apprentice
# 17148
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Posted
How different are the various editions of Lesser Feasts and Fasts? I wanted to acquire my own copy of it but couldn't find the most recent version for any decent price but I found a 1997 LF&F for practically nothing at a used bookshop.
Posts: 34 | From: Albany, New York | Registered: Jun 2012
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlav12:
How different are the various editions of Lesser Feasts and Fasts? I wanted to acquire my own copy of it but couldn't find the most recent version for any decent price but I found a 1997 LF&F for practically nothing at a used bookshop.
Not sure when the Daily Office Lectionary got added, but if that's in your 1997 LFF, you're fairly up to date with the 2006, which is the latest LFF. You're missing just a few observances.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Not sure when the Daily Office Lectionary got added, but if that's in your 1997 LFF, you're fairly up to date with the 2006, which is the latest LFF. You're missing just a few observances.
Correction: I meant Weekday Eucharistic Lectionary. Sorry for the error.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pseudonym:
I'm sure I've missed this somewhere on this site..
I'm trying to put together a kind of primer on the Daily Office (BCP 1979) for some of my friends. They come from a more Evangelical background, so I like to point out, when things come from Scripture, where they come from. So we start "O God make speed to save us; O Lord make haste to help us." Obviously this comes from the Psalms. My question is: why do we say this? What is the theological significance of opening the Office with a plea for God to hurry up and help?
In addition to what venbede said, it seems like an invocation that reminds us of our constant need for God's help.
I have to add that it's kinda fun sometimes when I'm "leading" Evening Prayer in a little side chapel at the cathedral on Saturdays, and no one else comes, and there are tourists around, to open with a nice, loud voice... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Because that's what St Benedict told us to say. "Come and help" isn't the same as "hurry up", surely? There's a good protestant point to made surely about only worshiping God if God gives us grace to do so.
Precisely!
There's something very humbling about reminding ourselves as we begin prayer that not even this we can do without the help of God.
A similar sentiment is expressed in the Byzantine Zadostoinik at the Liturgy on Christmas Day, where we poetically express a desire to compose harmonious hymns to honour the Mother of God, yet, acknowledging the difficulty of this, within the very hymn, we ask her to pray for us "that we may fulfil our good intent".
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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jlav12
Apprentice
# 17148
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Posted
My priest (TEC) breaks the bread in the "old" position in the Words of Institution and in the "new" place, at the Fraction. Is this breaking the rubrics?
Posts: 34 | From: Albany, New York | Registered: Jun 2012
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlav12:
My priest (TEC) breaks the bread in the "old" position in the Words of Institution and in the "new" place, at the Fraction. Is this breaking the rubrics?
Yes, but I do that too. It is a result of using both the old and new liturgies at various times in my career. I got confused! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Can anyone point to a nice downloadable Angelus / Regina Caeli card which could be framed and put near a statue?
A4 or so size
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In any case, those who use 'real' bread, break it (the bread, not the rubrics) continually when giving communion.
Not necessarily. For small congregations (less than 30 say), I tend to break the bread into the right number of pieces during the Agnus Dei (or prayer of humble access if no Agnus). For larger ones, I tend to return to the Table after dismissing a row of communicants to break more bread before the next lot arrive.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pseudonym:
I'm sure I've missed this somewhere on this site..
I'm trying to put together a kind of primer on the Daily Office (BCP 1979) for some of my friends. They come from a more Evangelical background, so I like to point out, when things come from Scripture, where they come from. So we start "O God make speed to save us; O Lord make haste to help us." Obviously this comes from the Psalms.
I gather you know the Scriptural derivation, so let me expand on the basic verses:
Psalm 51:15 “O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise”;
Psalm 106:47 “Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the heathen, to give thanks
unto thy holy name, and to triumph in thy praise”;
Psalm 22:19 “But be not thou far from me, O
LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me”;
Psalm 38:22 “Make haste to help me, O Lord my
salvation”;
Psalm 40:13 “Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me”;
and finally,
Psalm 70:1 “Make haste, O God, to deliver me; make haste to help me, O LORD.”
Hope this, along with the other inputs, helps you in developing your primer. I don't know whether it is available in any form still, but the old "Tutorial Prayer Book" is a must have for explaining the BCP (1662).
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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Pseudonym
Apprentice
# 16879
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Because that's what St Benedict told us to say. "Come and help" isn't the same as "hurry up", surely? There's a good protestant point to made surely about only worshiping God if God gives us grace to do so.
Precisely!
There's something very humbling about reminding ourselves as we begin prayer that not even this we can do without the help of God.
This. Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!
Posts: 9 | From: NYC | Registered: Jan 2012
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pseudonym:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Because that's what St Benedict told us to say. "Come and help" isn't the same as "hurry up", surely? There's a good protestant point to made surely about only worshiping God if God gives us grace to do so.
Precisely!
There's something very humbling about reminding ourselves as we begin prayer that not even this we can do without the help of God.
This. Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!
You're very welcome.
As it happens, the day after posting, I was listening to Ancient Faith Radio, and one of the pauses in the music was filled with this reading, from an address by Metropolitan Kallistos of Diokleia:
quote:
Prayer is God — it is not something that I initiate but something in which I share; it is not primarily something that I do but something that God is doing in me: in St Paul’s phrase, ‘not I, but Christ in me’(Gal. 2:20). The path of inner prayer is exactly indicated in St John the Baptist’s words about the Messiah: ‘He must increase, but I must decrease’(John 3:30). It is in this sense that to pray is to be silent. ‘You yourself must be silent; let the prayer speak’ — more precisely, let God speak. True inner prayer is to stop talking and to listen to the wordless voice of God within our heart; it is to cease doing things on our own, and to enter into the action of God. At the beginning of the Byzantine Liturgy, when the preliminary preparations are completed and all is now ready for the start of the Eucharist itself, the deacon approaches the priest and says: ‘It is time for the Lord to act.’ Such exactly is the attitude of the worshipper not only at the Eucharistic Liturgy but in all prayer, public or private.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
A question about the procession into mass please.
As far as I have experienced the modern Catholic ritual often includes the cross, incense and the book of Gospels being carried in at Mass.
Firast question - can other things also join the procession? For example sacred vessels, book of readings...
Second question - is there a restriction on who can carry these objects in, or more particularly, are any of the objects restricted to the hands of the ordained?
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
The items carried in a full procession are necessarily limited, otherwise it just becomes a "load of stuff".
The Gospels should only be carried in if the Gospeller is someone other than the celebrant, and it would be a person in orders.
I suppose, really, it's only the Gospel book which would be carried in, because the rest of the objects are specifically for the procession. It's not really a "procession of stuff" - it's a procession of people, signified by the stuff.
I'm not entirely at ease with the Gospels being carried in, as it's a second icon of the Lord, after the processional cross. And I think, strictly, the cross shouldn't be used if there is a procession at the Gospel for the same reason.
On the other hand, servers like carrying stuff about.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
In a true procession, any number of banners (loosely understood, in some parts of the world they are not made of wood), torches, statues and ikons may be carried. Normally, however, there is a clear focal point — e.g. the MBS (which, of course, must always be carried by a priest and even then not with his bare hands) or a processional statue. At a simple entrance, cross, lights, and gospel book are more than enough.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
Couldn't the Missal be carried in procession if there were a bishop in procession? Maybe only if it's the local ordinary?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Paragraph 120 of the GIRM explains how the entrance procession should work. The order is as follows: incense, cross and candles, other ministers, lector, deacon and priest. Built of Living Stones (2000 USCCB document) allows the use of processional banners, presumably held by the 'other ministers.' It's never quite clear to me who these are. I know some parishes put their EMHCs here. The DMC allows children to join the entrance procession, presumably with the other ministers.
The lector follows, carrying the book of Gospels if there is no deacon, holding it "slightly elevated." The lectionary should not be carried.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
What is the DMC please? Is the suggestion children join the procession simply that children join the procession - or do they do something / go somewhere.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Directory for Masses with Children.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Certainly it must be okay for someone to carry the missal in the Palm Sunday procession. Expecting the priest standing at his presider's chair to read the Opening Prayer from a missal that is still lying all the way outside is just absolutely unacceptable.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Should the Gospel Book be carried OUT at the end of mass?
I don't know what the GIRM says, but my understanding is that the 'procession' out is simply a utilitarian way for all the ministers to leave... hence it is done as simply as possible consistent with reverence. Nothing should be carried ceremonially.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Certainly it must be okay for someone to carry the missal in the Palm Sunday procession. Expecting the priest standing at his presider's chair to read the Opening Prayer from a missal that is still lying all the way outside is just absolutely unacceptable.
Yes, of course, the missal can be carried whenever there are opening rites before the procession.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Should the Gospel Book be carried OUT at the end of mass?
I don't know what the GIRM says, but my understanding is that the 'procession' out is simply a utilitarian way for all the ministers to leave... hence it is done as simply as possible consistent with reverence. Nothing should be carried ceremonially.
It's actually not terribly clear, but I've never seen it. The CB says that on reaching the sacristy, the ministers lay aside the articles they have used in the celebration. Presumably, this means cross and candles. The GIRM calls for the acolyte to leave in procession (193) but never calls for the lector to do so (cf. 194-8). Given that the lector would be the logical person to carry the book of gospels, I guess that's why it's not normally carried. Besides, it has already been set aside.
The IOM says that communion ministers can be in the exit procession if they are taking communion to the homebound. I've never seen this done, but I like the idea.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Just as a matter of interest what should happen to the Gospel book after the gospel? It got left on the altar where I used to be, but that was not a very pedantic place. Shouldn't the altar be left clear until the offertory? (Not that it is in most Anglican joints.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
There are a variety of options. In most places I know, it just stays on the ambo. The BLS suggest providing a place for the permanent display of the scriptures in the sanctuary area. As far as I recall, I've only seen this once in a church where the ambo had a space in the front where the book could be displayed after it had been read. The GIRM says that the book may be put on the credence table at this point. The only times I've ever seen that is when the book has been carried to the chair for the bishop to kiss.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Just as a matter of interest what should happen to the Gospel book after the gospel? It got left on the altar where I used to be, but that was not a very pedantic place. Shouldn't the altar be left clear until the offertory? (Not that it is in most Anglican joints.)
Carried by the subdeacon to the celebrant to kiss, then given to the MC, who gives it to an acolyte to place on the credence table (in our case, propped against the east wall). The book should be placed so that it does not have its back (spine) to the Blessed Sacrament.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
The book should be placed so that it does not have its back (spine) to the Blessed Sacrament.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
The book should be placed so that it does not have its back (spine) to the Blessed Sacrament.
So the Gospel book goes on the credence table, behind the Gospel-side candle, leaning against the wall with its spine to the right so the book doesn't "have its back to the tabernacle" (which just above the middle of the altar).
That was one of those rules that wasn't known until it was done wrong. Not necessarily a universal liturgical rule.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
And the back of the book towards the front?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
And the back of the book towards the front?
Right, although it's got an ornate silver cover, so the back looks as good as the front.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Just as a matter of interest what should happen to the Gospel book after the gospel? It got left on the altar where I used to be, but that was not a very pedantic place. Shouldn't the altar be left clear until the offertory? (Not that it is in most Anglican joints.)
Carried by the subdeacon to the celebrant to kiss, then given to the MC, who gives it to an acolyte to place on the credence table (in our case, propped against the east wall). The book should be placed so that it does not have its back (spine) to the Blessed Sacrament.
According to whom?
(Not that I'm dismissing what you're saying, I'm just wondering what kind of claim you're making: is this what you like, what your parish does, what some ritual book stipulates, etc.?)
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
According to whom?
(Not that I'm dismissing what you're saying, I'm just wondering what kind of claim you're making: is this what you like, what your parish does, what some ritual book stipulates, etc.?)
It's what we do, based on a celebrant whose rule about this became known gradually as we did this wrong (putting the book with spine toward the altar). I still haven't heard the rule taught in so many words and with clarity, and now that we're in a transition period, it might change.
My personal take on it: It's a bit much, but the advantage, if people know about it, is that it's a definite way to do it, and I think that's often valuable. I'm not fond of finding out about a rule I didn't know by hearing that someone was annoyed by my doing it wrong.
We do put a lot of emphasis on the Real Presence: genuflexions, avoiding back-to-the-altar at various times, and so on, but having books "face" the altar by having their spine away from it was a new one for me.
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Should the Gospel Book be carried OUT at the end of mass?
Leo, we have instituted this practice with the inference that the Word is being carried out into the world with action matching words. It blends so nicely
- Carry gospel book through congregation to back door
- Say: Go in peace to love and serve the Lord, etc
- Carry book out into the world.
We feel that word and action merge faithfully and meaningfully. Might not work everywhere, of course.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Should the Gospel Book be carried OUT at the end of mass?
Leo, we have instituted this practice with the inference that the Word is being carried out into the world with action matching words. It blends so nicely
- Carry gospel book through congregation to back door
- Say: Go in peace to love and serve the Lord, etc
- Carry book out into the world.
We feel that word and action merge faithfully and meaningfully. Might not work everywhere, of course.
When in Canberra, we go to St Paul's Manuka. As the final hymn is being sung, those in the Sanctuary recess to the back of the church, with the sub-deacon holding the Gospel Book high. As it passes each row, those standing there turn to keep facing it. The dismissal is done from the back of the church, then there is a short procession outside, the final dismissal of those in the Sanctuary is given, the priest returns to greet worshippers, and the remainder proceed to the vestry.
At home, the dismissal is done from the Sanctuary after the final hymn. The choir and those in the sanctuary then recess down the main aisle and outside, the Gospel Book again being held high by the sub-deacon, and the congregation turning towards it as it passes. The procession moves outside, final dismissal and while the priest and deacon (usually the assistant rector) return to the porch to greet people, the remainder process to the vestry.
Slightly different rules in wet weather of course.
Oblatus - did the rector then pull your other leg to keep you balanced? In all my years, i have never heard of ensuring that the spine is turned away from the MBS; indeed it seems to me to be a much better practice to keep the face of the Gospel Book facing outwards rather than to the wall.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
- Carry gospel book through congregation to back door
- Say: Go in peace to love and serve the Lord, etc
- Carry book out into the world.
I have no real problem with the book being carried out, and I certainly applaud the sentiment, but you've hit on one of my bugbears: if you're going to do the dismissal from the door rather than the sanctuary (which can work quite well), shouldn't you say "come" rather than "go"?
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
I have no real problem with the book being carried out, and I certainly applaud the sentiment, but you've hit on one of my bugbears: if you're going to do the dismissal from the door rather than the sanctuary (which can work quite well), shouldn't you say "come" rather than "go"?
We don't say the final dismissal from the sanctuary. During the final hymn the sanctuary party process down the aisle, the congregation folow, we then gather in the Lady Chapel and say the Angelus, THEn we say the final dismissal from the nearby back door. As the people are already gathered together (andf in the same place where we have coffee/fellowship time), the imperative 'Go' is not lost. I take you point if the people are still in their pews some distance from the door, though.
[ 22. August 2012, 00:43: Message edited by: Emendator Liturgia ]
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
When in Canberra, we go to St Paul's Manuka. As the final hymn is being sung, those in the Sanctuary recess to the back of the church, with the sub-deacon holding the Gospel Book high. .
I don't mean to raise the near Dead Horse of whether or not subdeacons exist, but even if they do, why does s/he carry the Gospel book? I would have thought the deacon, as the reader of the Gospel and presumably the one who carries the book in, should carry it out.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
5 months since last there, but my recollection is that it is the sub-deacon who carries it. We still have sub-deacons here (not a Sydney point, an Aust Anglican point).
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
When in Canberra, we go to St Paul's Manuka. As the final hymn is being sung, those in the Sanctuary recess to the back of the church, with the sub-deacon holding the Gospel Book high. .
I don't mean to raise the near Dead Horse of whether or not subdeacons exist, but even if they do, why does s/he carry the Gospel book? I would have thought the deacon, as the reader of the Gospel and presumably the one who carries the book in, should carry it out.
The subdeacon carries the Gospel in the procession before the Mass and it is he who proffers it to be venerated by the priest. He holds it while the Gospel is read. Leaving is just leaving and isn't specificall ceremonial but it would follow that he would carry it out too.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
The subdeacon carries the Gospel in the procession before the Mass and it is he who proffers it to be venerated by the priest. He holds it while the Gospel is read. Leaving is just leaving and isn't specificall ceremonial but it would follow that he would carry it out too.
In our shack, nobody carries the Gospel book in or out: it lies flat on the altar until picked up by the deacon and carried to the sanctuary gate and given to the subdeacon to hold during its proclamation; then the subdeacon takes it to the celebrant to kiss and it's handed off twice to be placed on the credence table. There it stays until cleared by the acolytes during the postlude.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
It got left on the altar where I used to be, but that was not a very pedantic place.
If the altar is not a very pedantic place, which parts ofthe church are?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
The subdeacon carries the Gospel in the procession before the Mass and it is he who proffers it to be venerated by the priest. He holds it while the Gospel is read. Leaving is just leaving and isn't specificall ceremonial but it would follow that he would carry it out too.
In our shack, nobody carries the Gospel book in or out: it lies flat on the altar until picked up by the deacon and carried to the sanctuary gate and given to the subdeacon to hold during its proclamation; then the subdeacon takes it to the celebrant to kiss and it's handed off twice to be placed on the credence table. There it stays until cleared by the acolytes during the postlude.
I'm sorry, Oblatus. I wasn't clear. I was summarising the Sarum rubrics as found in Orthodox practice. Of course, local tradition will vary.
I think the thing to remember is that a subdeacon is just that: an under-deacon. We exist as an extension of the diaconal liturgical ministry. This can be seen in how subdeacons serve in both east and west. In fact, I have seen videos of Episcopal Divine Liturgies in which there were no subdeacons and an overabundance of deacons. The archdeacon/protodeacon plus the two next seniormost deacons concelebrated as deacons after the normal order, while the surplus, more junior deacons did all of the things that I am accustomed to doing as a subdeacon, which is perhaps reflective of ancient practice. For instance, there were two of them attending the bishop, which is usually done by subdeacons in the east, even though this was anciently a diaconal ministry, (and remains so in the west).
While the subdiaconate does go back very far, (St Andeolus was martyred near the beginning of the 3rd century so the subdiaconate must date to some point in the 2nd century at the latest) there seems to be no doubt that it developed as an extension of the diaconal liturgical service, and it continues as such today. It seems not at all out of place, therefore, for the subdeacon to be the one to carry the Gospel Book, even though it is the deacon who reads the Gospel.
[ 22. August 2012, 16:06: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
It got left on the altar where I used to be, but that was not a very pedantic place.
If the altar is not a very pedantic place, which parts ofthe church are?
Ambos in Western churches* are, in my opinion, extremely pedantic, being as they are an attempt to recreated a half-imagined late antique liturgical past rather than accepting tradition as it has organically developed.
*Or should that be 'most' Western churches, I know there are a small minority that have genuine old ambos.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Basilica
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# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
It got left on the altar where I used to be, but that was not a very pedantic place.
If the altar is not a very pedantic place, which parts ofthe church are?
I think venbede meant that where (s)he used to be wasn't a pedantic place, not that the altar specifically was unpedantic.
[ 22. August 2012, 16:58: Message edited by: Basilica ]
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