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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Random Liturgical Questions (answers on a postcard, please)
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Gosh! Who would have guessed?
(Though I've seen some pretty pedantic carvings on or behind the Holy Table in some churches)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
It got left on the altar where I used to be, but that was not a very pedantic place.
If the altar is not a very pedantic place, which parts ofthe church are?
I think venbede meant that where (s)he used to be wasn't a pedantic place, not that the altar specifically was unpedantic.
I rather suspect that ken was indulging in a spot of mid-week pedantry himself, no doubt for his own amusement and ours. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
(Though I've seen some pretty pedantic carvings on or behind the Holy Table in some churches)
Like 'He is not here'?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Thank you basilica. In SoF parlance I was not at a very pedantic shack. Glad to increase the gaiety of the nations.
[ 22. August 2012, 19:52: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
It got left on the altar where I used to be, but that was not a very pedantic place.
If the altar is not a very pedantic place, which parts ofthe church are?
I think venbede meant that where (s)he used to be wasn't a pedantic place, not that the altar specifically was unpedantic.
I rather suspect that ken was indulging in a spot of mid-week pedantry himself, no doubt for his own amusement and ours.
If my sarcasm detector was faulty, it's only because I read venbede's post four times before working it out, and, in my delight at figuring out what he meant, the sin of pride overtook me...
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Does anyone know (under US RC liturgical norms) whether you can say the creed on days in Mass when it's not assigned, just because you like Jesus? More specifically, as part of our observance of the Year of Faith in the seminary I've proposed we start saying the Apostle's Creed in the regular place at our weekday guest Mass. Our director wants me to check that's legit before we roll it out.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
If you are not sure, say the Apostles' Creed outside Mass.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Stranger in a strange land
Shipmate
# 11922
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Does anyone know (under US RC liturgical norms) whether you can say the creed on days in Mass when it's not assigned, just because you like Jesus? More specifically, as part of our observance of the Year of Faith in the seminary I've proposed we start saying the Apostle's Creed in the regular place at our weekday guest Mass. Our director wants me to check that's legit before we roll it out.
The GIRM says a profession of faith is to made on Sundays and solemnities and may be made at 'particular celebrations of a more solemn character'. To my mind that precludes using it at every Mass, to preserve a distinction for the more solemn occasions.
[ 24. August 2012, 12:32: Message edited by: Stranger in a strange land ]
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
Why not do something fun like say it after the dismissal, thus after Mass. Then add an Our Father, Hail Mary, and the Prayer to St. Michael.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I wonder instead if you might say the Apostles Creed directly before Mass -- as a sort of preparatory prayer. Let me also say that I dislike substituting the Apostles Creed for the Nicene within Mass, though interestingly this has been normative in some countries (e.g. Lithuania, IME, where it seems to have been part of the approved liturgy and oft times used at Sunday High Mass at the cathedral in Vilnius). A dogmatic profession of the faith was obviously a relatively late addition to the eucharistic liturgy in the West, and substituting the Apostles Creed for the Nicene symbol just makes one more arguably abberrant innovation. As a preparation before Mass, however, I would find corporate recitation of the Apostles Creed quite salutary.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
When I've been in Italy or Portugal, the daily evening mass is often preceded by the rosary, lead solely by lay women and occasionally laymen. Indeed I came across it at St Anselm's Tooting.
Wouldn't that be a good idea to include the Apostle's Creed?
[ 24. August 2012, 21:20: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Does anyone know (under US RC liturgical norms) whether you can say the creed on days in Mass when it's not assigned, just because you like Jesus? More specifically, as part of our observance of the Year of Faith in the seminary I've proposed we start saying the Apostle's Creed in the regular place at our weekday guest Mass. Our director wants me to check that's legit before we roll it out.
I don't think you can for the reasons Stranger in a strange land gave. What I think you could do is use it as a devotion immediately before or after mass the way they still recite the St. Michael's prayer after mass on EWTN. Another thing you could do is have it form the basis for the Prayers of the Faithful. You could write up a formula that draws intercessions from the text of the Creed and use that formula at the guest mass. It might go something like this:
"That our Almighty Father, maker of Heaven and Eearth, increase our faith. We pray to the Lord...
R. Lord hear our prayer.
That Our Lord Jesus Christ, his only Son, may X, Y and Z. We pray to the Lord....
R. Lord hear our prayer.
Etc., etc..."
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stranger in a strange land:
The GIRM says a profession of faith is to made on Sundays and solemnities and may be made at 'particular celebrations of a more solemn character'. To my mind that precludes using it at every Mass, to preserve a distinction for the more solemn occasions.
GIRM 68... thank you! I don't know how I missed that when I was looking through. I think that would probably justify us using it at our once a week midweek guest mass, but not the rest of the week.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
What is special about your midweek guest mass? If it's merely having a priest from outside the community say weekday mass, I don't think that qualifies as "particular celebrations of a more solemn character". I think it would have have to be something on the order of marking the end of a special novena, or marking the anniversary of someone's entering the community or making their final vows, or marking the anniversary of a priest's ordination, or a renewal of wedding vows, or things of that nature.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
Or, perhaps, wanting to mark the data of Faith throughout the year the Year of Faith, where the Holy Father has asked for us to reflect on precisely the subject of Faith, Jesus Christ. In such circumstances, I think that IGMR68 would certainly permit that which Hart proposes, particularly in the University setting within which it is proposed.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
Would it be best to mark the solemn character in other ways as well? Like also using chant, incense, etc?
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
Yes.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
What does the MC do in an RC or Anglican service? I'm guessing MC = Master of Ceremonies?
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
What does the MC do in an RC or Anglican service? I'm guessing MC = Master of Ceremonies?
You're right; MC means master of ceremonies. This is a specific role with its own set of tasks and movements, as other roles like thurifer and acolyte and subdeacon have their own.
The MC serves in a solemn Mass, preparing the altar and sanctuary, overseeing the other servers and preparing them for anything different in the Mass about to be celebrated, and then during Mass the MC does specific things like hold the aspersorium (water pail), hold books as the celebrant chants prayers from them, give cues, pass objects from a sacred minister to an acolyte, remind forgetful servers what to do next, solve unexpected problems (Blessed Sacrament dropped/spilled, candle needing relighting, something missing), and be in specific places at specific times in the Mass to do these things.
I know MC brings to mind a guy with a microphone, or a rapper with baggy gold trousers, but the liturgical MC doesn't resemble either of those, at least not during Mass.
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
What does the MC do in an RC or Anglican service? I'm guessing MC = Master of Ceremonies?
"MC" or master of ceremonies, in English, is simply a translation of the Latin
ceremonarius or magister ceremonarius.
I think the duties of the MC are explained briefly in another post.
*
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Are there any formal Vestry Prayers for a sung/solemn celebration of the Divine Office? I am familiar with vestry prayers before Mass, I'm wondering if there are any such prayers for Solemn/Sung Matins or Evensong?
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Are there any formal Vestry Prayers for a sung/solemn celebration of the Divine Office? I am familiar with vestry prayers before Mass, I'm wondering if there are any such prayers for Solemn/Sung Matins or Evensong?
There's the prayers Aperi Domine before the office and Sacrosanctae afterwards, which some parishes use::
quote:
Open, O Lord, our lips to bless Thy holy name: cleanse our hearts from all vain, foolish, and wondering thoughts; enlighten our understanding, enkindle our affections, and grant that we may celebrate this Office with devotion, so that we may be heard in the presence of Thy divine Majesty. Through Christ, our Lord. Amen.
O Lord, in union with that divine intention with which Thou, whilest on earth, didst Thyself praise God, we offer Thee this office.
quote:
Let every creature give unending praise, honor, power and glory, throughout all eternity, unto the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity, to the crucified humanity of our Lord Jesus Christ, to the chaste motherhood of Mary, the ever-glorious and blessed Virgin, and to the entire assembly of the saints; and may we receive the forgiveness of all our sins. Amen.
[ 29. August 2012, 06:52: Message edited by: Edgeman ]
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http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
When I was MC at my last church, I spent of most of the time during mass as a human bookstand, and a long time after mass washing up. (Not complaining.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edgeman:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Are there any formal Vestry Prayers for a sung/solemn celebration of the Divine Office? I am familiar with vestry prayers before Mass, I'm wondering if there are any such prayers for Solemn/Sung Matins or Evensong?
There's the prayers Aperi Domine before the office and Sacrosanctae afterwards, which some parishes use::
quote:
Open, O Lord, our lips to bless Thy holy name: cleanse our hearts from all vain, foolish, and wondering thoughts; enlighten our understanding, enkindle our affections, and grant that we may celebrate this Office with devotion, so that we may be heard in the presence of Thy divine Majesty. Through Christ, our Lord. Amen.
O Lord, in union with that divine intention with which Thou, whilest on earth, didst Thyself praise God, we offer Thee this office.
quote:
Let every creature give unending praise, honor, power and glory, throughout all eternity, unto the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity, to the crucified humanity of our Lord Jesus Christ, to the chaste motherhood of Mary, the ever-glorious and blessed Virgin, and to the entire assembly of the saints; and may we receive the forgiveness of all our sins. Amen.
The second of those prayers is traditionally followed by the following versicle and response:
V: Blessed be the womb of the Virgin Mary which bore the Son of the Eternal Father.
R: And blessed be the breasts which gave suck to Christ our Lord.
I'm surprised that this prayer isn't more widely used, particularly given the cry for more feminine imagery in worship.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
How does the role of MC in the Latin rite compare with that of Clerk as defined by the Parson's Handbook?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I never clicked my fingers. I just smiled despairingly.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I never clicked my fingers. I just smiled despairingly.
...whilst slowly rolling your eyeballs heavenwards, no doubt!
Been there; done that; no tee-shirt
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
The late Canon Edward N West, ceremonarius altissimus of the Cathedral of StJohn the Divine, NYC, who stage-managed and directed/mc'd many a complicated liturgy, carried a field marshal's baton, within which was concealed a high-intensity flashlight. If a participant in liturgy wasn't watching for his cue, he was likely to get 'flashed' as we called it.
It worked quite well.
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
The late Canon Edward N West, ... carried a field marshal's baton ...
It was a field marshal's baton of a sort but made of silver tipped oak, rather more long the lines of a British officer's swagger stick. However the advent of compact electronic, wireless voice communication gear for use within the cathedral spaces spelled the end of the famed baton.
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
How does the role of MC in the Latin rite compare with that of Clerk as defined by the Parson's Handbook?
Well the two offices are not really the same thing, but they could certainly be combined, or more properly, conflated into the same thing. The care and direction of the more elaborate ceremonial of the Roman rites in both Latin and English could certainly be delegated to the parish clerk or the two roles can remain separate.
I think the Parson's Handbook envisions a moderate amount of English catholic ceremonial that could easily come under the care and direction of the parish clerk.
*
[ 01. September 2012, 06:14: Message edited by: Mr. Rob ]
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Are there any formal Vestry Prayers for a sung/solemn celebration of the Divine Office? I am familiar with vestry prayers before Mass, I'm wondering if there are any such prayers for Solemn/Sung Matins or Evensong?
We use this before Evensong:
quote:
O Almighty God, who pourest out on all who desire it the spirit of grace and of supplication: Deliver us, when we draw near to thee, from coldness of heart and wanderings of mind, that with steadfast thoughts and kindled affections we may worship thee in spirit and in truth; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Was the Conception of John the Baptist ever celebrated in the western church? If it was, then why was it dropped?
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Was the Conception of John the Baptist ever celebrated in the western church? If it was, then why was it dropped?
I do not believe that such a feast was ever observed, because St. John was conceived in original sin. Only Our Lord and Our Lady's conceptions, being free from sin, are observed as feasts. The Church has never specifically taught that St. John was sinless, but has come very close to that teaching, in reminding us that he was sanctified in his mother's womb and received singular graces as a result. It has long been understood by any number of theologians that this means that St. John was conceived in original sin, but not born into it. This is why his Nativity is celebrated, unlike other saints. In either event, there would be no feast of his conception, but of his nativity.
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Are there any formal Vestry Prayers for a sung/solemn celebration of the Divine Office? I am familiar with vestry prayers before Mass, I'm wondering if there are any such prayers for Solemn/Sung Matins or Evensong?
We use this before Evensong:
quote:
O Almighty God, who pourest out on all who desire it the spirit of grace and of supplication: Deliver us, when we draw near to thee, from coldness of heart and wanderings of mind, that with steadfast thoughts and kindled affections we may worship thee in spirit and in truth; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
Which are the formal prayers said before Mass? I don't mean the vesting ones. Recently I attended a Mass where the priest said a prayer to Our Lady before mass, but can't find it via google. What comes up is a very long one.
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Mary, a priest??
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Are there any formal Vestry Prayers for a sung/solemn celebration of the Divine Office? I am familiar with vestry prayers before Mass, I'm wondering if there are any such prayers for Solemn/Sung Matins or Evensong?
This post will overlap a bit with what others have written.
First, I don't believe you are going to be able to ape Roman, Latin, formal vestry prayers before the Anglican invention of Evensong or Morning Prayer. The Latin rite has everything starting in the sacristy for the mass, while for the hours of the office, folk just gather in choir. The processional flounce into the church and out again is just the Anglicans making things up. I'm sure folk will rush to correct me, if I'm wrong.
Nought wrong with making stuff up, though. And, Anglicans have been the best at doing so, though we seem to be off our game in the last half-century.
But, to answer your question, consider getting a copy of the The English Office Book. That's where these translations come from. To me, they come off the tongue much better than the ones from the Anglican Breviary.
The Aperi, Domine is not a vestry prayer, but rather one prayed in the place where the office is to be said: quote:
Open thou my mouth O Lord to bless thy holy name; cleanse my heart from all vain, froward, and wandering thoughts; enlighten my understanding, enkindle my affection, that I may say this Office worthily, attentively, and devoutly, and my be counted worthy to be heard in the presence of thy divine majesty. Through Christ, our Lord.
The prayer of St. Gertrude can follow: quote:
O Lord, in union with that divine intention wherewith thou didst offer praise to God on earth, I offer this Service unto thee.
Then can follow the triple prayer: the Our Father, Hail Mary, and Apostles Creed, though these are usually the first thing I say, followed by the Aperi Domine.
After the Marian antiphon after the office, can come the Sacrosanctae: quote:
To the most holy and undivided Trinity, to the Manhood of our crucified Lord, Jesus Christ, to the fruitful virginity of the most blessed and glorious ever-Virgin Mary, and to the whole company of the Saints, be everlasting praise, honor, might, and glory from all things created, and unto us the remission of all our sins, for ever and ever.
One should probably replace "Manhood" with "Humanity".
Finally, after the "blessed the breast that fed" versicle/response, one could conclude with: quote:
O most gracious Jesu, I give thanks to thee with my whole heart. Be merciful to me a most wretched sinner. I offer this act of worship to thy divine Heart, that thou wouldest correct whatever is amiss, and supply whatever is lacking, to the praise and glory of thy most holy Name, and to that of thy most blessed Mother; for the salvation of my soul and for that of all thy holy Church.
I've got all this written in minute type on a card I keep in my BCP/Bible ("The Brick"), though it is now firmly in memory.
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Those prayers are an altered version of the prayers offered by altar servers in the sacristy before Holy Mass. We have them posted in English and Latin. They were not designed for the Office.
Orationes ante Missam Prayers before Mass
Aperi, Dómine, os meum ad benedicéndum nomen sanctum tuum: munda quoque cor meum ab ómnibus vanis, pervérsis et aliénis cogitateónibus; intéllectum illúmine, afféctum inflámma, ut digne, atténte ac devóte hanc Míssam servíre váleam, et mérear exaudíri ante conspéctum divínæ Majestátis tuæ. Per Christum Dóminum nostrum. Amen.
Open, O Lord, my mouth to bless Thy Holy Name: cleanse also my heart from all vain, evil, and wandering thoughts; enlighten my understanding; enkindle my affections; that I may serve this Mass worthily, with attention and devotion, and so may merit to be heard in the presence of thy divine Majesty. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.
Dómine, in unióne illíus divínæ intentiónis, qua ipse in terris laudes Deo persolvísti, hanc tibi Míssam persólvo.
O Lord, in union with that divine intention, wherewith Thou Thyself on earth didst render Thy praises unto God, I desire to offer this Mass unto Thee.
[untangled English and Latin]
[ 04. September 2012, 07:55: Message edited by: seasick ]
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Sorry, but the Latin-English columns did not transfer over to the above post. But you can see by the Latin that the prayer was written to be recited before Mass.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Ceremoniar,
May I commend to you the preview post feature? As a rule of thumb, more 'advanced' formatting features like columns, tables etc. will not work on the Ship's bb software so if you are pasting things like that it's well worth taking a look to see how it's going to turn out. As ever, the UBB practice thread in the Styx is also available to you.
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Sorry, but the Latin-English columns did not transfer over to the above post. But you can see by the Latin that the prayer was written to be recited before Mass.
Are you sure? They were included in all versions of the Roman breviary prior to Vatican II, and the first versions of it we have are connected to books of hours and other devotional offices. It didn't become an (optional) part of the Roman office until much later, (I'm not sure when, at least by Pius V's time it was) but I'm almost certain that the prayer was originally connected with the office, and not the mass.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I associate
'Open thou our lips, O Lord,'
The prayer of St Gertrude, and the
Sacrosanctae
with the beginning and end of the daily Office. They are appointed for that use in the old Breviary, and Father did it that way when I woz a kid - so there!
Printed in some Missals are a series of longish prayers for before Mass by St Ambrose and St Thomas Aquinas, and afterwards by St Alphonsus, which I have always assumed were pious additions, rather than anything enjoined by Authority. Personally I think the Prep. - Ps.43, Confiteor, is quite enough - though at St Hardup's we usually do these in the Sacristy, though when I get the chance I avail myself of the prayer of St Alphonsus after Mass.
PD
[ 04. September 2012, 16:24: Message edited by: PD ]
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I've looked up Percy. Indeed the clerk at a sung service with deacon does what an MC does and may read the epistle as well. S/he is equally at liberty to click fingers if judged appropriate.
MC sounds more show-bizzy, doesn't it?
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I associate
'Open thou our lips, O Lord,'
The prayer of St Gertrude, and the
Sacrosanctae
with the beginning and end of the daily Office. They are appointed for that use in the old Breviary, and Father did it that way when I woz a kid - so there!
Printed in some Missals are a series of longish prayers for before Mass by St Ambrose and St Thomas Aquinas, and afterwards by St Alphonsus, which I have always assumed were pious additions, rather than anything enjoined by Authority. Personally I think the Prep. - Ps.43, Confiteor, is quite enough - though at St Hardup's we usually do these in the Sacristy, though when I get the chance I avail myself of the prayer of St Alphonsus after Mass.
PD
Yes, there was a preparation for mass in the breviary and missal made of psalms and collects and other prayers.I always associated the preparation for mass with these. Interestingly, part of the old preparation was restored in the Roman Missal in 2002 by John Paul II.
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malik3000
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# 11437
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Posted
Getting back momentarily to the Master of Ceremonies, would not that be basically the same role as that of the Verger? (widely used in US Episcopal churches -- don't know about elsewhere)
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Getting back momentarily to the Master of Ceremonies, would not that be basically the same role as that of the Verger? (widely used in US Episcopal churches -- don't know about elsewhere)
That sounds as if you mean something *very* different by a "verger" from what we mean in England.
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Ken
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Getting back momentarily to the Master of Ceremonies, would not that be basically the same role as that of the Verger? (widely used in US Episcopal churches -- don't know about elsewhere)
No, the MC in an Episcopal church is the lead lay eucharistic minister.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Getting back momentarily to the Master of Ceremonies, would not that be basically the same role as that of the Verger? (widely used in US Episcopal churches -- don't know about elsewhere)
No, the MC in an Episcopal church is the lead lay eucharistic minister.
Well, in the sense that the MC kind of comes next after the subdeacon in terms of doing things up at the altar and handing things to the sacred ministers as well as sort of exchanging positions with the subdeacon (in a traditional solmen mass) at a point during the eucharistic canon. I think you'd do best to call the MC the head server in a solemn high mass or a fully staffed missa cantata. The MC also oversees and directs the action, often by a subtle nod of the head, eye contact and raised eyebrows, or less subtle gestures.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
I take your point, but the solemn mass, with deacons and subdeacons, is not what one finds in the hundreds and hundreds of Episcopal churches who just do their level best to have a decent Rite 2 Eucharist.
Eta: At any rate, whatever we call it, it isn't the same thing as a verger (getting back to malik's question).
[ 06. September 2012, 01:41: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I've looked up Percy. Indeed the clerk at a sung service with deacon does what an MC does and may read the epistle as well. S/he is equally at liberty to click fingers if judged appropriate.
MC sounds more show-bizzy, doesn't it?
I mentioned to a non-churchgoing friend I was MCing one Sunday, and she said, "I didn't know you deejayed!"
As I understand the difference in modern Episcopalian usage, the vergers direct all traffic up to the altar rail, and the MC directs all traffic behind the altar rail.
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
That's a good definition of the verger's liturgical role, but outside worship they traditionally functioned as caretakers for the building, as in the old definition: a good verger always minds his keys and pews.... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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