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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Random Liturgical Questions (answers on a postcard, please)
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Edgeman
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# 12867
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Posted
Well, I don't think the phrase offering a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving or offering must be an entirely different offering anyway. As long as I have known this prayer, I have always thought the offering of praise and thanksgiving to be the offering of Christ and his passion, and that's without any instruction. I just read it and thought to be the meaning.
And the second half of that prayer has a corresponding prayer in the Roman canon, one section of which says:
"Remember, O Lord, thy servants and handmaids, and all here present whose faith and devotion are known to thee, on whose behalf we offer to thee, or who themselves offer to thee, this sacrifice of praise"
And indeed, the congregation's response to the priest's bidding before the prayer over the offerings;
"The Lord receive the sacrifice at thy hands, to the praise and glory of his name".
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edgeman:
Well, I don't think the phrase offering a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving or offering must be an entirely different offering anyway. As long as I have known this prayer, I have always thought the offering of praise and thanksgiving to be the offering of Christ and his passion...
Yes, this is how I see it: we thankfully plead Christ's sacrifice and self-oblation, likewise praising God for the infinite grace thereby offered us. The praise and thanksgiving are offered in context of the re-presentation of Christ's sacrifice, made truly - but sacramentally - present in the Mass. The very word, "Eucharist", meaning "thanksgiving", encapsulates this whole notion of the Holy Sacrifice. The BCP language is entirely congruent with the notion.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
Dean Wace, the Evangelical Anglican scholar who was Dean of Canterbury early in the last century critiqued the Gregorian Canon and said that there was nothing in it that conflicted with Evangelical theology. Fr Echlin SJ looking at the American BCP of 1928 said there was nothing in it that conflicted with Roman doctrine, and I have heard pretty similar opinion expressed by scholars on both sides.
The great defect of the English 1662 BCP as written is that by placing Communion in the middle of the Canon Cranmer disassociated the Consecration and the Communion from the Sacrifice. It is a somewhat a Gneiso-Lutheran solution to getting rid of the 'abomination' of the sacrifice of the Mass. This is why even the most moderate of Anglo-Catholics added to the Prayer of Consecration the Prayer of Oblation either silently or aloud depending on preference.
The bulk of the sacrificial furniture of the old Roman Mass lies not in the Canon or even to a large extent in the 'aloud' parts of the Mass but in the Private Prayers of the Celebant (hereafter, PPCs), which are often quite late additions to the text. Now before one runs away with the idea that the Roman doctrine of the Mass was originally weak in its sacrificial aspect, it has to be remembered that in a sense the PPCs provide a running commentary on the Mass. The development and organisation of the PPCs definitely show that there was an attempt to give a liturgical form to the Church's doctrine of the Mass in the 11th to 15th centuries, so that any reasonably devout and literate celebrant would have no doubt what the Mass was about even if he had no better theological education than the 14th C. version of 'The Catholic Priesthood for Dummies.'
In my opinion, any attempt to make the doctrine of the BCP Mass more explicit has to concentrate on what the celebrant says by way of private prayers, and what is taught in the catechism class than on modifying the public liturgy.
PD
[ 05. November 2012, 15:38: Message edited by: PD ]
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The Sainted Percy
Apprentice
# 17388
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Posted
PD et cetera thank you very much - write off the theological botching to the early morning! You expressed it very eloquently indeed - indeed, the 'sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving' can indeed, is very fitting as, Christ in his Passion and sacrifice. Lieutvos (a thousand apologies if I spelled that wrongly) likewise - I really took a very crude look at things. PD - I'm, guilty of reading the whole Mass and then applying that to 'the Canon'. I quite agree after a good day's thought that the Private Prayers and proper catechesis emphasize the sacrificial Mass. The text of the Common Prayer Book, properly arranged, does likewise, and far more elegantly than interpolating the Gelasian Canon, which, as you say, is no more explicit and, after all, Percy Dearmer heavily criticised; and rightly so, such interpolations.
Thank you all,
Percy
PS: Dear me, I sometimes realise how very young I am - a LOT to learn. Or, more accurately, a lot of experience required so I can use what I know properly and not leap in without thinking - the chap who taught me Theology always said I leapt to conclusions...
[ 05. November 2012, 18:13: Message edited by: The Sainted Percy ]
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Basilica
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# 16965
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Posted
I'd like to get hold of the various propers (especially the introit, offertory and communion texts) for the Mass according to the modern Roman rite.
Are these available online? If not, what volumes do I need to buy?
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
Wouldn't you find these in any copy of the Missal ? - for example the Sunday Missal published by Collins which you can probably get from Amazon at a knock down price.
However you will find that the Introit is called the 'Entrance Antiphon',that there is no Offertory and that you have also the 'Communion Antiphon' - that is ,if you are interested in the modern Roman Rite.
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Basilica
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# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Wouldn't you find these in any copy of the Missal ? - for example the Sunday Missal published by Collins which you can probably get from Amazon at a knock down price.
However you will find that the Introit is called the 'Entrance Antiphon',that there is no Offertory and that you have also the 'Communion Antiphon' - that is ,if you are interested in the modern Roman Rite.
Hmm, interesting – I'm definitely familiar with a church that uses all three texts in an Anglican Eucharist. I wonder where they got them from. The English Missal, perhaps?
(The fact that I'm talking from a CoE perspective may have been useful information in my original post: apologies.)
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
The Roman Gradual contains all of these for the Roman rite. The missal includes only the introit and communion antiphons. The Gradual includes offertory and alternate gradual psalms.
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
A "What If" Scenario that came to me while counting sheep last night:
Imagine there was a seminarian in the 1950s or 1960s who was a subdeacon. And then, for whatever reason, it was realized that the priesthood was not for him. What happened to such a person? Would he have been allowed to carry on as a subdeacon, liturgically? Would he just have "poofed" into non-existence when the subdiaconate was suppressed? Surely this must have happened somewhere, somehow.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
I'd like to get hold of the various propers (especially the introit, offertory and communion texts) for the Mass according to the modern Roman rite.
Are these available online? If not, what volumes do I need to buy?
You can find the chants for any given Sunday at Corpus Christi Watershed.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Mama Thomas
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# 10170
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
A "What If" Scenario that came to me while counting sheep last night:
Imagine there was a seminarian in the 1950s or 1960s who was a subdeacon. And then, for whatever reason, it was realized that the priesthood was not for him. What happened to such a person? Would he have been allowed to carry on as a subdeacon, liturgically? Would he just have "poofed" into non-existence when the subdiaconate was suppressed? Surely this must have happened somewhere, somehow.
I have met subdeacons. For some reason i remember them. One, an RC I recall from the 80s, said he was ordained a subdeacon in the 60s. That was that. His wife and kids were also active in their parish. Back then, there were no "high Masses" except in a few retro Anglo-Catholic parishes or SSPX.
There was no liturgical role except perhaps acolyte or reader.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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Edgeman
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# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Wouldn't you find these in any copy of the Missal ? - for example the Sunday Missal published by Collins which you can probably get from Amazon at a knock down price.
However you will find that the Introit is called the 'Entrance Antiphon',that there is no Offertory and that you have also the 'Communion Antiphon' - that is ,if you are interested in the modern Roman Rite.
Well, you can certainly get a missal for the modern Roman rite containing all of these with the same terms- Introit, offertory, and communion-
The Gregorian Missal.
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
A "What If" Scenario that came to me while counting sheep last night:
Imagine there was a seminarian in the 1950s or 1960s who was a subdeacon. And then, for whatever reason, it was realized that the priesthood was not for him. What happened to such a person? Would he have been allowed to carry on as a subdeacon, liturgically? Would he just have "poofed" into non-existence when the subdiaconate was suppressed? Surely this must have happened somewhere, somehow.
I have met subdeacons. For some reason i remember them. One, an RC I recall from the 80s, said he was ordained a subdeacon in the 60s. That was that. His wife and kids were also active in their parish. Back then, there were no "high Masses" except in a few retro Anglo-Catholic parishes or SSPX.
There was no liturgical role except perhaps acolyte or reader.
He would have continued as subdeacon, with the clerical obligations of celibacy, saying of offices, clerical dress as locally determined etc. The suppression was not universal (the subdiaconate continued in several Eastern Catholic churches and was later revived in some traditionalist peculiars). I would be surprised that Mama Thomas' friend was not laicized but it's not impossible that the authorities decided that they need not bother with it or even that the specific procedures died with the suppression.
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The Sainted Percy
Apprentice
# 17388
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Posted
For everyone who helped me with my questions about the Book of Common Prayer, I'd best apologise and say, like Jerome Aleander in the tediously Protestant film 'Luther' ''just one word... revoco*''!
Although, in fairness, this isn't about interpolations from Sarum into the BCP but about reviving the Use of Sarum itself, rather like the English Missal (anyone who read my post in the New Members thread knows this is my deepest interest and ideal and what, in such spare time as I have, I work at), so I hope I'm not breaking the Ship rules about crusading as virtually everything I have posted has been, in one way or another, about the Use of Sarum. The 'Ship might call itself a humour magazine but it's a wonderful serious forum as well.
Anyway, I wanted to ask a question about Sarum again, so I might as well do it. Simply, in the Dominican Rite, the Pax-Brede is presented to the people on feasts of the class simplex (in the Missale Romanum, semi-double - the Dominican and Sarum classifications for feasts are not that of the Missale Romanum) and above, might any Dominicans or others know if this the same according to Sarum?
Dear me, that was long!
* Latin for 'I recant'.
[ 06. November 2012, 16:40: Message edited by: The Sainted Percy ]
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Pancho
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# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edgeman:
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Wouldn't you find these in any copy of the Missal ? - for example the Sunday Missal published by Collins which you can probably get from Amazon at a knock down price.
However you will find that the Introit is called the 'Entrance Antiphon',that there is no Offertory and that you have also the 'Communion Antiphon' - that is ,if you are interested in the modern Roman Rite.
Well, you can certainly get a missal for the modern Roman rite containing all of these with the same terms- Introit, offertory, and communion-
The Gregorian Missal.
The Gregorian Missal combines elements of the Roman Missal and of the Roman Gradual. It includes a Kyriale (collection of Gregorian chant settings for the Mass) and the antiphons of the Missal are replaced in this book with the (Gregorian chant) antiphons of the Gradual. In place of the Responsorial Psalm it gives the Gradual for that Sunday or feast,a legitimate option at Mass. This is why the Gregorian Missal includes a Sunday or feast's offertory antiphon and gradual chant but the typical missal or missalette does not.
What's nice about the Gregorian Missal is that music is given for the chants and so are English translations as well as translations for the other Latin texts. This means it can be used both as a choir book and as a pew missal/missalette for the faithful.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
I'd like to get hold of the various propers (especially the introit, offertory and communion texts) for the Mass according to the modern Roman rite.
Are these available online? If not, what volumes do I need to buy?
You can find the chants for any given Sunday at Corpus Christi Watershed.
Forgive my ignorance, but are those on that website modern roman rite, as in the Missal?
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Mary, a priest??
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Actually I didn't come to this thread to ask the last question, it just came to me as I was reading the posts and the links.
What I came to ask is about Anointing.
Can laypeople anoint or is the sacrament reserved to the priest or deacon or whoever?
In a friends C of E church he tells me the lay people anoint, and the Biblle does seem to suggest that's OK if we take the elders to include laity - Epistle of James.
However, I don't know the official position/s
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Mary, a priest??
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Actually I didn't come to this thread to ask the last question, it just came to me as I was reading the posts and the links.
What I came to ask is about Anointing.
Can laypeople anoint or is the sacrament reserved to the priest or deacon or whoever?
In a friends C of E church he tells me the lay people anoint, and the Biblle does seem to suggest that's OK if we take the elders to include laity - Epistle of James.
However, I don't know the official position/s
In the RCC, only a priest can annoint.
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Actually I didn't come to this thread to ask the last question, it just came to me as I was reading the posts and the links.
What I came to ask is about Anointing.
Can laypeople anoint or is the sacrament reserved to the priest or deacon or whoever?
In a friends C of E church he tells me the lay people anoint, and the Biblle does seem to suggest that's OK if we take the elders to include laity - Epistle of James.
However, I don't know the official position/s
In the Church of England elders = presbyters = priests and only they can anoint (Canon B. 37).
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
Thanks. It brings to my mind ough more questions about this.
Firstly I suspect not all in the C of E would say elders=presbyters=priests. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) and further I don't see that as an official equating.
Secondly, why only priests anointing? Aren't they in fact administering the sacrament in the way that Eucharistic ministers administer communion. If the oil is blessed or consecrated by a priest why can't the lay person administer?
It seems to me that this could put church rules above the availability of the sacrament. E.g. I am taken suddenly ill taken to hospital where a lay chaplain only is available. Oil of Healing is available but I am denied it because an ordained person is not available. However, I could receive Holy Communion.
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Mary, a priest??
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I think whether elders=presbyters=priests is true for the Church of England or indeed any other tradition would be a question for Purgatory.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Canon B37 has:
quote:
If any such person so desires, the priest may lay hands upon him and may anoint him with oil on the forehead with the sign of the Cross using a form of service authorized by Canon B 1 and using pure olive oil consecrated by the bishop of the diocese or otherwise by the priest himself in accordance with such form of service.
Which, interestingly, seems to imply that the oils consecrated by the PEVs or other suffragans won't do. Hmm.
Thurible
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Thanks. It brings to my mind ough more questions about this.
Firstly I suspect not all in the C of E would say elders=presbyters=priests. and further I don't see that as an official equating.
Secondly, why only priests anointing?
(Firstly) I don't think there are any other 'elders' in the Church of England.
(Secondly) Those are the rules!
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Canon B37 has:
quote:
If any such person so desires, the priest may lay hands upon him and may anoint him with oil on the forehead with the sign of the Cross using a form of service authorized by Canon B 1 and using pure olive oil consecrated by the bishop of the diocese or otherwise by the priest himself in accordance with such form of service.
Which, interestingly, seems to imply that the oils consecrated by the PEVs or other suffragans won't do. Hmm.
Thurible
The relevant 'Introductions' to the Common Worship services e.g. to the Chrism Eucharist have 'bishop' without 'of the diocese'. The Wholeness and Healing service envisages the bishop or priest who is presiding consecrating the oil during the service - which makes you wonder what the Maundy Thursday oil is for.
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Canon B37 has:
quote:
If any such person so desires, the priest may lay hands upon him and may anoint him with oil on the forehead with the sign of the Cross using a form of service authorized by Canon B 1 and using pure olive oil consecrated by the bishop of the diocese or otherwise by the priest himself in accordance with such form of service.
Which, interestingly, seems to imply that the oils consecrated by the PEVs or other suffragans won't do. Hmm.
Thurible
The relevant 'Introductions' to the Common Worship services e.g. to the Chrism Eucharist have 'bishop' without 'of the diocese'. The Wholeness and Healing service envisages the bishop or priest who is presiding consecrating the oil during the service - which makes you wonder what the Maundy Thursday oil is for.
The notes suggest this is deliberate:
quote:
The oil to be used at this celebration should be pure olive oil and normally be consecrated during this service by the bishop (or priest) who presides, rather than having been previously blessed. This will not only ensure an adequate supply of oil, but provide a prayer of thanksgiving at the heart of the rite. If preferred, the prayer may be used in the responsive form on pages 46–47. If oil which has previously been blessed is used, then the form of thanksgiving in the rite for Laying on of Hands with Prayer and Anointing at a Celebration of Holy Communion (page 33) may be used.
(This does, of course, suppose that the oil has in fact been blessed either in this rite or in the Oils service on Maundy Thursday. The CW formula does not involve blessing the oils themselves.)
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
With different prayers -- I don't have time to look it up at the moment, but it's in the 1979 BCP rubrics for the sacrament.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
When I was an undergraduate at a theological college, the seminarians anointed during one College Communion.
Charles Read, of this parish, might remember how they got round the canons.
Thurible
[ 07. November 2012, 12:46: Message edited by: Thurible ]
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Firstly I suspect not all in the C of E would say elders=presbyters=priests. and further I don't see that as an official equating.
(Firstly) I don't think there are any other 'elders' in the Church of England.
I assume that the elders=presbyters=priests comment is a reference to James 5:14: "Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the Church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord." The word translated "elder" is presbuteros, from which we get the English word "priest."
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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St. Stephen the Stoned
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# 9841
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Posted
Our choir (not a church choir) will soon start rehearsals for the traditional Service of Nine Lessons and Carols, which we give in a local church (CofE). Is it necessary for the readers to say “This is the word of the Lord” after each reading? It seems to interrupt the flow of the service, as I remember it from my youth.
If the interjection is optional, is it a matter for the Musical Director, the vicar of the church where the service takes place, or somebody else?
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Do you want to see Jesus or don't yer? Well shurrup then!
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
The word translated "elder" is presbuteros, from which we get the English word "priest."
So most sources say. I've often wondered, though (and I ask out of ignorance, so please don't jump on me) why "priest" is not considered to have come from "proistamenos", which is the word that Orthodoxen use today to refer to their priests and which seems to my admittedly untrained eyes and ears to be more closely cognate to "priest".
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I think you have to factor in that Priest entered the language via Latin from Greek quite early. You also have to factor in the 16th C. vowel shift in English.
PD
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Stephen the Stoned:
Our choir (not a church choir) will soon start rehearsals for the traditional Service of Nine Lessons and Carols, which we give in a local church (CofE). Is it necessary for the readers to say “This is the word of the Lord” after each reading? It seems to interrupt the flow of the service, as I remember it from my youth.
If the interjection is optional, is it a matter for the Musical Director, the vicar of the church where the service takes place, or somebody else?
It is in fact wholly unnecessary. This formula is prescribed only in the order for Holy Communion. It is not necessary at morning or evening prayer, or indeed at any other service.
Various other formulas are used ("here ends the lesson" is common), but are also wholly unnecessary.
I agree with you that it interrupts the flow of this kind of service and would omit it. I'd suggest you discuss it with the people who are preparing the service: it seems quite unlikely that there would be any disagreement if such a request was made for aesthetic reasons..
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
The word translated "elder" is presbuteros, from which we get the English word "priest."
So most sources say. I've often wondered, though (and I ask out of ignorance, so please don't jump on me) why "priest" is not considered to have come from "proistamenos", which is the word that Orthodoxen use today to refer to their priests and which seems to my admittedly untrained eyes and ears to be more closely cognate to "priest".
As I understand it, proistamenos means "presider" and is the [Greek] Orthodox equivalent of "pastor" or "rector," not of "priest." I refer to the OrthodoxWiki for proistamenos and for presbyter.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Stephen the Stoned:
Our choir (not a church choir) will soon start rehearsals for the traditional Service of Nine Lessons and Carols, which we give in a local church (CofE). Is it necessary for the readers to say “This is the word of the Lord” after each reading? It seems to interrupt the flow of the service, as I remember it from my youth.
If the interjection is optional, is it a matter for the Musical Director, the vicar of the church where the service takes place, or somebody else?
In a word, no!
But your idea that The word of the Lord or This is the word of the Lord interrupts the "flow" is nonsense. After all, those words don't interrupt the "flow" at the Eucharist or other services, do they?
Actually the words always used after the readings in Nine Lessons & Carols are not This is the word of the Lord, at all. As originally written and still performed at King's College, Cambridge, the words used by the reader after each of the lessons is Thanks be to God. No response to those words is made. The words merely conclude the end of each lesson with a bit of praise.
Those are the words after each of the lessons written into the service in 1918 by Eric Milner-White, chaplain of Kings, when he put the service together. The same words have been used at Kings for the Festival of Nine Lessons & Carols ever since. I would say that to be authentic, the words Thanks be to God, spoken only by the reader of each lesson are not, as you have it, "an introjection," but rather a small, but significant part of an authentic performance of the service.
By the way, as you may know, the Festival of Nine Lessons & Carols was put together by Milner-White to be used on Christmas Eve in the great and glorious Kings College Chapel. The service was a very imaginative way of bringing the solace of great music within reach of the college and people of Cambridge who had sacrificed so very much in the Great War (WWI).
Milner-White took the ancient, pre-reformation model of the church's night time service of Matins, with it's interplay of lessons, psalms, hymns and canticles, and fashioned it into something completely accessible to the modern mind. The staying power of the service over many years has proved that.
Best of luck with your rehearsals and performance.
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Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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St. Stephen the Stoned
Shipmate
# 9841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
quote:
Originally posted by St. Stephen the Stoned:
Our choir (not a church choir) will soon start rehearsals for the traditional Service of Nine Lessons and Carols, which we give in a local church (CofE). Is it necessary for the readers to say “This is the word of the Lord” after each reading? It seems to interrupt the flow of the service, as I remember it from my youth.
If the interjection is optional, is it a matter for the Musical Director, the vicar of the church where the service takes place, or somebody else?
In a word, no!
But your idea that The word of the Lord or This is the word of the Lord interrupts the "flow" is nonsense. After all, those words don't interrupt the "flow" at the Eucharist or other services, do they?
Actually the words always used after the readings in Nine Lessons & Carols are not This is the word of the Lord, at all. As originally written and still performed at King's College, Cambridge, the words used by the reader after each of the lessons is Thanks be to God. No response to those words is made. The words merely conclude the end of each lesson with a bit of praise.
Those are the words after each of the lessons written into the service in 1918 by Eric Milner-White, chaplain of Kings, when he put the service together. The same words have been used at Kings for the Festival of Nine Lessons & Carols ever since. I would say that to be authentic, the words Thanks be to God, spoken only by the reader of each lesson are not, as you have it, "an introjection," but rather a small, but significant part of an authentic performance of the service.
Having "Thanks be to God" said after each reading would be preferable to the interjection (our MD's word) and response we used last year, and which according to Basilica is only prescribed for Holy Communion.
The form of service for the Festival of Nine Lessons and Carols is printed at the back of Carols For Choirs 1 (the Green Book), and does not indicate what is to be said after the readings. Our readers' cards are being checked as I write.
It looks as if it is our tradition to do it our way, and that is what we will do.
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Do you want to see Jesus or don't yer? Well shurrup then!
Posts: 518 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jul 2005
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Stephen the Stoned:
The form of service for the Festival of Nine Lessons and Carols is printed at the back of Carols For Choirs 1 (the Green Book), and does not indicate what is to be said after the readings. Our readers' cards are being checked as I write.
It looks as if it is our tradition to do it our way, and that is what we will do. [/QB]
For what it's worth, Common Worship Times and Seasons has an order for the service as well. It's not a very detailed one: it gives three bidding prayer options, three patterns for the readings, an instruction to use a seasonal blessing, and, well, that's about it.
It's the kind of service where there is a very wide degree of latitude to do what is appropriate for your particular circumstance.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
The word translated "elder" is presbuteros, from which we get the English word "priest."
So most sources say. I've often wondered, though (and I ask out of ignorance, so please don't jump on me) why "priest" is not considered to have come from "proistamenos", which is the word that Orthodoxen use today to refer to their priests and which seems to my admittedly untrained eyes and ears to be more closely cognate to "priest".
According to the OED, priest comes from presbyteros. It seems to have been in the English language by 600, i.e. from the time of our conversion, and definitely by 805.
What is perhaps odder is that English has no word corresponding to hiereus, sacerdos, or cohen. If there was a pagan word meaning 'a person who sacrifices' it hasn't survived. Nor has any indigenous word survived that means 'sacrifice', which clearly has a Latin root. Whatever words Coifi (Bede, History, II:13) used to describe his functions seem to have vanished from the language with no descendants.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
With different prayers -- I don't have time to look it up at the moment, but it's in the 1979 BCP rubrics for the sacrament.
That's good to know. With a shortage of priests, more and more of us lay ministers are getting asked to do things in extremis that is forbidden by canon but seems pastoraly essential.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Comper's Child
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# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
With different prayers -- I don't have time to look it up at the moment, but it's in the 1979 BCP rubrics for the sacrament.
That's good to know. With a shortage of priests, more and more of us lay ministers are getting asked to do things in extremis that is forbidden by canon but seems pastoraly essential.
"In cases of necessity, a deacon or lay person may perform the anointing, using oil blessed by a bishop or priest." is the rubric in question.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Manipled Mutineer
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# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Sainted Percy:
It's one of the books on this page - try searching for (capitals important) Altar Book.
Hah! Blessed Percy would have loathed it, I'm sure. As you know bodging and patching has always been very Anglo-Catholic!
I agree that the sort of attitude showed by Knott and the Committee of Priests can lead to a bit of a hash (there is a spectacularly strange Missal (The Missal and People's Missal by G.A.L. Clark) of sorts from the Edwardian period with Ambrosian Use and Eastern admixture to a BCP Order!, if I could get a copy of Dearmer's English Liturgy I certainly would, but I can't find one anywhere. Nevertheless, I'm rather fond of this sort of thing and do feel [I know you'll disagree with me] that the Communion (i.e. Mass) Order in the 1662 BCP is rather inadequate in theological terms more for it's omissions than any outright heresy.
Anyway,I'm digressing. Thank you very much - your description sounds pretty good, I think I will buy it, notwithstanding anything more you can tell me about it from there.
MMm - I was going to quote myself, but you have saved me the trouble! I rather liked the book, although my copy has long since passed into other hands.
You might also find the SSJE "Cowley Missal" here of interest.
The Altar version of The People's Missal is simply known as "The Missal"; alas I have never seen a copy although I believe Aa shipmate (Albertus?) may have both seen and possessed one at some point.
I remember reading in one of his books (although I cannot now trace the reference) Dr Dearmer's approving use of another's words about the perfection of the Prayer Book Rite, I am therefore inclined to concur that he would not have approved of the Interim Rite.
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
The Altar version of The People's Missal is simply known as "The Missal"; alas I have never seen a copy although I believe Aa shipmate (Albertus?) may have both seen and possessed one at some point.
No, not me, I'm afraid, MM.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
The word translated "elder" is presbuteros, from which we get the English word "priest."
So most sources say. I've often wondered, though (and I ask out of ignorance, so please don't jump on me) why "priest" is not considered to have come from "proistamenos", which is the word that Orthodoxen use today to refer to their priests and which seems to my admittedly untrained eyes and ears to be more closely cognate to "priest".
According to the OED, priest comes from presbyteros. It seems to have been in the English language by 600, i.e. from the time of our conversion, and definitely by 805.
What is perhaps odder is that English has no word corresponding to hiereus, sacerdos, or cohen. If there was a pagan word meaning 'a person who sacrifices' it hasn't survived. Nor has any indigenous word survived that means 'sacrifice', which clearly has a Latin root. Whatever words Coifi (Bede, History, II:13) used to describe his functions seem to have vanished from the language with no descendants.
True, as far as 'priest' goes, but one might speculate as to what it might have been from Germanic cognates such as Gothic gudja or Old Norse goði which look to be cognate with the word for 'God'. There is a word for 'sacrifice' as a noun in Old English - husl - which was adopted into Christian usage and as a word survives (sort of) in as much as houseling cloths do. Another apparently pagan survival is 'bless' - OE bletsian, cognate with 'blood', so to sprinkle with the blood of a sacrificial victim - a bit like 'blooding' in foxhunting circles.
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
The Altar version of The People's Missal is simply known as "The Missal"; alas I have never seen a copy although I believe Aa shipmate (Albertus?) may have both seen and possessed one at some point.
No, not me, I'm afraid, MM.
As a search of Oblivion has not brought up any references either, I am just going to chalk the whole thing up to my vivid imagination.
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Morlader
Shipmate
# 16040
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Posted
quote:
Mr Rob wrote:
Those are the words after each of the lessons written into the service in 1918 by Eric Milner-White, chaplain of Kings, when he put the service together. The same words have been used at Kings for the Festival of Nine Lessons & Carols ever since. I would say that to be authentic, the words Thanks be to God, spoken only by the reader of each lesson are not, as you have it, "an introjection," but rather a small, but significant part of an authentic performance of the service.
Just to be accurate, the first Nine Lessons and Carols was in 1880 in the temporary wooden Truro Cathedral. It was devised by the first bishop of Truro, +Benson, who went on to become ++Benson. The current King's service was "cribbed" (no apology!) from there: the lessons are very similar.
I don't know, but I think "Thanks be to God", said by the reader alone, is authentic. IMHO, requiring the congo to respond vocally to "This is the word of the Lord" is one of these "participation" fads.
[ 10. November 2012, 15:25: Message edited by: Morlader ]
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.. to utmost west.
Posts: 858 | From: Not England | Registered: Nov 2010
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
What is perhaps odder is that English has no word corresponding to hiereus...
"Hierarch" may be jargon but within the context of its usage it seems to have become a well established term in English, along with its adjectival form.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Yes, but it isn't used with that meaning. It's used to describe a person with a status within a formal structure.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Adrian1
Shipmate
# 3994
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:
Originally posted by The Sainted Percy on a now closed thread:
I don't know if I should just add this to my Sarum Use thread, but it is a seperate book and strictly speaking not a part of the Sarum Use - I've found a copy of the 'Altar Book' by a 'Committee of Priests' which apparently contains a heavily Sarum-interpolated Order of Mass with the Gelasian Canon, full rubrics and private prayers. It sounds, forgive me, a Godsend, but the bookseller would like nearly two hundred pounds, which, although liturgical books always run to the expensive; and it's a beautiful book, could be put towards something else out of tight budgets!
Does anyone have a copy and is it suitable? To what extent to the Sarum interpolations run? if it's merely the BCP with a small selection of Prayer Book Catholic propers, well , there are less expensive ones and I will press on with the Sarum Missal, but from the description it sounds far fuller and I'm very, very strongly inclined to buy it, but I can't see it in person.
The Sainted Percy. Please see my PM.
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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue
Posts: 1986 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Yes, but it isn't used with that meaning. It's used to describe a person with a status within a formal structure.
Not solely.
In the Orthodox Church it is commonly used as a synonym for "bishop", touching on the sacramental identity and liturgical roles of hierarchs. It is very much more in keeping with the original meaning than the common secular usage to which you refer.
When we talk about the Hierarchical Divine Liturgy we are talking about the Mystery of the Eucharist offered at the hands of the "liturgising" Bishop, concelebrating with the other orders within the Body of Christ.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
So, related to hierarch would the Catholic Church consider it's priests to be sacerdos or kohen or both?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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