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Source: (consider it) Thread: Random Liturgical Questions (answers on a postcard, please)
Galilit
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After 27 years living with Jews including 3 children going through kindergarten each doing the Hannukka Play at least twice (they sing and act it all out with elephants and a tiny child finding the unbroken flask of oil)...
I can assure you Jesus would not have celebrated Hannukka; neither as a child nor as an adult.
Even in the past it was not a major festival in either Israel or the Diaspora.
Since the "establishment" of "The State of Israel" the "military victory" of the Maccabean freedom fighters is the focus of it.

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Bostonman
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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Bostonman and others:

Please keep the discussions civil. As the Commandments have it: 'Don't offend; don't be easily offended'.

Your cooperation is as ever appreciated!

dj_ordinaire, Eccles host

Sorry! Was not meaning to offend. I apologize.
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
Two posters above (at least) mention Jesus having celebrated Hannukah. What have I missed in Scripture? Is it called something else?

I'm pretty sure there are no dreidls or latkes anywhere therein.

John 10:22 Feast of Dedication = Hanukkah
Wasn't that all about bowls of water in those days?

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Wasn't that all about bowls of water in those days?

I think the water might have been part of Tabernacles, hence this .

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Pomona
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By Jesus celebrating Hanukkah, I don't think he celebrated *modern* Hanukkah with dreidls and fried food and what-not, but surely Hanukkah existed then in some form if it's actually in John? Having said that, I don't see the point of Christians celebrating it as it's not a major Jewish festival or one we can learn from (and it doesn't help us to evangelise to Jews). Seders have an obvious connection to Easter, Hanukkah and Christmas not so much. Modern Judaism is so different from Jesus' Judaism anyway (although let's not totally remove Jesus' Jewish heritage from Christianity).

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Wasn't that all about bowls of water in those days?

I think the water might have been part of Tabernacles, hence this .
Oh yes - I wondered about that after I'd posted.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I don't see the point of Christians celebrating it as it's not a major Jewish festival or one we can learn from (and it doesn't help us to evangelise to Jews).

We could learn a lot about martyrdom and resistance to despotic goernments.

Why would we want to evangelise Jews? They have their own covenant.

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venbede
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Surely the Christian equivalent of the festival of the Dedication of the Temple, is the Dedication Festival of your own church?

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Barefoot Friar

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In some quarters of Protestantism, infant baptism is held to be wrong (they go for believers' baptism). They do, however, dedicate babies (taking a page from the prophet Samuel's mother). St. Paul wrote that our bodies are a temple. So then the "Dedication of the Temple" should be the day when our babies are dedicated.

I'll get my coat....

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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

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Bostonman
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quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
In some quarters of Protestantism, infant baptism is held to be wrong (they go for believers' baptism). They do, however, dedicate babies (taking a page from the prophet Samuel's mother). St. Paul wrote that our bodies are a temple. So then the "Dedication of the Temple" should be the day when our babies are dedicated.

I'll get my coat....

That's quite interesting. To me, it says something about the (innate is a tricky word, but "innate") human need to have ceremonies marking certain transitions. We fill the spaces up even if particular ceremonies get shifted around.

Something like...
Dedication <=> Infant baptism <=> Circumcision
Adult baptism <=> Confirmation <=> Bar/bat mitzvah (?)

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Adam.

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Wow, I didn't expect my comment about Hanukkah to generate so much discussion! For the record, I don't think we should be aping modern Jewish Hanukkah traditions which are almost all post-second Temple. I do, however, believe the miracle happened and that God should be praised for it. The question is, when (given it never occurs in the lectionary)?

I'm intrigued by the idea of mentioning it at a baptism (dedication of our bodies which are Temples) or at the feast of Dedication of our Church (which I have to admit Anglicans often do a better job marking than Catholics.) Certainly, the focus this Sunday should be on the Second Sunday of Advent. (Or rather, on the saving work of Christ in our lives, as focused through the Second Sunday of Advent). But, can't we spare one intention of our Prayers of the Faithful? As leo says, there are fitting themes for actualization today, such as behavior under persecution.

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Adam.

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At the very least, this sir hallel could be included in our private devotions!

[ 06. December 2012, 14:34: Message edited by: Hart ]

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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I don't see the point of Christians celebrating it as it's not a major Jewish festival or one we can learn from (and it doesn't help us to evangelise to Jews).

We could learn a lot about martyrdom and resistance to despotic goernments.

Why would we want to evangelise Jews? They have their own covenant.

For the same reason we should want to evangelise all who are not believers in Christ?

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leo
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Well, the so-called 'good news' of Christianity is very bad news for Jews. It has led to pogroms and mass slaughter.

Current Jews reckon that attempts to convert them to Christianity has wiped out more Jews than Hitler did.

As for their not 'believing in Christ', why should they. Jesus did not fulfil the messianic prophecies of the Tanak.

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seasick

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Tangent city here, which is quite an achievement for a random questions thread!

Christian-Jewish relations in general, including the holocaust and historic anti-semitism belong in Purgatory.

Whether and how Christians should celebrate Hanukah could be its own thread here in Ecclesiantics.

Given those directions, can we please return this thread to its proper use?

Much obliged.

seasick, Eccles host

[ 07. December 2012, 11:50: Message edited by: seasick ]

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ButchCassidy
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Hopefully obliging, a probably v simple question:

My vicar was asking the name of a vestment she saw, like a hooded cloak with a "Venetian blind" effect down the back.

Any thoughts from knowledgeable shipmates?

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by ButchCassidy:
Hopefully obliging, a probably v simple question:

My vicar was asking the name of a vestment she saw, like a hooded cloak with a "Venetian blind" effect down the back.

Any thoughts from knowledgeable shipmates?

I checked Wippells but didn't see anything that clearly fit the description. There are cloaks but no photos of the back. Wonder if it was a cope?

I imagine the "Venetian blind" effect as horizontal pleats of some sort. Perhaps it was vertical pleats, in which case I'm thinking a monastic cowl or cuculla.

[ 08. December 2012, 23:46: Message edited by: Oblatus ]

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Corvo
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Where and when did she see it?
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Spike

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And what colour was it?

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ButchCassidy
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I'm afraid I don't know a lot - she was shown it by a curate who described it as 'ecclesiastical fancy dress' (tho our shack is lib cath itself so must be fairly quirky). Think it was black, with a hood, and she gestured it with the bands going horizontally down the back, literally like a Venetian blind.
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Triple Tiara

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I imagine what is being described is a ferraiolo.

Image 1

Image 2

Image 3

wiki article

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Emendator Liturgia
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Triple T - in the last of the pics you posted - the person holding the end of The bishop's train has a cord hanging down his back, attached it seems from his sleeve: what in the name of whatever is that and what is it for?

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Albertus
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Isn't that one of the new lifesize RC Action Man dolls- the deluxe model? Eagle eyes, gripping hands, and when you pull the string hanging out of his back he says three Hail Marys. I want one for Christmas.

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Zappa
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I want one. Though perhaps not in Darwin. I do have a cappa nigra that I wear occasionally - but again not in Darwin.

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
Triple T - in the last of the pics you posted - the person holding the end of The bishop's train has a cord hanging down his back, attached it seems from his sleeve: what in the name of whatever is that and what is it for?

It's the loop that prevents the fascia from slipping off, as any fule kno [Biased]

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Triple Tiara

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Yup, as Trisagion says. I haven't been able to find any pictures that show it clearly with a fascia (or band cincture) in place. But if you look carefully at some pictures of bishops in their cassocks you will see the string loops. Not sure what an attendant was doing wearing such a cassock though.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Isn't that one of the new lifesize RC Action Man dolls- the deluxe model? Eagle eyes, gripping hands, and when you pull the string hanging out of his back he says three Hail Marys. I want one for Christmas.

[Killing me]

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Emendator Liturgia
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quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Not sure what an attendant was doing wearing such a cassock though.

Yes, that is what sparked my question - fair enough for senior prelates, but why did he have one?

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Emendator Liturgia
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Isn't that one of the new lifesize RC Action Man dolls- the deluxe model? Eagle eyes, gripping hands, and when you pull the string hanging out of his back he says three Hail Marys. I want one for Christmas.

Me too! [Devil]

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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!

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Zappa
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quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Not sure what an attendant was doing wearing such a cassock though.

Yes, that is what sparked my question - fair enough for senior prelates, but why did he have one?
Maybe he was cold?

I shouldn't jest - when I went to my former parish in NZ there was a full set of vestments. I was told they were for use in the winter.

The problem where I am now is it's too hot to wear clothes, let alone vestments!

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Gee D
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I was in Canberra one Ash Wednesday, with the midnight temp well over the 30 mark. The priest at the evening eucharist I attended apologised for not wearing a chasuble, on the basis that the Lenten purple one was just too hot.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Morlader
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Harold Darke's setting of "In the bleak mid-winter", beautiful and much sung now-abouts, is dedicated "To M.A.C."
Who he/she?

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Arch Anglo Catholic
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Margaret Agnes Calkin - a friend of the compsoer, identified in the Winter 2010 edition of The Bell - published by Stainer and Bell
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Morlader
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Very many thanks, AAC.

I get S&B's The Bell and should've remembered. [Frown]

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Pomona
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Hoping this is an appropriate place to ask - any Catholics or Anglo-Catholics here have personal shrines/devotional areas in their home or even office, or have links to good examples of them? Preferably to Our Lady but interested in seeing examples of personal shrines to other saints too.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Not sure what an attendant was doing wearing such a cassock though.

Yes, that is what sparked my question - fair enough for senior prelates, but why did he have one?
Because the cassocks of those attending senior prelates are, in origin and theory, the livery of those prelates. Therefore, it is entirely correct that he should be dressed as he is. Whether it is considered "over the top" these days is quite another matter and the answer depends to large extent on one's attitude to tat.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Hoping this is an appropriate place to ask - any Catholics or Anglo-Catholics here have personal shrines/devotional areas in their home or even office, or have links to good examples of them? Preferably to Our Lady but interested in seeing examples of personal shrines to other saints too.

Here's ours, in an oldish photo...there's a bit more on the wall now, and the books are more neatly arranged, but this gives an idea. It's an old butcher-block table that used to be used as a sideboard-slash-wine-rack.

There's a link near the photo for a gallery of other Christian home altars.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Hoping this is an appropriate place to ask - any Catholics or Anglo-Catholics here have personal shrines/devotional areas in their home or even office, or have links to good examples of them? Preferably to Our Lady but interested in seeing examples of personal shrines to other saints too.

Here's ours, in an oldish photo...there's a bit more on the wall now, and the books are more neatly arranged, but this gives an idea. It's an old butcher-block table that used to be used as a sideboard-slash-wine-rack.

There's a link near the photo for a gallery of other Christian home altars.

Excellent, many thanks! I love your idea of using something you can store Bibles/other Christian books in.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Hoping this is an appropriate place to ask - any Catholics or Anglo-Catholics here have personal shrines/devotional areas in their home or even office, or have links to good examples of them? Preferably to Our Lady but interested in seeing examples of personal shrines to other saints too.

I've got a Buddha in mine.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Percy B
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Can anyone recommend a vestment maker who makes reasonably prided high mass sets, or at least dalmatics / tunicles.

Nothing ornate needed.

Thanks [Smile]

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Mary, a priest??

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The Silent Acolyte

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I'm not sure where Melanudrigill is, but Stateside Davis D'Ambly is good when Watts is not affordable.
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Percy B
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Sorry should have said I am in the UK.

I understand there may be some suppliers from Eastern Europe or Asia who do simple high mass sets.

Anyone know, please?

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Mary, a priest??

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Sergius-Melli
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quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Sorry should have said I am in the UK.

I understand there may be some suppliers from Eastern Europe or Asia who do simple high mass sets.

Anyone know, please?

Rather surprisingly have a look on ebay... I have seen some very cheap vestments advertised by a maker in Poland (I have never seen these vestments up close though so have no idea about quality etc. - but the patterns used are fairly simple but effective.)- I believe I've come across a company in India which also advertises on Ebay... I can't remember the company name, but let me have a look and I'll post abck if I find anything.

[ 19. December 2012, 12:18: Message edited by: Sergius-Melli ]

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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We obtained a very nice white High Mass set (chasuble, dalmatic, tunicle, stoles and maniples) for around £500 from:

http://www.catholicliturgicals.com

This may, of course, be the Indian company Sergius-Melli is thinking of. We are currently enquiring about a red High Mass set, but our churchwarden hasn't had a reply yet to his e-mail - they might be on holiday.......(and if you phone them, they're 5.5 hours ahead of GMT, I am told).

eBay is also worth exploring - we have a couple of Polish-made chasubles - though the Indian firm seems to be the only one offering low-priced dalmatics etc.

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sergius-Melli
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# 17462

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
We obtained a very nice white High Mass set (chasuble, dalmatic, tunicle, stoles and maniples) for around £500 from:

http://www.catholicliturgicals.com

This may, of course, be the Indian company Sergius-Melli is thinking of. We are currently enquiring about a red High Mass set, but our churchwarden hasn't had a reply yet to his e-mail - they might be on holiday.......(and if you phone them, they're 5.5 hours ahead of GMT, I am told).

eBay is also worth exploring - we have a couple of Polish-made chasubles - though the Indian firm seems to be the only one offering low-priced dalmatics etc.

Ian J.

Yep, that's the one!
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012  |  IP: Logged
Percy B
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# 17238

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Thanks. I can't see high mass sets though Bishops Finger.

They don't have tunicles. Did they make them special for you?

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Mary, a priest??

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Carys

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# 78

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I got a low mass set (including maniple) for mum's priesting from Luzar Vestments and they also do High Mass sets. Based near Oxford. I couldn't remember the name of the company, but near Oxford stuck and googling Vestments Oxford brought success.

Carys

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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Percy B - their range may have changed (we bought our set in 2011), but IIRC we did indeed have the tunicle made to order (at very little extra cost).

Or, to put it another way, you can ask them to provide chasuble, priest's stole, dalmatic, deacon's stole, tunicle (which can match the dalmatic), and 3 maniples. I think that's what our churchwarden did when he contacted the company.

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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SyNoddy
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# 17009

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Elsewhere there is a thread touching on various candles found in church. This prompts me wonder on the significance of candles regarding Churchmanship: Why do 'high' churches have a whole battery of candles on the alter while 'MOTR' churches have just 2? Plus, why the differences of advent wreath candles, purple/pink/white vs red/white or any other variations?
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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by SyNoddy:
Why do 'high' churches have a whole battery of candles on the alter while 'MOTR' churches have just 2?

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. If they are 'high' in the sense of wanting to outdo the Rome of 50 years ago their altars will look like Santa's grotto; if they are 'high' in the sense of Anglican sobriety à la Archbishop Laud or Percy Dearmer, they will have two tasteful candlesticks; if they are 'high' in the sense of following the minimalist taste of Vatican 2 they will have one or two stubby candles placed asymmetrically (and possibly balanced by a pot plant at the other end of the altar). MOTR meanwhile will just go for what looks nice or maybe not even notice whether there are any candles there or not.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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