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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Random Liturgical Questions (answers on a postcard, please)
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SyNoddy
Shipmate
# 17009
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Posted
I am SO loving the offset pot plant idea!
Maybe all such decisions should be made with reference to the flower arrangers who are nature's arbiters of all things tasteful ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
(I am a church flower arranger and know of what I speak)
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Angloid, by "pot plant" do you mean a potted plant or a conveniently-placed source of cannabis?
The latter, it seems to me, would be clear evidence of someone being high...
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I've seen such in churches in Amsterdam, so probably both.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Lone voice: I'm not!
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Jon in the Nati
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# 15849
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Posted
Extremely high church...
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Re colours of candles on Advent wreaths I would say that in Germany/Austria where these have been around or a long time the four candles on the wreath would be uniformly red or uniformly white.
Advent wreaths are found in almost every house whether the people are church goers or not - just like the now ubiquitous Christmas trees in the UK and USA which don't really indicate whether those who have them are Christians or not.
Since Advent wreaths were introduced mainly into churches in the UK (and USA ?) the candles have been generally given the liturgical colours for the four Sundays of Advent in the Roman rite with the further introduction of a white Christ candle for Christmas day.(Three purple and one rose)
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SyNoddy:
Elsewhere there is a thread touching on various candles found in church. This prompts me wonder on the significance of candles regarding Churchmanship: Why do 'high' churches have a whole battery of candles on the alter while 'MOTR' churches have just 2? Plus, why the differences of advent wreath candles, purple/pink/white vs red/white or any other variations?
In keeping with Dearmer my MOTR Anglican Church holds to these rules with the occassional embellishment for certain parts of the year... mainly with a little pushing from me...
"(1) two lights on the altar; (2) two standards on the pavement...; (3) other lights near ... the altar ... for use on the principal feasts;" - although Dearmer advocates 2 or 4 in the last category, and not behind the Altar, we have a 'little-big six' normally just at the sanctuary step which are removed most of the year popped in for Christmas and then for the Easter Vigil/Octave where they line the nave acting as the stations on the vigil procession and a nice pentecostally focussed guiding lights.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SyNoddy:
Elsewhere there is a thread touching on various candles found in church. This prompts me wonder on the significance of candles regarding Churchmanship: Why do 'high' churches have a whole battery of candles on the alter while 'MOTR' churches have just 2? Plus, why the differences of advent wreath candles, purple/pink/white vs red/white or any other variations?
3 purple/1 pink is a high church thing - pink and the accompanying Gaudete Sunday are relatively recent additions following the Anglo-Catholic movement in the 19th century. The white centre candle is optional but imo makes sense. The Advent wreath itself is a Lutheran tradition and originally consisted of red candles, and so other historical Protestant (eg Baptist) and low church Anglicans will have red candles in their wreaths.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by SyNoddy:
Elsewhere there is a thread touching on various candles found in church. This prompts me wonder on the significance of candles regarding Churchmanship: Why do 'high' churches have a whole battery of candles on the alter while 'MOTR' churches have just 2? Plus, why the differences of advent wreath candles, purple/pink/white vs red/white or any other variations?
3 purple/1 pink is a high church thing - pink and the accompanying Gaudete Sunday are relatively recent additions following the Anglo-Catholic movement in the 19th century. The white centre candle is optional but imo makes sense. The Advent wreath itself is a Lutheran tradition and originally consisted of red candles, and so other historical Protestant (eg Baptist) and low church Anglicans will have red candles in their wreaths.
I'm going to have to go back to my really old BCPs and missals to check, but yes the colours might be relatively recent through the influence of those Anglo-Catholics, but I thought the principle nature behind Gaudete Sunday was an old thing, certainly dating from the reform of the Mass after Trent... will have to check and see.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Advent wreaths are a relatively new thing in the UK, 1970s onwards and fairly gradual, but now almost universal. There are various schemes as to what they denote. It's fairly obvious that the candles came first and, being Christians, we felt they ought to be given meanings. CW has 1, patriarchs, 2, prophets, 3, John the Baptist, 4, the Virgin, 5, lit at midnight on Christmas Eve, Jesus. I think we had this discussion last year.
We have four red ones and one white one. We don't bother with the pink one.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Advent wreaths are a relatively new thing in the UK, 1970s onwards and fairly gradual, but now almost universal. There are various schemes as to what they denote. It's fairly obvious that the candles came first and, being Christians, we felt they ought to be given meanings. CW has 1, patriarchs, 2, prophets, 3, John the Baptist, 4, the Virgin, 5, lit at midnight on Christmas Eve, Jesus. I think we had this discussion last year.
We have four red ones and one white one. We don't bother with the pink one.
Quite right on all of that (though I disagree with the colours you give... that's just me!) I have to say at this juncture, thank God that there is always a spare purple candle in the box for when your not so attentive Parish Priest lights the colours in the wrong order...
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Advent wreaths are a relatively new thing in the UK, 1970s onwards and fairly gradual, but now almost universal.
I blame Valerie Singleton, "Blue Peter" and wire coat-hangers. But that was in the 1960s.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
....and sticky-backed tape, of course...... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Father got completely discombobulated at our Christingle Service last week, and told the assembled throng that the pink candle on the Advent Wreath signified Our Lady...... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
....and sticky-backed tape, of course......
Father got completely discombobulated at our Christingle Service last week, and told the assembled throng that the pink candle on the Advent Wreath signified Our Lady......
Ian J.
Surely it is sticky-backed plastic/ double-sided sticky-tape or so it was in my not too long ago youth watching Blue Peter...
What would Priests do without sacristans/MCs to stear them in the right direction in the liturgy and knowledge of the Church... examples as we give... we humble servants are of course only human and can't prevent Father from cocking up occassionally... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Angloid, by "pot plant" do you mean a potted plant or a conveniently-placed source of cannabis?
The latter, it seems to me, would be clear evidence of someone being high...
Perhaps some of the leaves could be mixed in with the contents of the thurible.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Angloid, by "pot plant" do you mean a potted plant or a conveniently-placed source of cannabis?
The latter, it seems to me, would be clear evidence of someone being high...
Perhaps some of the leaves could be mixed in with the contents of the thurible.
You would need a proper thurifer who likes to 'fog' the Church to have a proper effect in this situation I think...
Which lends itself to a hypothetical based tangent... what kind of incense (ie., Dumont's Pontifical/Sandlewood/Gloria etc. etc. - other good brands and mixes exist out there) would best cover the presumably powerful smell of cannabis burning in a thurible...
[edited some typos]
[ 21. December 2012, 13:48: Message edited by: Sergius-Melli ]
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Advent wreaths are a relatively new thing in the UK, 1970s onwards and fairly gradual, but now almost universal. There are various schemes as to what they denote. It's fairly obvious that the candles came first and, being Christians, we felt they ought to be given meanings. CW has 1, patriarchs, 2, prophets, 3, John the Baptist, 4, the Virgin, 5, lit at midnight on Christmas Eve, Jesus. I think we had this discussion last year.
We have four red ones and one white one. We don't bother with the pink one.
Alas you are quite right, especially with the "being Christians, we felt they ought to be given meanings". It's a pity that we can't just leave them as "the four Sundays of Advent, preparing for the great joy of Christmas".
The first candle is lit on the first Sunday of Advent, when there is a particular focus on the prophets. The candle does not "represent" or "signify" the prophets. After all, Advent I is also traditionally the day for preaching on Death as the first of the Four Last Things, and no-one suggests that the first purple candle represents that!
[/grump]
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
After all, Advent I is also traditionally the day for preaching on Death as the first of the Four Last Things, and no-one suggests that the first purple candle represents that!
I think that may be more to do with pastoral considerations in the Anglican church - we don't want our ageing congregations to be dwelling on such a topic too much!
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Mine are three purple and one pink. The United Methodist Book of Worship (UMBOW) calls for four purple, but since we already had the pink one and since our Advent paraments depict three purples and a pink, I decided to stick with that.
[ 21. December 2012, 16:09: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
After all, Advent I is also traditionally the day for preaching on Death as the first of the Four Last Things, and no-one suggests that the first purple candle represents that!
I think that may be more to do with pastoral considerations in the Anglican church - we don't want our ageing congregations to be dwelling on such a topic too much!
Alternatively, it could be suggested that the imminence of death makes talking about it all the more urgent!
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Bishops' letters and sermons are prone to to refer to the Four Last Things. Although a candle can stand for heaven, it would be a bit odd to have a candle of death, judgement or hell.
Too much of a cloud of cannabis impregnated incense might give the lucky thurifer a sense of visionary rapture.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
3 purple/1 pink is a high church thing - pink and the accompanying Gaudete Sunday are relatively recent additions following the Anglo-Catholic movement in the 19th century. The white centre candle is optional but imo makes sense. The Advent wreath itself is a Lutheran tradition and originally consisted of red candles, and so other historical Protestant (eg Baptist) and low church Anglicans will have red candles in their wreaths.
My first church (until 7) though quite high (and with a priest called Fr Geoffrey for some of that time) had 4 berry bright red candles, don't know what they do these days. OTOh I was in a Welsh Baptist church the other day that had 3 purple and a pink (but it was before Advent 3 so I can't tell you if they got the pink right), so I think the liturgical colours are winning out.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Bishops' letters and sermons are prone to to refer to the Four Last Things. Although a candle can stand for heaven, it would be a bit odd to have a candle of death, judgement or hell.
Sounds very heavy metal.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
so I think the liturgical colours are winning out.
Most probably because that's what the church supply shops sell.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by SyNoddy:
Elsewhere there is a thread touching on various candles found in church. This prompts me wonder on the significance of candles regarding Churchmanship: Why do 'high' churches have a whole battery of candles on the alter while 'MOTR' churches have just 2? Plus, why the differences of advent wreath candles, purple/pink/white vs red/white or any other variations?
3 purple/1 pink is a high church thing - pink and the accompanying Gaudete Sunday are relatively recent additions following the Anglo-Catholic movement in the 19th century. The white centre candle is optional but imo makes sense. The Advent wreath itself is a Lutheran tradition and originally consisted of red candles, and so other historical Protestant (eg Baptist) and low church Anglicans will have red candles in their wreaths.
I'm going to have to go back to my really old BCPs and missals to check, but yes the colours might be relatively recent through the influence of those Anglo-Catholics, but I thought the principle nature behind Gaudete Sunday was an old thing, certainly dating from the reform of the Mass after Trent... will have to check and see.
Oh the colours are older, sorry, I just meant that the use of pink (or rose to be really correct) in the Anglican church has only really been going on since the Anglo-Catholicism movement. Obviously in the Catholic church itself it was happening a long time before that!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
Watching the Christmas Mass from St. Peter's, the narrating monseigneur mentioned that the Pope was wearing a rarely seen vestment, one symbolizing the shield of faith. Naturally, I'd never heard of it, and, equally naturally, I forgot what it was called as soon as I heard it. What is this vestment, and why exactly is it rarely seen?
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I think next year I am going to channel my ancestral Kranky Kraut and have four red candles in the Advent wreath. I heard one two many questions about the pink candle this year, and also, four reds and a white is what I remember from my teenage years (1980s, in case you are wondering.)
The thing that bugs me is I cannot remember when we used to take the blessed thing down. I have some vague idea it was the feast of the Circumcision, or possibly Epiphany, but I am not at all sure.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Doesn't it go away after Christmas Eve/Day? It's primarily an Advent thing, after all. At any rate, I'm getting rid of ours next time I'm in the office, which should be Thursday or Friday.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
The papal vestment which Ariston asks about is called the 'fanon'.It serves much the same purpose as the amice.Its use is documented since the 700s of the Christian era but later on became reserved to the Roman pontiff.
Its symbolic use with alternating bands of white and gold recall the indissolubility of the Latin and the Oriental church.
In the wake of Vatican2 the fanon was abandoned (along with the maniple !!)Paul VI wore it a few times.John Paul 2 only once and now Benedict 16 has started to wear in again on solemn occasions.
Happy christmas.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
The Advent Wreath has indeed fulfilled its purpose, and, I gather, will not be present in our sanctuary next Sunday.
Some rather splendid flower arrangements are, however, already present....!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
Doesn't it go away after Christmas Eve/Day? It's primarily an Advent thing, after all. At any rate, I'm getting rid of ours next time I'm in the office, which should be Thursday or Friday.
Ah, but then there is the "Christ Candle" in the center, which means my church will apparently be leaving it out until Epiphany. Unless Olaf makes it into the church before then...
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
The papal vestment which Ariston asks about is called the 'fanon'.It serves much the same purpose as the amice.Its use is documented since the 700s of the Christian era but later on became reserved to the Roman pontiff.
Its symbolic use with alternating bands of white and gold recall the indissolubility of the Latin and the Oriental church.
Ah! Thanks for that! So it was the striped vestment that looked like an amice—that's what I thought it was at first, but something didn't look quite right about it.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
One hesitates to criticise a hallowed national institution, a tradition that for many marks the beginning of Christmas, but am I the only person who found the Carols from Kings slightly precious and enervated, beauty as a way of keeping God firmly at arm's length?
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I will admit I find it over-rated.
But I am interested that in this age when anything remotely formal in worship is thought to be off putting without loads of explanations, King's manages to provide an hour and a half of non-didactic liturgical worship and remain popular.
I'm not bothered by it myself.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
Do you mean the telly version or the radio? The radio is live whereas the telly is filmed a few weeks in advance and more populist with poems etc as well as scripture.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
One hesitates to criticise a hallowed national institution, a tradition that for many marks the beginning of Christmas, but am I the only person who found the Carols from Kings slightly precious and enervated, beauty as a way of keeping God firmly at arm's length?
Not at all! Found it as ever a populist knees-up with high production values and evangelistic fervour.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
TV version was good as always, but far too mannered and tricksy to be glorious. They could do with fewer clever arrangements and a lot more lusty congregational singing.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
The thing that bugs me is I cannot remember when we used to take the blessed thing down. I have some vague idea it was the feast of the Circumcision, or possibly Epiphany, but I am not at all sure.
Epiphany - the twelf day of Christmas, if there is a Christ Candle included. If no Christ candle, then I suggest 25/12 is the last sighting for another year.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
It's Holy Family Sunday this coming Sunday.
Is it ever observed with particular traditions in liturgy - for example blessings of families?
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
...and whose own family was far from conventional and possibly highly dysfunctional. But then that's what you preach about, surely?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Does anybody know a place from where spare censer lining bowls may be had?
At church where I used to worship, we used the small tin-foil containers used for cooking individual pies - you know the ones, the sort you get in Fish & Chip shops. You can get them in bulk from most cash & carrys and are very cheap.
What a good idea! Thank you so much for this. A quick google reveals that a single, inexpensive pack will last a very long time.
I'm really grateful.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Why does the censer bowl have to be lined? (An innocent question, just wondering).
I guess from what is being said the metal holders of mince pies are too small. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Mary, a priest??
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
If the censer bowl is lined, it makes it a lot easier to remove the gunk which accumulates - you simply throw away and replace the liner, rather than scrape away for ages to clear aforesaid gunk.
At least, so I am reliably informed - they don't let me anywhere near the thurible, lest I accidentally drop/break/damage/destroy/lose the thing......
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
So if someone was baptised into the Dutch Reformed church of South Africa as a babe and attended Sunday school for the first seven odd years of his life (but his parents never attended church ) then moved to Australia and religion became a thing of the past until age 40 when he wants to become a part of the Anglican Church, would you confirm him or welcome him into the Anglican Church (two different services - for those that are unaware)?
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a theological scrapbook
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aig
Shipmate
# 429
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Posted
I would present him to a bishop for confirmation (if that is his desire).
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That's not how we do it here.......
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Why does the censer bowl have to be lined? (An innocent question, just wondering).
Apart from Bishop's Finger's general reply, there are the reasons peculiar to my parish.
The bowl really is quite deep, and actually broadens out a little from the actual opening at the top. There are others that we have and which I prefer but my parish priest prefers this one. The problem is that maintaining it alight and getting the incense actually onto the charcoal, not to mention cleaning it out, are well nigh impossible without the missing bowl or some equivalent.
[ 28. December 2012, 12:44: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
Thank you BF and Herr Scrumpmeister for the answers.
I have a straightforward question, or I think it is.
I would like a new alb. Nice quality, easy to launder, no hood.
I am in the UK.
Where you recommend?
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Mr. Rob
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
If the censer bowl is lined, it makes it a lot easier to remove the gunk which accumulates - you simply throw away and replace the liner, rather than scrape away for ages to clear aforesaid gunk.
At least, so I am reliably informed - they don't let me anywhere near the thurible, lest I accidentally drop/break/damage/destroy/lose the thing......
Ian J.
A foil liner can be used, but it must be the heavier weight foil, or just forget it. The standard metal thurible cup, which should be made of stamped steel, can can be more easily scraped out than you seem to assume.
The cup, with the cooled coals, ash and incense residue, should should be removed from the thurible as soon as practicable and the contents knocked out of it into a proper place or fireproof container. A good deal of the incense residue will be knocked out of an unlined cup with the dead coals and ash. Anything further by way of scraping the cup can easily be provided by an old tablespoon or knife kept for the purpose. Unless the cup has been previously mishandled, nothing much more is needed to perform this easy task.
A thurible coal cup is not made to be kept shiny and clean, but will be somewhat pitted or grimy, discolored by heat and in service to its utilitarian purpose as long as it is properly emptied and scraped after each use. The scraping is not so much for cleanliness, but to prevent the build up of incense residue in layers that will smoke before the time that is needed in a service. In a proper working sacristy one should never find a thurible that has been left hanging uncleaned following a previous use.
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[ 28. December 2012, 22:37: Message edited by: Mr. Rob ]
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
So if someone was baptised into the Dutch Reformed church of South Africa as a babe and attended Sunday school for the first seven odd years of his life (but his parents never attended church ) then moved to Australia and religion became a thing of the past until age 40 when he wants to become a part of the Anglican Church, would you confirm him or welcome him into the Anglican Church (two different services - for those that are unaware)?
I agree with aig. Confirmation is appropriate when someone has never made an adult profession of faith so the subject of your enquiry, who has received baptism as an infant, should be presented for confirmation.
If the person in question had been through the equivalent of confirmation, such as reception into membership or even baptism as an adult, then I would view the welcome as being most appropriate.
I suspect there are those who would recommend confirmation for anyone who had not explicitly been confirmed.
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