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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Random Liturgical Questions (answers on a postcard, please)
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jordan32404
Shipmate
# 15833
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Next week is Lent and I loathe replacing the Te Deum with the Benedicite for Morning Prayer because to me, this canticle is not suitably penitential. I am fond of the Prayer of Manasseh in the US Book of Common Prayer. Is there a Cranmerian version of this Prayer? Or am I stuck using the KJV version of it?
Is the Benedicte to replace the Te Deum in Lent according to the 1662 BCP?
Posts: 268 | From: Albany, NY | Registered: Aug 2010
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
In answer to jordan: In the BCP, at morning prayer, the Benedicite is given as an alternative canticle to the Te Deum, as is the Jubilate Deo to the Benedictus (As is, at evening prayer, the Cantate Domino an alternative to the Magnificat and the Deus Misereatur to the Nunc Dimittis.) But it doesn't specifically say that should happen in Lent - this I think (correct me if I'm wrong) has developed as a tradition - in my old church, where we always sang Mattins as well as Evensong, the tradition was that we should sing the alternative canticles in Advent and Lent. It is certainly good to have a little variety from time to time. According to the BCP, the only written stipulation is that the Venite is replaced by an alternative anthem on Easter Day and that the alternative canticles which are versions of the psalms are not used on the days when this is already the psalm of the day.
If you don't find the Benedicite penitential enough, you could always keep the Te Deum during Lent and, instead of individual prayers, use the Litany - which is extremely 'have mercy upon us miserable sinners' penitential.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
The reason for this slightly odd custom seems to be that the Te Deum is used at the end of Mattins/Vigils/Office of Readings in the Roman Catholic Breviary on any day when the Gloria in Excelsis is used in the Mass. (which is where Cranmer's Morning Prayer took it from - the old Sarum Mattins, with Lauds contributing the Benedictus). Hence, it is used on most Sundays but not on the Sundays in Lent.
This led certain Anglicans to adopt the practice of dropping the Te Deum from Mattins when said or sung during Lent. As the canticle now comes in the middle of the Office rather than the end one can hardly just omit it, so as the Benedicite is provided as an alternative this is used instead. This is despite the fact that, as jordan notes, it is not particularly Lenten or penitential. It just *isn't* the Te Deum!
A curious mangling of traditions, and not one with any obvious answer, especially as the 1662 BCP doesn't drop the Gloria in Excelsis from the Holy Communion during Lent anyway! ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
The reason for this slightly odd custom seems to be that the Te Deum is used at the end of Mattins/Vigils/Office of Readings in the Roman Catholic Breviary on any day when the Gloria in Excelsis is used in the Mass. (which is where Cranmer's Morning Prayer took it from - the old Sarum Mattins, with Lauds contributing the Benedictus). Hence, it is used on most Sundays but not on the Sundays in Lent.
This led certain Anglicans to adopt the practice of dropping the Te Deum from Mattins when said or sung during Lent. As the canticle now comes in the middle of the Office rather than the end one can hardly just omit it, so as the Benedicite is provided as an alternative this is used instead. This is despite the fact that, as jordan notes, it is not particularly Lenten or penitential. It just *isn't* the Te Deum!
A curious mangling of traditions, and not one with any obvious answer, especially as the 1662 BCP doesn't drop the Gloria in Excelsis from the Holy Communion during Lent anyway!
Another alternative I have heard is to use the
Salvator Mundi
In my Vancouver parish, the Salvator Mundi is used during Passiontide. Alas neither the Salvator Mundi or the Prayer of Manasseh is in the Canadian Book of Alternative Services. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
The Benedicite is IMHO suitable for use as a Processional hymn for either Harvest Thanksgiving or Francistide.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Unless it is critical to be using a version in C16 English, this (about a third of the way down the page) is the selection from the Prayer of Manasseh that the CofE provides for daily prayer in Lent.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Ps. 51 was given as an alternative to both the Te Deum and Benedicite in the Deposited Book. This also is the fixed psalm in Lauds II in the Pius X Breviary.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
So, this came up today.
At my local, the priest toddles down the line handing out the bread, and the LEMmings follow behind with the chalice. The priest bestows blessings on kids who don't partake.
What should the LEMmings do when they get to these kidlets?
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
A chalice bearer would breeze blissfully past; a host minister would pray for God to bless them.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
A chalice bearer would breeze blissfully past; a host minister would pray for God to bless them.
See, that's what I thought, but there was some concern the kids would feel 'left out' or something.
Most of 'em are doing backflips on the altar rail by that time, anyway.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Each day before my morning devotions I pray the beautiful Psalm XIX ('The Heavens declare the Glory of God: and the firmament showeth forth His handiwork'). It includes the line, pertaining to the sun, 'He hath come forth as a bridegroom from his chamber: and rejoiceth as a giant to run his course'. I have always taken this to mean that the exit of the newlywed man on 'the morning after' - no doubt ready for his breakfast - was considered a particularly celebratory moment!
Interesting; I come across this one (psalm 18 in Catholic use) occasionally as I pray the Breviary and the imagery has always appealed to me. I had always taken it as being the bridegroom hurrying from his chamber to his betrothal, though!
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
This question arose at my shack yesterday, after Ash Wednesday service: When is it appropriate to wipe the ashen cross off your forehead?
Quite a few people mentioned that another parishioner (who was not present) had told them that the correct thing to do is to remove the cross before you leave the church. He'd told them that the early Christians had to do so for fear of persecution. I suspect said parishioner was making sh*t up.
Wikipedia agrees with what I'd thought: one leaves the cross on until it wears off on its own. (Section Ritual, second sentence)
But does anyone here have something authoritative that's a little less Wiki and a little more GIRMy? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Thanking you in advance.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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jordan32404
Shipmate
# 15833
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Posted
The 1979 BCP lists Ash Wednesday and Good Friday as official fasts and then says the following:
quote:
The following days are observed by special acts of discipline and
self-denial:
Ash Wednesday and the other weekdays of Lent and of Holy Week,
except the feast of the Annunciation.
Good Friday and all other Fridays of the year, in commemoration of the
Lord's crucifixion, except for Fridays in the Christmas and Easter
seasons, and any Feasts of our Lord which occur on a Friday.
So the weekdays of Lent and the Fridays of Lent are like Ash Wednesday and Good Friday but not necessarily fasts?
Posts: 268 | From: Albany, NY | Registered: Aug 2010
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
The 1979 BCP lists Ash Wednesday and Good Friday as official fasts and then says the following:
quote:
The following days are observed by special acts of discipline and
self-denial:
Ash Wednesday and the other weekdays of Lent and of Holy Week,
except the feast of the Annunciation.
Good Friday and all other Fridays of the year, in commemoration of the
Lord's crucifixion, except for Fridays in the Christmas and Easter
seasons, and any Feasts of our Lord which occur on a Friday.
So the weekdays of Lent and the Fridays of Lent are like Ash Wednesday and Good Friday but not necessarily fasts?
Right. Traditionally they've been days of "abstinence"--from eating meat. The BCP wording here lets us decide whether meatlessness or something else is appropriate for us as an act of discipline or self-denial.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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jordan32404
Shipmate
# 15833
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Posted
Sadly, I've never heard this announced in any Episcopal parishes I've been to. But it is a rich system of penitence and self-denial that should be made known!
Posts: 268 | From: Albany, NY | Registered: Aug 2010
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
So, this came up today.
At my local, the priest toddles down the line handing out the bread, and the LEMmings follow behind with the chalice. The priest bestows blessings on kids who don't partake.
What should the LEMmings do when they get to these kidlets?
This LEMming looks 'em right in the eye and says, "The Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, which was shed for thee preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life: drink this in remembrance that Christ's Blood was shed for thee and be thankful."
Occasionally, I'll get a child who plaintively says, "I want some, too."
To which I think to myself, "So right that you should; and, who dares put the fence between you and the Mysteries?!" It's one of those times when I feel I've done my job properly.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
So, this came up today.
At my local, the priest toddles down the line handing out the bread, and the LEMmings follow behind with the chalice. The priest bestows blessings on kids who don't partake.
What should the LEMmings do when they get to these kidlets?
This LEMming looks 'em right in the eye and says, "The Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, which was shed for thee preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life: drink this in remembrance that Christ's Blood was shed for thee and be thankful."
Occasionally, I'll get a child who plaintively says, "I want some, too."
To which I think to myself, "So right that you should; and, who dares put the fence between you and the Mysteries?!" It's one of those times when I feel I've done my job properly.
I would so love it if The Ship had a "like" button right now.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
This question arose at my shack yesterday, after Ash Wednesday service: When is it appropriate to wipe the ashen cross off your forehead?
Quite a few people mentioned that another parishioner (who was not present) had told them that the correct thing to do is to remove the cross before you leave the church. He'd told them that the early Christians had to do so for fear of persecution. I suspect said parishioner was making sh*t up.
Wikipedia agrees with what I'd thought: one leaves the cross on until it wears off on its own. (Section Ritual, second sentence)
But does anyone here have something authoritative that's a little less Wiki and a little more GIRMy?
Thanking you in advance.
Last night, we were asked to wipe off each others' ash during the peace as a sign of reconciliation. That way, we kept the command of the gospel which implied that we shouldn't show off our piety.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
This question arose at my shack yesterday, after Ash Wednesday service: When is it appropriate to wipe the ashen cross off your forehead?
Quite a few people mentioned that another parishioner (who was not present) had told them that the correct thing to do is to remove the cross before you leave the church. He'd told them that the early Christians had to do so for fear of persecution. I suspect said parishioner was making sh*t up.
Thanking you in advance.
Yes, that is in fact 'made up,' as the practice of ashing the faithful dates from IIRC the 12th century, well after the times of persecution.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Last night, we were asked to wipe off each others' ash during the peace as a sign of reconciliation.
Sounds ghastly. What about those who didn't want potential strangers stroking their foreheads, whilst no doubt looking a combination of intense and embarrassed?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Last night, we were asked to wipe off each others' ash during the peace as a sign of reconciliation.
Sounds ghastly. What about those who didn't want potential strangers stroking their foreheads, whilst no doubt looking a combination of intense and embarrassed?
Thurible
Just be grateful that you didn't misread "ash".
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Last night, we were asked to wipe off each others' ash during the peace as a sign of reconciliation.
Sounds ghastly. What about those who didn't want potential strangers stroking their foreheads, whilst no doubt looking a combination of intense and embarrassed?
Thurible
I agree. Under the previous vicar, we always had male AND female priests dong the imposition after a woman confided that she could not kneel in front of a man because she had been abused as a child.
As for wiping off - it was optional and I kept my ashes on - it provokes interesting conversations in the pub afterwards and it's the nearest I'd ever get to 'witnessing'.
Then again, I didn't like having to explain why I wasn't doing what everyone else was doing. They tolerate me for being 'conservative' anglo catholic but I'd rather save my thunder for issues that i consider essential rather than minor.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
Just be grateful that you didn't misread "ash".
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) Quotes file!
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
This question arose at my shack yesterday, after Ash Wednesday service: When is it appropriate to wipe the ashen cross off your forehead?
The best sermon I ever heard on Ash Wednesday (and probably in the top 20 I've heard ever) was last year by our seminarian intern, who said,
quote:
If you are proud that you came here today, if you think anyone is going to be impressed, go wash your forehead as soon as the service is over. Don’t worry it still counts. Consider yourself reminded and move on. If you want to make sure that people know you have fulfilled your religious duty- go wash your face.
On the other hand if you are kind of embarrassed by the thought of going out in the world with a weird dirt smudge on your face, leave it. A little humility will do you good. Its okay, not being clean won’t kill you. Your friends might ask and this is a great chance to tell the truth.
I commend the entire sermon to y'all, it's here.
Anyway, back to my earlier question:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
At my local, the priest toddles down the line handing out the bread, and the LEMmings follow behind with the chalice. The priest bestows blessings on kids who don't partake.
What should the LEMmings do when they get to these kidlets?
This LEMming looks 'em right in the eye and says, "The Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, which was shed for thee preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life: drink this in remembrance that Christ's Blood was shed for thee and be thankful."
So, you say this to the kids who haven't had the BoOLJC, and if so, why?
[Edited because one of these days I'll learn to UBB correctly]
[ 24. February 2012, 22:15: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
This question arose at my shack yesterday, after Ash Wednesday service: When is it appropriate to wipe the ashen cross off your forehead?
Quite a few people mentioned that another parishioner (who was not present) had told them that the correct thing to do is to remove the cross before you leave the church. He'd told them that the early Christians had to do so for fear of persecution. I suspect said parishioner was making sh*t up.
Thanking you in advance.
Yes, that is in fact 'made up,' as the practice of ashing the faithful dates from IIRC the 12th century, well after the times of persecution.
While they might well have made it up, it was a consideration for Xns in more recent times and there are Mexican and Czech accounts of wiping off the ash before leaving church so as to avoid difficulty.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
A chalice bearer would breeze blissfully past; a host minister would pray for God to bless them.
See, that's what I thought, but there was some concern the kids would feel 'left out' or something.
Most of 'em are doing backflips on the altar rail by that time, anyway.
It's funny--I've known grown-ups feel left out when their kids get a blessing and they 'only' receive the sacrament. Kids are meant to think 'I want some of that!' and prepare accordingly.
Re. the church that has people wipe off each other's ash 'as a sign of reconciliation': the ash is a sign of our mortality. Wiping each other's ash off misunderstands this--as well as being icky.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
This "going up for a blessing" thing is odd isn't it, when you think of it?
Perhaps a separate thread?
It's not very protestant is it? And it happens in places where they wouldn't dream of a service of Benediction, but that is what it is.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
This "going up for a blessing" thing is odd isn't it, when you think of it?
Perhaps a separate thread?
I'd be up for it.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
A chalice bearer would breeze blissfully past; a host minister would pray for God to bless them.
See, that's what I thought, but there was some concern the kids would feel 'left out' or something.
Most of 'em are doing backflips on the altar rail by that time, anyway.
It's funny--I've known grown-ups feel left out when their kids get a blessing and they 'only' receive the sacrament. Kids are meant to think 'I want some of that!' and prepare accordingly.
Re. the church that has people wipe off each other's ash 'as a sign of reconciliation': the ash is a sign of our mortality. Wiping each other's ash off misunderstands this--as well as being icky.
No - the origin was as a sign of public penance. the mortality thing was a later gloss.
The idea rubbing them off at the peace comes from Richard Giles' Times and Seasons. He argues that leaving church still wearing ashes contradicts the teaching of Jesus in the gospel of the day.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
It is a bit odd not to receive communion with the ash still in place.
Why not use the holy water stoup as you exit to wash the ashes off, and save all those dirty handkerchiefs?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
So, this came up today.
At my local, the priest toddles down the line handing out the bread, and the LEMmings follow behind with the chalice. The priest bestows blessings on kids who don't partake.
What should the LEMmings do when they get to these kidlets?
This LEMming looks 'em right in the eye and says, "The Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, which was shed for thee preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life: drink this in remembrance that Christ's Blood was shed for thee and be thankful."
Occasionally, I'll get a child who plaintively says, "I want some, too."
To which I think to myself, "So right that you should; and, who dares put the fence between you and the Mysteries?!" It's one of those times when I feel I've done my job properly.
To which Spiffy wants to know quote:
So, you say this to the kids who haven't had the BoOLJC, and if so, why?
Yes, that's what I do.
They have schlepped up from the pews; they are looking right at the chalice; they are looking right at me.
It seems only hospitable to tell 'em what it is; to tell 'em what it's for. To tell 'em why they should want it.
And, it's a hook. An evangelical hook. I know I've landed a fish when one of them, no doubt stirred by the Holy Spirit, utters the plaint, "I want some, too!"
Let me repeat myself, who dares to forbid these little ones.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Richard Giles! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) Figures. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
I'm looking for the list of Psalms and Psalm verses that are omitted in the New Zealand Prayer Book.
I've trawled every which way with google, but I'm coming up empty.
Is there anybody here who can help?
Here is the answer to this question.
Hopefully, google will turn this post up in the future.
Here is the relevant text from A New Zealand Prayer Book He Karakia Mihinare O Aorearoa, page 195f: quote:
Some omissions have been made on the grounds that we are not making a new translation of the Book of Psalms, but providing psalms suitable for Christian worship. Some verse of the psalms are not suitable for use in the corporate worship of the church.
The passages omitted are:
18:38-43; 21:8-12; 24:4,5; 35:4-8; 54:5,7;
55:16; 58 in toto; 59:5,11-13; 68:21-23; 69:24-30;
79:10, 12; 83 in toto; 101:6,9; 106:34; 109:5-19;
110:5-7; 137:7-9; 139:19-22; 140:9-11; 141:7, 8;
143:13; 149:7-9
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
The answer was easily contained within the text of the book itself?
Good grief, I could have just walked ten feet for that one... Sorry, TSA!
[For what it's worth, I ended up researching this for twenty minutes or so--an eternity, in the web era of expecting everything to be answered in five seconds. Still, I turned up nothing. This actually restores a hope in me that books are not dead yet.]
[ 27. February 2012, 01:30: Message edited by: Martin L ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I am shocked. Actually omitted, rather than printed with brackets round them or in a different typeface to indicate 'you may decide not to sing these'! I would have thought that puts the individual members of the NZ equivalent of the liturgical commission at risk of the judgement in Revelation 22:19.
Also, their censorship seems either incomprehensible or seriously bad. I can see why they might want to suggest people don't sing Pss 58 and 109:5-19 congregationally. However, we do sometimes feel like that. But censoring Psalm 24:4-5 suggests a liturgical commission that is both doctrinally illiterate and seriously into truth denial. The one who ascends into the hill of the Lord and has clean hands and a pure heart, is Christ, not some of us but not others.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
Being that today is the Commemoration of George Herbert, Priest and Poet:
In the poem "King of Glory, King of Peace", sung as a hymn, what does "cream of my heart" refer to?
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Morlader
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# 16040
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Posted
Annunciation is transfered to March 26th this year as 25th is a Lent Sunday. Is it "right" to sing "Glory be to God on high" at Mass on that Feast?
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.. to utmost west.
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Morlader
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# 16040
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Posted
Thanks.
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.. to utmost west.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
With genuflection at "and became man."
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
If one does not already genuflect there regularly.
(Sorry, I got caught up in the momentum)
[ 27. February 2012, 21:04: Message edited by: Martin L ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Being that today is the Commemoration of George Herbert, Priest and Poet:
In the poem "King of Glory, King of Peace", sung as a hymn, what does "cream of my heart" refer to?
You're the cream in my coffee, you're the salt in my stew.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Basilica
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# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
Annunciation is transfered to March 26th this year as 25th is a Lent Sunday. Is it "right" to sing "Glory be to God on high" at Mass on that Feast?
Furthermore, is it correct to say the Te Deum at morning prayer? The psalms set are 111 and 113, which include the a-word. Should that be omitted or spoken?
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Basilica
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# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Being that today is the Commemoration of George Herbert, Priest and Poet:
In the poem "King of Glory, King of Peace", sung as a hymn, what does "cream of my heart" refer to?
The cream in milk is the richest, highest quality bit, which rises to the top. So the cream of my heart is the very richest, the very best my heart has to offer.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Last night, we were asked to wipe off each others' ash during the peace as a sign of reconciliation.
Sounds ghastly. What about those who didn't want potential strangers stroking their foreheads, whilst no doubt looking a combination of intense and embarrassed?
Thurible
Just be grateful that you didn't misread "ash".
And if you do misread it, then maybe we have an idea for Maundy Thursday to replace foot-washing.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
If one does not already genuflect there regularly.
(Sorry, I got caught up in the momentum)
A double genuflection (i.e., kneeling on both knees) would then be in order, as in the EF.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
O how I hate this bl***ed Roman genuflection business (as do my ageing and creaky knees.....)!
I have started a subversive practice at Our Place by making a profound bow (as per Sarum Use) when entering and leaving the Sanctuary.....
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
Annunciation is transfered to March 26th this year as 25th is a Lent Sunday. Is it "right" to sing "Glory be to God on high" at Mass on that Feast?
Furthermore, is it correct to say the Te Deum at morning prayer? The psalms set are 111 and 113, which include the a-word. Should that be omitted or spoken?
Yes to Te Deum (used whenever the Gloria is used at Mass, I think). No to Alleluia, however - just say the Psalms without them if it offends your sensibilities!
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
Annunciation is transfered to March 26th this year as 25th is a Lent Sunday. Is it "right" to sing "Glory be to God on high" at Mass on that Feast?
Gloria, Credo, and there is a Proper Preface. In our book, it is the same as that for the Purification of the BVM, but your province's liturgy may be different.
If the Gloria is used at Mass then the Te Deum is used at Matins.
That one is, as they say, "Simples."
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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malik3000
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# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Last night, we were asked to wipe off each others' ash during the peace as a sign of reconciliation.
Sounds ghastly. What about those who didn't want potential strangers stroking their foreheads, whilst no doubt looking a combination of intense and embarrassed?
Thurible
Just be grateful that you didn't misread "ash".
And if you do misread it, then maybe we have an idea for Maundy Thursday to replace foot-washing.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) You naughty, naughty folks!
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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New Yorker
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# 9898
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Posted
Next week there is to be a sung Dominican Rite Mass at a parish near me. Briefly, how is a Dominican Rite Mass different from the standard Roman Rite Mass?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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