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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Random Liturgical Questions (answers on a postcard, please)
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acton bell
Apprentice
# 15576
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Posted
Is the Dominican rite mass being celebrated in NYC? If so, when? I think I would like to attend, as it is only something I have ever read about.
The Wikipedia page is quite good on the subject
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
Dominican Rite Missa Cantata
Wednesday, 7 March 2012
6:30 p.m.
Church of St. Vincent Ferrer
Lexington Avenue at 66th Street
See here.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Dominican Rite Missa Cantata
Wednesday, 7 March 2012
6:30 p.m.
Church of St. Vincent Ferrer
Lexington Avenue at 66th Street
See here.
I'm hoping to make the trip up to attend this.
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http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
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jordan32404
Shipmate
# 15833
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Posted
I went to a local RC parish for a Mass this evening. The priest did not elevate the host or chalice at the consecration, is this normal?
Posts: 268 | From: Albany, NY | Registered: Aug 2010
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
In Albany, it may be normal, sadly.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
It's not even normal by Lutheran standards.
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jordan32404
Shipmate
# 15833
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Posted
I know nothing of the RC Diocese of Albany. My Episcopal parish has an elevation.
Posts: 268 | From: Albany, NY | Registered: Aug 2010
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
I went to a local RC parish for a Mass this evening. The priest did not elevate the host or chalice at the consecration, is this normal?
I don't know precisely what the GIRM says, but often in these parts what happens is what I'd call an "exposition", a showing without elevating.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Paul Turner's book Let us pray (a guide to the rubrics of Sunday Mass) has this to say on the matter:
quote:
The priest shows the consecrated bread to the people (OM 89, 102, 110, 119). He shows the bread; he need not lift it high in elevation. Even before the Council the priest was only instructed to show the bread, not to elevate it. But with his back to the people, the only way he could show it was to elevate it. Today the bread need not be lifted so high. By choosing a medium position for the elements, the priest reserves their elevation for the conclusion of the Eucharistic Prayer.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
That is a bit funny, considering that the elevation during the final doxology was typically referred to as the Minor Elevation, with the implication that the [Major] Elevations occurred during the consecration.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
I went to a local RC parish for a Mass this evening. The priest did not elevate the host or chalice at the consecration, is this normal?
To put it mildly - NO! GIRM says elevate and genuflect at the major elevations. However, a lot of priests donot seem to take GIRM seriously.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
You're right about genuflection. I can see no basis in the texts, though, for elevating after the words of institution rather than simply showing. The time for elevating is the final doxology. Could you cite the passage in the GIRM that you were thinking of?
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
... but the 'lesser elevation' at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer is of the paten/ciborium, rather than of just the bread that is on/in it, surely?
[ 05. March 2012, 11:29: Message edited by: Oferyas ]
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
The modern rite knows no such terms as minor / major elevation. That's what's causing all of this conclusion. In the elevation during the final doxolgy, you are correct that the paten and a chalice are elevated (OM 98, 106, 114, 123; GIRM 151). Before the Council, a host was elevated at this point. Now, it is the paten.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Dominican Rite Missa Cantata
Wednesday, 7 March 2012
6:30 p.m.
Church of St. Vincent Ferrer
Lexington Avenue at 66th Street
I'm hoping to make the trip up to attend this.
I believe one of our Mystery Worshippers has expressed his intent to be there too. There should be quite a contingent of Shippies. Perhaps you should all wear white cowls so you'll recognize each other. All I can say is that there had better be a MW report produced from this . . . or else!
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
So the "Reconciliation Room" of the parish I often stop by for confession is now painted a stunning shade of red: walls and ceiling. I was startled when I went in. Formerly it was white. Any liturgical or other reason a reconciliation room would be painted red?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
The modern rite knows no such terms as minor / major elevation. That's what's causing all of this conclusion. In the elevation during the final doxolgy, you are correct that the paten and a chalice are elevated (OM 98, 106, 114, 123; GIRM 151). Before the Council, a host was elevated at this point. Now, it is the paten.
I know that is required by the OF, but to me it lacks the glorious triumph of what to me is one of the most beautiful gestures in the world: the Host over the Chalice at the end of the Eucharitic prayer. To me, that one gesture sums up everything said before in the prayer, beautiful, especially when the whole assembly is facing the same way.
The paten and chalice and I've seen either one in sometimes the celebrant's left or right hands, seems like an offering to the people of the Holy Gifts. I suppose that's what it is.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
So the "Reconciliation Room" of the parish I often stop by for confession is now painted a stunning shade of red: walls and ceiling. I was startled when I went in. Formerly it was white. Any liturgical or other reason a reconciliation room would be painted red?
Perhaps it is painted red and white in alternate years in order to make a scriptural point. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Rosa Gallica officinalis
Shipmate
# 3886
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Posted
perhaps it's magic paint that changes to white when the priest pronounces absolution.
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Come for tea, come for tea, my people.
Posts: 874 | From: The Hemlock Hideout | Registered: Jan 2003
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis:
perhaps it's magic paint that changes to white when the priest pronounces absolution.
In that case I'm in trouble!
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
The main feast of St Werburgh is the 3rd of February but does anybody know when the feast of her Translation falls? I have found a discussion on an internet board from a few years ago, when the 1100th anniversary of the event was celebrated, and it mentions the 21st of June as her "festival day", without going into any further specifics than that. Another website also lists the 21st of June as her birthday, (though I'm not sure why they think that St Werburgh's birthday is something that would be celebrated liturgically). However, it does make me wonder whether the 21st of June may indeed be the feast of her translation, without people who observe it realising what it is that they are celebrating.
Unable to find any entry for St Werburgh on that date in the Roman Martyrology, I assumed it would be a local feast (as translations often are) but apparently the kalendar of Sarum isn't quite local enough, as it has no entry at all for the 21st of June. Some sources give the 21st of June as the Translation of St Walburga, who is a different saint, and I wonder whether this may be a source of some confusion with St Werburgh (often spelt Werburga).
Is anybody able to shed any light on this? Many thanks.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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jordan32404
Shipmate
# 15833
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Posted
Two questions...
In the 1979 BCP, is it allowed to substitute another daily lectionary for the one provided in the BCP? I'm thinking of the 1662 Lectionary which I like because of the amount of Scripture covered.
Two, I've heard that the 1928 BCP can be authorized for use in parish worship. How does one go about getting this done? (I'm not a priest but I do lead Morning Prayer and I'd like to see if that's a possibility).
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
In the 1979 BCP, is it allowed to substitute another daily lectionary for the one provided in the BCP? I'm thinking of the 1662 Lectionary which I like because of the amount of Scripture covered.
For public worship in church, probably not. The BCP seems to assume the use of the Lectionary given for the Daily Office. For individual use, I don't think there's any problem.
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
Two, I've heard that the 1928 BCP can be authorized for use in parish worship. How does one go about getting this done? (I'm not a priest but I do lead Morning Prayer and I'd like to see if that's a possibility).
A letter to the Bishop and a response indicating approval, I'd think. Same thing for the 1662 lectionary.
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
Two questions...
In the 1979 BCP, is it allowed to substitute another daily lectionary for the one provided in the BCP? I'm thinking of the 1662 Lectionary which I like because of the amount of Scripture covered.
In, ordinary circumstances of scheduled public services, I would advise not deviating too far from the Prayer Book lectionary. However, "any reading may be lengthened at discretion" (rubric, p. 914), and this might be a back door for more concentrated scripture readings. Also, "on Special Occasions, the officiant may select suitable psalms and readings" (p. 915.)
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Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
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acton bell
Apprentice
# 15576
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Posted
I was wondering about the Votive Office of the Dead. Would the VOD replace regular morning and evening prayer or said as an addition to? What is its current status? Is it still supposed to be said on the Mondays in Lent?
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by acton bell:
I was wondering about the Votive Office of the Dead. Would the VOD replace regular morning and evening prayer or said as an addition to? What is its current status? Is it still supposed to be said on the Mondays in Lent?
Depends on whose set of rules you're bound to follow, or what your preferences are if not bound to a set of rules.
Generally, I think individuals who pray the Office but aren't bound to it would pray the Office of the Dead instead of that of the day when one has just heard of a death of someone close or simply feels led to pray the Office of the Dead. It might be prayed on the day of a funeral of someone close as well.
Some monastic communities in various times and places have prayed the Office of the Dead on specific days (such as All Souls' Day), and I've heard of this being done in place of the office of the day and in addition to the office of the day. Carthusians tend to double up on offices, praying the Little Office of the BVM privately as an addition, hour by hour. I believe they pray an Office of the Dead in this manner on prescribed days.
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
I use the Roman Breviary and tend to follow the 1962 rules for reciting it, doing as Oblatus' Carthusians do in that I recite the Office of the Dead in addition to the office of the day, when the occasion seems to call for it. This accords with the rubrics, which say "This office is said in choir on the day of burial and on other days when the custom of the particular church calls for it: Matins together with Lauds after Lauds of the day, Vespers after Vespers of the day..." I hadn't come across the custom of reciting it on the Mondays of Lent before and would be interested to know more.
[ 21. March 2012, 22:02: Message edited by: Manipled Mutineer ]
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
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acton bell
Apprentice
# 15576
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Posted
I got the Mondays in Lent (and Advent) from the Wikipedia entry, under the Practice and Obligation subheading. This claim isn't supported with a citation, so I have no idea if it is correct or no.
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by acton bell:
I got the Mondays in Lent (and Advent) from the Wikipedia entry, under the Practice and Obligation subheading. This claim isn't supported with a citation, so I have no idea if it is correct or no.
Reading it, it is talking about the breviary as reformed by the Council of Trent, so is no doubt correct. The Tridentine breviary was subject to a number of reforms over the years (my 1962 breviary being the last of these) and no doubt the Monday obligation dropped out in the course of these.
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by acton bell:
I was wondering about the Votive Office of the Dead. Would the VOD replace regular morning and evening prayer or said as an addition to? What is its current status? Is it still supposed to be said on the Mondays in Lent?
Office of the Dead replaces whatever part of it you say. Dead priests from our community get waked in the seminary (so you begin and end in the same place), so we say Office of the Dead whenever there's a dead body physically in the chapel. GILH 245 would suggest that you can say it any day except: solemnites, Sundays of Advent, Lent, Easter, Ash Wednesday, Holy Week, 8ve of Easter and 2 November.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
I went to a choral evensong recently and the priest, in choir dress, carried a mortarboard with him as they processed in, and when he went to the legilium to read a lesson. It looked slightly as though he had a black kitten or bunny in the crook of his arm that he couldn't bear to put down. What's the reasoning behind this?
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
The 'square' can be worn as part of choir dress as an alternative to its near-relative, the Canterbury cap (or its continental cousin, the biretta). It's not that rare for them to be used in this manner, particularly in Anglican cathedrals. On the other hand, they do look a little (whisper it...) silly so it much more usual for people to carry them rather than actually wear them.
Now, what the purpose might be in having a hat that you have no intention of wearing might seem odd behaviour, although this is pretty much happens with academic hoods - actually using one to keep the rain off, anyone?
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Unless you have a bad leak in the church roof, academic hoods are worn by the choir in order to carry heavy books belonging to the person behind you in the procession. Or so I always tell the person in front of me.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Henry Chadwick as Dean of Christchurch, Oxford, always carried a mortar board at Evensong. I can never hear the words "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you" without thinking of him.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Unless you have a bad leak in the church roof, academic hoods are worn by the choir in order to carry heavy books belonging to the person behind you in the procession. Or so I always tell the person in front of me.
A very good point Chorister, although hardly worth saying three times? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Unless you have a bad leak in the church roof, academic hoods are worn by the choir in order to carry heavy books belonging to the person behind you in the procession. Or so I always tell the person in front of me.
A very good point Chorister, although hardly worth saying three times?
If it's worth saying once...
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
For those who follow the English Use, what would one do for tenebrae during Holy Week? would you use six candles on the altar as in Roman usage or just two?
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jordan32404
Shipmate
# 15833
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Posted
In my parish church, the processional cross has been veiled during Lent, is that a normal practice in TEC?
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Veiling of crosses during Lent is not uncommon in churches that are higher-up-the-candle. The practices can differ in terms of how much is veiled and what color is used. There's a pretty good overview here. Click on "Lenten Customs" on the left column and then scroll down to "The Dance of the Lenten Veils." (Yes, that sounds a little flippant but the content is not.) This source says that in some uses the veil is taken off the cross on Palm Sunday.
In my MOTR place, nothing is veiled but we have just a drape, in oatmeal Lenten Array color, over the altar cross. It does not cover it completely. It's kind of like a shawl.
[ 23. March 2012, 23:50: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Is it acceptable to observe Lent V and the Annunciation on the same day (March 25th)?
Lent V supplants Annunciation for the Sunday morning, but if one transfers Annunciation to the Monday, then it seems acceptable to celebrate it on the Sunday evening as the Vigil.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
The Annunciation is the 26th this year. Mary gets to be pregnant for one less day.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Is it acceptable to observe Lent V and the Annunciation on the same day (March 25th)?
Lent V supplants Annunciation for the Sunday morning, but if one transfers Annunciation to the Monday, then it seems acceptable to celebrate it on the Sunday evening as the Vigil.
NO! Lent V is a Greater Sunday and displaces Annunciation's I Vespers or I Evensong. So saith Howard Galley (A Prayer Book Office), and some others. But it depends on which authority you're bound to obey.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Is it acceptable to observe Lent V and the Annunciation on the same day (March 25th)?
Lent V supplants Annunciation for the Sunday morning, but if one transfers Annunciation to the Monday, then it seems acceptable to celebrate it on the Sunday evening as the Vigil.
NO! Lent V is a Greater Sunday and displaces Annunciation's I Vespers or I Evensong. So saith Howard Galley (A Prayer Book Office), and some others. But it depends on which authority you're bound to obey.
Actually, I think where you are, you would consult the Ordo for your diocese/archdiocese, which I think says the same thing and indicates 2nd Vespers of the Sunday rather than 1st Vespers of the Annunciation. But that Ordo is where the answer is. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Is it traditional that baptisms are not performed during Lent? I thought this was the case but we had a strange situation today at my (anglo-catholic) church where a priest from another diocese visited, gave the sermon and then after the mass the visiting priest baptised his grandchild. Might the fact the baptism was done after the service be because it is Lent, or another reason?
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Baptism is permissible at any time. However since Lent is (probably) in origin preparation for baptism at Easter, it is not totally appropriate during that season.
Maybe having the baptism outside mass is recognizing that aspect. Or maybe not. You'd have to ask.
[ 25. March 2012, 06:51: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
Indeed. There is never a time when it is improper to bring somebody into the Church. While Easter is the most appropriate time, as the culmination of the lenten preparation, even the strictest observers of Lent will not refuse baptism if there is pastoral warrant.
My own baptism was on one of the pre-lenten Sundays, for pastoral reasons. It worked out well as it ended up being the Sunday of the Prodigal Son.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Prodigal? Toi?
Anyway it worked and it's bearing fruit!
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Is it traditional that baptisms are not performed during Lent? I thought this was the case but we had a strange situation today at my (anglo-catholic) church where a priest from another diocese visited, gave the sermon and then after the mass the visiting priest baptised his grandchild. Might the fact the baptism was done after the service be because it is Lent, or another reason?
It is traditional, but nothing compulsory. In my present parish, the basic guideline is: the later in Lent, the more pressing the pastoral need must be. We would never baptize at Sunday mass during Lent, but most of our baptisms happen outside mass anyway.
At a parish I used to be at, we had 4-6 baptisms every week. To not do them during Lent and let them pile up would have been disastrous.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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