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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Despite appearances candles are not banned at my church, it is just the health and safety assessment made by elders for their use tend to put off any would be candle lighters They involve several elders being and buckets of water and sand in places ready to extinguish them if things go wrong.

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Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
You're right Ken. Show-off intercessions and know-all preachers. The other week I had to sit through some old pensioner, ordained about 5 mins, to whom it had been revealed - beyond any doubt - what the evangelist was saying.

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Oh I put up with show-offs, and those who mean what they say, even if they disagree with me. But that "talk about it with the person sitting next to you" nonsense. It gives the illusion of allowing discussion while at the same time making sure its not heard. Its also excruciatingly embarrassing to vast numbers of people. Its embarrassing for the quite/introverted/shy/bored/asleep/thick who have nothing to say, and also embarrassing for the opiniated loudmouths like me who can talk till the cows come home and know perfectly well they are likely to bore the pants off the poor victim next to them, or else shock them with their real opinion. Its embarrassing for anyoine who is a newcomer, or a stranger, or has been coming for years and hasn't made any friends, or who just forgot your name or who is feeling sad, or feeling randy, or who just doesn't want to talk to you for whatever reason. For many people being asked to talk to a possibly unknown one or two people at short notice is a lot harder than talking to a large group because of the more personal nature of it. Its a horrible ploy. Congregation abuse. I hates it! I hates it for ever!


Its the post-modern fucking-Myers-Briggs-licking liberal bullshitters that reallyannoys me. And as for Fowler's "stages of faith" the socially controlling elitist crap that pretend to treat everyone as equals but in fact censors out all but the most watered-down levelled-out socially-acceptable boring ultera-liberal pap and so is in fact a way for the powerful to control the weak. No wonder some people turn to street robbery and crack cocaine.

And did I say I didn't like it?

I think I need a lie-down. Or a fag. Or a blood-pressure pill. Or a pint of cider. Maybe all four. It must be the heat.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
The "sidepeople" who refuse to hand over books. (Get out of the way and let me help myself.)

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The "suits" who patrol the side aisles during the liturgy.

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Readers who think they're orators. (You only bellow and make eye-contact when you read your own words. Otherwise just read it out calmly and clearly.)

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The rigmarole of policing who gets up when, how and why at Communion time.

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Clergy who can't shut up during the liturgy and who won't let you out without saying something - anything - at the end.

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Lay people who get offended when this doesn't happen.

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Originally posted by PD:
People who talk during the quiet bits and pauses during the service - such as the ablutions after Communion. Cellphone sociopaths are another pet hate of mine. The vintage one was someone who answered their louding ringing phone with the words 'Can't talk now - I am in church.' The worst cellphone sociopaths are usually retired guys whose next urgent appointment is with their cardiologist (unlike to occur on a Sunday morning) or their golfing buddies for a quick round (which should already have been set up!)

PD

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Originally posted by Martin L:

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The rigmarole of policing who gets up when, how and why at Communion time.

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We abolished the use of the ushers at communion, and our distribution time cut in half.

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Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
I think it's very sensible that you wait your turn, but that's your choice, isn't it? Nothing wrong with a queue or bit of a jumble if that's what people do.

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Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
...The "suits" who patrol the side aisles during the liturgy.

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Originally posted by Robin:

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Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
...The "suits" who patrol the side aisles during the liturgy.

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I've never encountered this. What is the point? Do they occasionally pounce on some victim who's having problems finding the right hymn, or answering his mobile phone? Or is it just a matter of distinguishing themselves from the humble folk in the pews?

Robin

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Originally posted by PD:
People who talk during the quiet bits and pauses during the service - such as the ablutions after Communion.

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Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
We all know that volumes could be - have been - written on congregational/clergy behaviour during those crucial hours on a Sunday morning.

I welcome here Any and All observations from Shipmates. Bearing in mine the fundamentals - "Less is more", "If it hinders don't do it" & "If it ain't broke don't fix it" - what goes on in our buildings?

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I've got a few. Sometimes, you get people wearing clothes that are some stylised version of 1st / 2nd century everyday-wear. Also, at some church services you see a small number of people (maybe even just one person) leading all the parts of the service while there's a talk given about everyone having an important part to play.

Finally, most church services seem to feature some sort of lecture, even though that's (on the whole) a really ineffective way of teaching people how to live their lives differently (like blessing those who curse us etc.).

* Ducks for cover *



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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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Originally posted by ken:

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Originally posted by PD:
People who talk during the quiet bits and pauses during the service - such as the ablutions after Communion.

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In the Church of England we call them "ordained clergy".

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

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Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
We all know that volumes could be - have been - written on congregational/clergy behaviour during those crucial hours on a Sunday morning.

I welcome here Any and All observations from Shipmates. Bearing in mine the fundamentals - "Less is more", "If it hinders don't do it" & "If it ain't broke don't fix it" - what goes on in our buildings?

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I've got a few. Sometimes, you get people wearing clothes that are some stylised version of 1st / 2nd century everyday-wear. Also, at some church services you see a small number of people (maybe even just one person) leading all the parts of the service while there's a talk given about everyone having an important part to play.

Finally, most church services seem to feature some sort of lecture, even though that's (on the whole) a really ineffective way of teaching people how to live their lives differently (like blessing those who curse us etc.).

* Ducks for cover *

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Originally posted by venbede:

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Originally posted by Martin L:

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The rigmarole of policing who gets up when, how and why at Communion time.

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We abolished the use of the ushers at communion, and our distribution time cut in half.

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Not my experience. I tend to sit near the front (somebody's got to) and trying to be a considerate sort of chap, I would wait before leaving my pew until all the people seated in front of me had left their places. At my last church, it was always the case that even in that short time, there was already a queue stretching to the back of the (smallish) church of people sitting behind me or at the back who had joined the queue.

If people behaved like that in supermarket queues there would be riots. Just wait your turn.

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Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
We all like a bit of theatre though, don't we...

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I've thought of another thing we do in church services that we don't at home. When we're with family or friends at home, we usually interact in terms of everyone feeling included and valued. But in church services, there can be the temptation to use only the best musicians, the best readers, the best ushers etc. I don't think it should be this way; technical excellence isn't the point (IMO).

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

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Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
We all like a bit of theatre though, don't we...

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Yep, I guess many of us do. But what we like and what is best for us aren't always the same thing...

I've thought of another thing we do in church services that we don't at home. When we're with family or friends at home, we usually interact in terms of everyone feeling included and valued. But in church services, there can be the temptation to use only the best musicians, the best readers, the best ushers etc. I don't think it should be this way; technical excellence isn't the point (IMO).

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Originally posted by Fr Weber:
At home, everyone is included and valued--but everyone is given tasks which accord with their talents and abilities.

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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Despite appearances candles are not banned at my church, it is just the health and safety assessment made by elders for their use tend to put off any would be candle lighters They involve several elders being and buckets of water and sand in places ready to extinguish them if things go wrong.

Jengie

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Sooo funny! So neurotic.
*

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Originally posted by Fidei Defensor:
Just out of interest, do you love these quirky folk really and laugh about their peculiarities, or are you pissed off by them? If the latter, so long as they're eligible for a visa, send them to my little pads, I'm grateful to God for anyone who turns up, and even gratefuler for people who are prepared to serve in some useful (eg ushering or service-sheet-handing-out) rôle. Behaviour modification is easier than recruitment.
And I hope that scripture readers jolly well do make eye contact. How can you read, for example, a few weeks ago, "But now is Christ risen" without establishing an emotional connection with your sisters and brothers in the pews? The wonder is that readers don't break into spontaneous gymnastics of joy at that sort of news.

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Originally posted by Mr. Rob:

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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Despite appearances candles are not banned at my church, it is just the health and safety assessment made by elders for their use tend to put off any would be candle lighters They involve several elders being and buckets of water and sand in places ready to extinguish them if things go wrong.

Jengie

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Sooo funny! So neurotic.
*

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Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
Years ago, when I came out to my mother as an ordinand, she warned me that "church people are very strange". I inwardly smiled and piously loved her. Now, of course, I realise she is damned right ...

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Originally posted by bib:
The folk who come into church and pointedly remark that the visitor is sitting in THEIR SEAT. It is amusing to notice from the choir stalls that most regular members of the congregation have favourite places to sit in church and rarely vary from these. Maybe we need a rule that you have to move to a different spot each Sunday or just for fun have a game of musical chairs.

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Originally posted by Oblatus:
What's especially great is to see someone grow into and flourish in a role for which there are expectations of competence: a teen (formerly of the reads-too-fast-and-sing-songily sort) who gains confidence and poise to become a fantastic lector, or someone with a speech impediment who does the same and is much helped by this experience. There can be a standard (clear, well-paced reading) and there can be patience for those aiming to achieve that standard.

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Originally posted by Oblatus:
What's especially great is to see someone grow into and flourish in a role for which there are expectations of competence: a teen (formerly of the reads-too-fast-and-sing-songily sort) who gains confidence and poise to become a fantastic lector, or someone with a speech impediment who does the same and is much helped by this experience. There can be a standard (clear, well-paced reading) and there can be patience for those aiming to achieve that standard.

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A religious community I know of has a member who has struggled with a stutter all his life, and he is given a regular place on the rota of officiants for Rosary and Vespers. His decidedly unrushed and somehwat labored style of leading the prayers helps the community focus, and they're very patient with him when a pause gets a little long. His recitation of his first vows was a sort of "King's Speech" moment and a triumph for him.

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Originally posted by Mamacita:

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Originally posted by Oblatus:
What's especially great is to see someone grow into and flourish in a role for which there are expectations of competence: a teen (formerly of the reads-too-fast-and-sing-songily sort) who gains confidence and poise to become a fantastic lector, or someone with a speech impediment who does the same and is much helped by this experience. There can be a standard (clear, well-paced reading) and there can be patience for those aiming to achieve that standard.

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Very true. Learning to serve in liturgical roles, while receiving good coaching and mentoring along the way, can help a young person develop that important sense of mastery, and it can also support spiritual development in a way that the usual Sunday School and Youth Group experiences don't always provide.

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A religious community I know of has a member who has struggled with a stutter all his life, and he is given a regular place on the rota of officiants for Rosary and Vespers. His decidedly unrushed and somehwat labored style of leading the prayers helps the community focus, and they're very patient with him when a pause gets a little long. His recitation of his first vows was a sort of "King's Speech" moment and a triumph for him.

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In my parish there is a family that has raised 6 children, three of whom are blind. Two of the blind children (they are all young adults now) were also born with a neurological disorder that causes them to speak slowly and with a flat, nasal tone. Throughout their older childhood and teenage years, these two individuals occasionally served as lectors. Their mom would Braille the readings for them and they would read from the lectern, with a parent at their side to assist. It was *not* perfect, but it was two young people offering their best to God.

And that's why a small part of me bristles over comments about technical perfection in the liturgy. High standards are important, yes. But so are patience and generosity, and (dare I throw in a buzzword) inclusion. It was a little challenging for the congregation to listen to the two young lectors I described above, and perhaps a bit startling for a visitor or newcomer, but I believe we were the better for it.

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I could not agree with you any more

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www.twitter.com/rhflan

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Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
I suppose for Evangelicals the use of incense is unthinkable, yet its use in worship has an explicit scriptural foundation. I find this all very amusing.

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Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:

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Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
I suppose for Evangelicals the use of incense is unthinkable, yet its use in worship has an explicit scriptural foundation. I find this all very amusing.

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That's funny, I thought it only started being used in Christendom to mask the odours of the great unwashed and a scriptural link to previous use in Judaic worship retrospectively adopted a few generations later.

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Originally posted by PD:
People who talk during the quiet bits and pauses during the service - such as the ablutions after Communion.

PD

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Originally posted by Comper's Child:

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Originally posted by PD:
People who talk during the quiet bits and pauses during the service - such as the ablutions after Communion.

PD

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My pew mate (who is admittedly getting a bit dotty) invariably begins to chatter as the priest (during the prayers before the entrance) intones "The Lord is in His Holy Temple - Let all the earth keep Silent Before Him". Then again he chatters at most every quiet moment, yet due to his age and feebleness I feel I mustn't abandon him...

[edited to add] The woman who lives across the street who brings her rather naughty and misbehaving children in at every high mass following the celebrant up the center aisle.

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