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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Liturgy for the rather young
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
So, if you were a member of a rather high church and wanted to introduce liturgy (Eucharistic, etc.) to the very young, how would you do it? As I watch an almost four year old child exist/participate in a high-church worship, I have been thinking about this. Many of the words of liturgy are rather long and the concepts are often hard. But probably no one (child or not) wants to hear a huge translation of the liturgy spouted at them and a line by line explanation would disrupt everyone. One can take the kids out of service (Sunday school etc.) but that would really just avoid introducing them to liturgy. One can't even just ask the kids to join in and ask for explanations later, because kids that age can't read. If the kid memorizes the liturgy and joins in great, but I can't imagine that's what most kids do naturally.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Give them "landmarks" to watch for in the service. These could be particular actions ("Tell me when you see the pastor do such-and-such") or just whispered comments like "See, now we're going to talk to God and say sorry for the bad things we've done. [pause] Now we get to hear that God loves and forgives us..." and so forth. You aren't doing a line by line, word by word exposition, just a tag for each meaning chunk. You can adjust how often you do this to the individual child's attention span and interest.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
There are lots of resources for this: books, Communion cubes, etc. That way the child knows what's going on when and why it's important.
There's also you and what you do: doing things is important, and kids love doing things right.
Having an opportunity to be part of the liturgy--as a boat-bearer, for instance. There's a five year old in one of my congregations who comes up after everyone has received and helps me with the ablutions.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
The chancel crew that prepares communion for our church includes a two-year-old, a four-year-old, a six-year-old, and me. And my eleven-year-old son, who helps keep them in line.
They love it, and are currently very cross with me that we don't have the Lord's Supper every week. As we have no rationale for this but old custom, we may make the switch...
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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IconiumBound
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# 754
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Posted
LC, You have hit on the essential value of involving the very young in the Liturgy. To them and their parents it is a way of "playing" (with God). This is learning for the kids and their parents.
We have had a service for toddlers and their parents for about six years and it has proved an important stepping stone for further involvement.
[ 11. June 2012, 12:28: Message edited by: IconiumBound ]
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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the Ænglican
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# 12496
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Posted
Having nurtured my two girls through it, I totally agree with LC on tagging meaning bits.
Also, I let them choose where to sit and they inevitably choose the front row so that they can see (and hear and smell) everything that's going on. Too, as soon as they could stand and sit without (excessive) wiggling and they had memorized the Lord's Prayer and the Creed, we put them to work on the altar, first as boat girls, then as acolytes.
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The subject of religious ceremonial is one which has a special faculty for stirring strong feeling. --W. H. Frere
Posts: 177 | From: Baltimore-ish | Registered: Apr 2007
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Hairy Biker
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# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
If the kid memorizes the liturgy and joins in great, but I can't imagine that's what most kids do naturally.
Mine do. I used to point to where we were in the book on the days weren't out at "junior church", but they didn't care because they know all the words by rote. That's what children do at that age - they learn stuff.
(and I'd agree with all who've said keep them involved. The worst thing to do is to have a separate liturgy in a different building for the children. Mine hate it, and would rather stay in church, but they get dragged off by well-meaning children's leaders.)
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Gwai, even if your little one cannot read, make sure that the little one obtains a hymnal and a bulletin on the way in the door, just like everyone else. It feels like you are being left out when you don't receive what everyone else does and when you don't have the same tools to use as the rest of those assembled.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
My church has a Godly Play program, which seems to introduce the kids to liturgy. In the class space, they have a circular calendar that allows the kids to see the liturgical season they are in. They also have an altar with a chalice and various other trappings, which I believe they use to introduce the Eucharist. We invite children to sit at the front during the Eucharist. And we have started training young people as acolytes.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
Thank you all! I have been reading this regularly, but didn't reply to now as I ran around crazily (moving in a couple days and brand new infant.) I admit that, as Martin L gathers, I am definitely thinking as a mother (of an almost 4) as well as a church member. She doesn't read and though it would be in character for her to have memorized at least some of the liturgy, she sure hasn't said any of the speaking bits. Also, as a small church, we only have a few roles for the lay and all of them have to be done by those at least old enough to read. (The cross, for instance, is far taller than I am, so a young kid could never carry it.)
Still, I'm get what you all are saying about inclusion of children and explanations. I think we have been doing it some but not generally enough. One child I have seen loves to recite the lord's prayer with the grown-ups during communion. Similarly, my daughter loves to cross herself and to "pray with candles" etc.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
A certain amount of creativity (combined with an opposite-of-anal church leadership) and little kids can do more than I ever thought. I mean, take the cross thing. Why not have an adult or older child carry the thing while a wee one hangs on to the bottom and "helps"? Same with the readings. If you're allowed, bring a Bible from home or the church pew, have the wee one carry it up and stand by your side proudly while you read. Then she can carry it down again. (If you do any of this, you'll want to make sure the kids in the church take turns so everyone gets to do it.)
Kids love to stand by the pastor at the door and shake hands (at least for a minute or two). And they are very good at fetching bulletins to people who forget to pick one up at the door (esp. if you remembered to take an extra one yourself for just that purpose).
One Lent we had a special banner hanging in the chancel with a cross outline on it that was filled in using large squares, one for each Wednesday night service, each square containing one of the seven words from the cross and backed with velcro. The first night the cross was empty. Someone's toddler took the felt block with the text assigned for the night, walked up, and gravely stuck it on the cross (with a little help from Grandma). The next Wednesday it was another kid's turn to add a block. They loved it. And paid more attention than if they hadn't been involved...
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Thinking back, one caution. If your kid pays too much attention in church, you may find yourself being forcefed popcorn while you toddler says, solemnly, "Take, eat..."
It happened to us.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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LutheranChik
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# 9826
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Posted
When I was a small LutheranChik, our Sunday School classes were always preceded by a 15-minute children's devotional that included liturgical responses: "The Lord is nigh unto all them that call upon him." "To all that call upon him in truth." "O Lord, open thou my lips." "And my mouth shall show forth thy praise." I still remember it.
I've heard good things about the Godly Play program. Not too long ago I visited a church that uses that in its children's Sunday School, and was really impressed that some creative volunteers in the congregation built a child-size pulpit and lectern and sewed/embroidered some delightful vestments and paraments. Since most churchgoing kids I know have "played church" at home (including yours truly, once unsuccessfully attempting to baptize the cats) it makes sense, I think, to build on that impulse.
Like the other LC, we also don't have age limits for children who wish to help with the service; we just pair them up with a helper.
[ 13. June 2012, 01:24: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Since most churchgoing kids I know have "played church" at home (including yours truly, once unsuccessfully attempting to baptize the cats) it makes sense, I think, to build on that impulse.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) Oh man, I bet they loved that.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Thinking back, one caution. If your kid pays too much attention in church, you may find yourself being forcefed popcorn while you toddler says, solemnly, "Take, eat..."
When my boyfriend was a little boy, he communicated his teddies with cola and flying saucers. Well, they are like wafers!
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
(The cross, for instance, is far taller than I am, so a young kid could never carry it.)
Then get a little one for when the children want to join in. Ours is little more than a broom handle with two crossed sticks on the end. That gets used by children, and the big silver one gets used when the big people are serving.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I can recommend Godly Play for a children's group. Some of them (with a little adaption) can be used in a service which includes the whole church.
As for introducing high liturgy to the very young, I can't help. Our church is hardly high, if we went any lower there'd be danger of entering the first circle of Hell.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Arch Anglo Catholic
Shipmate
# 15181
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Posted
We're a fairly 'spiky' bunch and our principal service is always Eucharistic.
However, for Family Service one adult server remains on duty and small (and I mean small) children perform the rest of the server's duties which they really seem to enjoy.
We have a special (simply made) child size processional cross and small candlesticks. They are very clearly told that they can't make a mistake - the only mistakes happen when the big server forgets to tell them what to do, or where to do it, which is liberating!
One of our very Catholic older priests has invited all the children up to the altar and gently explained the Eucharsit with their help. He explained that we are welcoming a very special guest and friend to our meal today. Who could it be? You guessed it, and so did the children. He then asked what we do when we have a special meal. We wash our hands (so he did with help from servers) and then lay the table (he prepared the altar etc.) I'm sure you get the idea.
The only 'complaints' received were from adults who wanted to come up too.
Just a thought...!
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
If your church uses the same setting for the sung parts of the ordinary each week, you could start by learning those (as learning words with a tune is much easier). Also, often repeated exchanges like "The Lord be with you / [whatever your response is!]" or what you use for the intercessions.
Mainly, though, looking around at what I see from kids that age at most churches, if she's enjoying the color, music and movement that's plenty enough for now.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Earwig:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Since most churchgoing kids I know have "played church" at home (including yours truly, once unsuccessfully attempting to baptize the cats) it makes sense, I think, to build on that impulse.
Oh man, I bet they loved that.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Thinking back, one caution. If your kid pays too much attention in church, you may find yourself being forcefed popcorn while you toddler says, solemnly, "Take, eat..."
When my boyfriend was a little boy, he communicated his teddies with cola and flying saucers. Well, they are like wafers!
And our oldest still under four years old lined up all his 'cuddlies' and went round offering them "a drink of blood"! ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) On holiday he processed round my sister-in-law's flat holding a tennis racquet as a processional cross, and at nursery amused his carer by launching out on singing the Gloria (fortunately she knew the setting)
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
One of my sons was very good at memorising words (which came in very handy when he used to take part in plays). So, by the age of four, he could recite enough of the Eucharistic prayer for it to make sense. But he was rather worried that we were drinking blood and eating flesh. We explained it in a decidedly Protestant mode at that point!
Our church has been trialling new Eucharistic prayers - one especially suitable for use with young families. So it would be worth looking on one of the Anglican websites for information about these.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
I remember my daughter singing the Agnus Dei very loudly in a queue in Woolworth's, at the age of 3.
(She didn't sing it in church the following Sunday, however; instead she decided to have a rather audible conversation about dog poo during a quiet bit of the Eucharistic prayers. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) )
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
I remember my daughter, aged 3, standing on a chair (or was it a pew?) at the SSJE and saying, 'Say the Nicene Creed now!' The regulars there weren't terribly indulgent of such behavior though.
The son of a friend was much more precocious though--he was censing things with the bathplug and chain before he was two.
[ 16. June 2012, 17:45: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
The 2yo son of a vicar friend was seen at the top of the stairs at home, potty aloft, proclaiming homonymically:
quote:
The potty of our Lord Jesus Christ
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Since most churchgoing kids I know have "played church" at home (including yours truly, once unsuccessfully attempting to baptize the cats) it makes sense, I think, to build on that impulse.
Ah but you are a Lutheran so you would have just splashed some water on the cat. Now if you grew up in a church that practiced full immersion.. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Hello and good evening.
Yup. Me. Back (well, putting my head round the door).
And pissed off.
I've just had to tell a PCC, with tremored voice, that we are going to start having to look at other churches. This is because we now have three children who currently attend church and we'd like them to have any intention of doing so once they're old enough not to, which as things stand is about as likely as me voting Tory because they're bored out of their tiny minds by the tedium that passes for a service. The crunch came when I asked whether visiting preachers were told that the first Sunday in the month was meant to be All Age because I'd found it rather tedious to the extent that I'd kept myself from gnawing my own arm off in desperate boredom by the fun task of trying to keep the kids from doing the same, only noisily. Some of them thought it had been all age and child friendly. At that point I despaired.
We've got the communion cubes and the communion booklets for children and all the rest, but they still find it about as engaging as I find Messages to All Staff from the Chief Executive.
So my answer to the OP is I wouldn't. High Church liturgical worship works for mainly older adults committed to the faith. In my experience, n=3, it bores children shitless. I now have two out of the three who whine at the mere suggestion of church, and one who would if she could see past the bike ride there. And it's because of too many Sunday mornings bored out of their skulls. Problem is I'd also rather eat my own earwax than go to some evangelical shack with arms in the air and music that talent forgot.
Bit ranty for a first post back, I suppose, but there you go. I'm fucking knackered and fed up with the whole damned thing and wish I was an atheist. Just can't get rid of this Jesus person, that's the problem.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Welcome back, Karl. Yes it is tricky to find a middle to high church which also makes the service interesting for children. Don't you feel the tedium would be reduced somewhat if they could go out to a vestry group for part of the service, thus making the liturgical part much shorter, this way they could take part in the liturgy but also do some more age-appropriate activities? Or is this not on offer in your area?
Could you play word bingo where the kids have to listen out for particular words in the service? Our choir master used to do enjoy doing this with the younger choristers.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Welcome back, Karl. Yes it is tricky to find a middle to high church which also makes the service interesting for children. Don't you feel the tedium would be reduced somewhat if they could go out to a vestry group for part of the service, thus making the liturgical part much shorter, this way they could take part in the liturgy but also do some more age-appropriate activities? Or is this not on offer in your area?
Could you play word bingo where the kids have to listen out for particular words in the service? Our choir master used to do enjoy doing this with the younger choristers.
Mrs Liberal Backslider and I and two other volunteers have done a Sunday School for the past seven years. We're worn out. No-one else is willing to commit to do it. We've got people for one Sunday in October and one in November and that's it.
People say they want children in the church but they are unwilling to do anything that will actually achieve that. It's like kids wanting a rabbit but not being willing to muck it out and feed it and exercise it and the rest. It's the idea they like, not the reality.
[ 20. September 2012, 21:58: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
High Church liturgical worship works for mainly older adults committed to the faith. In my experience, n=3, it bores children shitless.
Not if you dress them up and give them candles and things to carry.
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Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
High Church liturgical worship works for mainly older adults committed to the faith. In my experience, n=3, it bores children shitless.
Not if you dress them up and give them candles and things to carry.
We tried that with the oldest one. He hated it because he was on show at the front and had to be even more still and quiet and so was even more bored.
Look, sorry if I'm sounding a bit prickly at the moment, but we've tried the obvious stuff. The problem is more serious than that. All we seem to be achieving at the moment is putting them off the whole idea.
[ 20. September 2012, 22:26: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Should add - for some reason my children appear to be a totally different species to those described in this thread.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
It's great to see you back, Karl. Not that we ever interacted much, but I've missed you!
My sympathies re. the children in church thing. In my experience (not as a parent), formal and/or high church works wonderfully well for a certain type of child, of whom there are many examples on this thread. But having watched my own happy little nephew struggle with it, it doesn't seem to work at all for the active, practically-minded, and sociable little extroverts among us.
I hear you as regards "evangelical shacks", but as you know, they tend to be more geared up for children than more traditional churches. However, the more clued-up ones have worked out that Sunday mornings are not the be-all-and-end-all of worship. The one I worked for as a children's minister held a Friday afternoon children's worship service, where we sang their songs, played games, and made a lot of noise - parents didn't attend! We ran lunchtime clubs in schools, where they learned Bible stories through activity and film; and holiday clubs in the summer. We also held a Messy Church every now and then on a Saturday morning (Messy Church is also popular with 'higher' churches). It might be worth looking round your locale to see what else is on offer during the week, even if it means dotting around a bit from church to church.
I know that doesn't solve your Sunday morning dilemma. All I can suggest there is shopping around a little, and not necessarily dismissing all "evangelical shacks" out of hand. Sure, there will be some that you could not tolerate, but others on the 'open evangelical' end of the spectrum might be okay for Sunday morning worship. You could also try some other denomination. See it as a temporary thing, perhaps, and top yourself up with some more liturgical worship at an evening service or during the week.
I'm sorry if I have spent a whole post stating the obvious. No doubt you have considered most of these options anyway, and I don't know what is available in your locale. But your children are seeing in you a wonderful example of faithful worship, and that will stick with them far more than the boredom of any one church.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Son #1 is highly introverted; I expect that liturgical styles will probably appeal to him in adulthood, but at the moment it doesn't engage him, and if you don't engage an introvert on their terms, they won't pick it up from other people around them. I'm much the same.
What I'm concerned about, above all, is not just avoiding their boredom, but doing more than just occupying them. I blogged on this here: http://agnosticchristian.wordpress.com back in April - specifically
quote:
Originally Blogged by me
...ideally a “junior church” should be doing what the main body of the church is doing – prayer, learning, worship and so on – in a child-oriented manner (the clue’s in the name). Not time-filling activities whilst everyone else is doing these things. This is because these things are done in order to grow, develop and sustain the faith of the congregation. If children are not given the opportunities to do the same things, then they will not have a faith to grow, develop or sustain when they grow out of the Sunday School
I have a deep-seated aversion to evangelical styles, unfortunately. As a fully paid-up pinko commie lefty bastard I frequently find myself more of a mind with the very people often being decried from the pulpits in such places. Despite being a guitarist of a folk-rocky disposition, my response to seeing a band at the front of a church is a quick 180, or if occasion forbids, a check for an easy and discrete escape route should I need to fake a sudden attack of pancreatitis. It's my baggage, I suppose, but there it is. But you're dead right that they're the ones set up for kids. Whenever the diocese does any youth work training or similar it's always a pretty evangelical sort of do, because it's mostly them organising, contributing and attending it. I'm pretty sure that the families in our village (pop. 2500) are going to places like that, because I know they're not going to ours (av. congregation 30, av. age about 75). Secularists (with whom I'm generally in agreement) make a lot of fuss about church schools but I think in this case they get excited about bugger all - our primary school is CofE, the Rector does an assembly each week and the head is on our PCC, but we never see the kids on a Sunday morning ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
There's a church in the next village that manages a Sunday School every week except when they have an all age service once a month. Will give it a spin.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
It sounds like you are working things out. I hope the village church turns out well. Best of luck with it all, and a few prayers too.
And I couldn't agree more with your blog post.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I sincerely hope Karl finds what he and his family is looking for. But it's an interesting topic in its own right, so I'd like to see the thread continue. (And do let us know how you get on, Karl.)
I wonder now where we all get the idea from that you HAVE to take your children to church every single Sunday - surely there must be lots of creative alternatives, ranging from alternating and just taking the kids along occasionally, through to only attending social events, so the kids get to know parishioners in fun situations as people worth spending time with.
I am fascinated to see how many of our young people choose to come back to church when they've left home and gone to university, not because they love the liturgy as such - more because they know the people at church care about them and are therefore considered to be members of their extended family. If you get the chance, I think this is what needs to be aimed at, rather than enforced weekly attendance at something that doesn't interest them.
Meanwhile, this is a new initiative at our church which sounds interesting for those with very young children. I shall be interested to hear how it progresses:
Tale@Teatime - Come and join us on Sunday in the parish centre, 4 until 5 pm. Families and all ages welcome. Tea and cake served from 3.45pm.
In addition, we are getting a gap-year student to be a youth worker for a year, from another church. This may be an option for churches whose members don't feel able to work with this group, so is worth investigating.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
My daughter was one of those who liked the liturgy and the fascinating church building. At around age 8 she used to try and read the Latin inscriptions during sermons when she got bored of listening and find people to translate them for her afterwards - that was St Peter's Church, Monkwearmouth, where Bede started out. Before that, in the West Country, we had a children's version of the ASB service booklet she followed along with and alternating Sunday School sessions that covered the same readings as the main service did.
Unfortunately when we moved here the yoof workers insisted on dragging her out to what she reckoned was Noddy Sunday school that she hated - it didn't tie into the church readings or anything the church was doing. She was also used to having quite sophisticated discussions about religion by then - I'd been one of the Sunday school leaders in the West Country church. She'd have been much happier in the choir and staying in or as an acolyte. But we couldn't convince the yoof leaders that she did, and the same yoof leaders insisted on dragging the acolytes and choir members out, although that's changed now. Net result of that was she dropped out and wouldn't return until she couldn't be inveigled out. She now, as a graduate, attends mass from choice and did as a student.
I do think we have a huge problem that a lot of what we do as youth work doesn't tie into what the church service is doing. Here, certainly when my daughter was of an age to attend them and she's only 24 now, the people who were running the youth groups saw what they were doing as teaching the young people to be Christians. And of the main leaders then, their children are now in non-conformist churches if they are in church at all. Rather than starting from the assumption we did in Dorset, that if families are attending this church they agree with what it's doing so we need to tie the youth work into this, a lot of youth work seems to be using off the shelf bought in materials, and not looking critically at how well it works with the church as a whole. I'm saying this through gritted teeth as I wrote all the materials for 3 years of leading the pram service (mid-week service for pre-school children) and did a lot of work trying to make it relate to the main service - so much so that I worked with the crèche leaders sharing materials so they could use them during their Sunday morning session.
If we create this disconnect in what we're doing, we're going to continue to have a major problem.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Sorry Karl, I read your blog after I ranted.
Nowt to be sorry for.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Lymasa
Shipmate
# 11397
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I am fascinated to see how many of our young people choose to come back to church when they've left home and gone to university, not because they love the liturgy as such - more because they know the people at church care about them and are therefore considered to be members of their extended family. If you get the chance, I think this is what needs to be aimed at, rather than enforced weekly attendance at something that doesn't interest them.
Hear, hear
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I wish I were a jellyfish
That cannot fall down stairs. . .
GK Chesterton
Posts: 191 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: May 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Tried the parish church of the next parish along. Sod's Law that they normally have about 30 kids but this week they were all away independently and ours were the only ones there.
Other than that it might work for us. 10am service, which is not so early it feels like a school day when getting the kids out, and not so late that you can't get on with things. Junior Church or All-Age service every week, and standard (for me) MoR liturgy; mostly trad hymns with the occasional more modern number. Congregation about the same size as our parish church, but better age spread. Mysteriously they manage to have a choir who can sing, and even manage the deep magic of harmony.
Even singing Meekness and Majesty didn't seem too dreadful a penance.
It does answer the question of where all the other families in our village go. A number of kids from our village school are apparently often there.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
Sounds like it would be more up the kids' street (and I might like it better when I visit! sings"Meekness and majesty, manhood and deity...Bow down and worship,..." ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) ).
Presumably you are trying it again this coming weekend when all their children aren't away?
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
Sounds like it would be more up the kids' street (and I might like it better when I visit! sings"Meekness and majesty, manhood and deity...Bow down and worship,..." ).
Presumably you are trying it again this coming weekend when all their children aren't away?
That's the plan. You might enjoy it a bit more, mind, it's a mile and half bike ride instead of walkable. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
Sounds like it would be more up the kids' street (and I might like it better when I visit! sings"Meekness and majesty, manhood and deity...Bow down and worship,..." ).
Presumably you are trying it again this coming weekend when all their children aren't away?
That's the plan. You might enjoy it a bit more, mind, it's a mile and half bike ride instead of walkable.
Sings, after (very hypothetical) bike ride, to the tune of Meekness & Maj.:,
"My @r$e is agony, man, I need therapy...! Sit down to worship? No, I'd rather stand!... I'd rather stand!"
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'Angels and demons dancing in my head,
Lunatics and monsters underneath my bed' ('Totem', Rush)
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Well, you're not going on the child seat on the back of mine.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Why this constant obsession to invent/present "Liturgy Lite" for the young?
My children - now late teenagers - voted with their feet when very young by refusing to come to the Family Service. Why? "Its just the vicar talking like a teacher and asking stupid questions that he knows the answer to in the middle." Given the choice, they preferred CHORAL MATINS (I kid you not) because "the music is better and you get the bits from the Bible you don't usually get" - think they meant OT lessons about Daniel, etc. I think what they were trying to say is "don't patronise us".
Another thought: since we still think Shakespeare is suitable for children, why do we try to prevent them hearing the language of the Bard when it comes to church?
Third thought: Our area is rich in CofE secondary schools which totally skews attendance figures because of the attendance rules for admissions. Rather than asking how many families with children attend, someone should check-up on how many children still go to church after the age of, say, 12. My local church has a 75-80% turnover of congregation every couple of years, corresponding neatly with the 2 year attendance requirement for a school place.
I'd say let children go to "normal" church: and high church liturgy can be as exciting to a small child as the theatre (all those processions, costumes, incense, etc). Don't worry too much about explaining - you'd be amazed at what they'll absorb and anything they're unsure of will be explained at confirmation classes when they're 10 or 11.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Why this constant obsession to invent/present "Liturgy Lite" for the young?
Because of our experience of our kids loathing the existing liturgy, hating going to church and giving every impression that the moment they don't have to go, they won't.
quote:
My children - now late teenagers - voted with their feet when very young by refusing to come to the Family Service. Why? "Its just the vicar talking like a teacher and asking stupid questions that he knows the answer to in the middle." Given the choice, they preferred CHORAL MATINS (I kid you not) because "the music is better and you get the bits from the Bible you don't usually get" - think they meant OT lessons about Daniel, etc. I think what they were trying to say is "don't patronise us".
Either your kids or mine or both are very strange.
quote:
Another thought: since we still think Shakespeare is suitable for children, why do we try to prevent them hearing the language of the Bard when it comes to church?
Because they have to virtually have it translated when they read Shakespeare and similarly it's hard to understand in the liturgy?
quote:
Third thought: Our area is rich in CofE secondary schools which totally skews attendance figures because of the attendance rules for admissions. Rather than asking how many families with children attend, someone should check-up on how many children still go to church after the age of, say, 12. My local church has a 75-80% turnover of congregation every couple of years, corresponding neatly with the 2 year attendance requirement for a school place.
I'd say let children go to "normal" church: and high church liturgy can be as exciting to a small child as the theatre (all those processions, costumes, incense, etc). Don't worry too much about explaining - you'd be amazed at what they'll absorb and anything they're unsure of will be explained at confirmation classes when they're 10 or 11.
That's nice for those for whom it's true. OTOH I see very bored children at church who are having to be kept entertained by colouring books and toys and stuff lest they eat their own left leg in desperation at the tedium.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Karl - why not give up the struggle then?
Mine were turned-off for a while but are now drifting back. And perhaps mine understood because they'd been watching classic (Olivier, etc) Shakespeare films from a fairly young age. Oh, and they were allowed to be sidesmen from the age of 6, which made them feel valued...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I see very bored children at church who are having to be kept entertained by colouring books and toys and stuff lest they eat their own left leg in desperation at the tedium.
Director of Christian Formation reporting in. Actually, providing young children with quiet activities is not a bad thing. Just about every parish I know sets out some crayons and coloring pages to keep the little kids productively occupied during the long parts like the sermon and communion. We have small drawstring bags containing little-kid supplies, as well as a children's bulletin that has a picture to color and simple word puzzles, all based on the gospel passage of the day. Children using such materials are still aware of what's going on around them, and this is important. You don't want them so completely absorbed that they zone out totally (which is what happens when Mom hands them her iPhone and lets them play Angry Birds during communion).
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Karl - why not give up the struggle then?
Because it seems like the easy option, and...
quote:
Mine were turned-off for a while but are now drifting back.
...because I cannot imagine that happening.
quote:
And perhaps mine understood because they'd been watching classic (Olivier, etc) Shakespeare films from a fairly young age.
I think that's pretty unusual. Something else I cannot imagine my kids doing.
quote:
Oh, and they were allowed to be sidesmen from the age of 6, which made them feel valued...
My eldest was a boat boy for a few services. It didn't make him feel valued; it made him feel bored and frustrated, because he had to just sit there when not doing something and like me he just doesn't do sitting doing nothing.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I see very bored children at church who are having to be kept entertained by colouring books and toys and stuff lest they eat their own left leg in desperation at the tedium.
Director of Christian Formation reporting in. Actually, providing young children with quiet activities is not a bad thing. Just about every parish I know sets out some crayons and coloring pages to keep the little kids productively occupied during the long parts like the sermon and communion. We have small drawstring bags containing little-kid supplies, as well as a children's bulletin that has a picture to color and simple word puzzles, all based on the gospel passage of the day. Children using such materials are still aware of what's going on around them, and this is important. You don't want them so completely absorbed that they zone out totally (which is what happens when Mom hands them her iPhone and lets them play Angry Birds during communion).
I'm not terribly convinced, at least not for mine. If I talk to them after such a service they generally haven't a clue what was going on. And they still get through the material quickly, or get fed up with it, and get fractious anyway.
I'm beginning to conclude that I have particularly challenging kids in this regard.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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