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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Weekday Eucharist
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
The other day I attended a weekday eucharist, which is a special treat for me. One aspect I admire about weekday eucharist is that it doesn't really matter where one goes (a low church place, MOTR, high church), it is going to be virtually if not exactly identical in almost any Episcopal church.
There is one aspect of variation that I occasionally encounter: the sermon. Although I am proudly Lutheran and we tend to pride ourselves in our preaching, those who have come to know me through my posts over the years won't be surprised to find out that I do not look forward to sermons at weekday eucharists. They almost invariably seem to be off-the-cuff or read straight from a book, the latter of which was the case at the service I attended the other day.
I guess I am hoping for a two-fold purpose for this thread:
1) Have you discovered a magical formula for the sermon at a short weekday liturgy? Tell your secrets!
2) What are your feelings (or if you prefer those of your denomination or local church) about the necessity of a sermon?
*And please interpret my use of the word "sermon" to include any variation thereof: homily, meditation, whatever.
[ 27. June 2012, 18:12: Message edited by: Martin L ]
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Corvo
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# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
2) What are your feelings (or if you prefer those of your denomination or local church) about the necessity of a sermon?
Our vicar tells of celebrating a weekday eucharist at a historic church (which usually attracted only a handful of people) to which a coach load of interdenominational visitors turned up.
When he told them afterwards that he had never seen so many in the side chapel a Methodist visitor asked why he hadn't taken the opportunity to preach a spontaneous sermon, a Salvationist asked why they hadn't sung a hymn, and an Anglican why he hadn't taken a collection.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
It tends to be a homily if you get anything at all. I used to like the midweek ones at St. Botolph's, Bishopsgate when we were there on Wednesdays, as it was obvious the priest had taken time to preach something as worthwhile as if it had been a Sunday.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Our priest gives 'short' (10-15 minute) homilies at both weekday Eucharists (Wednesday evening and Saturday morning), though I think he does have a tendency sometimes to ramble a bit or to repeat himself. Five minutes is more than enough IMNSHO, and I'd be quite happy if the homily was omitted - certainly on Wednesday evenings, when I'm tired and wanna go home!
OTOH, Father comes from an Evangelical and Bible-based background, and is also a retired schoolmaster, so I can understand his desire to teach us......
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Our priest reads about the person we're commemorating that day from 'Holy Women, Holy Men' at the beginning of the service (he used to do it at the sermon time, but this actually works out nicely.)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Although preaching is optional at weekday masses, I've never known anyone in my community say a midweek mass without at least something, although I know of other Catholic priests that skip the homily. Even a few weeks ago, when a bunch of us went on a fishing trip, we had mass together each day and whoever presided preached for a few minutes.
Midweek homilies are normally shorter (~3 min.s in most parishes I know). They also get less preparation. One hour of prep per minute of preaching works fine for the Sunday homily, but there's never time for that midweek. As the lectio is truly continua and the crowd is normally more stable, there's more opportunity for a homily series. You can also do saint-based preaching.
Often it comes out more informal: I know a decent number of preachers that will use manuscript and ambo on Sundays, but go with notes or no aids and come closer to the people during the week.
I'm increasingly coming to the view that midweek homilies are actually a different genre to Sunday homilies for these kinds of reasons, even though they share a lot in common. They provide different challenges and different opportunities to proclaim God's saving work for us in Christ.
[ 27. June 2012, 20:39: Message edited by: Hart ]
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
Our priest usually gives a short sermon at weekday masses although the other priests at the church don't. (I think it's maybe because he's ex CoE and the others are not). Last night he just read a short poem. I like having a sermon because due to work commitments I don't always get to Sunday mass and I like to learn.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
Our priest usually gives a short sermon at weekday masses although the other priests at the church don't. (I think it's maybe because he's ex CoE and the others are not). Last night he just read a short poem. I like having a sermon because due to work commitments I don't always get to Sunday mass and I like to learn.
Bravo to your priest!
Sounds like he is ex C of E ("Can't stop sermonising!" ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ). He seems to be making sense and guiding you, which is the whole point of a sermon, which many clerics, wishing to impress, ignore.
I find the quiet, no sermon, participative early morning Eucharist knocks my socks off. Changes the day, changes the world.
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Well...
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
I am afraid that one of the reasons why I frequent midweek services is that I am spared sermons. Of hundreds I have heard over the years, fewer than two dozen were worth listening to, and perhaps only four stay in my memory as having been insightful and helpful.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I think if I had my druthers I would not preach on weekdays unless I have a compelling reason to do so. That said, I have a rather guilty conscience about breaking the Bread without breaking the Word also, so on the whole I would conclude I am conflicted about the matter.
One one thing I do not like - other than the potted bio of the saint of the day - is the sort of three to five minutes half-homilies or sermonettes one hears in some places. I am afraid to say this, but I tend to believe that a consistent diet of half sermons results in half-Christians unless they have been thoroughly catechised by a tribe of storm trooper nuns.
On the other hand, I like preaching and according to some folks I am reasonably good at it. The difficulty I run into is that with the 0:59:59 rule that applies in my parish preaching a full sermon - as opposed to half an effort - is difficult even on a Sunday. I find that should the Epistle or Gospel be longer than half a dozen verses it is very difficult to cover all the material adequately. I have developed a habit of keeping the first two hymns short in order to make more time for preaching, and I am careful not to waste words. So in the end, the discipline of keeping it to 12-15 minutes is probably very good for me.
PD
[ 28. June 2012, 05:12: Message edited by: PD ]
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
I think Hart speaks wisely. Three minutes is about the maximum for a low mass. And it is a different form than a Sunday or holy day sermon. It is truly the case that the homily at a low mass should have exactly one big fat point.
Also, some celebrants have got the necessary gift and the others should not be brow beaten into trying to fake it.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
And, as with any Sermon, it should not be the time for the priest to offload his resentments onto the captive congregants. If they haven't got anything worth saying, better not to say it.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
The times I went to weekday Eucharists, they were without a sermon/homily. I think this is the way I prefer it, because it allows me to concentrate more on the Liturgy.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
I don't think I've ever been to a normal weekday Eucharist (i.e. not a special holy day service) at which a sermon or homily was preached. Deo Gratias! A good 20 minute Anglo-Catholic low mass suits me fine.
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
Weekday RC Masses in English feature little or no preaching. Three minutes ("A Few Holy Words") for those who do, especially at morning Masses, and are conscious of departure times. Spanish evening weekday Masses might get five or six minutes, or maybe none at all. Latin Masses at EF shacks usually have no sermon, unless it is a feast day.
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uffda
Shipmate
# 14310
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Posted
Reading through the posts so far, reminds me of the reasons why weekday eucharist in the Lutheran Church is not the norm. A Eucharist in the Lutheran understanding is a celebration of
Word and Sacrament, and the celebration of the Word normally includes an exposition of the readings. Most of the posters so far, seem to treat the sermon as an option and not as a fundamental part of the eucharistic service.
While a long sermon may not be best, some presentation of our need for God's grace, is, to me, a necessary part of the service. It's important to consider that daily prayer originated in the early church, while daily eucharist had it's origins in monastic or cathedral communities.
Lutherans have trouble with a purely devotional understanding of the eucharist, for its tendency to objectify the Mass, turning it into a work. I have no qualms about weekday eucharistic celebrations. In seminary weekday eucharist was the norm, along with morning prayer or service of the word. It always included a robust sermon.
This may be one area where Lutherans and Anglicans, so united in many matters liturgical, pull in different directions.
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Wm Dewy
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# 16712
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by uffda:
... some presentation of our need for God's grace, is, to me, a necessary part of the service. It's important to consider that daily prayer originated in the early church, while daily eucharist had it's origins in monastic or cathedral communities.
Surely the prayers of the people present to God and to ourselves something of our need for God’s grace. The early church might have met together for prayer often, but do we think they preached at each other? I thought preaching in new testament times was to make converts to the Faith, not to lecture the already convinced.
Augustine the Aleut’s post summarizes my thoughts pretty closely. I have been moved by the reading of scripture, the words in the prayer book and and hymns, but the sermon? Seldom if ever.
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"And harmoniums and barrel - organs be miserable--what shall I call 'em ? - miserable machines for such a divine thing as music!"
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
One of the neat things about being a Lutheran is that everything is optional!* Sometimes the omission of one thing serves to clarify or call attention to others. If it would encourage more frequent church services by taking the pressure off the clergy to prepare something lengthy, then I am all in favor of omitting the sermon on a weekday. If they can pull off a very short sermon (the basic premise of this thread), then more power to them, but this would probably take seminary training and a comedic hook to pull the pastor off-stage is s/he goes too long.
I do feel that the Sunday morning service has lost quite a bit of effectiveness in reaching people at an accessible time, and that shorter non-Sunday services are the way to go.
As far as other groups go, I do recall that the late Pope John Paul II was obsessively in favor of the homily at every celebration of Mass, so it's not just us who are a bit sermon-happy.
*I'm afraid that in Lutheranism, this often continues "everything is optional, except the sermon, the announcements, and the anthem"! And I'm also being a bit hyperbolic.
[ 28. June 2012, 20:18: Message edited by: Martin L ]
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
One of the neat things about being a Lutheran is that everything is optional!*
*I'm afraid that in Lutheranism, this often continues "everything is optional, except the sermon, the announcements, and the anthem"! And I'm also being a bit hyperbolic.
It appears this bug has bitten the United Methodists as well.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I thought the Eucharistic Prayer itself proclaimes our need for grace, e.g. "All glory be to thee, Almighty God, our heavenly Father, for that thou of thy tender mercy, didst give thine only Son Jesus Christ to suffer death upon the cross for our redemption; who made there, by his one oblation of himself once offered, a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world...Wherefore, O lord and heavenly Father...we now offer unto thee, the memorial thy Son hath commanded us to make; having in remembrance his blessed passion and precious death, his mighty resurrection and glorious ascension;rendering unto thee most hearty thanks for the innumerable benefits procured unto us by the same...most humbly beseeching thee to grant that, by the merits and death of thy Son Jesus Christ...we...may obtain remission of our sins...And although we are unworthy, through our manifold sins to offer unto thee any sacrifice, yet we beseech thee to accept this our bounden duty and service, not weighing our merits, but pardoning our offenses, through Jesus Christ Our Lord..."
That, of course, is the traditional Rite I language of the American BCP 1979, but all Eucharistic prayers encapsulate the same essential ideas as to our dependence on the grace of God through the redemption of the Cross and Resurrection.
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Hairy Biker
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# 12086
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Posted
At the little service I go to sometimes the priest tried to use lectio divina instead of a sermon. She's refined it a bit now, so this is how it works: someone reads the gospel, she preaches very briefly on the context, someone else reads it a second time and then we sit in silent prayer for about 5 minutes. The silence ends with a third voice reading the passage - then we move on to prayers.
It's quite a nice way to get some contemplation into the middle of the working day.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
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uffda
Shipmate
# 14310
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by uffda:
While a long sermon may not be best, some presentation of our need for God's grace, is, to me, a necessary part of the service.
When calling for some presentation of our need for God's grace, I did not mean to imply that nothing in the entire service presents our need for God's grace. I was addressing the OP which referenced the sermon.
The re-emphasis of the sermon by the Reformers corrected an imbalance in the medieval Mass. This is simply the tradition within which I stand. I mean no disrespect to others who feel
differently. And, as I said before, this is why
the tradition of weekday eucharist is not the norm in Lutheran Churches today.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Inspite of my occasional protests against a sermon at every celebration of the Mass, that is, in fact, my practice. However, my weekday efforts are noticeably shorter and simpler than the Sunday sermon. The average weekday sermon is about 6-7 minutes, as opposed to 12-15 on Sundays. The weekday sermon tends to be one point special or a potted history, rather than an exposition of one of the lessons. That said, I think all the Reformation era stuff I read at University got to me - I seem to have a 'no mass without communicants and sermon rule.'
PD
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
I rather like the idea of Hairy Biker's priest using a form of lectio divina in the place of the homily. Next time I have to celebrate a Liturgy of the Word with Holy Communion from the MBS, maybe I'll give it a try - we have a number of peeps who would be willing to read if asked!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
It's quite a nice way to ...
... to drive the ADHD folk completely bonkers.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Could one call Lectio Divina a fad, or am I just hearing about it now that I'm in seminary?
I much prefer a few minutes of sound biblical exegesis during weekday masses, but that's just me.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Could one call Lectio Divina a fad, or am I just hearing about it now that I'm in seminary?
I've been hearing about it for 10 years since becoming a Benedictine oblate, but it does seem to be coming up in more general discussion lately. The meaning of the term seems to vary from the formal-ish four-step process to a sort of meditative repetition of the text between long silences.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
At the little service I go to sometimes the priest tried to use lectio divina instead of a sermon. She's refined it a bit now, so this is how it works: someone reads the gospel, she preaches very briefly on the context, someone else reads it a second time and then we sit in silent prayer for about 5 minutes. The silence ends with a third voice reading the passage - then we move on to prayers.
It's quite a nice way to get some contemplation into the middle of the working day.
I actually really like this idea. You'd have to have the right congregation (one that you know has a capacity for silent contemplation), but it could work really well in the right context.
It's actually somewhat similar to how I start Bible Study (we'd then move to a discussion of what came up for people in the silence). My go-to approach for running bible study is that it's my job to give them the context; it's the job of the whole group to do the 'so what?'
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Could one call Lectio Divina a fad, or am I just hearing about it now that I'm in seminary?
I've been hearing about it for 10 years since becoming a Benedictine oblate, but it does seem to be coming up in more general discussion lately. The meaning of the term seems to vary from the formal-ish four-step process to a sort of meditative repetition of the text between long silences.
It is "in" with the non-Benedictine crowd right now.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I don't think I've ever been to a normal weekday Eucharist (i.e. not a special holy day service) at which a sermon or homily was preached. Deo Gratias! A good 20 minute Anglo-Catholic low mass suits me fine.
Me too. Why can't clergy resist the urge to preach? I wish they'd leave us alone.
When I was working full time and attending a daily 7.30am, i had to be on the bus to work at 8. Not possible with a sermon.
Do these preaching addicts not realise that they are fostering a religion for the elderly and retired and turning away the active?
[ 29. June 2012, 15:55: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
It is "in" with the non-Benedictine crowd right now.
PD
I usually encounter the slow, repetitive readings with silence in between. It makes sense as far as fads go- one gets to sit and feel feelings without any of that onerous talk about exegesis or doctrine.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I don't think I've ever been to a normal weekday Eucharist (i.e. not a special holy day service) at which a sermon or homily was preached. Deo Gratias! A good 20 minute Anglo-Catholic low mass suits me fine.
Me too. Why can't clergy resist the urge to preach? I wish they'd leave us alone.
When I was working full time and attending a daily 7.30am, i had to be on the bus to work at 8. Not possible with a sermon.
Do these preaching addicts not realise that they are fostering a religion for the elderly and retired and turning away the active?
Whether or not this was tongue-in-cheek, ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
My pastor is an excellent preacher. His weekday homilies can last up to 10 miutes making the Mass about 40 minutes long.
A few blocks away at another parish the homilies are about 2-4 minutes making the Mass just under 30 minutes. That way they can do back to back Masses on the half-hour during the week.
At St. Patricks Cathedral I've seen priests go straight from the Gospel to the Offertory making the Mass about 15-20 minutes.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I don't think I've ever been to a normal weekday Eucharist (i.e. not a special holy day service) at which a sermon or homily was preached. Deo Gratias! A good 20 minute Anglo-Catholic low mass suits me fine.
Me too. Why can't clergy resist the urge to preach? I wish they'd leave us alone.
When I was working full time and attending a daily 7.30am, i had to be on the bus to work at 8. Not possible with a sermon.
Do these preaching addicts not realise that they are fostering a religion for the elderly and retired and turning away the active?
Whether or not this was tongue-in-cheek,
Entirely serious. People complain and ask 'where have the young people gone?' yet they time services around the schedules of the elderly when most people are at work, when families are getting their children sorted out etc.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
As one of those who doesn't have much time in the day for daily mass, I'm happy with the nearest parish's daily masses, which generally have no sermon except on holy days and special seasons (Like lent and easter)
I don't have an aversion to weekday homilies, just no time t spare. At my home parish, usually the 6:30 AM mass has no homily and no intercessions (because most of it's attendants are the sisters and other teachers at the parish school, the nearby hospital, or one of the two nearby colleges) and the 8:30 has both of these. It's a good balance.
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windsofchange
Shipmate
# 13000
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Posted
I used to attend weekday Mass at a little RCC chapel in downtown L.A. (now closed and looking very abandoned and sad) staffed by two priests. There would always be a short homily at the noon Mass (when the majority of people attended).
Father A was the heart and soul of the chapel; everyone loved him and he said Mass wonderfully. However, his homilies were ... rambling, to put it kindly. They started out well enough but then he'd kind of drift off topic and finish way far away from where you initially thought he was going.
Father B was obviously just there killing time till something better came along. He was polite enough but no one really got to know him. And he ad-libbed the Mass to the point where those of us who were more tradition-minded resigned ourselves to yet another opportunity to "offer it up". However - his homilies were KILLER good. Five minutes from start to finish, always 100% related to the Gospel of the day, always with an excellent point, and often very helpful to one's daily life.
I used to wish I could somehow squish Fr. A and Fr. B together into Fr. AB, the perfect priest who would say Mass like a dream and deliver killer homilies. But I could never figure out the science. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on." (owner of Coney Island Freak Show, upon learning someone outbid him for a 5-legged puppy)
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
In a city centre or big suburban parish it is pretty much essential to have short, non-preaching, communion Masses either early or late - or around 12.15pm if you are down town. Otherwise one misses out on a lot of the passing traffic.
Even in my small town parish I have one guy who never makes it on a Sunday, and if it were not for the Weds. morning Mass he would not get to church at all.
I often look enviously at Dearmer's advocacy of a Sunday schedule of 11am Matins; 11.40am Sermon: 12noon Communion. I like a substantial sermon on Sundays, but the modern Parish Communion tends to work against any serious preaching because of the pressure to keep things under an hour.
PD
[ 29. June 2012, 19:03: Message edited by: PD ]
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I like a substantial sermon on Sundays, but the modern Parish Communion tends to work against any serious preaching because of the pressure to keep things under an hour.
PD
Local TEC place, Rite II, can be in and out in 45 minutes with a 10-minute sermon. If it went an hour, that would provide time for a 25-minute sermon, although that certainly dominates the service with a gluttonously long sermon!
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
Sounds to me as though they rather scamper over the liturgy. However, I am used to Sung 1928/Rite One, so with a 10 minute sermon one does not get much change out of an hour.
PD
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Sounds to me as though they rather scamper over the liturgy. However, I am used to Sung 1928/Rite One, so with a 10 minute sermon one does not get much change out of an hour.
PD
Definitely not, and they sing four hymns on top of it! I suppose it is noteworthy that Rite 2 basically only includes an acclamation and the Collect for Purity between the opening hymn and the Gloria. Five to seven minutes tops, from the start of the procession to the first reading. Maybe five minutes for the readings, with a spoken Psalm. They don't dawdle unnecessarily with texts, and I would say that they maintain a RC pace, rather than an Anglican one, for texts such as the creed. That reminds me, there are not a few RC places around here that can.be out in 45 minutes on a Sunday morning, although they usually have less hymnody and a more efficient communion distribution system.
[ 30. June 2012, 01:17: Message edited by: Martin L ]
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PD
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Rite Two is pretty terse all round, IIRC - a bit like Series 2 in England. I imagine they can get five minutes in the bag that way. Also, do they have a General Thanksgiving and Absolution. It is quite common now to omit them, which absolutely scandalizes me. Receiving the sacrament without receiving absolution first gets me into a purple panic.
I grew up on the old 'Shorter Prayer Book' in England, and you could get things done fairly quickly with that liturgy. We ran a bit over 20 minutes for a said Communion with no sermon, and about 55 minutes with four hymns and a sermon.
PD
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Olaf
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Yes, they do a general confession and absolution, but once again, Rite 2 expedites things. I just timed out the invitation to confession, five seconds of silence, a deliberately spoken prayer of confession and absolution at 48 seconds.
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bib
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# 13074
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Posted
I've never understood the necessity for a sermon unless the preacher is really gifted or has something of special significance to say. It seems to me that it is the sermon that most relucant churchgoers complain about the most. I think the worst sermon I ever heard was from a priest who spent most of the minutes allocated berating the congregation for not coming to church - but we were there! He did the same the following week, so needless to say I went elsewhere.
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ken
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Entirely serious. People complain and ask 'where have the young people gone?' yet they time services around the schedules of the elderly when most people are at work, when families are getting their children sorted out etc.
Yes, but there is NO TIME IN THE WEEK when those with work and/or kids are easily available.
Even if you ignore short-workers (and quite a few of our congregation work shifts) the ordinary working day is spread out - "9 to 5" is perhaps an average working day but its far from universal. Some people leave for work before 7am. Other full-time workers don't get up till after 9. Some are home before 4 to make tea for the kids, others aren't back till 8 or 9.
The early evening, say 5pm to 7pm, is the most valuable time of day for working parents with young kids. Its often the only time someone who works full-time gets to see their children. Its an utterly insane time to schedule meetings or other events if you want them to come. But for single people without children who are in full-time work its the deadest time of the day. Nothing happens then. Too early to go out for the night. No point in going home if you are the only person there. You might as well stay at work.
Then there is the commuting gap. For various reasons people who commute to work tend on average to start and finish work later than those who work near where they live. Add the commuting time on, and you've got a couple of hours time shift.
So what's the minister to do? There is no time that works for everybody, or even for a majority. Our vicar keeps on trying to schedule things on weekdays and keeps on getting rebuffed by the congregation because by far the easiest day of the week for most people is Sunday!
As for Saturdays. If I'm "on duty" at church on Sunday, then, as I work Monday to Friday, Saturday morning is the only decent sleep I get all week. I used to refuse any request for me to do churchy things on Saturday morning. Then I started ignoring them, because I ceased to be able to reply politely.
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PD
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From what I remember of my working life I have pretty much resigned myself to not seeing working folk except on Sundays. The exceptions are Christmas Eve and Ash Wednesday, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday when you will get the more enthusiastic there provided you get the timing right. 7pm seems to be the safest bet around here.
As a result I tend to gear my midweek services to the retired. This might sound like the counsel of despair, but as we are not a downtown parish in a big city it is realistic. You have to look at what is going on outside the front door and adjust accordingly.
PD
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Angloid
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What ken and PD say is right. You can't expect working people, or those with children, to come to anything midweek. My last parish was in the city centre and there were almost as many communicants on weekdays (in total) as on Sundays, but they were quick 25-minute masses at lunchtime. Even that was difficult for some people as 'nosebagging' at the desk began to take over from a proper lunch break.
Most residential parishes have got to resign themselves to fitting everything into the hour (or slightly more if you're lucky) on Sunday morning. I think it's important, though, that the daily office, and eucharist at least on major feasts, continues to be offered through the week even if only a faithful few retired folk turn up. It's the worship of the Church and all members share in it in some way even if they can't be present in body.
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venbede
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Posted
When I was in my twenties and working, there were a number of churches nearby with weekday masses. I was delighted and even managed to attend mass every day in Easter Week.
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PD
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# 12436
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City Centre parishes tend to be big exceptions on a lot of counts. Even a High Church Protestant like me can see the need for a 20 minute Communion Service in those circumstance. In a reasonably well off city centre parish I could well see myself doing - Monday Music; Tuesday Teaching; Wednesday Communion; Thursday Prayer Meeting; Friday communion all at lunchtimes for about 20-25 minutes.
PD
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
When I was in my twenties and working, there were a number of churches nearby with weekday masses. I was delighted and even managed to attend mass every day in Easter Week.
That is an achievement Venbede. I have heard Easter week called the week of Sundays, and even the old Prayer Book had special readings for the Monday and Tuesday, maybe even more, I can't remember.
Now though I think it would be hard to do what you were able to do in your twenties, except in London. So many churches seem to close the doors during the week, and even if they are open at times they seem to be closed on Bank Holidays like Easter Monday.
It's the same after Christmas. We have those lovely festivals of St John and St Stephen but very few churches seem to observe them as we'll as they observe similar holy days at other times of the year.
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Mama Thomas
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I agree that a weekday Mass is to be short--in and out in about half an hour. People DO have TV shows to get back to.
Also, I don't see any reason to conflate "proclamation of the Word" with preaching. A first lesson, a psalm and a gospel portion have all been proclaimed. A minute or so of reflection on the saint or something else is all that is most people need.
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