Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Coloured clerical shirts
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Dark blue always yells Presbyterian to me even though every C of S or Wee Free chap I have ever run into in the UK has worn dark grey or black with the old-fashioned cellulose halo! Oh well, there is no accounting for perception.
Around here the RCs seem to wear medium grey or black tread-thrus. Though if one does see someone in a frightful colour shirt it is a safe bet to assume RC.
The Lutherans are collar and tie guys in this neck of the woods (pun intended!)
PD [ 14. July 2012, 23:29: Message edited by: PD ]
-------------------- Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by leo: You can come and do my last rites then.
I have a sort of fantasy of being on my deathbed at a local hospital and being approached by a minister in a blue shirt. Blue denotes, for me, the sort of churchpersonship that means that before I made my confession I would have to explain the minister what s/he had to say and do.
Too much hassle. May as well die unshriven and trust that God is as merciful as he says he is.
I was recently at a bedside when the presence of a chaplain was requested. She came in a frilly cream clerical shirt and declared that the Last Rites had been abolished and that nowadays we just do anointing. I didn't quibble (it wasn't quite the moment, and the person in question was a low-church Methodist anyway), but it was a bit of a struggle...
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LostinChelsea
Shipmate
# 5305
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Posted
quote: Sebby retorted: Why wouldn't a vocational deacon wear a collar in the parish?
An excellent question, and I don't want to derail the discussion at hand.
Basically, the bishop revived the vocational diaconate (which to my knowledge had never been a part of this diocese) and was dealing with the difficult task of making clear to everyone involved the distinctive role of vocational deacons over and against priests, bishops, and lay persons. I'm sure he wanted to avoid the perception of the deacon as "junior priest," and it had something to do with the role of deacon in mission outside the parish rather than as liturgical assistant within. It's a complicated and thorny issue and how it's addressed will evolve over time.
Obviously, it's about far more than coloured shirts!
-------------------- Best when taken in moderation.
Posts: 237 | From: Deep South USA | Registered: Dec 2003
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Basilica: I was recently at a bedside when the presence of a chaplain was requested. She came in a frilly cream clerical shirt and declared that the Last Rites had been abolished and that nowadays we just do anointing. I didn't quibble (it wasn't quite the moment, and the person in question was a low-church Methodist anyway), but it was a bit of a struggle...
Who was the low-church Methodist? The patient or the cleric? [ 17. July 2012, 17:25: Message edited by: seasick ]
-------------------- We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by LostinChelsea: quote: Sebby retorted: Why wouldn't a vocational deacon wear a collar in the parish?
An excellent question, and I don't want to derail the discussion at hand.
Basically, the bishop revived the vocational diaconate (which to my knowledge had never been a part of this diocese) and was dealing with the difficult task of making clear to everyone involved the distinctive role of vocational deacons over and against priests, bishops, and lay persons. I'm sure he wanted to avoid the perception of the deacon as "junior priest," and it had something to do with the role of deacon in mission outside the parish rather than as liturgical assistant within. It's a complicated and thorny issue and how it's addressed will evolve over time.
Obviously, it's about far more than coloured shirts!
I accept the logic, but see it as a mistake.At clergy gathrings (interdiocesan) wouldn't the vocational deacons wear collars?
It's like the custom in some AC churches of not calling a male cleric 'Father' until he is in priest's orders. There is no reason whatsoever for witholding the title - in Orthodoxy I understand that in some places even monks who are lay are called 'Father'. It is not a refernce to a sacerdotal function.
-------------------- sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by sebby:
It's like the custom in some AC churches of not calling a male cleric 'Father' until he is in priest's orders. There is no reason whatsoever for witholding the title - in Orthodoxy I understand that in some places even monks who are lay are called 'Father'. It is not a refernce to a sacerdotal function.
In this the AC churches are following the normal custom in Latin Christianity; Anglicans are, after all, Latin Rite Christians, notwithstanding recent attempts to borrow Eastern flavor.
-------------------- "The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Not entirely recent. The compilers of different versions of the BCP were also (to an extent) willing to look Eastwards.
-------------------- sebhyatt
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by sebby: Not entirely recent. The compilers of different versions of the BCP were also (to an extent) willing to look Eastwards.
True, I think, of the Scottish and American books to a small degree (although Episcopalians choked way back on the Eastern borrowings of the Non-Jurors). Both traditions, to say nothing of the English, are still pretty clearly Latin Rite, and the theology behind them is Augustinian via the Reformed. It doesn't get much more Latin than that.
-------------------- "The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Not forgetting the twice daily recitiation according to the rubrics of the BCP of the Prayer of St John Chrysostom of course.
But you are right IMO about the rest of the Latin influence.
-------------------- sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Papouli
Apprentice
# 17209
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by sebby: It's like the custom in some AC churches of not calling a male cleric 'Father' until he is in priest's orders. There is no reason whatsoever for witholding the title - in Orthodoxy I understand that in some places even monks who are lay are called 'Father'. It is not a refernce to a sacerdotal function.
Traditionally, the Orthodox address all members of the priesthood and monastics as "Father." Until the beginning of the 20th century, in Greece, even Readers were called "Father" (as they possess the first degree of priesthood in the Church).
In the US, the Antiochians began the custom of calling Deacons by their ministry (ie Deacon John) rather than the correct form of Father John. I'm sure they copied this from the Catholics, but it is certainly incorrect (do we call someone Priest John or Presbyter John?). This non-traditional custom has, unfortunately, crept into the other archdioceses here.
Posts: 28 | From: New England | Registered: Jul 2012
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regulator reverend
Apprentice
# 16890
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Posted
Many will be horrified, but I wear black clericals when very formal, but clergy t-shirts (with tunnel collars) when less formal, but I still want ot be seen in the collar. They come in some delicious colours.
Posts: 9 | From: Hampshire | Registered: Jan 2012
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
I like to eat lunch on Sundays at a restaurant a couple doors down from the church. I'm well known in there, probably because of the fact that I'm always in clericals when I go in there.
Sunday was no exception. I was standing in line, waiting my turn to pay, when a stranger greeted me -- not an unusual thing at all, since a) I'm wearing clericals in a place that is unused to them, and b) this is a lake town, with many vacationers -- not much different from a beach town or town in the mountains. His wife was rather plainly dressed, but I had already noticed his clothing at the very beginning: torn designer jeans, black tee shirt with some sort of design on it, and a "faux-hawk" hair style. I had smiled and nodded when we'd made eye contact across the dining room as I was looking for a seat.
Anyway, I was standing there, in line, and he came up to me and said, "Hello, Deacon, how are you?"
"Fine, thank you. And you?"
"I'm fine. Where are you from?"
I told him. His next question was, "So what brings you here?"
"I'm the pastor of the Methodist church just up the street."
He looked surprised. "Methodist? Wow. Well, I go to a Charismatic Episcopal church. I'm sure we could have some very interesting conversations. Have a great day, Deacon."
What struck me about all that was that he (twice) called me "Deacon". I was wearing a dark grey tab collar, so I'm guessing that's one place where grey is used for deacons.
Not to mention the Charismatic Episcopal Church, which I found to be extremely interesting. I think I've seen it all! [ 24. July 2012, 11:14: Message edited by: Padre Joshua ]
-------------------- Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by regulator reverend: Many will be horrified, but I wear black clericals when very formal, but clergy t-shirts (with tunnel collars) when less formal, but I still want ot be seen in the collar. They come in some delicious colours.
I take it you don't mean these then?
-------------------- Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Papouli: quote: Originally posted by sebby: It's like the custom in some AC churches of not calling a male cleric 'Father' until he is in priest's orders. There is no reason whatsoever for witholding the title - in Orthodoxy I understand that in some places even monks who are lay are called 'Father'. It is not a refernce to a sacerdotal function.
Traditionally, the Orthodox address all members of the priesthood and monastics as "Father." Until the beginning of the 20th century, in Greece, even Readers were called "Father" (as they possess the first degree of priesthood in the Church).
In the US, the Antiochians began the custom of calling Deacons by their ministry (ie Deacon John) rather than the correct form of Father John. I'm sure they copied this from the Catholics, but it is certainly incorrect (do we call someone Priest John or Presbyter John?). This non-traditional custom has, unfortunately, crept into the other archdioceses here.
The priesthood is the only exception, though. Bishops are normally addressed as "Bishop X" or "Archbishop Y," and even some honorary titles (like "Canon") function similarly.
-------------------- "The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Although the OP was concerned about the colour of clerical shirts, might this be broadened out to include STYLE?
I have noticed that the tunnel neck variety seem to be the most common - well, amongst the clergy one sees around. The more formal sort showing white all the way around with a space at the front seem more recent creations (1980s) but not as common. There used to be the shirts that looked like ordniary lay shirts, but had a white piece at the front instead of a tie. I hardly ever see these now
-------------------- sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Chap
Shipmate
# 4926
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Posted
As an army chaplain I am in uniform the majority of the time but when in clericals they are always black with full collar.
-------------------- Chap
Comfort the hurting; Feed the hungry; Clothe the naked.
Posts: 454 | From: Texas | Registered: Aug 2003
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by sebby: I have noticed that the tunnel neck variety seem to be the most common - well, amongst the clergy one sees around. The more formal sort showing white all the way around with a space at the front seem more recent creations (1980s) but not as common.
I've had this style of collar explained to me as an attempt to look like an old-fashioned clerical collar (1.5" of white all around) under a cassock. The same person suggested to me that the concept of a clerical shirt was to be an adaptation of the cassock to be practical for everyday modern life, when clergy can't go around all day in their cassocks (vide a recent thread on this board).
Is this a rather optimistic reinterpretation of history, or is there something to this?
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Do any shipmaes have experience of clergy wearing a 'Christian Brothers' collar? That is a collar showing a very thin band of white all around (about 3 mm), but no opening at the front.
-------------------- sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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infoleather
Apprentice
# 17335
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Posted
When the clergy seem to give up "seems to relish taking COFE priest collar, and the Church Times, such a person, such a dress.
-------------------- the sunset of life gives me mystical lore, And coming events cast their shadows before.
Posts: 3 | From: New York | Registered: Sep 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
-------------------- Brian: You're all individuals! Crowd: We're all individuals! Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Angloid:
Looking at the contributor's three posts thus far, I detect a bot. I'm sure the hosts and admins will pick up on it and act accordingly.
These posts are kind of funny, though.
-------------------- If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister: quote: Originally posted by Angloid:
Looking at the contributor's three posts thus far, I detect a bot. I'm sure the hosts and admins will pick up on it and act accordingly.
These posts are kind of funny, though.
A bot indeed - but you are right, the stream-of-consciousness thread necromancy was kind of amusing!
-------------------- Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
That last one ended in an almost mystic reverie - "and the Church Times, such a person, such a dress...".
I could almost imagine those being my last words on Earth, sitting in a peacock chair with a glass of gin in my hand, gazing out at a rural sunset.
-------------------- "What is broken, repair with gold."
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
If you ask me, it's the ghost of Edith Sitwell.
-------------------- My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Adeodatus: That last one ended in an almost mystic reverie - "and the Church Times, such a person, such a dress...".
I could almost imagine those being my last words on Earth, sitting in a peacock chair with a glass of gin in my hand, gazing out at a rural sunset.
-------------------- Brian: You're all individuals! Crowd: We're all individuals! Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister: Looking at the contributor's three posts thus far, I detect a bot. I'm sure the hosts and admins will pick up on it and act accordingly.
Judging from the alerts posted in the H&A lounge, it seems like they strike most often in Eccles. Perhaps they know where to find the cleverest retorts.
-------------------- Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I have detected on here a hint that clergy seem to be more in their collars these days than previously - say towards the end of the 70s and into the 80s.
However, I can't remember when I last saw a vicar in the street. Maybe this is one more little thing that contributes to the church's invisibility, and maybe the march of secularism and 'church reserved for those inside' sort of thing? A quick walk along a sea front last week past the casinos and jostling holiday makers made me ponder 'wouldn't it be nice just to see a cleric amongst them or walking past?'
This used to be said also of the police, who began to lose touch when they just drove past in panda cars. There was a concerted effort to get them more visible.
Similarly, the Armed Forces have been encouraged to wear their uniforms in the street once again. The huge PR success of them helping at the Olypmics was due to their visibilty - and politeness.
The admirable exception is the Salvation Army who proudly wear their unifrom and 'Fire and Blood' insignia in the most gruesome of venues, with pride and service.
I remember Ken once agreeing that the sight of acollar to an 'outsider' is a symbol of the church personified - whatever our internal ecclesiology may think; it happens to be the reality
Whatever the argument for special clothes may be for church itself. maybe the more powerful argument is for a distinctive dress OUTSIDE church as the greater priority?
-------------------- sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
There are 39 churches in the town where I work and there are a lot of ministers. Very few wear clerical dress. I do, as matching black with black is nice and easy first thing in the morning, but I realise I'm very much in the minority around here.
-------------------- At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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leftfieldlover
Shipmate
# 13467
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Posted
In a bit of a rush, but did someone say 'stockings'? If so, how do they keep them up? Suspenders or....?
-------------------- I can gauge your mood from your approach to food.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
0 quote: Originally posted by Mamacita: quote: Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister: Looking at the contributor's three posts thus far, I detect a bot. I'm sure the hosts and admins will pick up on it and act accordingly.
Judging from the alerts posted in the H&A lounge, it seems like they strike most often in Eccles. Perhaps they know where to find the cleverest retorts.
Or perhaps there is more than a passing similarity between the average Eccles personality and a bot.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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ChrisHuriwai
Apprentice
# 17111
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Posted
I used to be an All Black (rather apt for a New Zealander) shirt wearing cleric until very recently. I made the leap and purchased a grey shirt...turns out it is too big and I have literally only worn it once, a sign perhaps.
Posts: 4 | From: New Zealand | Registered: May 2012
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Welcome to Ship of Fools, ChrisHuriwai. There's a general Introductions Thread on the All Saints board if you're interested. Enjoy sailing with us.
Mamacita, Ecclesiantics Host
-------------------- Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
I'm of two minds. On the one hand, God made all the colors in the rainbow. Why should anyone wish to renounce all of them but one?
On the other hand, perhaps our society, being more-or-less democratic, is too enamored of individual choices and options for its own good. When we are given a choice, we expect that the choice we make will solve a problem for us. But it usually doesn't: we still have all the same problems. So instead of a habit of godly (and life-enhancing) thanksgiving, we give in to disappointment and pique.
Nevertheless, I don't want the government restricting my choices any more than the next person does. Perhaps in the example of representatives who have voluntary surrendered a few, the church can remind us not to make an idol of them.
-------------------- Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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