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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Black Mitre
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Miss Madrigal
Shipmate
# 15528
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Posted
In the BBC's presentation of Henry IV Part 2 (shown last night) the Archibishop of York was shown wearing a rather fetching black mitre. I've seen many a gaudy mitre, but never a black one. Was this dramatic licence? Would we see such a thing in action today?
Posts: 79 | From: The Bit In The Middle | Registered: Mar 2010
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
In the Catholic Church and (usually) the Anglican churches there are only three types - one is white, one cloth of gold and one that may be decorated with precious stones, but still on a plain gold background, so I suspect the answers to your questions are yes, dramatic licence and no, it wouldn't be seen today.
Having said that, TEC bishops seem to have some extraordinary tastes in colourful headwear...
[ 15. July 2012, 14:25: Message edited by: Boat Boy ]
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
TEC bishops seem to have some extraordinary tastes in colourful headwear...
Case in point.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
From the look on the face of the bishop with the crozier, he's suffering from a s severe case of mitre-envy.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
I'm not surprised, when he's been left wearing a quilt as a cope.
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
I'm not surprised, when he's been left wearing a quilt as a cope.
Maybe it's a holy comforter.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
A quick Google search pulled up this, which mentions a "mitra nigra." I will have to defer to the Ecclesiantics Latin brigade to confirm whether I translate correctly or not.
When it would have been used, I have no idea. The traditional three mitres go back quite far.
A black mitre is mentioned here, in connection with an abbot.
Was the program depicting a requiem liturgy? If so, it may have simply been dramatic license, as you suggest? I have little doubt that one can obtain a black mitre to match one's black cope and chasuble nowadays. In the past, I believe a Mitra Simplex (plain white mitre) would have been used at a requiem.
[ 15. July 2012, 17:35: Message edited by: Martin L ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
I have little doubt that one can obtain a black mitre to match one's black cope and chasuble nowadays. In the past, I believe a Mitra Simplex (plain white mitre) would have been used at a requiem.
No doubt you can obtain such a thing, but you would hope that any bishop sufficiently au fait with traditional vestments to wear black for a requiem would understand that a mitra simplex is the only possible mitre for such an occasion.
(The use of the plain linen mitre is required for requiems, Good Friday and indeed throughout Lent according to the Ceremonies of the Modern Roman Rite.)
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Miss Madrigal
Shipmate
# 15528
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Posted
Outstanding work, shipmates, thank you.
quote:
Was the program depicting a requiem liturgy?
No, it was a Shakespeare history play so it was awash with blood, but the Archbishop was just doing some general Archbishoping rather than anything liturgical.
As for the episcopal tribute to Zippy, George and Bungle, all I can say is, "Wow!". That really is quite something, isn't it?
Posts: 79 | From: The Bit In The Middle | Registered: Mar 2010
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
An example of Martin L's xeric wit:
A black mitre is mentioned here, in connection with an abbot.
Ostensibly a reference to episcopal headgear, on this thread pocked with potshots at TEC, Martin L expects us to pass by this gem without comment. quote:
RUSSIAN LIFE TO-DAY
BY THE
Right Rev. HERBERT BURY, D.D.
Bishop for Northern and Central Europe
Author of “A Bishop among Bananas”
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
Potshots? Is it not true then that TEC bishops often wear more garish mitres than those from other churches?
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
TEC bishops seem to have some extraordinary tastes in colourful headwear...
Case in point.
I suppose if ever the TEC Primate (is that the right title?) ever tires of her mitre, she could always use it to take the roast out of the oven.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
A quick Google search pulled up this, which mentions a "mitra nigra." I will have to defer to the Ecclesiantics Latin brigade to confirm whether I translate correctly or not.
When it would have been used, I have no idea. The traditional three mitres go back quite far.
A black mitre is mentioned here, in connection with an abbot.
Was the program depicting a requiem liturgy? If so, it may have simply been dramatic license, as you suggest? I have little doubt that one can obtain a black mitre to match one's black cope and chasuble nowadays. In the past, I believe a Mitra Simplex (plain white mitre) would have been used at a requiem.
White linen for a requiem. However, that does not cover the now suppressed neo-Gallican Uses which may have had different customs.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
An example of Martin L's xeric wit:
A black mitre is mentioned here, in connection with an abbot.
Ostensibly a reference to episcopal headgear, on this thread pocked with potshots at TEC, Martin L expects us to pass by this gem without comment. quote:
RUSSIAN LIFE TO-DAY
BY THE
Right Rev. HERBERT BURY, D.D.
Bishop for Northern and Central Europe
Author of “A Bishop among Bananas”
Like a true Reference Librarian*, I diplomatically refrain from judging. Thus is my normal practice, anyway.
*which I am not
[ 15. July 2012, 20:20: Message edited by: Martin L ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Surely the point here is not what the rubrics say now, but what they said in early 15th century England. And I, for one, haven't a clue.
I think I once read somewhere that in the Orthodox Church (or bits of it), the most important festivals get the "best" vestments, regardless of what colour they are. Might there have been similar rules at the court of King Henry IV? (Regardless of which of his Parts we're talking about.)
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Samuel Seabury had a black mitre and wore the mitre when no one else did. It had been modified from a top hat, and as the top hat was a new fashion at the time we can surely say that he was in the very avant-guarde of Anglican bishops. There's a picture of it somewhere on the web. I shall have a look to see if I can turn it up.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Here we are. It's more ornate than I had recalled. There's another photo somewhere else in which you can make out that it was created from a different piece of headgear. I don't suppose the good bishop possibly had more than one of these things?
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
It's certainly true that in 15th Century England many churches would simply have had one or two sets each of 'light' and 'dark' vestments for festal and ferial days as they couldn't afford every colour, but I suspect the Archbishop of York wouldn't have that problem...
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
It's certainly true that in 15th Century England many churches would simply have had one or two sets each of 'light' and 'dark' vestments for festal and ferial days as they couldn't afford every colour, but I suspect the Archbishop of York wouldn't have that problem...
Oh I don't know. Scruffy buggers, some of them.
Or there could be two sacristans sniggering in the background, one saying to the other, "I can't believe you sent him out in the black. Did he really not notice?..."
At the risk of a(nother) tangent, how and when did mitres go from this rather fetching little number to this "what do you mean, build a higher door?" style?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Well orthodox bishops have black headgear don't they ? Presumably, therefore, coloured mitres were a later development - so early on post-schismatic bishops in the west probably had black mitres.
(That's my reasoning and I'm sticking to it.)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
At the risk of a(nother) tangent, how and when did mitres go from this rather fetching little number to this "what do you mean, build a higher door?" style? [/QB]
Well, Edward King, the Bishop of Lincoln, was the first Anglican bishop to actually wear a mitre since the Reformation (as opposed to simply putting one on a coat of arms). He had two and they are both of the low, early mediaeval style. They're now in the loving care of the sacristy at St Stephen's House. Very fetching they are too...
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
There is a little diagram of the progression on wiki.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
TEC bishops seem to have some extraordinary tastes in colourful headwear...
Case in point.
We've all heard of a heart bypass, but I'd call that a taste bypass.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
At the risk of a(nother) tangent, how and when did mitres go from this rather fetching little number to this "what do you mean, build a higher door?" style?
Well, Edward King, the Bishop of Lincoln, was the first Anglican bishop to actually wear a mitre since the Reformation (as opposed to simply putting one on a coat of arms). He had two and they are both
of the low, early mediaeval style. They're now in the loving
care of the sacristy at St Stephen's House. Very fetching they
are too... [/QB]
You do realise that Samuel Seabury, Bishop of Connecticut and the first bishop consecrated for the American Church wore the mitre long before Edward King -- indeed in the late 18th Century?
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
Not in England (sorry if that seems a little provincial, but I was only thinking of England as the thread was about the Archbishop of York).
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I am hardly going to defend the Presiding Bishop's taste in vestments, but I do see it as particularly vicious, hateful idiocy to try to make the case for the apostasy of the Episcopal Church with it- and that seems to be the general gist of people who see the need to bring it up.
That may be, if I might say so, why there is a perception that potshots are being taken at TEC.
[ 16. July 2012, 21:20: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Not only that, but I can think of no group at all whose entire membership is immune to tat faux pas.
Besides, for all we know the Presiding Bishop likewise found this set questionable, but for diplomatic reasons felt obligated to wear it.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I am hardly going to defend the Presiding Bishop's taste in vestments, but I do see it as particularly vicious, hateful idiocy to try to make the case for the apostasy of the Episcopal Church with it- and that seems to be the general gist of people who see the need to bring it up.
That may be, if I might say so, why there is a perception that potshots are being taken at TEC.
woah Woah WOAH! At no point have I suggested, hinted, intimated or demanded that anyone leave the TEC because of the Presiding Bishop's taste in vestments!
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I am hardly going to defend the Presiding Bishop's taste in vestments, but I do see it as particularly vicious, hateful idiocy to try to make the case for the apostasy of the Episcopal Church with it- and that seems to be the general gist of people who see the need to bring it up.
That may be, if I might say so, why there is a perception that potshots are being taken at TEC.
woah Woah WOAH! At no point have I suggested, hinted, intimated or demanded that anyone leave the TEC because of the Presiding Bishop's taste in vestments!
You've made it quite clear elsewhere that you have an axe to grind about TEC, so why shouldn't we see your comments here as just another snide pot shot?
We've been getting that a lot around here lately. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ 16. July 2012, 21:58: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I am hardly going to defend the Presiding Bishop's taste in vestments, but I do see it as particularly vicious, hateful idiocy to try to make the case for the apostasy of the Episcopal Church with it- and that seems to be the general gist of people who see the need to bring it up.
That may be, if I might say so, why there is a perception that potshots are being taken at TEC.
woah Woah WOAH! At no point have I suggested, hinted, intimated or demanded that anyone leave the TEC because of the Presiding Bishop's taste in vestments!
You've made it quite clear elsewhere that you have an axe to grind about TEC, so why shouldn't we see your comments here as just another snide pot shot?
We've been getting that a lot around here lately.
Where?
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Oh Lord. Your posts on this very thread reveal a habit of making vicious generalizations about TEC.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
At the risk of this becoming a little hellish, I think that to accuse me of 'vicious generalisations' and 'snide pot shots' for saying that I thought a couple of mitres tasteless is rather rude and unnecessary.
Who's using 'vicious generalisations' now?
[ 16. July 2012, 22:19: Message edited by: Boat Boy ]
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Forgive me, dear Eccle-hosts, for distracting from the general course of this thread. I swear I thoroughly regret starting to hoe this row of turnips.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
At no point have I suggested, hinted, intimated or demanded that anyone leave the TEC because of the Presiding Bishop's taste in vestments!
Does it reveal me as shallow that some episcopal TEC getups—never mind the bendy poles—suggest, nay demand, the very same to me?
Now you get out of my bird blind, so I can get on with letting loose my own rhetorical volleys! I can't reload with you crowding me like this.
[ 16. July 2012, 23:21: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
What are the bendy poles exactly? I've heard a couple of Americans mention them but I've not heard of them here.
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Bendy poles be wondrous machines, to some known as Spirit Banners. These be long flexible poles cunningly krafted of polyurethane esters to which be affixed a bit of comely bunting to be waved and twirled about in Solemn Procession of ye Church.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
There is a little diagram of the progression on wiki.
Goodness, how they grow! Anybody would think that the space between some bishops' ears was filled with some sort of highly effective fertiliser ...
I particularly enjoy the one in the top row, center, mostly because I am a congregationalist at heart and have an emotional age of twelve, I think that making all bishops, everywhere, everywhen wear an asshat would be hilarious.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Bendy poles be wondrous machines, to some known as Spirit Banners. These be long flexible poles cunningly krafted of polyurethane esters to which be affixed a bit of comely bunting to be waved and twirled about in Solemn Procession of ye Church.
Gosh...erm......gosh...
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Googling bendy poles gets us nothing. "bendy poles" church is no better.
But, shiver me timbers, "bendy poles" episcopal (as in "church") scores!
It's so embarrassing, but then, "To whom, Lord, should we go?"
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
SA, surely there be better photographic images than that! I shal endeavor to find a true and proper image of a Bendy Pole for the general edification.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
This young maiden doth exemplify the bearing of ye Bendy Pole right well, albeit outside ye parrish church -- a procession out-of-doors, no doubte.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Forgive me, dear Eccle-hosts, for distracting from the general course of this thread. I swear I thoroughly regret starting to hoe this row of turnips.
Thank you, Zach82. The good ship seems to have righted herself since this post, so I won't comment further.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
[ 17. July 2012, 02:45: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
And if you guys are going to mock bendy poles, then at least do it up right with a photo of one trailing a dove. Sheesh. ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Not only that, but I can think of no group at all whose entire membership is immune to tat faux pas.
Besides, for all we know the Presiding Bishop likewise found this set questionable, but for diplomatic reasons felt obligated to wear it.
I really tend to lean in the direction of "Wears what she's been given", myself. I wish people wouldn't give her things that look like fancy potholders!
The one time I saw her in person was at my own bishop's installation, when she was Bishop of Nevada and PB-elect.
She stood on the patio at Grace in hugely-rare-in-San-Francisco 95 F heat and received well-wishes from attendees. She was wearing a white cope and mitre over her alb (she was one of the few bishops with an Eucharistic role so was not in choir dress like most of the other bishops in attendance).
I remember thinking the decoration on the cope to be quite pretty - ISTR it was a braid/Celtic knotwork motif outlined in blue, orphrey style, solid white sides and back. I don't think that any regular Eccles denizens would have found it objectionable at all.
Disclaimer: I should ask whether Grace owns such a cope. They've got closets full of vestments, many of them quite lovely. It was a great treat to be given a backstage tour by our own churchgeek and get to fondle the garments appreciatively.
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
I'm sure I've seen a video of a procession in which bendy poles were used. Chances are the link was posted on here. But "bendy poles church" on YouTube yields nothing.
I've typically seen mitres matching copes in my church life. When I've seen bishops in chasubles it's normally been the parish's euchies, so the mitre wouldn't have matched.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
Mamacita - so rude posts like those from Zach are acceptable are they?
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I believe there are bendy poles with streamers in a recent video of a celebration of the centennary anniversary of St John the Divine, but would have to find it. I believe they are correctly referred to as spirit banners, although I've never been in a place where they were actually in use. I tend to go in more for the flabella and ombrolino kind of shacks.
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