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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Is high Anglicanism still allowed to be fun? (Page 3)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Is high Anglicanism still allowed to be fun?
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Isn't part of the problem that the Evangelicals have most of the young 'uns

Nope.

More likely that Evangelicals have most of the money. And in the larger Anglican communion the Evangelicals have the larger provinces. So it doesn't matter where the next ABC's sympathies lie. He won't be able to go about pissing off the Evangelicals in the same way that an Evangelical is, regrettably, able to piss off the catholics or liberals.

Rowan was never as liberal as his detractors made out anyway, I've noticed some Evangelical sympathies in his speeches. He is as close to the centre of Anglicanism as any Archbishop has been. There's nothing to be alternative to.

I was thinking in terms of the fun element rather than the ABC element when I made that comment.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Enoch
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Tangent Alert
It's a long term pity, and a mark of one of the CofE's failings, that people think it's more important that the next Archbishop belongs to the same faction as themselves, than that he is a person who combines in the same person, wisdom, leadership and holiness.

By the way, according to Radio Bristol yesterday, the name of the new Archbishop is to be announced tomorrow.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Tangent Alert
It's a long term pity, and a mark of one of the CofE's failings, that people think it's more important that the next Archbishop belongs to the same faction as themselves, than that he is a person who combines in the same person, wisdom, leadership and holiness.

By the way, according to Radio Bristol yesterday, the name of the new Archbishop is to be announced tomorrow.

I think there are significant numbers of people, in all factions, who struggle to believe that he could combine those qualities if he's not of their faction. After all, all people who are right, wise and holy agree with me by definition, don't they? [Biased]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:


By the way, according to Radio Bristol yesterday, the name of the new Archbishop is to be announced tomorrow.

How can this be, since the Crown Commission meets on Wednesday and Thursday this week to do as last bit of praying before deciding?

--------------------
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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:


By the way, according to Radio Bristol yesterday, the name of the new Archbishop is to be announced tomorrow.

How can this be, since the Crown Commission meets on Wednesday and Thursday this week to do as last bit of praying before deciding?
No idea. I was only half listening with the programme on in the background, when I suddenly heard this odd statement, and thought, 'how do they claim to know?'.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Indeed. I suppose I can see why they do it, and on the whole the results have been acceptable - with the glaring exception of George Carey, though IIRC there wasn't really anybody very obvious, Evangelical or not, in the frame when ++Runcie went- David Hope was a bit young (and A-C), John Habgood a bit old. Was David Sheppard considered? There was some talk then of ++Robin Eames (Armagh), but I don't know how serious a possibility this was.

In my fantasy alternate universe Jim Thompson was appointed in place of George Carey, but that's doubtless rather implausible as he was only a diocesan Bishop after the latter was appointed to Canterbury.
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Arch Anglo Catholic
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Returning from the misty Isles of Tangent, in my benefice one of the retired clergy wishes to have a requiem for a recently, and dearly missed, departed relative. He fondly remembers the excting days of the late Canon B F Brindley, but feared that the days of Anglo Catholic ebullience had passed, to be replaced with euro tat.

Since a good number of the clergy, retired, NSM and otherwise, are of the High persuasion, this has led to much joy; surprising perhaps in what could be a dismal time?

The fraternal nature of the clergy chapter has led to a steady stream of those who want to help, with increasingly excited ideas with regard to ritual and ceremonial.

This could be vacant, vain and empty, but here it just isn't.

The desire is very much to support and to serve our friend and to worship our God, both with joy in times of hardship. This has put a smile on the face of the bereaved and reinvigorated the elderly retired who are looking forward to donning the black requiem vestments with much glee.

Daft? You might think so, but it's good, old High Anglican joy which filters through. We now have a queue for the sacred ministers...I'm going to MC so steaming handbags at the ready, here we come!

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:


By the way, according to Radio Bristol yesterday, the name of the new Archbishop is to be announced tomorrow.

How can this be, since the Crown Commission meets on Wednesday and Thursday this week to do as last bit of praying before deciding?
No idea. I was only half listening with the programme on in the background, when I suddenly heard this odd statement, and thought, 'how do they claim to know?'.
Well, it's past 1100, when such announcements are made.

Radio Bristol isn't the most prestigious of outfits - after all, they've had me on it several times over the years!

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I started attending an AC church about 7 or 8 years ago because of its liberal theology, being tired of the Jensenite agenda on offer nearly everywhere else. I must say I don't see fun being had at all in my AC parish, they take themselves very seriously and IME are actually much less fun than many of their con-evo counterparts.

I had noticed, over the years, both in Sydney and up here, an almost complete lack of any sense of humour in these circles.

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Well...

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Laud-able

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To Evangeline and Sir Pellinore:

You should come down south, where we will give you all the bells and smells, sound preaching, warm acceptance and laughter that you could possibly want.

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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.

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Evangeline
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quote:
Originally posted by Laud-able:
To Evangeline and Sir Pellinore:

You should come down south, where we will give you all the bells and smells, sound preaching, warm acceptance and laughter that you could possibly want.

Oooh that sounds very enticing, Melbournians are often telling me I should move south, perhaps they're onto something.
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Laud-able

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Well, if you can't get to Marvellous Melbourne at the moment, keep the liturgical flag flying in whatever Catholic oasis you can find in the desert.

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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.

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Sir Pellinore
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Having grown up and been educated in Melbourne and visiting occasionally I am unsure whether, beneath the pizazz, the same sort of deep malaise may not exist.

The Anglican Communion is going through a difficult time and I think that uncertainty is evident in ordinary people.

Christians are not necessarily meant to be happy in the normal 21st Century sense but to experience the deep, abiding Joy that Easter represents. I think we sometimes confute the two.

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Well...

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Laud-able

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It is true that Anglicans have much to be concerned about at international, national and even diocesan levels, but I think that in the parishes we can have some relief. Certainly we are Easter people, and the joy of the Resurrection informs – or should inform - all that we are and all that we do.

I don’t mean that we should go about like Pollyanna - we may still grumble about schismatic dioceses and weak bishops and tedious synods - but at least in contributing to the life of the parish we should be cheerful in doing what we do, remembering that ‘God loveth a cheerful giver’ (and – I hope – a cheerful and loving clergy and people).

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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.

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Evangeline
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quote:
Originally posted by Laud-able:
It is true that Anglicans have much to be concerned about at international, national and even diocesan levels, but I think that in the parishes we can have some relief. Certainly we are Easter people, and the joy of the Resurrection informs – or should inform - all that we are and all that we do.

I don’t mean that we should go about like Pollyanna - we may still grumble about schismatic dioceses and weak bishops and tedious synods - but at least in contributing to the life of the parish we should be cheerful in doing what we do, remembering that ‘God loveth a cheerful giver’ (and – I hope – a cheerful and loving clergy and people).

Quite so, if we can't be joyful as we go about celebrating the resurrection and "being Christian" in our daily lives then we might as well give up altogether. It's easier said than done though, but I'd like to see "us" try.
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Sir Pellinore
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I think, Evangeline, sometimes "we" try too hard and erect a false front which might be so convincing we even deceive ourselves. Self-knowledge is a dangerous thing. As T S Eliot said "Human kind cannot bear very much reality".

Certainly, when I was in Sydney at the parish now christened St Doc's, there seemed to be an undercurrent of unease. Given the parish and parishioners' odds with the archdiocese that was no shock but most of them - a generalization I know - seemed not to be genuinely happy.

In my penultimate parish up here the emphasis seemed to be a sort of surface "pastoral care" which didn't really touch the depths of people's needs.

One of the problems Australian Anglo-Catholics - another broad generalization - seem to have to me is a penchant for concentrating on externals and a total ignoring of their Shadow side, which I think needs to be brought into consciousness for them to be fully alive and function as a genuine human beings with depth and feeling.

I think this search eventually has to become an individual one: one I think many people are unwilling to take because it appears too frightening. Sadly there are few genuine mentors around. The genuine, deep, feeling Christian mystic tradition appears all but lost in contemporary Australian Anglicanism. The Christian Meditation Movement, often substituted for it, is a shallow and unsatisfactory one.

Group worship is necessary but no substitute for working quietly on oneself. They both need to come together for a church or Church to be alive.

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Well...

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Evangeline
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Interesting and thought provoking post Sir P, I think you may be right I have found a certain aridity about St Docs, hard to put my finger on but I think perhaps it is that focus on corporate worship and symbols etc at the expense (rather than in conjunction with) of quietly working on yourself and your relationship with God. It seems to flow on to relationships within the church too...

I too long for somewhere to engage in the mystic tradition, I don't see it anywhere in Australian Christianity, perhaps we're all just too much into instant gratification.

PS. For interests sake, how long ago were you at St Docs?

[ 27. September 2012, 23:50: Message edited by: Evangeline ]

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Sir Pellinore
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I was at St Doc's when Michael Nixon was Rector, Evangeline. That's going back a good 20 years.

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Well...

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Laud-able

Ship's Ancient
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Quoting Sir Pellinore:

‘. . . a sort of surface "pastoral care" which didn't really touch the depths of people's needs. . . .. . . most of them - a generalization I know - seemed not to be genuinely happy. . . . for concentrating on externals and a total ignoring of their Shadow side . . .’

I do note that you are talking in general terms, and I am very much aware that I am limited in personal experience, because my commitment for more than sixty years – apart from occasional overseas jaunts - has been made to the one parish. I can only suppose that my fellow parishioners and I have led something of a charmed life.

Much further up the thread Leo wrote:

I am still wondering what the connection between high anglicanism and 'fun' is. 'Fun' strikes me as being about 'entertainment' or of 'making light of' something. . . . The catholic tradition might have flashy robes but it also invites us to regular self-examination and confession, fasting and almsgiving.

Well, if ‘fun’ is too flippant a word, how about ‘cheerful enjoyment’?

Admittedly I would prefer to describe our vestments as ‘not expressed in fancy—rich, not gaudy’, and I don’t know that we would be highly rated for fasting, but we do attend to self-examination, and very much – I believe – to almsgiving and other works of charity.

I don’t want to labour the point, but for at least some Anglo-Catholics it is by no means either a butterfly existence or a life of gloomy disillusion.

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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.

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Sir Pellinore
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Our reactions to most things tend to be entirely subjective, Laud-able. "One man's meat ..."

Whilst not gainsaying anything you've said I think there are many who keep on moving out of the revolving doors of various churches determined not to return.

I do think there is an enormous lack of genuine spiritual depth in Anglicanism in this country. It's that spiritual depth which breeds saints and grows churches. On current figures I think Anglicans are maintaining the situation with the laager.

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Well...

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Laud-able

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With regard to the 'revolving doors', is it perhaps that some people look upon the church (whatever it might be) as a kind of shop - that is, a place to be avoided if it doesn't answer their immediate needs - rather than a community to which they must commit something before they can hope to receive anything in return?

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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.

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Sir Pellinore
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I think people often come, or come back, sometimes for a considerable time, Laud-able and somehow (rightly or wrongly) find it isn't quite their cup of hemlock.

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Well...

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ThunderBunk

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Given my location, it is almost compulsory for me to be interested in the mystic tradition. I duly am, being a regular reader of and meditator on the Revelations of Divine Love. The question is how to join that up with the rest of life, within the church and outside.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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ThunderBunk

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Forgive the double posting, but my previous one has another half, which it almost implies. For me, the drama of liturgy and the deep calm of the mystic tradition are like inhaling and exhaling: neither lives happily without the other. If I go too long without contemplative prayer, I become spiritually undernourished, or the spiritual equivalent of diabetes sets in, owing to an excess of sugar with nothing to create balance; if I go too long without the beauty and drama of liturgy, everything starts to feel dull and excessively worthy.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Laud-able:
Much further up the thread Leo wrote:

I am still wondering what the connection between high anglicanism and 'fun' is. 'Fun' strikes me as being about 'entertainment' or of 'making light of' something. . . . The catholic tradition might have flashy robes but it also invites us to regular self-examination and confession, fasting and almsgiving.

Well, if ‘fun’ is too flippant a word, how about ‘cheerful enjoyment’?

Admittedly I would prefer to describe our vestments as ‘not expressed in fancy—rich, not gaudy’, and I don’t know that we would be highly rated for fasting, but we do attend to self-examination, and very much – I believe – to almsgiving and other works of charity.

I don’t want to labour the point, but for at least some Anglo-Catholics it is by no means either a butterfly existence or a life of gloomy disillusion.

Good - I agree with this.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Sir Pellinore
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I think FOS all traditional Western Christian mystics have been fully practicing members of the Church: Theresa of Avila; John of the Cross; Francis of Assisi etc.

It goes without saying.

My stated "worry" is that conventional Anglo-Catholic religiosity is not engendering this.

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Well...

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tomb
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quote:
Originally posted by Arch Anglo Catholic:
Returning from the misty Isles of Tangent, in my benefice one of the retired clergy wishes to have a requiem for a recently, and dearly missed, departed relative. He fondly remembers the excting days of the late Canon B F Brindley, but feared that the days of Anglo Catholic ebullience had passed, to be replaced with euro tat.

Since a good number of the clergy, retired, NSM and otherwise, are of the High persuasion, this has led to much joy; surprising perhaps in what could be a dismal time?

The fraternal nature of the clergy chapter has led to a steady stream of those who want to help, with increasingly excited ideas with regard to ritual and ceremonial.

This could be vacant, vain and empty, but here it just isn't.

The desire is very much to support and to serve our friend and to worship our God, both with joy in times of hardship. This has put a smile on the face of the bereaved and reinvigorated the elderly retired who are looking forward to donning the black requiem vestments with much glee.

Daft? You might think so, but it's good, old High Anglican joy which filters through. We now have a queue for the sacred ministers...I'm going to MC so steaming handbags at the ready, here we come!

My God, is it possible for you to write a sentence not in the passive voice?
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The Silent Acolyte

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  1. one wishes
  2. he remembers

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Fr Weber
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Most of the sentences in that post seem to be in the active voice.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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SeraphimSarov
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by sydney:
I find these attitudes to the English Missal incredible some would say ignorant. The English Missal was the old Tridentine Rite in English. If that is not centuries of use based on trained and schooled good taste I don't know what is.

I don't know what 'good taste' has to do either with liturgy or the subject of this thread. The 'fun' of anglo- (and most other sorts of) catholicism has always been its over-the-top-ness and exuberance which is miles apart from cathedral dignity. Both have their place of course.
. I'm afraid, however, that there is much A-C fun that is little more than bitchy, queeny, campy, elitist excess. I hope that strain is going the way of the Dodo, frankly.
Queeny and campy need not be synonymous with elitist or bitchy. It is that prejudice that I frankly wish would go the way of the Dodo

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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"

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ThunderBunk

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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
I think FOS all traditional Western Christian mystics have been fully practicing members of the Church: Theresa of Avila; John of the Cross; Francis of Assisi etc.

It goes without saying.

My stated "worry" is that conventional Anglo-Catholic religiosity is not engendering this.

The latter part of that chimes with my experience; sadly, therefore, it doesn't go without saying in the circles in which conventional A-C religiosity is practices.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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BulldogSacristan
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At first glance, I don't see any sentences that in the passive voice?
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