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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Saints’ days on Sundays or Are you looking forward to St Simon and St Jude? (Page 1)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Saints’ days on Sundays or Are you looking forward to St Simon and St Jude?
venbede
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There’s an issue of what to do when a saint’s day falls on Sunday. Under the Vatican II rules I got to know, Sundays in seasons always took precedence and in ordinary time there were only four universal days which over-rode the Sunday – John the Baptist, Peter and Paul, the Assumption of Mary and All Saints.

The C of E gets a bit in a muddle as it has to allow for all the saint’s days Cranmer allotted a collect and gospel (principally all the apostles plus a few) – the red letter days.

The current C of E rules are Advent, Lent and Eastertide Sundays always take precedence. For the rest of the time the decision as to keep the Sunday or the saint’s day is with the minister.
This means in effect that evangelicals and Anglo Papalists will agree in ignoring, eg, St Bartholomew, but High Church and MOTR parishes are likely to keep him.

Now it seems to me that there are a few red letter days where the gospel of the day conveys something very important about the Christian faith, ie Thomas, Mary Magdalen and Matthew.

On the other hand I can see no didactic or liturgical value in keeping Barnabas, Bartholomew, Luke or Simon and Jude on a Sunday, unless they are parish patrons.

Because I have a soft spot for the liturgically exotic, I’m quite fond of Michael and All Angels and the three day after Christmas, but I’m not sure they are more significant than the resurrection.

What do people think?

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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sebby
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Actually I think that VERY High churches would ignore saints' days on Sundays, and transfer to the next feria as in the Roman custom.

Old fashioned (rare) AC churches would keep the Feast on the day (or in the octave), and liberally minded churches that got bored with Trinity-tide.

Here they will be kept, not because we are AC or old fashioned, but to relieve the green.

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sebhyatt

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venbede
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quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Actually I think that VERY High churches would ignore saints' days on Sundays, and transfer to the next feria as in the Roman custom.

To clarify what I said, Vatican II Anglo Papalists would ignore Red Letter Days. The Roman rule was that feasts (as opposed to solemnities) would be completely ignored for the year.

Feasts of Our Lord are another matter.

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Anglican_Brat
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Here in Canada, the rubrics strictly state that unless the Saint is the patron, all Saints' Days should be transferred to the next available weekday.

The theological rationale is that all Sundays are Feasts of Our Lord Jesus Christ. As I wrote on another thread, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity trumps the Saints.

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PD
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We follow the old BCP Calendar so you will get the feasts of the Apostles displacing 2nd class Sundays. It does serve the useful function of breaking up the Big Green, and it gives me something different to preach on. I probably donot quie fit the stereotype of who keeps the Feasts and who follows Sundays after Trinity in that there is a lot more J.c. Ryle on my book shelves than Eric Mascall!

PD

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venbede
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
The theological rationale is that all Sundays are Feasts of Our Lord Jesus Christ. As I wrote on another thread, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity trumps the Saints.

I'd agree, but John the Baptist and Mary are both saying something important about the Second Person of the Trinity.

And it is good to remind people that Saint's Days do exist.

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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leo
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I strongly oppose keeping saints days on Sundays because:

1. The general rule of thumb is that every Sunday is a feast of the Resurrection, a mini Easter, a ‘solemnity’ and that only other solemnities of equal rank, i.e of Our Lord or of the Blessed Virgin Mary can replace it. In jargon, the Temporale always takes place over the Sanctorale.

Why should the Resurrection of the Lord be pushed aside in favour of a Saint?

It goes against the lectionary rules of Common Worship: All Sundays celebrate the paschal mystery of the death and resurrection of the Lord. Nevertheless, they also reflect the character of the seasons in which they are set….. When a Festival occurs on the First or Second Sunday of Christmas, a Sunday of Epiphany, a Sunday before Lent, a Sunday after Trinity or on the Fourth, Third or Second Sundays before Advent, it is always to be observed but may be celebrated either on the Sunday or on the first available day thereafter. – St. Stephen is not listed as a ‘festival’. Those festivals listed are The Naming and Circumcision of Jesus (1 January) The Baptism of Christ (Epiphany 1 or, when 6 January is a Sunday, Epiphany 2)
The Conversion of Paul (25 January)( p. 526 of the standard copy of Common Worship.)

The commercially printed annual lectionary gives readings for days like St. Stephen’s Day and puts them as an option against a Sunday on the understanding that ‘where the day has a special local significance (e.g. it it's your patronal festival) ……the minister must remember the need not to lose the spirit of the season’ – hence we would keep St. Paul but transfer or omit St. Stephen.

2. It flies in the face of liturgical principles established over 4 centuries and against current ecumenical agreement

It's supposed to be a way of binding the whole church together, so that whatever one's worship style or theology we at least all hear the same scriptures

Cranmer’s Reformation principle was that scripture should be read in a continuous manner and that nothing should break continuity. (There was an epistle and gospel in the Book of Common Prayer for St. Stephen and a few other saints – drastically reduced in number from those in the Roman Kalendar – but these were an ‘extra’ to those of Morning Prayer. People would have attended Morning Prayer and The Litany BEFORE Holy Communion so continuity would have not been broken.)

After Vatican 2, the Roman Catholic Church came to the same conclusion as Cranmer and instituted a Revised Lectionary.

Anglicans, Lutherans and Methodists moved to accept a modified version of this – the Revised Common Lectionary.

The lectionary expects us to celebrate some festivals instead of the ordinary Sunday – by having a 3-year cycle of readings, as opposed to, eg. St. Stephen’s, which has only one set of readings.

Candlemas and All Saints Day can be celebrated on a Sunday because these two feasts are seen as ‘hinges’ to the year. The former changes the mood from Christmas to Lent, the latter from ordinary time to ‘the kingdom season’ forwards to Advent.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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venbede
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I totally agree with the principal and would that churches I knew took the lectionary more seriously.

And Harvest Festival and Remembrance Sunday shouldn't take precedence over the lectionary either, I'd have thought.

Nor Sea Sunday, Hospital Sunday or Prisoners Sunday.

But I've looked up your reference to the rubrics of Common Worship and they seem completely permissive - whether to keep the Sunday or the Saint's Day is up to the minister.

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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I don't think that the feast of SS Simon & Jude is a solemnity and personally, I like to follow the example of the Roman Rite duly to observe the solemnity on a Sunday in ordinary time, but the Sunday occurring (in ordinary time) of feasts not solemnities. If it is desired to keep this feast, it can be transferred from Sunday to the next convenient day.

I had a problem at my church when the Nativity of St. John the Baptist was not kept at all (falling on a Sunday this year);but the Sunday feast of St. Mary Magdalene was kept rather than the Sunday occurring. If one but not the other was going to be kept, it should have been the other way round. This is a Church of England anomaly.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
.... Remembrance Sunday shouldn't take precedence over the lectionary either, I'd have thought.

Doesn't have to. November 11th is St Martin's Day - patron saint of both soldiers and pacifists. Remembrance fits perfectly into it, as long as you don't go overboard on the nationalism.

CofE practice of doing saints on Sundays at least means parishes get to remember each one once every seven years or so - as almost no-one goes to midweek events, if they bounced the saints off Sunday no-one would ever do any of them in church at all.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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leo
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What a coincidence - just got new rota and i am asked to preach on Ss.Simon & Jude.

Previous vicar was a member of the liturgical Commission and rightly eschewed saints on Sundays.

New vicar likes saints on Sundays.

BTW - the idea that it is good to keep saints on Sundays because few go on weekdays - depends - we get about ten to weekday mass. I am not convinced that Sunday only attenders are terribly interested in saints. I think the continuous scripture of the lectionary is more edifying to them than one-offs.

[ 08. August 2012, 18:58: Message edited by: leo ]

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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uffda
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Lutherans have been kicking this one around for a while now, with a history of keeping some Saints Days similar to the Anglicans. In the 1978 Lutheran Book of Worship, Saints Days which fell on Sunday in the "green seasons" could replace the Sunday lessons. That's tightened up a bit with the newer Evangelical Book of Worship. e.g. we celebrated St. John the Baptist on June 24, but St. Mary Magdalene was bumped to July 23. Of course you have to figure in the Lutheran propensity to dispense with rubrics and do whatever you want to do.
In our parish we will NOT be looking forward to the feast of Sts. Simon and Jude because that will be trumped by Reformation Sunday which is usually celebrated on the last Sunday of October,
though its proper day is October 31st. All Saints will be celebrated on the first Sunday of November.

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sebby
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
and Remembrance Sunday

I would normally agree that the lectionary takes precedence. However to do so on Remembrance Sunday (certainly in the current climate) would be:

(1) Profoundly to misjudge opinion and current mood

(2) Ignore the opportunity in many places of having (unusually) large numbers of comparatively young people present.


The last few years seem to have seen an amazing resurgence of Remembrance Sunday. Once looking a little old hat, the sight of coffins arriving at Brize Norton and the staggering statistics (largely unknown to the public) of the wounded have given it a startling relevance. One battalion (671 persons) in Afghanistan in 2010 had over 120 casulaties - that is an entire Company out of action with horrendous wounds or onset PTSD. And PTSD diagnosis has only just begun for that battalion. They return there in October.

A regiment known to me has been continuously deployed for over nine years. They are still there. Average age? Probably 23. Two guys who lost both legs, one of them an eye, both of them fingers, were 18. They are now 20. When this war is over, I pray that they will not be forgotten by an embarrassed nation - and church.


Last year at home in a village largely of retired people, I was amazed to see that on Remembrance Sunday the average age of the congregation easily halved - and that was discounting Scouts etc. And, I noticed people QUEUING to get in. The two members of the RBL carrying wreaths were aged 32 and 34 - and men.

The 19 year old in the shoe shop who sold me some deck shoes wore a Help-For-Heroes wrist band. I asked him if he had any miltiary connections and his answer was: 'some mates from school, but it is the least I can do.'

I also noticed that in a very large evangelical CofE parish in Sheffield, the usual service was entirely abandoned and something more in tune with Remembrance, done in their own style, was done.

This is not a political statement as many of those who would attend and give money to H4H do not beleive in the war politically, but support the individual soldiers.

There are many young people, especially in the North in places such as Manchester, Preston, Liverpool, Warrington, Carlisle etc who would feel Remembrance Sunday very deeply. The sight of many serving and ex-servicemen and war widows (one known to me: age 19) going to church probably for the first time voluntarily since primary school is very, very striking.

The church must not fuck this one up.

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sebhyatt

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Ceremoniar
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The Roman rule is that Sundays of Advent, Lent and Easter take precedence. Sundays in Ordinary Time are pre-empted only by a solemnity or a feast of Our Lord.

Solemnities that could, therefore, pre-empt an ordinary Sunday would be:

Corpus Christi (when transferred)
Nativity of St. John Baptist
Sts. Peter and Paul
Assumption
All Saints
A patronal or titular feast of a church/diocese

Feasts of Our Lord that could pre-empt an ordinary Sunday would be:

Presentation, 2 Feb
Triumph of the Holy Cross, 14 Sept
Dedication of St. John Lateran (Archbasilica of Our Savior, therefore a feast of Our Lord), 9 Nov

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venbede
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And the Transfiguration (one of the Twelve Great Feasts of the Orthodox Church).

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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The Scrumpmeister
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Indeed, venbede. Indeed, that particular Great Feast falls on a Sunday this year and the propers of the feast will supersede all those of the Resurrection. In the Byzanti e Rite, only a Great Feast of the Lord has this privilege. Great Feasts of the Mother of God and indeed, commemorations of any other saints, falling on a Sunday, have their propers combined with those of the Resurrection but never replace them.

The Byzantine Rite makes a big deal, though, of the Resurrection in its Sunday prayers and hymnody in a way that was quite a surprise to me as a new convert. Replacing these with those of a saint would be very noticeable indeed and would seem very much out of place in a way that perhaps it would not in the Roman Rite in its various forms.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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New Yorker
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In the modern Roman Rite doesn't All Souls also replace a Sunday?
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Emendator Liturgia
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To provide a view from down-under, where many of the liturgical celebrations held in common are at the totally wrong time of year for us: I mean, celebrating Christmas with its scenes of bitter cold, raging snow storms etc when it is 35 degress C outside and the candles are drooping; where Candlemas would be in the bright glare of sunshine; and Lent, 'a spring' time festival, is when the ground is the most scorched.

For many years now a succession of churches have kept saints days that fall on a Saturday or Monday on the Sunday. Given that our parishes here are increasingly not even suburb based (let alone small town or village based), and people travel up to an hour each way to worship, weekday celebrations are just not practical. And that is in the city, country areas are even worse; nothing unusual of about finishing a service at one centre, hopping in your car and driving for 45 minutes at 100km/h to get to the next service.

People need to know the rhythm of the church year; after all, they have already lost much of the rhythm of the normal cycle of the year.

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Quam Dilecta
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The Sunday versus saint's days debate would lose most of its steam if "commemorations" had not disappeared from the newer missals and prayer books. They allowed one to have his liturgical cake and eat it too. When a Sunday and another feast occurred on the same day, the readings at mass were of whichever day which took precedence, but the collect of other feast was read after the collect of the day. Thus Sunday worshipers were reminded, as one shipmate has written, that saint's days do exist.

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Sarum Sleuth
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My current workplace (cathedral) and old parish keep the saint when they occur on Sunday. My preious workplace (collegiate church) transferred to Monday. All three sre liberal catholic so transferring is not necessarily a Papalist option.

SS

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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue

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(S)pike couchant
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I think there is much to be said for the custom of commemoration: i.e. using the propers of the Sunday but with the addition of the collect and postcommunion of the saint's day and with the gospel appointed for that read as the last gospel. The Church year is, after all, a multilayered thing, as it must be if it is to reflect life. Those portions of the Western Church that 'modernized' their liturgies after Vatican II have largely forgotten this fact, but it survives amongst the orthodox and amongst a liturgically conservative minority in the Anglican and Roman Catholic Communions.

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dj_ordinaire
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I agree that the life of any individual saint is clearly subordinate to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ but at the same time I suspect that downplaying the commemoration of saints entirely is not a wholly wise move. The fact that their live's showed God's Grace - and the fact that traditionally they are also believed to pray for us - are important for our own Salvation, not merely adiaphora.

... or this is how is seems to me anyway!

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Angloid
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I don't really like saints' days interrupting the Sunday lectionary cycle. It was OK in the days of the BCP (or even ASB) when there was no continuity in the readings.

But the argument that Sunday should never be superseded by a Saint's day, because it's the commemoration of the Resurrection, doesn't seem quite right to me. Isn't a saint's day in itself a celebration of the Resurrection? Without the Resurrection we wouldn't have saints and we certainly wouldn't be celebrating their heavenly birthdays.

A major feature of the Easter Vigil in the Roman Rite is the Litany of the Saints. That is just so suited, IMHO, to the celebration of the Resurrection.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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venbede
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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
In the modern Roman Rite doesn't All Souls also replace a Sunday?

I don't know the current position, but directly after Vatican II the mass for All Souls would replace the Sunday mass although not the office.

I have certainly been to a church with a requiem on Sunday 2 November.

As I understand the current position in England and Wales is that All Saints (and other holy days of obligation - Peter'n'Paul, Assumption) are transferred to Sunday if they fall on Saturday or Sunday.

If 2 November is a Sunday, then All Saints will have fallen on Saturday. Ergo, All Souls is not celebrated on a Sunday in England and Wales.

[ 09. August 2012, 14:42: Message edited by: venbede ]

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
I think there is much to be said for the custom of commemoration: i.e. using the propers of the Sunday but with the addition of the collect and postcommunion of the saint's day and with the gospel appointed for that read as the last gospel. The Church year is, after all, a multilayered thing, as it must be if it is to reflect life. Those portions of the Western Church that 'modernized' their liturgies after Vatican II have largely forgotten this fact, but it survives amongst the orthodox and amongst a liturgically conservative minority in the Anglican and Roman Catholic Communions.

Absolutely and utterly not. There is only one collect allowed - having more than one collect defeats the object of having a collect in the first place.

Now you CAN remember saints at the end of the intercessions.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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venbede
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Typo alert.

I said days of obligation are transferred to Sunday if they fall on Saturday or Sunday.

I meant Saturday or Monday. (So those who go to evening mass don't muddle the day up or fail to go to two masses. A rather questionable practice to my mind.)

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I strongly oppose keeping saints days on Sundays because:

1. The general rule of thumb is that every Sunday is a feast of the Resurrection, a mini Easter, a ‘solemnity’ and that only other solemnities of equal rank, i.e of Our Lord or of the Blessed Virgin Mary can replace it. In jargon, the Temporale always takes place over the Sanctorale.

Why should the Resurrection of the Lord be pushed aside in favour of a Saint?

We celebrate the saints only because they point us toward Jesus. The feast of St Matthew is just as much a celebration of the Resurrection as Trinity 19.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Anglican_Brat
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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I strongly oppose keeping saints days on Sundays because:

1. The general rule of thumb is that every Sunday is a feast of the Resurrection, a mini Easter, a ‘solemnity’ and that only other solemnities of equal rank, i.e of Our Lord or of the Blessed Virgin Mary can replace it. In jargon, the Temporale always takes place over the Sanctorale.

Why should the Resurrection of the Lord be pushed aside in favour of a Saint?

We celebrate the saints only because they point us toward Jesus. The feast of St Matthew is just as much a celebration of the Resurrection as Trinity 19.
The problem with that argument is that it leads to the demise of ordinary time. By that logic, we can find enough saints to displace all 52 Sundays of the year. After the Festal season from Advent to Trinity, the season of Ordinary Time is intended to instruct the faithful about the teachings and miracles of Our Lord for Christian formation.

Again, if churches want to honor the Saints, provide weekday services so that the Saints can be honored on their proper days. As well, people can always honor the Saints at home, in their private devotions. Sunday worship typically should be focused on latria not dulia .

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Modern Roman practice is for Solemnities and Feasts of the Lord to get observed on Sundays in Ordinary Time. Other saints days get overtaken by the Sunday.

This sort of makes sense. The Sunday cycle, reading through a gospel and celebrating weekly the Lord's resurrection, really shouldn't be frequently interrupted. I think those using CW/ BCP/ whatever else calendars would be well advised to keep Sunday saints to a minimum. Certainly nothing should get in the way of Advent, Lent, and (above all) Eastertide.

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I strongly oppose keeping saints days on Sundays because:

1. The general rule of thumb is that every Sunday is a feast of the Resurrection, a mini Easter, a ‘solemnity’ and that only other solemnities of equal rank, i.e of Our Lord or of the Blessed Virgin Mary can replace it. In jargon, the Temporale always takes place over the Sanctorale.

Why should the Resurrection of the Lord be pushed aside in favour of a Saint?

We celebrate the saints only because they point us toward Jesus. The feast of St Matthew is just as much a celebration of the Resurrection as Trinity 19.
The problem with that argument is that it leads to the demise of ordinary time. By that logic, we can find enough saints to displace all 52 Sundays of the year. After the Festal season from Advent to Trinity, the season of Ordinary Time is intended to instruct the faithful about the teachings and miracles of Our Lord for Christian formation.


That's why there are tables of precedence. The 1928 (US) book has a very simple and easy-to-follow table.

Although we are a Missal parish, the rule in our diocese is that the prayer book always takes precedence. So although a Sunday after Trinity might be displaced by Ss Simon & Jude, or St Mark, or the Purification, it won't be displaced by the feast of the Precious Blood or by St Lawrence--non BCP feasts can always be commemorated with their proper collects, secrets, & post-communions.

I have to confess I don't really get the implication that we are not worshiping God when we honor his saints. The saints' merits, after all, are only the merits of Christ, received by grace.

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venbede
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Fr W - I think those C of E parishes that are most enthusiastic about keeping BCP 1662 red letter saints will be those least bothered by the doctrine of the intercession of the saints.

That some saint's days take precedence over Sundays seems quite right. The question is which.

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Olaf
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The Catholic practice of using the day's appointed lectionary readings on weekday memorials is, in my opinion, a noteworthy practice. For instance, next Tuesday is the Memorial of St. Maximilian Kolbe, but the readings are simply of Tuesday of the Nineteenth Week in Ordinary Time. The saint can be duly memorialized through mentions in the prayers and homily, but the cycle of the year is not thrown off.

Perhaps this same tactic could be allowed with Ordinary Sundays?

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Anglican_Brat
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
The Catholic practice of using the day's appointed lectionary readings on weekday memorials is, in my opinion, a noteworthy practice. For instance, next Tuesday is the Memorial of St. Maximilian Kolbe, but the readings are simply of Tuesday of the Nineteenth Week in Ordinary Time. The saint can be duly memorialized through mentions in the prayers and homily, but the cycle of the year is not thrown off.

Perhaps this same tactic could be allowed with Ordinary Sundays?

I agree with this suggestion. I'm not one of those people who insist that there should only be one collect of the Day at Mass (I mourn the loss of the recitation of the collect of Advent and Lent everyday during their respective seasons in the modern rubrics).

I would be fine if the RCL readings were retained during Ordinary Time and a collect for a Saint recited after the standard collect for the Sunday.

[ 09. August 2012, 19:53: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]

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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
In the modern Roman Rite doesn't All Souls also replace a Sunday?

Yes, it does--a practice that I find novel and positively bizarre. [Mad]

In the Extraordinary Form (including my own FSSP parish), when All Souls falls on a Sunday, it is transferred to the next day. [Angel]

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PD
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Having just drained my stein it occurs to me that 10/28 is likely to be a liturgical cluster f*** in my diocese unless I send out a notice stating the rules of engagement. Some will go for Simon and Jude; others for Reformation Sunday; and the balance for Christ the King; and someone is bound to forget and do Trinity-whatever.

Ta for the heads up!

PD

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Having just drained my stein it occurs to me that 10/28 is likely to be a liturgical cluster f*** in my diocese unless I send out a notice stating the rules of engagement. Some will go for Simon and Jude; others for Reformation Sunday; and the balance for Christ the King; and someone is bound to forget and do Trinity-whatever.

Ta for the heads up!

PD

I doubt that our choice would surprise you, +PD. We can hardly avoid it!

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PD
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Indeed not. In my parish, which tends to be very '28, will go the other way and observe SS. Simon and Jude, then try and work up some energy for doing a decent job on All Saints. Those following the Ordo - a novel thought for some - will do CtK.

PD

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venbede
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Father Weber's post sent me to have a look at an old RC missal. With all the Doubles of Second Class bumping the green Sundays, and having votive masses every weekday, I wonder if pre-Vaticn II congregations ever saw a green chasuble in use except on half the possible Sundays.

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PD
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How old a Roman Missal were you looking at? Pius X's revision of the Calendar (1914) greatly reduced the number of Sundays that get bumped - on the Pius X rules there are five or six Green Sundays that get the bump-da-bump this year. It would have been considerably higher before 1914, and of course, lower after 1955, and again after the 1960/2 revision.

PD

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venbede
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I didn't do a count - I just realised there were a lot of Doubles of the Second Class in English Missal and a 1920s Daily Missal.

Five in one year is a lot.

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(S)pike couchant
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
I think there is much to be said for the custom of commemoration: i.e. using the propers of the Sunday but with the addition of the collect and postcommunion of the saint's day and with the gospel appointed for that read as the last gospel. The Church year is, after all, a multilayered thing, as it must be if it is to reflect life. Those portions of the Western Church that 'modernized' their liturgies after Vatican II have largely forgotten this fact, but it survives amongst the orthodox and amongst a liturgically conservative minority in the Anglican and Roman Catholic Communions.

Absolutely and utterly not. There is only one collect allowed - having more than one collect defeats the object of having a collect in the first place.

For those who slavishly adhere to a set of liturgical norms made up by trendy types in the 1960s, you're right. For those whose liturgical praxis draws on more venerable traditions of the Western Church, as received in a spirit of humility, then there may be up to seven collects. Anglicanism has traditionally had three (for purity, of the day, and for the regnant monarch), with four during Lent and Advent. Certainly, a brief examination of service sheeets from the world's most liturgically correct Anglican parish, and they regularly do what I suggest: e.g. since the Nativity of John the Baptist fell this year on a Sunday, they had:

The minor propers for the feast

The Collect for the feast followed by the collect of the Sunday

The Epistle and Gospel proper to the feast (Isaiah 49.3 and S. Luke 1.57)

The poscommunion for the feast followed by that of the Sunday

The Gospel of the Sunday (S. Luke 15) read as the Last Gospel.

Very seemly and edifying .

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venbede
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The C of E Liturgical Commission has been quite enthusiastic about a Last Gospel for festivals, other than John 1.

I'm not aware of any older precedent for varying the Last Gospel from John 1 (other than on Christmas Day). (S)pike's benchmark church would appear to be being highly innovative.

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(S)pike couchant
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The C of E Liturgical Commission has been quite enthusiastic about a Last Gospel for festivals, other than John 1.

I'm not aware of any older precedent for varying the Last Gospel from John 1 (other than on Christmas Day). (S)pike's benchmark church would appear to be being highly innovative.

quote:
The normal last Gospel is John 1:1-14.... Whenever an office is commemorated, whose Gospel is begun in the ninth lesson of Matins, that Gospel is substituted for John 1, at the end of Mass. In this case the Missal must be brought to the north side (at high Mass by the subdeacon). This applies to all Sundays, feriæe, and vigils that are commemorated. At the third Mass on Christmas day (since John 1:1-14 forms the Gospel of the Mass) that of the Epiphany is read at the end; at low Mass on Palm Sunday the Gospel of the blessing of palms is read. Of Eastern Rites the Armenians alone have copied this practice of the last Gospel from the Latins.
— Adrian Fortescue, 'The Gospel in the Liturgy', The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1909.

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venbede
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Live and learn.

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Ceremoniar
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quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
For those who slavishly adhere to a set of liturgical norms made up by trendy types in the 1960s, you're right. For those whose liturgical praxis draws on more venerable traditions of the Western Church, as received in a spirit of humility, then there may be up to seven collects. Anglicanism has traditionally had three (for purity, of the day, and for the regnant monarch), with four during Lent and Advent. Certainly, a brief examination of service sheeets from the world's most liturgically correct Anglican parish, and they regularly do what I suggest: e.g. since the Nativity of John the Baptist fell this year on a Sunday, they had:

The minor propers for the feast

The Collect for the feast followed by the collect of the Sunday

The Epistle and Gospel proper to the feast (Isaiah 49.3 and S. Luke 1.57)

The poscommunion for the feast followed by that of the Sunday

The Gospel of the Sunday (S. Luke 15) read as the Last Gospel.

Very seemly and edifying .

What, no secrets? [Help]
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
I think there is much to be said for the custom of commemoration: i.e. using the propers of the Sunday but with the addition of the collect and postcommunion of the saint's day and with the gospel appointed for that read as the last gospel. The Church year is, after all, a multilayered thing, as it must be if it is to reflect life. Those portions of the Western Church that 'modernized' their liturgies after Vatican II have largely forgotten this fact, but it survives amongst the orthodox and amongst a liturgically conservative minority in the Anglican and Roman Catholic Communions.

Absolutely and utterly not. There is only one collect allowed - having more than one collect defeats the object of having a collect in the first place.

For those who slavishly adhere to a set of liturgical norms made up by trendy types in the 1960s, you're right.
Not ;made up' in the 1960s. It was a return to the invariable practice of the early church, where sons went on until the bishop/presider arrived and every one was, thus, 'collected' My Latin is rusty but it was something like 'ad collectum' and was in the singular - i think.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It was a return to the invariable practice of the early church, where sons went on until the bishop/presider arrived

...and daughters, presumably! [Biased]

The practice of gabbling multiple collects is only slightly worse than those priests who say 'Let us pray' and then immediately launch into the prayer. The point of the 'collect' is not just to mark the gathering of the community but to gather their individual prayers together. Hence there needs to be silence between the bidding and the recital of the collect. Of which, as Leo says, there is one only.

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PD
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I am always a bit wary of the 1960s revisions because there is a lot of 'archeologicalism.' Unfortunately, there was an iconoclastic element to the implimentation of the Reform that has dislocated liturgical tradition causing a great deal of confusion frustration and dislocation. The worst element was that it made 'change' the new normal, which has tended to cause a disconnect between the liturgy and the laity until the new forms became the normal - only for them to be changed again! Arrgghh!

PD

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
But the argument that Sunday should never be superseded by a Saint's day, because it's the commemoration of the Resurrection, doesn't seem quite right to me. Isn't a saint's day in itself a celebration of the Resurrection? Without the Resurrection we wouldn't have saints and we certainly wouldn't be celebrating their heavenly birthdays.

I agree. I’ve never understood this argument that celebrating a saint would somehow ‘displace’ the Resurrection. Although every Sunday commemorates the Resurrection, the readings and collect for the day won’t necessarily mention the Resurrection any more than the readings for the Saint. In fact I’ve been to plenty of services where you’d have no idea that’s what it was about [Disappointed]

Sundays in Ordinary Time can feel… well, Ordinary. And I’m afraid I can’t generally remember the readings from one week to the next, so the sequence thing was lost on me [Hot and Hormonal] I think the occasional saint’s day on a Sunday adds to, not detracts from, the festal quality of a Sunday.

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
Great Feasts of the Mother of God and indeed, commemorations of any other saints, falling on a Sunday, have their propers combined with those of the Resurrection but never replace them.

The Byzantine Rite makes a big deal, though, of the Resurrection in its Sunday prayers and hymnody in a way that was quite a surprise to me as a new convert. Replacing these with those of a saint would be very noticeable indeed and would seem very much out of place in a way that perhaps it would not in the Roman Rite in its various forms.

(PS – Scrumpmeister – don’t know why your quote comes with your old name!)

I think that would be two good ideas for any future liturgical commission to consider: that we should sometimes ‘add together’ two things that fall on the same day (rather than selling either of them short) and perhaps that if we say we are celebrating the Resurrection every Sunday we should actually do it!

Oh, and in answer to the OP: I'm looking forward to Simon and Jude very much! They are our patrons here.

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venbede
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(S)pike - that is an elegant solution - to have the Sunday gospel at the end, and I appreciate there is sort of precedent.

Nonetheless it is an innovation. Like having "Shine Jesus shine" as the gradual.

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And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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