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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Orate Fratres
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
I know not a very inclusive title for the thread... Sorry, but it is what it's known as often.
What Is this invitation and prayer about at Mass - is it really necessary.
I can't understand quite what it is about and would love to discuss it here, and see what others think.
Ok? That's a starter, will contribute more if it's a goer.
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Mary, a priest??
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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199
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Posted
Traditionally, it is prayed silently at a high mass. I think it's particularly important to include in an Anglican service, as it's the only place that explicitly mentions the sacrificial nature of the mass.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
Thanks for a very quick response. Could I comment.
Could you point me to the order for a High Mass please. I am interested to see what it says about the Orate Fratres - I believe it has to be said out loud in a RC mass.
Now you say about sacrifice language. But is this about that. It doesn't seem to be about Jesus. It's more about the priest and people's sacrifice. I do find this a difficult area. - hence raising it.
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Mary, a priest??
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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199
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Posted
It must be said in an 'audible voice', where that means 'audible to the deacon, subdeacon or server who is responding'. In most parish high masses, this will happen during either an anthem or a hymn. Some Anglican parishes wait until this is finished to begin the prayer, again presumably to emphasize the sacrificial nature of the rite, which is sadly under emphasized in the Anglican rite, to the extent that I think that many Anglicans in the pews are not aware that the Church teaches that the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice and oblation for the quick and the dead.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
Some Anglican bishops would be surprised to hear that the Church teaches the sacrifice of the Mass in any form other than that reasonable sacrifice of 'ourselves, our souls and bodies' to Christ service. Though I am generally happy enough thinking of the Eucharist as an effectual memorial (anmnesis) of the one perfect sacrifice once offered, I would tend, on doctrinal grounds to depreciate any langauge that sounds as though the each Mass is individually a sacrifice; thus I avoid using the 'Orate, fratres' because it is liable to be misconstrued by the malicious and unlearned - as my old boss used to say.
PD
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Emendator Liturgia
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# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
It must be said in an 'audible voice', where that means 'audible to the deacon, subdeacon or server who is responding'.
Spike, this may well be the case in Anglo_catholic churches in the UK, but as you can see here, a 2010 offering from ICEL, the Orate Fratres is said aloud facing the people, even sung!
I wonder whether the whole notion of sacrifice in the Mass is being so eroded in Anglican liturgy that many or most of the laos have not idea at all of sacrifice (of any kind)?
The term ‘sacrifice’ has in our own day, largely arising from the fact that it is a highly charged term. In modern common usage, the word has acceptable and positive expressions of self-deprivation, inconvenience, endurance, even suffering. But it also has many negative connotations. While sacrifice was a near universal feature of religion in the ancient world, the living reality of the ancient sacrificial cultus is not part of our culture.
But many others see it as reeking of primitive superstition, accompanied by images of animals and human beings sacrificed on bloody altars as a means of propitiating an angry deity.
Some theologians argue that the whole notion of sacrifice belongs to a particular era of human evolution and religious development that is now over , while others argue that the whole subject has become suspect because of its association with the glorification of war and suffering.
It is a sign of the extreme unease felt by some Christians that the compilers of Hymns Ancient and Modern felt compelled to change the last two lines of Folliott Pierpoint’s simple call to give thanks to God for the beauties of the world:
For the beauty of the earth,
for the beauty of the skies,
for the love which from our birth
over and around us lies:
Christ, our God, to thee we raise
this our sacrifice of praise.
To this:
Lord of all, to thee we raise
This our grateful hymn of praise.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
Spike, this may well be the case in Anglo_catholic churches in the UK, but as you can see here, a 2010 offering from ICEL, the Orate Fratres is said aloud facing the people, even sung!
(S)pike did state "traditionally," so I think it can be taken to mean what now is referred to as the Extraordinary Form. One typically doesn't hear "high mass" too often with the modern Ordinary Form mass.
As far as including it in Anglican services, how often does it actually appear in official Anglican liturgies? I've encountered it often enough in Anglo-Catholic places, but as a supplement that they had intentionally added in.
There certainly must be a share of Anglicans worldwide who take Article 31 for what it says.
The "normal" text of the Orate Fratres cannot be all too important, as the mass in French includes an alternative which likewise evokes the concept of sacrifice. With as many French speakers as there are in the world, why would an alternative be allowed to go on for so long if it is not also valid?
[ETA: Hymns Ancient & Modern must have been really concerned, for the hymn aforementioned can be just as easily interpreted to refer to a very Anglican "sacrifice of praise." We Lutherans don't even raise an eyebrow about it.]
[ 20. August 2012, 00:55: Message edited by: Olaf ]
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Emendator Liturgia
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# 17245
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Posted
I'm not totally sure that this disucssion shouldn't be heading more towards Hell than Ecclesiantics.
From my own experience, the Orate Fratres has not appeared in any of the printed orders of service in any of the Anglican churches that I have attended around the world, though I have strong suspicions that it was used. Unfortunately, nowhere as public as, for instance, the ICEL orffering I gave above.
Many of the tensions and disputes within Christianity stems from the fact that nowhere in the pages of the New Testament is the eucharist explicitly called a sacrifice, that is, in the way of priests offering animals and cereal-offerings that we find in the Old Testament, although there are passages that are couched in language which can be viewed as having sacrificial overtones.
Paul Bradshaw contends that Matthew 5:23-4 may be the earliest text to explicitly describe an act of Christian worship as a sacrifice. More direct interpretation of the death of Christ in sacrificial terms, influencing the Eucharistic interpretation of his death and giving it a sacrificial aspect, are found in other passages. For instance, St. Paul strongly hints at such a sacrificial interpretation, for instance when in I Corinthians 10:14-22 he compares the Eucharist to Jewish and pagan sacrifices.
The Institution accounts are couched in language with unequivocal sacrificial overtones: the sacrificial significance of “the body” and “the blood that will be shed” is unmistakable, and the idea is reinforced by the word “covenant” in the saying over the cup, indicating that the early church, in seeing in the eucharistic celebration either a sacrificial event or an event laden with sacrificial connotations (two distinct concepts which we, after the fact, might perceive to be present or latent in the New Testament writings ), were expressing an understanding of the word ‘sacrifice’ in the pure sense of the combined Latin words sacrum facere, ‘to make holy’.
[ 20. August 2012, 02:16: Message edited by: Emendator Liturgia ]
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
I'm not totally sure that this disucssion shouldn't be heading more towards Hell than Ecclesiantics.
I'm not sure why you think that, but I do think you should trust the board hosts to know when to redirect a thread. If you would like a robust debate that focuses on modern sensibilities about sacrifice, you might consider opening a thread on it in Purgatory. Just a thought. Meanwhile, let me suggest that you keep Commandment 5 in mind: "Don't easily offend, don't be easily offended."
Mamacita, Eccles Host
[ 20. August 2012, 03:22: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Emendator Liturgia
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# 17245
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Posted
My apologies, I did not mean to infer anything about the work of the Mods or anything- just noting that possibly my mposting might be seen as taking the thread in both scope and depth more towards Purgatory (sorry for saying Hell , had the wrong Board in mind).
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
Tinguess I don't have a problem in playing down sacrifice language at Mass. It seems confused in its use, and not very clear in its meaning. Whose sacrifice - 'ours' or the Lord's. The sacrifice 'at your hands' or the sacrifice of the Lord on the Cross.
If the whole mass is seen as a sacrifice then shouldn't the orate Fratres go at the beginning.
I don't know a lot about Orthodoxy but I know some Anglicans have been influenced by it in their liturgies. Does Orthodoxy have this notion expressed in its liturgies?
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Mary, a priest??
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
If people are getting the idea (from the use of that bidding or otherwise) that the mass is 'a' sacrifice as distinct from a participation in the 'one oblation of himself once offered', then I can see there is a perfectly good reason why it is not part of Anglican liturgy. I don't interpret it in that way myself, which is why I don't object to using it: though I find it hard to see the point of the distinction between 'my sacrifice and yours': why not just 'our sacrifice'?
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iamchristianhearmeroar
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# 15483
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Posted
quote:
the Orate Fratres has not appeared in any of the printed orders of service in any of the Anglican churches that I have attended around the world
St Alban's Holborn certainly does. I imagine there are several more in London who do as well.
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
If people are getting the idea (from the use of that bidding or otherwise) that the mass is 'a' sacrifice as distinct from a participation in the 'one oblation of himself once offered', then I can see there is a perfectly good reason why it is not part of Anglican liturgy. I don't interpret it in that way myself, which is why I don't object to using it: though I find it hard to see the point of the distinction between 'my sacrifice and yours': why not just 'our sacrifice'?
Fr Zed on the subject.
Thurible
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
Well, I can see that it fits with a certain slant on RC theology, but it's difficult to reconcile with Anglican tradition.
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Crowd: We're all individuals!
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kingsfold
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# 1726
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Posted
quote:
posted by Emendator Liturgia:
From my own experience, the Orate Fratres has not appeared in any of the printed orders of service in any of the Anglican churches that I have attended around the world, though I have strong suspicions that it was used.
It's printed in the Order of Service and used regularly in a Scottish Episcopal Parish locally.
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
It's the sort of thing that makes the Prottier members of our congregation nervous, so I tend to say it secretly or in a low voice (in dialogue with the server[s]).
Hm, the secret prayers at the offertory would probably give them the vapors...
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
many Anglicans in the pews are not aware that the Church teaches that the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice and oblation for the quick and the dead.
Which church would that be? The Anglican Church has never taught this (at least, not since the reformation.
(S)pike Couchant's post has the air of a windup and trying too hard at that. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Comper's Child
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# 10580
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Posted
St Paul's Church "K" Street in Washington DC says (and prints) the Orate Fratres as Sorores IIRC.
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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
many Anglicans in the pews are not aware that the Church teaches that the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice and oblation for the quick and the dead.
Which church would that be? The Anglican Church has never taught this (at least, not since the reformation.
There are, of course, no differences whatsoever in the sacramental theology of the Churches of England and of Rome, and have not been since the Oxford Movement demonstrated that any such differences arose from misunderstandings only.
Such, at least, is the understanding of the Catholic wing of the CofE. Our protty brethren doubtless would disagree. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Seriously, though, I think that a belief in the sacrificial nature of the holy mass is a real litmus test dividing the Anglo-Catholics from the simply High Church. Not that I have any disrespect for the latter, but many of them seem no contradiction between a high ecclesiology and a theology that is, basically, Protestant. I don't think however, that one can share their views and call oneself a Catholic of any variety.
[ 20. August 2012, 18:48: Message edited by: (S)pike couchant ]
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
many Anglicans in the pews are not aware that the Church teaches that the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice and oblation for the quick and the dead.
Which church would that be? The Anglican Church has never taught this (at least, not since the reformation.
There are, of course, no differences whatsoever in the sacramental theology of the Churches of England and of Rome, and have not been since the Oxford Movement demonstrated that any such differences arose from misunderstandings only.y.
What brand of incense are you smoking? And can i have some?
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
I can see that some churches - Anglo Catholic - say Orate Fratres. I accept that. BUT I still have to read a convincing argument as to why it should be included - what's the point of saying it.
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Mary, a priest??
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Trisagion
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# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I can see that some churches - Anglo Catholic - say Orate Fratres. I accept that. BUT I still have to read a convincing argument as to why it should be included - what's the point of saying it.
Thurible has already pointed you in the direction of an answer. Perhaps you could now tell us why you think Fr Z's explanation doesn't satisfy you.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Does Orthodoxy have this notion expressed in its liturgies?
Many times over, both in the liturgical action and the spoken word. Christ as both Priest (the One Who offers) and Victim (the One Who is offered) is expressed, as well as the belief that the whole Church and particularly the local congregation joins its sacrifice to that of Christ, as well as the understanding that within this the priest has a particular role of sacrificial role of offering as it takes place at his hands, not forgetting the expression of the belief that the whole of the cosmos - all of creation - is taken up in that sacrificial offering.
One of the most poignant moments for me is at the preparation of the Gifts, when the Lamb (the bread that is to be consecrated as the Body of Christ) is pierced with the spear, followed immediately by the filling of the chalice with the wine and water, as the priest says words from the account of the Passion in John 19:
quote:
One of the soldiers pierced his side with a lance, and immediately there came out blood and water.
The name of "Lamb" itself evokes sacrifice. Also, when the deacon is censing about the altar in readiness to receive the Gifts, he quietly prays Psalm 50, which ends with these verses, (some of which are repeated shortly afterwards later by the priest as he censes the Gifts on the Holy Table):
quote:
17 O Lord, Thou wilt open my lips,
and my mouth shall declare Thy praise.
18 For if Thou hadst desired sacrifice,
I would have given it.
Burnt-offerings do not please Thee.
19 The sacrifice for God is a broken spirit;
a broken and humbled heart God will not despise.
20 Gladden Zion, O Lord, with Thy goodwill,
and let the walls of Jerusalem be built.
21 Then Thou wilt be pleased
with the sacrifice of righteousness,
the oblation and burnt-offerings;
then they will offer calves on Thy altar.
The Anaphora (Eucharistic Canon in western terminology) is prefaced by the deacon calling the people to attention, with the words:
quote:
Let us stand well; let us stand with fear; let us attend, that we may offer the Holy Oblation in peace.
Yet what I find most beautiful, though I myself never hear it prayed, is the priest's prayer as the altar is being prepared to receive the Gifts:
quote:
None is worthy among those who are bound with fleshly lusts and pleasures, to approach or to draw nigh, or to minister to Thee, O King of glory, for to serve Thee is a great and fearful thing even to the heavenly hosts themselves. Yet because of thine indescribable and immeasurable love for mankind, without change or alteration Thou didst become man, and didst become our High Priest, and didst deliver unto us the ministry of this liturgical and bloodless sacrifice, for Thou art the Master of all. Thou alone, O Lord our God, rulest over those in heaven and those on earth, art borne upon the throne of the Cherubim, art Lord of the Seraphim and King of Israel, Thou alone art holy and restest in the saints.
I implore Thee, therefore, Who alone art good and inclined to listen: Look upon me thy sinful and unprofitable servant, and purge my soul and heart of a wicked conscience, and, by the power of thy Holy Spirit, enable me, who am clothed with the grace of the priesthood, to stand before this thy Holy Table, and to perform the sacred Mystery of thy Holy and Most Pure Body and Precious Blood.
For I draw nigh to Thee, bowing my neck, and I pray Thee: Turn not thy face away from me, neither cast me out from among thy children, but grant that these gifts may be offered to Thee by me, thy sinful and unworthy servant: for Thou art He Who offers and is offered, He Who accepts and is distributed, O Christ our God, and to Thee do we send up glory, together with thy Father Who is without beginning, and thy most holy and good and life-creating Spirit, now and ever and to the ages of ages.
These are just snippets, and there is much more, but the answer to your question about a sacrificial understanding of the Eucharist is that it is expressed very strongly in our worship.
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otyetsfoma
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# 12898
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Posted
All these prayers from the Orthodox liturgy point to the one sacrifice once offerred is mystically (i.e. sacramentally) brought present. The theologians of the papal church have attempted since the middle ages to demonstrate that each mass is a separate sacrifice in its own right. Canon Eugene Masure in his book "Le Sacrifice du Chef" came close to the better doctrine of sacramental sacrifice, but his has not been the dominant theory: rather they have disputed among themselves which element or moment in the mass effects the immolation (destruction?) of the sacrifice. A very Irish and very evangelical clrrgyperson I knew in Canada, denying in a partizan and polemical way that the Holy Communion service was a sacrifice, expounded his view of the sacrificial aspect of the HC service in terms similar to Canon Masure's book. When I pointed this out to him he replied-" I know - I don't know how he gets away with it in his church!"
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
The theologians of the papal church have attempted since the middle ages to demonstrate that each mass is a separate sacrifice in its own right.
This a wind-up, right? "The papal church"?
This is what we teach:
quote:
At the Last Supper, Our Savior instituted the Eucharistic Sacrifice of his Body and Blood, by which the Sacrifice of his Cross is perpetuated until he comes again. (Sacrosanctum Concilium, 47).
Or try this:
quote:
As often as the sacrifice of the cross in which Christ our Passover was sacrificed, is celebrated on the altar... (Lumen Gentium, 3)
One ephapax sacrifice made present in each celebration.
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
Huh. Is that how it leaks into English? Thanks, Hart, I've never seen it before.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Isn't the Orate Fratres omitted in a mass without a congregation or server (that is, just the priest)?
Perhaps the answer to the OPs question is simply that the Orate Fratres serves the purpose of reminding the gathered faithful of sacrifice, and in recent "my sacrifice and yours" times of the different roles that the priest and the rest play in the mass?
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CorgiGreta
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# 443
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Posted
As part of the preparation of the Gifts in my parish, the Celebrant says,
"Pray my brothers and sisters that this [emphasis added] our sacrifice, may be acceptable to God the Father almighty."
I suppose, though, that even the additional word 'this' does not completely remove ambiguity as to the nature of the sacrifice. Indeed, the parish itself may not be of one mind on this issue.
[ 21. August 2012, 04:04: Message edited by: CorgiGreta ]
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I can see that some churches - Anglo Catholic - say Orate Fratres. I accept that. BUT I still have to read a convincing argument as to why it should be included - what's the point of saying it.
Thurible has already pointed you in the direction of an answer. Perhaps you could now tell us why you think Fr Z's explanation doesn't satisfy you.
First of all Trisagion, Thurible's post seemed to me not to relate to this question but rather to Angloxixd's question about why 'yours and mine' and not 'ours'. That was the context of his response, and indeed seems to be principally Fr Zed's line.
Fr Z does not clearly give an argument why this form of prayer is required at every mass. Indeed he says it is a 12th century innovation.
Fr Zed more seems to give a commentary about it rather than an explanation of its necessity.
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Mary, a priest??
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
The OP of this thread was vague to begin with but we have been giving it the benefit of the doubt. However, it does not seem to be turning into a productive discussion but rather to be a mass of tangents, with some sniping thrown in.
For future reference, Percy B, an OP that amounts to more than "Please tell me all you know about <blank>" will produce a better discussion and be looked upon more favourably by my hostly friends and me.
Meanwhile, this thread is closed.
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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