|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: ASB Society?
|
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
|
Posted
The comparative success and it might be argued, the now more mainstream acceptance of the Prayer Book Society, begs the question as to whether there ought to be an Alternative Service Book 1980 Appreciation Society?
The ASB 1980 was a compendium of services to compliment the BCP, and brought some order after a period of 'experimental' worship, with little booklets in the CofE called series 2 and 3.
The ASB contained a psalter, all the main services, Ordinal, and most of what was required. It included the eucharistic readings for Sundays and holy days. There was an altar 'missal' edition also published called 'Altar Services'. It seemed that after a long period, the CofE had a prayer book again.
Do any shipmates have any thoughts on this? What were its strengths and weaknesses? - I would argue the psalter and paucity of the daily office for the latter.
It did seem refreshing to have four useable eucharistic prayers, and various translations used in the Sunday eucharistic lectionary - and printed in the book. There were leather presentation editions published.
--------------------
sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Antiphon
Shipmate
# 14779
|
Posted
An ASB society would certainly be very interesting!!
I would tend to agree that the daily offices of MP and EP provided in the ASB were one of its weaker components, and although I am not absolutely certain I suspect that they were not all that widely used.
My impression is that many clergy and laity preferred to use other modern forms of the daily office as an alternative to the BCP rather than the ASB provision. For example, the RC Divine Office or one of the other books containing excerpts from it such as the black Morning and Evening Prayer volume were often favoured, even perhaps by those who did not regard themselves as specifically Anglo-Catholic.
Other possibilities were the English translation of the Taize office as it existed at the time, entitled Praise In All Our Days, and the earlier edition of the Daily Office SSF which was based on the ASB offices to some extent, although it would have been rather hard to obtain as I think it was then only officially available to members of SSF.
I suspect that when Celebrating Common Prayer was published in the 1990s it made the ASB offices virtually obsolete, and paved the way for the later publication of Common Worship: Daily Prayer as the Church of England's official modern office book. I also suspect that some clergy and laity switched from the RC daily offices to CCP when it was published, as the latter perhaps had a more definite Anglican ethos than the Divine Office.
Posts: 235 | From: Nowhere in Particular | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laurence
Shipmate
# 9135
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I suspect that when Celebrating Common Prayer was published in the 1990s it made the ASB offices virtually obsolete, and paved the way for the later publication of Common Worship: Daily Prayer as the Church of England's official modern office book. I also suspect that some clergy and laity switched from the RC daily offices to CCP when it was published, as the latter perhaps had a more definite Anglican ethos than the Divine Office.
There are a few musical ASB fossils that are unlikely ever to be used now. The 1985 setting of the ASB Litany by Ridout is worth listening to; it's quite Tavener-esque, with some Eastern Orthodox chant-sounding moments.
[ 20. August 2012, 13:44: Message edited by: Laurence ]
Posts: 648 | From: Lincolnshire | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Ferijen
Shipmate
# 4719
|
Posted
There are whole new generations of people who don't know that you always start at page 119, and sometimes that is the first page of the book.
Posts: 3259 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Ah! The little red Rite A booklet......now replaced by the equally egregious Common Worship Order 1 red booklet!
The Church of my (comparative) Yoof used Rite A at 1030am (1st Sunday) and 630pm (3rd Sunday). For Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer at 1030am and 630pm on the 2nd and 4th Sundays, we used the ASB green booklets. Alas, we tended to say the Psalm (from the RSV pew bibles!) and used metrical versions of the Mag and Nunc.....most eccentric......
...given that this was then a conservative evangelical parish, you will not be surprised to hear that we had an 8am BCP Holy Communion every Sunday, 630pm BCP Evening Prayer on the 1st Sunday and * gasp * BCP Morning Prayer at 1030am and BCP Holy Communion at 630pm when there was a fifth Sunday - 3 BCP services in one day....!!
Ian J.
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Antiphon
Shipmate
# 14779
|
Posted
I believe that the third eucharistic prayer provided in the ASB Rite "A" Order of Holy Communion was largely the work of the celebrated Canon Brian Brindley of Holy Trinity, Reading. It tended to be the preferred option of those Anglo-Catholics who used the ASB for mass and was fairly similar to the Roman Catholic second eucharistic prayer.
I always felt that the two-year cycle of readings provided in the ASB eucharistic lectionary were rather lengthy and awkward in comparison with those in the three-year Roman Lectionary and indeed with those in the Revised Common Lectionary on which I believe those in Common Worship are based.
Notable omissions from the ASB were an order for Midday Prayer and an order for Compline, such as were found in other modern service books such as the ECUSA BCP of 1979. I do remember that Mowbrays used to publish an Order of Compline in the same style as the ASB offices, which I think was compiled by Archdeacon (later Bishop) David Silk, now an RC priest.
There was also a small (unofficial) red hardback book of supplementary material for use in conjunction with the ASB which I think was also compiled by Archdeacon Silk and published by Mowbrays. I remember that it included the text of the RC offertory prayers; the response "Blessed be God forever" was given in ASB Rite "A" but not the prayers themselves.
Posts: 235 | From: Nowhere in Particular | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Antiphon
Shipmate
# 14779
|
Posted
It was also interesting that a good deal of the material in the ASB was also available as separate service booklets, such as those for Holy Communion Rite "A", Rite "B", Morning Prayer, Evening Prayer, marriage, baptism, funeral rites, confirmation etc.
I wonder just how common it was for people to take an actual copy of the ASB to church with them, rather than simply relying on booklets containing the relevant services which would be handed to them as they entered. I do remember attending a Parish Eucharist at one church in South London back in 1988 when many of the congregation seemed to bring copies of the ASB with them, although I suppose that it varied from place to place. No doubt in some cases churches decided that it was a cheaper option to provide booklets containing the relevant portions of the ASB for their congregations rather than entire books which could be costly and might be damaged or stolen.
There were also the versions of Rite "A" published by the Church Union and the Additional Curates Society which had the Roman additions such as the orate, fratres. Moreover, some churches produced service books of their own which combined ASB material with additions from other sources.
Posts: 235 | From: Nowhere in Particular | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
|
Posted
I forgot the irritating habit of the ASB starting with the 9th Sunday before Christmas, rather than Advent Sunday, and the readings were rather lengthy.
But all in one book. Gosh, what a treat.
--------------------
sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
|
Posted
ASB never had the legal status of both 1662 & CW, of course, so it's kind of gone with the wind. But the OP has a point, if only for the sake of the Ordinal.
Historically, Anglicans track, indeed "prove" orders using the liturgies. The ASB Ordinal was in use for, what, 30 years? That's long enough to disrupt the 1662 succession. I hope someone's keeping a copy ...
--------------------
"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I believe that the third eucharistic prayer provided in the ASB Rite "A" Order of Holy Communion was largely the work of the celebrated Canon Brian Brindley of Holy Trinity, Reading. It tended to be the preferred option of those Anglo-Catholics who used the ASB for mass and was fairly similar to the Roman Catholic second eucharistic prayer.
Yes it was.
poor Fr. Brian - much maligned, may he rest in peace.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Antiphon
Shipmate
# 14779
|
Posted
I remember that the large ASB altar book had a red and gold cover and was quite a handsome volume. No doubt it was chiefly favoured by cathedrals and larger churches as it must have been fairly expensive; I remember it being used at a weekday eucharist in one of the side chapels in Westminster Abbey in 1988. If I remember correctly there was also a lectionary containing the eucharistic readings for Sundays and some festal days which was about the same size as the altar book and had a green cover.
What the ASB did not have was an associated volume containing the daily eucharistic readings printed out in full, as only the biblical references were given in the book. Some churches which had a daily eucharist therefore used the RC Daily Missal published by Collins for the lectern with the ASB on the altar. At the present time a separate book of full daily eucharistic lections is available for use with Common Worship, although I believe that these are slightly different from the daily readings found in the Roman Lectionary.
Posts: 235 | From: Nowhere in Particular | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Having 'everything' in one book has advantages and is part of the BCP tradition; but the rush to get everything together in time for the ASB's launch meant that much was not given proper thought. The daily office is the most obvious example, but another serious omission is any provision for Holy Week except (as in 1662) the readings and collects. This has been since remedied (CCP, Lent H Wk and Easter) and incorporated into the CW provision which is not constrained by all having to be in the same book. That is less of a problem in this computer age.
I can't really see why anyone (apart from enthusiasts for terylene and tupperware, orange wallpaper, mullets and flares) should want to preserve the ASB except as an awful memento of the Age that Style Forgot. Most of its positive features have been refined and preserved in CW, and fortunately the disasters such as the two-year thematic lectionary have been ditched. What has also survived, however, is the hectoring and didactic tone of some of the prayers, and the tendency - sadly proliferating - to pick-and-mix liturgy. Poor legacies.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
|
Posted
I found the ASB very useable. I spent time in a church that gave out full copies. We used HC starting on page 119 (Rite A), the readings and the Psalter. When we had baptisms you could refer people to the correct section because it was all in one book.
8am was sometimes the ASB old language (Rite B) and sometimes BCP. Evensong was always BCP.
In an earlier life, I remember ASB Evening Prayer, but with metrical versions of the canticles. We used little books there, but I stuck the metrical canticles into my ASB: Tell out my soul for Mag; sing to God new songs of worship for Cantate Domino; Faithful vigil ended for Nunc; Mercy, blessing, favour, grace for Deus Misereatur. I still remember that chapel and those peopl when I sing any of those (off by heart).
But I digress. The rhythms of prayer that I grew up with were the language of the ASB/Series 3. And what did we get from it? The Baptism service, with the congregational responses including the welcome (we are children of the same heavenly Father; we are inheritors together of the kingdom of God). The simple introduction to the offices (We have come together as the family of God in our Father's presence...). The alternative prayer after communion (Dying and living, he declared your love, gave us grace, and opened the gate of glory). The alternative confessions and prayer of humble access, although little used given their positions in the book.
We had a variety of Eucharistic Prayers, each with their own theological nuances, and none with trite "for the children" stuff. There was a common general confession through all services, not withstanding the availability of alternatives. The seasonal provision was richer than the BCP - prefaces, blessings, introduction to the peace - and allowed for subsequent addition without rewrite (as provided in The Promise of His Glory). There was a good lay-usable form of intercession plus an alternative; it was a good way of introducing people to praying in public. The Psalter was pointed, which was excellent when I encountered Anglican chant for the first time.
Incidentally, the most frequently used form of communion service used from A Prayer Book for Australia also begins on page 119, so I continue to hear those familiar opening words:
Minister: Our service begins on page 119.
People: And also with you!!
Whatever faults it may have had, it certainly helped form my faith.
Edited to correct one spelling mistake; if there's any more you'll have to live with them!
[ 21. August 2012, 12:53: Message edited by: Vulpior ]
--------------------
I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Most of its positive features have been refined and preserved in CW, and fortunately the disasters such as the two-year thematic lectionary have been ditched. What has also survived, however, is the hectoring and didactic tone of some of the prayers, and the tendency - sadly proliferating - to pick-and-mix liturgy. Poor legacies.
I'd have gone to the stake for the ASB over the BCP, but now it's gone, what a relief for the reasons angloid gives. Particularly the awful two year lectionary (Today's theme is caring and sharing...)
I don't mind pick and mix provided the bits I want are picked.
And now we give you thanks...
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Antiphon
Shipmate
# 14779
|
Posted
I also remember the two ASB supplements "Lent Holy Week Easter" and "The Promise of His Glory" which came out in the 1990s and contained some interesting material, most of which was probably incorporated into the Common Worship resources.
Posts: 235 | From: Nowhere in Particular | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
Lent, Holy Week and Easter still has that stodgy indefinable ASB flavour.
The Promise of his Glory, which allowed the RCL in parts for the first time officially, is the first dawn of CW.
Both more flexibility (which may well be a mixed blessing) and also a more poetic, resonant, Biblical language. There is a lovely light prayer for the Blessed Virgin Mary which hasn't made it into CW, which I still use at home on feast of Our Lady.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
There is a lovely light prayer for the Blessed Virgin Mary which hasn't made it into CW, which I still use at home on feast of Our Lady.
Page reference? 'Light' in the sense of non-stodgy, or connected with candles, or both?
Yes you're right about LHWE's stodginess. But a great improvement on what we had before (i.e. nothing). It's this desire to explain everything, to teach people, rather than let the liturgy speak for itself. I'm not sure if CW is much better in that respect, but there are so many options one of them must be to leave most of that out.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
Page 19 of "The Promise of His Glory" gives "The Service of Light" with blessings, incense prayer and Hail Gladdening Light. This is now incorporated into CW Daily Prayer.
On page 17 there is prayer J: "In her your glory shines as in the burning bush, and so we call her blessed with every generation."
That's not didactic. That's imaginative.
But you're right. Wordy didacticism is becoming more and more prevalent, but at least it isn't mandatory on so many occasions as in the ASB.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
There are two irritating features of LHWE which survived into Times and Seasons. I suspect they are both trying not to be Roman. They are:
A At the Easter Vigil,having the lighting and blessing of the Easter fire and candle after the vigil readings, which messes up the symbolism of light.
B On Good Friday, having the veneration of the cross before the solemn prayers. Before communion makes more sense to me as then the service follows the order of the eucharist with the veneration replacing the offertory and Eucharistic prayer.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
|
Posted
The Society of Mary and Martha, at Sheldon in Devon, still use the ASB Morning Prayer (shorter form) for its morning office. Slightly bizarre.
It shames me to say it, but the ASB baptism service sort of lives on round here. I use many elements of it for baptisms in preference over the CW version, which is unutterably ghastly.
But as has already been commented - what was good has generally been improved upon still further in CW and the dross has been largely lost.
(Forgot - I still prefer the ASB Marriage Service Preface to the CW one, mainly because I find it hard to say the line "delight and tenderness of sexual union" without sniggering uncontrollably)
--------------------
Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
There are two irritating features of LHWE which survived into Times and Seasons. I suspect they are both trying not to be Roman. They are:
A At the Easter Vigil,having the lighting and blessing of the Easter fire and candle after the vigil readings, which messes up the symbolism of light.
B On Good Friday, having the veneration of the cross before the solemn prayers. Before communion makes more sense to me as then the service follows the order of the eucharist with the veneration replacing the offertory and Eucharistic prayer.
Both of them are options. Not a few RCs experimented with the former order for the Vigil. It seems 'logical' but that doesn't make it right... we read scripture in the light of the Resurrection. It's one of those ASB style experiments which hasn't stood the test of time (like leaving off the chasuble until the offertory; though of course this was never an official suggestion.)
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Antiphon
Shipmate
# 14779
|
Posted
I also used to have a large hardback copiously illustrated guidebook to the ASB which I think was entitled "Anglican Worship Today." I remember that it had a section suggesting the different settings in which the ASB might be encountered ranging from informal evangelical worship a la Holy Trinity Brompton to an Anglo-Catholic High Mass a la All Saints Margaret Street.
I think I have seen a similar book as an adjunct to Common Worship.
Posts: 235 | From: Nowhere in Particular | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I also used to have a large hardback copiously illustrated guidebook to the ASB which I think was entitled "Anglican Worship Today." I remember that it had a section suggesting the different settings in which the ASB might be encountered ranging from informal evangelical worship a la Holy Trinity Brompton to an Anglo-Catholic High Mass a la All Saints Margaret Street.
I think I have seen a similar book as an adjunct to Common Worship.
Indeed. It is called "Common Worship Today" and was produced by GROW (as was the ASB version). Overall, a fairly helpful beginner's guide to Common Worship.
--------------------
Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
The Society of Mary and Martha, at Sheldon in Devon, still use the ASB Morning Prayer (shorter form) for its morning office. Slightly bizarre.
St Gabriel, Fulbrook used the ASB Offices in 2008. I'm guessing that may have changed since Fr Coyne's retirement.
Thurible
--------------------
"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
It shames me to say it, but the ASB baptism service sort of lives on round here. I use many elements of it for baptisms in preference over the CW version, which is unutterably ghastly.
Be not ashamed. CW Baptism is too wordy and the vows are a bit too much. ASB better.
Other way round. Baptism services in CW are a great improvement!
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
CW Baptism - I'd like to cheer anything from Michael Vasey, who was a big influence.
Having the Apostle's Creed rather than three brief questions is good. Having the intercessions after the baptism is good symbolically.
"Do you submit to Christ?" raises, er, interesting issues.
Slicing bits of the baptism into different slots in the eucharist is confusing.
Unfortunately, readings before bonfire at Easter has been what I've experienced in all but one church I've known over the last ten years.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
It shames me to say it, but the ASB baptism service sort of lives on round here. I use many elements of it for baptisms in preference over the CW version, which is unutterably ghastly.
Be not ashamed. CW Baptism is too wordy and the vows are a bit too much. ASB better.
Other way round. Baptism services in CW are a great improvement!
Only if you want to discourage baptisms.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
seasick
...over the edge
# 48
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
There are two irritating features of LHWE which survived into Times and Seasons. I suspect they are both trying not to be Roman. They are:
A At the Easter Vigil,having the lighting and blessing of the Easter fire and candle after the vigil readings, which messes up the symbolism of light.
B On Good Friday, having the veneration of the cross before the solemn prayers. Before communion makes more sense to me as then the service follows the order of the eucharist with the veneration replacing the offertory and Eucharistic prayer.
Both of them are options. Not a few RCs experimented with the former order for the Vigil. It seems 'logical' but that doesn't make it right... we read scripture in the light of the Resurrection. It's one of those ASB style experiments which hasn't stood the test of time (like leaving off the chasuble until the offertory; though of course this was never an official suggestion.)
I've been to vigils both ways round and can see arguments in favour of each. My preference remains I think an early morning vigil with vigil readings first then fire, exultet, gloria and all the rest. I think perhaps it works better the other way round for a Saturday night vigil. It's all a bit academic for me though as the chances of getting our lot out to an Easter vigil are somewhat slim...
--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
I've been to a 5 an vigil of readings with hand torches (and jolly good on the imagination and commitment to arrange it thus). Come 6 am we stood outside the church and lit and blessed the fire and then went inside and lit up candles of all the window ledges, as they used to do at night.
By 6 am we were in the cold light of dawn, so the light of the interior candles were invisible. It seemed a bit pointless lighting a fire outside when it was already daylight.
However I'm grateful of any Easter Vigil I can get to.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I would tend to agree that the daily offices of MP and EP provided in the ASB were one of its weaker components,
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It's weakness was its lectionary, arranged in highly contrived 'themes'.
I still use both in private prayer. What does that make me? (Other than odd, I already know that.)
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
By 6 am we were in the cold light of dawn, so the light of the interior candles were invisible. It seemed a bit pointless lighting a fire outside when it was already daylight.
Yes, but equally pointless those Vigils that begin at 7 or 8 in the evening. I suppose one argument for having the readings first is that there is more chance that it's dark at the appropriate time.
Most celebrations of the Vigil (at least in Anglican circles) are a compromise between doing what is liturgically and emotionally right, and doing it at a time when people are willing to turn out for it. Why they will flock to church for Christmas midnight mass and not Easter has always puzzled me.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Antiphon
Shipmate
# 14779
|
Posted
I remember that the ASB had an option for using the Rite "A" eucharist in the same order as the BCP, ie with the Prayer of Humble Access immediately after the sursum corda and the Gloria at the end of the service, if I remember correctly. I do not know if Common Worship has similar provision.
There was also a modern rendering of the Prayer of Humble Access as an alternative to the traditional one. I do not know if this made it into CW either.
Posts: 235 | From: Nowhere in Particular | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Why they will flock to church for Christmas midnight mass and not Easter has always puzzled me.
...Tradition!
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
By 6 am we were in the cold light of dawn, so the light of the interior candles were invisible. It seemed a bit pointless lighting a fire outside when it was already daylight.
Yes, but equally pointless those Vigils that begin at 7 or 8 in the evening. I suppose one argument for having the readings first is that there is more chance that it's dark at the appropriate time.
Most celebrations of the Vigil (at least in Anglican circles) are a compromise between doing what is liturgically and emotionally right, and doing it at a time when people are willing to turn out for it. Why they will flock to church for Christmas midnight mass and not Easter has always puzzled me.
I know of at least one church that celebrates the vigil in the morning of Holy Saturday, as was normal before the reforms of the 1950s.
I am of two minds about most of the Pian reforms, but I have to say that I do think the Vigil just works better as an evening service. The sacristan of the more traditional church alluded to above — a young man whom I must say is far more liturgically aware than am I — dismissed this as a sentimental attachment to the idea of light in darkness rather than as real liturgy, and perhaps he was right.
I think my current parish has changed little since the days of the ASB, and we still do the readings before the exultet. It's the worst bit of what is otherwise a very nice Vigil. It's interesting that the Vigil — along with Tenebrae, weekly benediction, and the Sung Masses on the more obscure Red Letter Days — is a service greatly favoured by young people, who seem much more traditional than their elders. This, indeed, seems to be a national, if not international, phenomenon: I'm told that, of all the churches in the UK, St Mary Mags in Oxford draws the greatest crowds for the Easter Vigil, with a great majority being under 30. If only senior Church leaders would recognize that young people are drawn to churches rooted in authentic liturgical tradition, rather than the self-conscious and would-be trendy stuff that is constantly peddled at them. If that simple fact were acknowledged, then I think the churches of this country would be much fuller than they are. Unfortunately, however, it offends the pieties of the opportunistic coalition of Evangelicals and Modernists who control the Church of England and most other Anglican churches today.
--------------------
'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I was referring to the lectio9nary for the eucharist.
By linking two posts together, I suspect you are referring to the office lectionary - ?
Yes. Sorry about any misunderstanding.
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
As long as it's dark outside the Vigil works OK and it depends whether or not Easter falls before or after the clocks go back. (Spring - forward. Fall - back.)
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
As long as it's dark outside the Vigil works OK and it depends whether or not Easter falls before or after the clocks go back. (Spring - forward. Fall - back.)
Just not please at 6 a.m. the morning clocks fall back. Happened one year when I was in the choir, so we had to show up at 5 a.m. (felt like 4 a.m.). I felt dead enough to be put into the empty tomb. Alleluia...zzz.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
Now here's a detail to illustrate the didacticism.
In ASB and CW, Aquinas' collect for Corpus Christi is added to as follows:
...that we may know within ourselves and show forth in our lives the fruits of your redemption...
The worship of God is not enough on its own: it has to end up with us doing good. (Well, I hope we do, but that is not the sole end of worship.)
Again instead of the catholic dismissal at the end
Go in the peace of Christ Thanks be to God
Round here we inevitably get the alternative (my italics):
Go in peace to love and serve the Lord In the name of Christ. Amen.
We've got to go out and do something. Contemplative worship? What's that?
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
I'm not sure whether it is didacticism or simply mealy-mouthedness, but the responses before and after the Gospel always got me. 'Glory to Christ our Saviour' 'Praise to Christ our Lord.' Why do we have to talk about our Lord as if he is not there? (Like asking the carer of a disabled person, 'does he take sugar'?) Fortunately CW has seen the light and we have 'Glory to you, O Lord' and 'Praise to you, O Christ'.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I remember that the ASB had an option for using the Rite "A" eucharist in the same order as the BCP, ie with the Prayer of Humble Access immediately after the sursum corda and the Gloria at the end of the service, if I remember correctly. I do not know if Common Worship has similar provision.
Yes. Order Two in Contemporary Language page 249 following
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
There was also a modern rendering of the Prayer of Humble Access as an alternative to the traditional one. I do not know if this made it into CW either.
Most merciful Lord, you love compels us to come in... page 181. It was in the appendix of the ASB and is now in the main text of CW. I’ve never heard it used and I’m sure some will find it helpful, but it’s not my chalice (as our Roman friends say now) of tea.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I'm not sure whether it is didacticism or simply mealy-mouthedness, but the responses before and after the Gospel always got me. 'Glory to Christ our Saviour' 'Praise to Christ our Lord.' Why do we have to talk about our Lord as if he is not there? (Like asking the carer of a disabled person, 'does he take sugar'?) Fortunately CW has seen the light and we have 'Glory to you, O Lord' and 'Praise to you, O Christ'.
Unfortunately, the Church in Wales order for the Eucharist (2004) followed the ASB lead. On the occasions when I visit my childhood church in Wales, I forget which way round "Saviour" and "Lord" go, and so I end up saying nothing at all.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
I remember the ASB quite well as it was what we used for the Eucharist in my home parish. On the whole it was not too bad provided you had a priest who "knew what he was doing" but if you got one of the wrong sort of trendy types it could be quite spectacularly ghastly. Too many optional bits, which Fr Denim-Flairs could include, leave out, or move around at will! I was much happier when someone did an end run around the clergy and got some little red booklets entitled "THE MASS" printed at the behest of some organisation based at (IIRC) 7 Tufton Street. This seriously curbed the amount Fr Denim-Flairs could piss around when he substituted in our congregation.
I had a particular affection for the short versions of Morning and Evening Prayer when I was in secular employment. I could manage them on the bus ride too and from work, though the ASB was a bit heavy to cart around in your lunch bag. Before that we had used them at college as we had a 10-15 minute slot at the beginning and end of everyday for chapel prayers and they seemed to fit the bill quite nice, quite often.
ASB baptism office was good. Marriage service, probably not that bad, but like the CW one it had some unfortunate moments. I think the majority of funerals I atnded were Rquiem Masses so I have no real idea what the ASB Burial provision was like in use.
Do I miss the ASB enough to join a preservation society - probably not. However, it is one of those things from my Yoof that I remember fondly if not affectionately.
OTOH, I think it was the appearence of supplemental material to go with the ASB and the plethora f paper that generated that converted me to the BCP.
PD
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
|
Posted
The introduction to the marriage service was probably marginly better than the 'sexual union' or whatever the cringey phrase is in CW (and in the weddings I have attended recently, missed out by the officiant). Probably in further revisions, and in line with the church's prurient fascination with such things, they will expand this and give full details of each sexual act.
--------------------
sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Which may well become even more interesting when same-sex marriages are solemnised in Church.
Ian J.
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
Our faithful partnership has been blessed in church many times when we have received communion together.
No way would we want a "wedding" and all that goes with it.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Which, given all the sentimental slush that seems to mark a 'wedding' (a different thing altogether from a 'marriage', IYSWIM), does you credit. IMNSHO.
Ian J.
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
|
Posted
Indeed!
--------------------
sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
