|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: ASB Society?
|
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Which, given all the sentimental slush that seems to mark a 'wedding' (a different thing altogether from a 'marriage', IYSWIM), does you credit. IMNSHO.
Ian J.
As someone in favour of same sex marriages and marriage ceremonies for those who would wish it, I dread the thought of the CofE liturgical commission getting their hands on it. I can just imagine the vomitaciously embarrassing stuff that will come out.
When it does eventually appear in the CofE (and it will given time), I do hope that the commission will consult widely - not least amongst gay people, poets, and intelligent writers of modern English.
--------------------
sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
|
Posted
On the difference between wedding and marriage may I repeat a story I have told before? I was marking an RS GCSE paper and one student had written: "Traditional Christian teaching is that sex is only allowed in a wedding". I used to wonder what the congregation got up to during the signing of the registers....
--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
That's nice of you, sebby, but this gay man and his partner see no need for gay marriage, since a civil partnership gives us all legal protection and benefits of marriage. Gay marriage already exists for those who want to make the commitment: it's called civil partnership.
I fear the pressure for gay marriage is precisely because many want all the trappings of a "proper" wedding, which is only going along with the sentimentality Bishop's Finger mentions.
If the C of E accepts gay marriage, then obviously it will be the same ceremony for same sex and opposite sex couples. That's what gay marriage means.
The C of E should certainly accept and bless civil partnerships.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
seasick
...over the edge
# 48
|
Posted
Can we end the gay marriage tangent please? The place for that conversation is in Dead Horses.
Much obliged.
seasick, Eccles host
--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Can we end the gay marriage tangent please? The place for that conversation is in Dead Horses.
Much obliged.
seasick, Eccles host
Certainly. We were however exchanging views, as far as I could see, with mutual courtesy and respect.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
seasick
...over the edge
# 48
|
Posted
Indeed you were, for which my thanks, but a Dead Horse is still a Dead Horse and a tangent is still a tangent.
seasick, Eccles host
--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
I am of two minds about most of the Pian reforms
Hands up all those who knew what 'Pian reforms' were.
Me
--------------------
sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
Presumably the reforms under one of the Popes called Pius. St Pius X or Pius XII, I'm not sure, but if I want to show my liturgical knowledge, I'd should know. Boasting of ignorance is not very impressive in my books.
(Pius X altered the psalms in the breviary - removed what CW calls the Laudate psalms and Pius XII moved the Easter Vigil to the evening. Am I right?)
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
ST
Shipmate
# 14600
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
(Pius X altered the psalms in the breviary - removed what CW calls the Laudate psalms and Pius XII moved the Easter Vigil to the evening. Am I right?)
I'd guess you're right with Pius XII and the Holy Week reforms including the Vigil
--------------------
Formerly nowsouthwest - but moved!
Posts: 114 | From: No longer in the South-west of the UK! | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ST:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
(Pius X altered the psalms in the breviary - removed what CW calls the Laudate psalms and Pius XII moved the Easter Vigil to the evening. Am I right?)
I'd guess you're right with Pius XII and the Holy Week reforms including the Vigil
Correct. I'm not sure what point leo was trying to make. 'Pian reforms' in this context is a term that would, I believe, be understood by most Catholics with even a slight interest in liturgy, as well as by all Catholics over the age of about seventy.
--------------------
'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
|
Posted
On the ASB
Many weaknesses, yes.
but the advantage of one book - and with the Mass readings in them.
I liked the version there of the seen on earth Eucharistic prayer.
And a ready to hand psalter and daily office.
Seems to me it was following a BCP principal at least as a beginning. Common Worship abandoned that in favour of lots of books.
I know the CW daily office is rich, but goodness me how many of the laity have a copy and use it?
--------------------
Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
At our place we use the Franciscan Daily Office in church every day - and I know that some of our folk also use SSF privately at home. Dunno about CW, but ISTM that the SSF book is a bit more user-friendly. YMMV.
I liked the ASB generally, apart from the 2-year theme thingy......
......we still have a copy on the shelf in our sacristy (next to a 1928 BCP).
Ian J.
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I know the CW daily office is rich, but goodness me how many of the laity have a copy and use it?
I can't speak for anyone else but I use the CofE website for the daily office, it saves me having a paper copy, though I have to admit I will switch between the CW and BCP forms, as there are elements of both I find helpful. In particular I prefer having the confession and the creed, as in the BCP form, on the other hand I prefer to have the readings from the NRSV rather than the KJV.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
I was one of those who found the AB shortened forms of MP and EP useful. They were a nice break from the BCP but close enough that yu still had the same Office structure. I like the CW Office too, but the options and alternatives are a bit much for Oh-weird-thirty in a morning when I am trying to read MP when there is too much daylight and not enough caffeine in my life.
The alternatve forms thing has always been a bit of a problem for me, as it tends to take me longer to decide what to read than to read it in those circumstances. At least with the ASB Eucharist I settled into a routine. EP 2 or 3 on weekdays and EP1 or 4 on Sundays and Holydays. I think EP3 was the most used over all given that it was shortish and therefore useful for a lunchtime Mass.
In short, I think CW is an improvement, but I miss the one book nature of the basic ASB. That said, in many ways I prefer the BCP/Series 2 set up which was the first version of Anglicanism I encountered.
PD
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
The alternatve forms thing has always been a bit of a problem for me, as it tends to take me longer to decide what to read than to read it in those circumstances.
Some years ago I was using Jim Cotter's Prayer in the Morning. In ordinary time he gave two alternative opening prayers, and I simply alternated. I agree that an office for personal use should not require decision making; simply praying.
--------------------
I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Now here's a detail to illustrate the didacticism.
In ASB and CW, Aquinas' collect for Corpus Christi is added to as follows:
...that we may know within ourselves and show forth in our lives the fruits of your redemption...
The worship of God is not enough on its own: it has to end up with us doing good. (Well, I hope we do, but that is not the sole end of worship.)
Again instead of the catholic dismissal at the end
Go in the peace of Christ Thanks be to God
Round here we inevitably get the alternative (my italics):
Go in peace to love and serve the Lord In the name of Christ. Amen.
We've got to go out and do something. Contemplative worship? What's that?
I had not realized it, but that has always been an irritant for me too. I find myself scouting around in the alternative material for something a bit less hectoring, or have a brain-fart and use the familiar version. If I had been a regular ASB user I would have been guilty of getting my little red booklets from Faith House, Tufton Street, though I would have taken liberties with those too. I happen to like both the Collect for Purity and Humble Grumble, even though I used to be quite attached to the RC weekday Eucharistic Lectionary.
A far more serious attachment on my part was to Series 2 - both the Eucharist and the Daily Office. I know one or two of you like to remind us of how radical they were in their day, but they felt right even though they were very different to the old BCP. Also keeping Low Mass to 20 mins on a freezing Wednesday in January and the PCC is too tight to let you put the heat on has its merits...
PD
[ 27. August 2012, 04:02: Message edited by: PD ]
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
|
Posted
I just remember series 2 - it was certainly to the point. And brief.
I always wished that there was more of a start to the ASB eucharist, a little more 'In the name of the Father..'
Rite A was a huge improvement on the rather bald Series 3 eucharist, in some ways to quote a high church friend, 'a little more Mass and a little less eucharist', or to put it how he probably meant it 'a little more 'Blessed be God forever' and a little less 'Yours Lord is the greatness' '
--------------------
sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
|
Posted
Am I right in thinking that it wasn't until after the ASB that the Church of England went for the epiclesis after the Dominical words in some of the Eucharistic prayers - as in CW.
I did used to think that handing out ASBs to congregations assumed a familiarity with big thick books which many did not have. It was a nuisance that the people edition did not have book ribbons.
I was also not sure of the font used in the liturgies and the curiously blue rubrics.
That said it was a great step forward. Some of the prayers were great, and sadly not easy to find in CW - if in fact they are there at all. For example the prayer of St Richard or the prayer of St Chrysostom.
I found the use of different versions of the Bible to suit the reading a good idea, and helpful it was in one book.
--------------------
Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
|
Posted
It weas good in that respect - but i know of at least one priest who put the epiclesis BEFORE the dominical words ansd not in the slighty irritating ASB position.
He used to say 'there is always a danger when Anglicans get IDEAS about liturgy - especially when full of Eastern promise'.
--------------------
sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Antiphon
Shipmate
# 14779
|
Posted
I seem to remember that the ASB had a collect and readings for the installation of the superior of a religious community. Does CW have similar provision?
Posts: 235 | From: Nowhere in Particular | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oxonian Ecclesiastic
Shipmate
# 12722
|
Posted
All of the eucharistic prayers in the ASB had the epiclesis in the western position.
Posts: 174 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
|
Posted
Were they? Good. Shame about bits of CW then. And that ghastly habit in CW of having people BUTTING IN during the eucharistic prayer 'This is my story' or something.
--------------------
sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
That's nice of you, sebby, but this gay man and his partner see no need for gay marriage, since a civil partnership gives us all legal protection and benefits of marriage. Gay marriage already exists for those who want to make the commitment: it's called civil partnership.
I fear the pressure for gay marriage is precisely because many want all the trappings of a "proper" wedding, which is only going along with the sentimentality Bishop's Finger mentions.
If the C of E accepts gay marriage, then obviously it will be the same ceremony for same sex and opposite sex couples. That's what gay marriage means.
The C of E should certainly accept and bless civil partnerships.
As far as I can see the point of gay marriage as opposed to civil partnership is to make David Cameron look nice and liberal. If churches can choose whether to perform gay marriage ceremonies and all but a few fringe denominations seem to be against it then what are the benefits? All I could find was that it would allow a partner to take a courtesy title. Although if the husband of a lord is titled lord also that could cause real confusion. Anyway hardly worth all the steam generated.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
seasick told me this was a Dead Horse. I agree with you completely, but I expect we would differ in that I fully believe a stable, faithful same sex relationship is as equally acceptable as marriage.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
|
Posted
A dead horse? Hardly, but I suppose not really an Ecclesiantics subject.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
|
Posted
Hosting
Aumbry, you've been here long enough to know how the Ship defines Dead Horses. On top of that, you're resurrecting a six-weeks-old tangent, and against a host's ruling to boot. Take it elsewhere.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
--------------------
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
scuffleball
Shipmate
# 16480
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ferijen:
There are whole new generations of people who don't know that you always start at page 119, and sometimes that is the first page of the book.
Ah but the ASB was all done by section numbers rather than page numbers any way, wasn't it? I'm just about old enough to remember that in my childrens' edition* of the order of service the section numbers matched up but the page numbers might not have.
Any way in CW there are two sets of page numbers - one for the congregation book and one for the complete book, printed alongside one another, albeit with the number for the particular book printed on the outside. Because the altar book tends to be the complete book, on more than one occasion I have heard the "wrong" number be read. With CW, though, as churches tend to commit themselves to sticking to particular "options," as previously discussed, the tendency seems to be to dispense with congregational books altogether and just print everything on a service bulletin. Interestingly I have heard this framed not in terms of encouraging the minister to stick to the congregation's preferred set of words but rather to avoid old people and newcomers being confused about flicking to such and such a page, especially with Eucharistic prayers.
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
The Society of Mary and Martha, at Sheldon in Devon, still use the ASB Morning Prayer (shorter form) for its morning office. Slightly bizarre.
St Giles Oxford still used "Celebrating Common Prayer" for weekday evening prayer around about last Easter. I have reason to suspect that they might be trying to revert to BCP, but haven't checked in recently.
Am I right in understanding that using the ASB, at least for sacramental services, is technically forbidden?
*as in same words but with explanations and drawings to appeal to children, not to be confused with what the CiW did and made new versions of the actual words of the service for family services. And they were very 80s drawings at that. Lots of children of all different racial backgrounds, zebra crossings, high streets with opticians and greengrocers and bakers, and of course a school and a church. The Playdays-type sort of thing that seems to have been dropped of late in childrens' literature and television favour of technicolor cartoon dragons. Has no-one made a childrens' edition of the CW order of service?
--------------------
SPK: I also plan to create ... a Calvinist Ordinariate
ken: I thought it was called Taize?
Posts: 272 | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
|
Posted
scuffleball: quote:
St Giles Oxford still used "Celebrating Common Prayer" for weekday evening prayer around about last Easter.
That sounds like a very good choice to me. The daily offices in CCP are excellent by any standard (and were one of the weakest things about the ASB).
--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
