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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The shape of the chasuble
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
The back in fiddleback refers to the fiddle not to the chasuble - it's a chasuble shaped like the back of a fiddle.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Thank you, seasick. That makes sense. Except, isn't the front of a violin the same shape as the back?
When we had our house blessing, with mass on the dining room table and the Byrd Four Voice Mass from the kitchen, the celebrant wore a baroque chasuble, as the only one we could borrow for the occasion.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Indeed it is... but without the holes! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Infection perhaps, but I think cleanliness was linked to holiness. Being washed clean of sin as a metaphor, for example.
I think you'll find that the concept of cleanliness being close to godliness is a late Victorian one in the UK*, and applied principally to the middle and upper classes. Until quite recently - the last 150 years or less - lice were referred to as "the pearls of God".
Hmm. Don't know about that - what about 'Thou shalt purge me with hyssop Lord, and I shall be clean'? (Hyssop being a natural form of soap).
I think the line from Blackadder might also be apposite - you can tell he's a king because 'He isn't covered in shit'.
Hyssop soap? Not sure about that. It might be used as a scent in soap, but hyssop itself is a shrub with a lot of stubby leaves and small flowers - a bit like rosemary. If a sprig of it were dipped in water sufficient would cling to the foliage that it could be then be sprinkled, as in Ps 51 [50], for purposes of ritual purification. There is a hyssop bush in my front garden, though I haven't as yet raided it for an impromptu Asperges ...
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
That's an interesting interpretation. I had always read it as a purging of the digestive tract, rather like an ancient pico-prep. I did not know it had other qualities. I know that rosemary is good for cleaning hair, and we make sure that the rinsing water for Dog has rosemary in it.
As for the king - perhaps kings are above dirt. And I had forgotten the tradition of baths in ancient Greece and Rome, and probably other cultures as well. I was more limited to recent Europe.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Below the Lansker
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# 17297
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Is there much evidence that churches that have classical architecture are doing better than those with gothic? In a year when half of all the Methodist churches in Pembrokeshire have been closed the indication would seem to be the opposite.
At the risk of being tangential, and speaking as someone who lives in Pembrokeshire, I'd like to point out that the Methodists are far from being the only denomination dealing with falling congregations, and overstretched resources. This August also saw the closure of one of Haverfordwest's three medieval parish churches, and the CinW report on how to face the future indicates that there will be soon be a lot of Norman and Gothic architecture joining the 19th century neo-classical tabernacles on the market. To the best of my knowledge, none of the main denominations in Wales has succesfully developed a strategy for rural ministry (for rural communities as they are now, rather than as they were 70 or more years ago). The Methodists have hit the news with this one simply because they are the first to bite the bullet - sadly, others will follow.
Posts: 144 | Registered: Aug 2012
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
At the risk of pointing out the bleeding obvious, not all Methodist chapels are Neo-classical (the one nearest me is in fact built in red brick Gothic Revival) and not all Anglican churches are Gothic (none of Wren's churches are, to state only the most obvious examples in England).
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
not all Anglican churches are Gothic (none of Wren's churches are, to state only the most obvious examples in England).
At least one is. Well, maybe not pukka Gothic and not quite Gothick either, but certainly not classical.
Sorry to prolong the tangent (though as chasuble means little house it's perhaps not too much of a stretch to a big house)... but gothic buildings are less adaptable to other uses than are classical, although there are some interesting examples of people trying the former.
[ 29. August 2012, 15:04: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
That's an interesting interpretation. I had always read it as a purging of the digestive tract, rather like an ancient pico-prep. I did not know it had other qualities. I know that rosemary is good for cleaning hair, and we make sure that the rinsing water for Dog has rosemary in it.
As for the king - perhaps kings are above dirt. And I had forgotten the tradition of baths in ancient Greece and Rome, and probably other cultures as well. I was more limited to recent Europe.
Bath houses were pretty common down to Shakespeare's time. Some had a side line as knocking shops, which probabl contributed to their popularity, but also made sure they were not quite respectable. However, up until the 16th century most folks bathed.
OTOH, the medical profession at the time (c.1550) seriously believed that excessive bathing was bad for you, and discouraged it. They had kind of got themselves screwed up, but in those days the line of reasoning - that "folks who hung around in bath houses caught diseases therefore bathing is unhealthful" seemed well, erm, reasonable. They got the link between indoor gatherings of people and the spread of disease, but did not know about the organisms that spread the disease.
In short, the renaissance was dirtier than the middle ages for the reason stated.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
At the risk of pointing out the bleeding obvious, not all Methodist chapels are Neo-classical (the one nearest me is in fact built in red brick Gothic Revival) and not all Anglican churches are Gothic (none of Wren's churches are, to state only the most obvious examples in England).
Most non-conformist chapels in Wales are architecturally inconsistent as far as style is concerned. The only thing that matters is the arrangement of the inner space - a centrally placed pulpit which can be seen (and more importantly, from which the preacher can be heard) from every seat in the building. The floor plan in most of them is therefore square or rectangular. 'Style' is of secondary importance, although statistically speaking, neo-Gothic is the least popular, because of its associations with the CofE. To bring this back onto Ecclesiantics territory, worship practice dictated the shape of the buildings, and theology put the issue of style and decoration a long way down the list of priorities.
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
(There is a ceremonial liturgical apron by the way - it is called a gremiel and is used by bishops, I believe when handling oils... I suppose the inference is that clergy can be trusted not to pour wine on themselves but that oil might be more difficult to deal with).
The pre-Vat2 ceremonial for bishops seems to assume that the bishop is either feeble or possibly exhausted from his travel of the day. Therefore, he has a hand-candle bearer (extra light), a crozier (fancy walking-stick) 2 extra deacons (possibly to hold him up or push him in the right direction) ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) , an assistant priest (to make sure he does all the bits he's supposed to), and the above-mentioned gremial (so that he doesn't spill things (or possibly drool) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) on the chasuble while seated.
And while some of this is clearly out-of-date, I've seen any number of bishops who needed all the help they could get. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Topic exhausted? Yes, I think so.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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