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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: 'Songs of Praise' (ed. Dearmer)
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Lily Hegel
Apprentice
# 10097
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Posted
At the risk of repeating many other posts, we used Songs of Praise at grammar school in the 1950s. In primary school in the 1940s we used a service book which followed BBC broadcast services for schools. What was that?
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Wasn't there a BBC Hymn Book at one time with a blue cover?
We had A&M Revised at my prep school and English Hymnnal Service Book at my big school, but we only ever used the MOTR hymns and not the bits of the BCP which were helpfully included.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
One interesting comparison is Pierpoint’s “For the beauty of the earth” originally a Eucharistic offertory hymn and in English Hymnal appears in the Holy Communion section and has the refrain:
Christ our God to thee we raise
This our sacrifice of praise.
The reference to sacrifice was a bit strong for A&M revised so it became in the General section:
Lord of all to thee we raise
This our joyful hymn of praise.
Songs of Praise puts the hymn in the General section rather than Communion and omits the high Christology, but retains sacrifice. I detect sentimental liberalism in the use of “Father”. And the praise can be a school assembly rather than the eucharist.
Father unto thee we raise
This our sacrifice of praise.
I’ve just notice I can’t remember Christ our God, and that’s because New English Hymnal, while retaining it in the HC section, does a compromise:
Lord of all to thee we raise
This our sacrifice of praise.
Dr Bradley also comments on what hymn book editors have done with this. To summarise: the original A&M docked the last three verses and altered the refrain. The later A&M restored v6 (with 'bride' changed to 'church') but dropped v3. EH prints the hymn in full, but NEH drops vv 7-8 and has the A&M alteration in v6. Interestingly the CoS Church Hymnary, while dispensing with vv. 6-8, has no problem with the original refrain, 'sacrificial language' not withstanding.
For the Martyrs' crown of light,
for thy Prophets' eagle eye,
for thy bold Confessor's might,
for the lips of infancy
For thy Virgins' robes of snow,
for thy Maiden-Mother mild,
For thyself with hearts aglow
Jesu, Victim undefiled
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
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Ruth Gledhill
Media strumpet
# 10885
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Posted
I love it when Percy Dearmer makes an appearance. He was my godmother Gillian Warr's father. (Gillian married the son of my grandfather's sister.) She often used to regale me with stories of growing up i the cloisters at Westminster Abbey and how her father was an early supporter of women's ordination when it was decidedly unfashionable to be so. Gillian herself ended up living in the Chichester diocese. There was a 'family' pew in her local church where we used to sit when we visited. But she continued, against all the odds, to support women's ordination and made it onto deanery synod. She is on my mind at the moment because of spending yesterday writing about Chichester diocese. (For subscribers, report available via this free-to-view page. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/profile/Ruth-Gledhill)
[fixed broken link]
[ 31. August 2012, 12:06: Message edited by: seasick ]
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
and my vicar was a student of Percy Dearmer in about 1922-24. Due to PD's influence he always wore a warham Guild surplice and hood, was wedded to the gothic and the Parson's handbook way of doing things, although I don't think he had actually ever read it. He was most cetainly a great fan - although we had Hymns Ancient and Modern and I don't think the vicar had any views on womens' ordination at all.
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sebhyatt
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I remember using 'Songs of Praise' in my grammar school (1970s) - 'To mercy, pity, peace and love', etc. - and also the BBC school broadcasts in the 1960s ('When a knight won his spurs in the stories of old'......) Imagine my amazement, when arriving to start a job at a rather old-fashioned primary school in 2001 to find they were still listening to those old BBC broadcasts, and still singing the same songs. Some things are timeless, and recently there was a wonderfully nostalgic 'Songs of Praise' programme all about those schools broadcasts. Of course, one of the songs they sang was 'When a knight won his spurs'. They had to, really.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Imagine my amazement, when arriving to start a job at a rather old-fashioned primary school in 2001 to find they were still listening to those old BBC broadcasts, and still singing the same songs.
Do you mean they were listening to recordings of those broadcasts, or the BBC was still producing old-style school services?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
It's still available, but has been updated somewhat.
If you want to see the difference, the Teacher's Notes are available to download, but there don't appear to be any podcasts at the moment. Elements of the old programmes are still quite recognisable.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Thinking of some of the more, er, individual numbers in Songs of Praise, I'm wondering whatever is the matter with "Shine Jesus Shine".
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
...('When a knight won his spurs in the stories of old'......) Imagine my amazement, when arriving to start a job at a rather old-fashioned primary school in 2001 to find they were still listening to those old BBC broadcasts, and still singing the same songs. Some things are timeless, and recently there was a wonderfully nostalgic 'Songs of Praise' programme all about those schools broadcasts. Of course, one of the songs they sang was 'When a knight won his spurs'. They had to, really.
You mean there are people whose stomachs can actually take that much tweeness?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Thinking of some of the more, er, individual numbers in Songs of Praise, I'm wondering whatever is the matter with "Shine Jesus Shine".
Some might agree with you.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
We had Hymns Ancient and Modern (standard edition) at my prep school (5-13) supplemented by 100 Hymns for Today which, apart from about two hymns, I absolutely hated. There was a Hymn that was hilarious called 'God of Concrete, God of Steel, God of Piston, God of Nylon' or something.
...
My absolutely favourite was a hymn that appeared only in Holy Week and therefore only once in the whole of my time there _ Who is This with Garments Gory..' A wonderful stately processional tune. The procession on Palm Sunday all those years ago with the chaplains carrying enormous branches and wearing red copes, entering to that.
What was the tune used with 'Who is This'?
I recall it being sung at Christ Church, New Haven, CT (USA) on Palm Sunday to 'Ton-y-Botel,' the organist doing splendid trampling on the pedals. I've tried to introduce it in other places, but w/o any luck.
Almost as bad as 'God of Concrete, etc' is 'Earth and all Stars' a Herbert Brokering text in TEC Hymnal 1982, containing such charming lines as 'Engines and steel, loud pounding hammers' and 'Flowers and trees, loud rustling dry leaves.'
I leave to your imagination the X-rated additions that choristers have made in the pst 30 years!
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
What was the tune used with 'Who is This'?
I recall it being sung at Christ Church, New Haven, CT (USA) on Palm Sunday to 'Ton-y-Botel,' the organist doing splendid trampling on the pedals. I've tried to introduce it in other places, but w/o any luck.
quote:
Originally posted by Edgeman:
We sang 'Who is This' to Ebenezer.
The Oremus Hymnal suggests that Ton-y-Botel and Ebenezer are the same tune. Cross-referencing the listings for both tune names, it appears they are used for quite a few hymns. There are at least two hymns in "Wonder, Love and Praise" (not in Oremus' data base) that use that tune as well.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
A hymn-writer I know has written alternative words to 'who is this with garments gory'. They fit the same wonderful tune,and are also on the same Good Friday theme, but without the obscure biblical allusions which make the former so difficult. I can send details in reply to a PM.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
The Oremus Hymnal suggests that Ton-y-Botel and Ebenezer are the same tune. Cross-referencing the listings for both tune names, it appears they are used for quite a few hymns. There are at least two hymns in "Wonder, Love and Praise" (not in Oremus' data base) that use that tune as well.
They are the same tune. It was originally a Welsh drinking song - 'Ton y Botel' means 'Bottle Song'. The early non-conformists used it as a hymn tune and 'sanctified' it with a scriptural name - Ebeneser (in Welsh) or Ebenezer (English). The metre means it can be used for many different hymns. Where I live, the two most well known hymns it is used for are "Oh the deep, deep love of Jesus' and 'Come, thou fount of every blessing'.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I went to choir practice last night and spotted an old 'Songs of Praise' in the vestry (no name on the cover, spine missing, but immediately recognised by the picture). Cue nostalgia overflow.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The new Songs of Praise has rewritten the words of 'O valiant hearts' - makes it possible too sing it on Remembrance Day.
Would Mrs Thatcher like the new version?
What's this new Songs of Praise, then?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
If we're sharing school memories, Ebenezer is a good tune, but it's spoilt for ever for me because at school it was the tune for a hymn which in a long life of exposure to bad hymns, I still think is the worst one I've ever met.
As far as I know, and I hope I'm right, it has died out, but it really is repulsive. The first line goes "Once to every man and nation" which is a link to it, if anyone wants to luxuriate in its awfulness. It's depressing to think that it might well be the reference to 'man' to mean 'humanity' in the first line that might have caused its demise rather than its content. Two very serious theological errors (at least), and what I still think is nastiest imagery I've encountered in a hymn.
"By the light of burning martyrs,
Christ, thy bleeding feet we track"
Incandescent martyrs, like an avenue of life size flaming candles. Yuck.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The new Songs of Praise has rewritten the words of 'O valiant hearts' - makes it possible to sing it on Remembrance Day.
Leo, I can see what you might be getting at, but the rest of us have assumed this is a hymn for Remembrance Day as it was written.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Given its date, I suspect "Once to every man and nation" was an abolitionist hymn from the USA. In which case, lurid though its expression may be, its intentions would have been highly honourable.
Dearmer included in the National section of English Hymnal with a Welsh tune. I've never sung it.
And in the days when hymns and preaching never mention much about the cost of discipleship, it is a bit of a relief to have any reminder that Christian life can be expected to be a struggle. ("Theology of conflict in the hymns of F Pratt Green" must be one of those contenders for the Shortest Book Ever Published.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The new Songs of Praise has rewritten the words of 'O valiant hearts' - makes it possible too sing it on Remembrance Day.
Would Mrs Thatcher like the new version?
What's this new Songs of Praise, then?
No she would not.
The problem with the old version speaks of the knightly virtue of those who fell in war and suggesting a direct connection between the crucifixion of Jesus and our own ‘lesser Calvaries’.
V.2 equates the will of the politicians who declared war with the will of God. Indeed, the Church was co-opted into preaching the duty to fight.
Verse 4 identifies the war dead with Christ who ‘passed the self-same way’. Yet Christ did not ‘fight back’. He simply accepted his fate. Arkwright’s hymn and the tenor of the wartime sermons grossly distort and misrepresent the reality of war by talking in terms of Christlike self-sacrifice.
There is a new BBC cutdown version of Songs of Praise, published about ten years ago.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The new Songs of Praise has rewritten the words of 'O valiant hearts' - makes it possible to sing it on Remembrance Day.
Leo, I can see what you might be getting at, but the rest of us have assumed this is a hymn for Remembrance Day as it was written.
I think it was written as a recruitment device at the start of WW1.
It is one of the British Legion's favourites for Remembrance Day and for Battle of Britain Sunday.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Sarum Sleuth
Shipmate
# 162
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Posted
Strangely enough, I found and old Songs of Praise in the Bridge Chapel at Derby, along with some proper English Hymnals and an English Gradual. A very odd combination in a place that at one time had English Missal pretensions!
SS
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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Finishing up some musings on Ebenezer/Ton-y-Botel: quote:
Originally posted by Below the Lansker:
They are the same tune. It was originally a Welsh drinking song - 'Ton y Botel' means 'Bottle Song'. The early non-conformists used it as a hymn tune and 'sanctified' it with a scriptural name - Ebeneser (in Welsh) or Ebenezer (English).
That is fascinating -- thank you! (Interesting that the 1982 Hymnal retains the Welsh name but not the English.) quote:
Where I live, the two most well known hymns it is used for are "Oh the deep, deep love of Jesus' and 'Come, thou fount of every blessing'.
Hmm. To pair "Come Thou Fount," which is such a poetic, graceful hymn, with a majestic, almost militant belter like Ebenezer seems odd to me.
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Given its date, I suspect "Once to every man and nation" was an abolitionist hymn from the USA. In which case, lurid though its expression may be, its intentions would have been highly honourable.
Your suspicions are well-founded, according to the Source of all Knowledge™. It appears the hymn's author was an American poet of some renown among his contemporaries and whose first wife was an ardent Abolitionist. His own views on this and other attitudes seem to have wavered over time. quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
As far as I know, and I hope I'm right, it has died out....
"Once to every man and nation" was in TEC's 1940 hymnal but was dropped from the 1982. The hymn tune, as mentioned above, is still in the H1982 with two other hymns. (Oremus used to have a handy cross-referencing table of hymns with hymnals from all over the Anglican Communion, but, sadly, they seem to have pulled it.)
[ 01. September 2012, 19:20: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Hmm. To pair "Come Thou Fount," which is such a poetic, graceful hymn, with a majestic, almost militant belter like Ebenezer seems odd to me.
Oh, I don't know ... lines like
'Streams of mercy, never ceasing,
Call for songs of loudest praise.
Teach me some melodious measure
Sung by flaming tongues above,
O the vast, the boundless treasure
Of my Lord's unchanging love!
go quite well with the tune.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Funny that abolitionism could inspire bad hymns. When very young indeed I was present when Michael Ramsey gave a question and answer session at one of our ancient universities. One enthusiastic lady asked him about the wonderful promises, or something, in The Battle Hymn of the Republic.
The Blessed Michael, not a putter down by nature, gently but promptly replied that he'd never understood what The Battle Hymn of the Republic meant. What it means I now see, is to struggle to abolish slavery. But for the British, the words don't mean that.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Below the Lansker:
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Hmm. To pair "Come Thou Fount," which is such a poetic, graceful hymn, with a majestic, almost militant belter like Ebenezer seems odd to me.
Oh, I don't know ... lines like
'Streams of mercy, never ceasing,
Call for songs of loudest praise.
Teach me some melodious measure
Sung by flaming tongues above,
O the vast, the boundless treasure
Of my Lord's unchanging love!
go quite well with the tune.
Goodness, I didn't know there was a bowdlerized version! Robinson's actual first verse, as I learned it, ran:
Come, Thou Fount of every blessing,
Tune my heart to sing Thy grace;
Streams of mercy, never ceasing,
Call for songs of loudest praise.
Teach me some melodious sonnet,
Sung by flaming tongues above.
Praise the mount! I’m fixed upon it,
Mount of Thy redeeming love.
[We sang it to 'Nettleton', and fell about laughing every time it came to 'Here I raise my Ebenezer'--a line I would be very sorry to lose]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Our version is like Amos' and also sung to Nettleton, although the Ebenezer line is swapped for "Here I find my greatest treasure." And I'm surprised to not find it in the 1940 Hymnal, given it seems like such a classic piece of hymnody. (Hmm. Is the "Ebenezer" line the connection to using the "Ebenezer" hymn tune -- was this perhaps the original pairing?)
Sorry to belabor this. "Fount" has become a very popular hymn these days, across all age groups. (There's even a folksy, C&W version of it on an Amy Grant album.)
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Funny that abolitionism could inspire bad hymns. When very young indeed I was present when Michael Ramsey gave a question and answer session at one of our ancient universities. One enthusiastic lady asked him about the wonderful promises, or something, in The Battle Hymn of the Republic.
The Blessed Michael, not a putter down by nature, gently but promptly replied that he'd never understood what The Battle Hymn of the Republic meant. What it means I now see, is to struggle to abolish slavery. But for the British, the words don't mean that.
I think most Americans know the song traces its roots to the abolitionist movement. But most folks only know the first verse (it's more of a civil hymn than one sung in churches). It may be the undercurrents of redemptive violence in the hymn that attracts nowadays. Sorry, that last bit might make a good Purg thread, so I'll stop now.
[ 01. September 2012, 20:59: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
... The Battle Hymn of the Republic ... What it means I now see, is to struggle to abolish slavery. But for the British, the words don't mean that.
Really? I think most of us do get that it was about the American Civil War. Honest.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Is "Battle Hymn" included in "Songs of Praise?" I know that looks like a poor attempt to get back to the OP, but I'm just curious how widely known it is on the east side of the Pond.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Is "Battle Hymn" included in "Songs of Praise?" I know that looks like a poor attempt to get back to the OP, but I'm just curious how widely known it is on the east side of the Pond.
It is (at no. 578). I would have said that the piece is well known, even if it doesn't figure in the standard Anglican books such as A&M or (N)EH. It is included in a number of hymnaries of other denominations including the CoI and CoS, but is not always set to the tune 'Battle Hymnn / John Brown's body'.
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Thanks!
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Morlader
Shipmate
# 16040
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Posted
"There is a new BBC cutdown version of Songs of Praise, published about ten years ago."
I can detect little linkage between BBC Songs of Praise and Dearmer's "old" Songs of Praise. BBC SofP is, I think, a collection of the most popular hymns/songs sung in the BBC's TV programme of the same name.
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.. to utmost west.
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Laurence
Shipmate
# 9135
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
A hymn-writer I know has written alternative words to 'who is this with garments gory'. They fit the same wonderful tune,and are also on the same Good Friday theme, but without the obscure biblical allusions which make the former so difficult. I can send details in reply to a PM.
I quite agree that it's not practical as a hymn.
Hitting a congregation with Bozrah's Way (where?) in the second line is bad enough, but going for a full obscurity knock-out with "Idume's Summer" (what's eye-dummy, mum?) before the end of the first verse is just too much. That's before we get the snigger value of "reeking vineyards" and the made-up-English-to-fit-the rhyme of "wreathen/heathen" in verse 3.
Far better to use "Who is this, so meek and helpless", which fits the tune perfectly and has much better theology.
But I realise this may be turning into a Horrible Hymns dead horse, so without any further ado I'll remember that we used Songs of Praise as our school hymnbook when I was 8. We enjoyed hissing "Chrsssssstian soldiers" in the chorus of Onward, Christian Soldiers; there was never anything theologically scary in it for the English Shintoists on the staff, and we the children didn't know anything else. It doesn't seem to have done too much harm.
But looking at it now, it does seem a world away from the stealth Anglo-Catholicism of the 1906 English Hymnal. Had Dearmer's fire gone out after the First World War? Did he think that at that stage, social unity was needed more than Mariology plainchant office hymns, Introits, Grails, Alleluias, Benedictuses and Agnus Deis? Or alternatively did he just think the English Hymnal and Songs of Praise were entirely separate beasts doing different jobs?
Posts: 648 | From: Lincolnshire | Registered: Feb 2005
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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurence:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
A hymn-writer I know has written alternative words to 'who is this with garments gory'. They fit the same wonderful tune,and are also on the same Good Friday theme, but without the obscure biblical allusions which make the former so difficult. I can send details in reply to a PM.
I quite agree that it's not practical as a hymn.
Hitting a congregation with Bozrah's Way (where?) in the second line is bad enough, but going for a full obscurity knock-out with "Idume's Summer" (what's eye-dummy, mum?) before the end of the first verse is just too much. That's before we get the snigger value of "reeking vineyards" and the made-up-English-to-fit-the rhyme of "wreathen/heathen" in verse 3.
I thought obscure references were part of the fun? Who doesn't enjoy singing 'Here I'll raise my Ebenezer', despite (or rather, because of) the fact that — by my estimation — 95% of regular churchgoers have no idea what it means. It's one of those things like the convoluted syntax of 'He, whose confession God of old accepted' or wonderful KVJisms like 'superfluity of naughtiness' that makes churchgoing fun. To iron out all linguistic idiosyncrasies seems to me mistaken for several reasons: firstly, it's an ahistorical attempt to try to create an ideal Christianity that irons over the rough bits and, yes, the absurdities that will always exist in any human endevour ('of the crooked timbers of humanity', and all that), particularly one that has developed over a period of time; secondly, it risks condescending to congregations; thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, it suggests that we take ourselves entirely too seriously. Really, one must ask, what is being an Anglican about if not occasionally saying things in church without having the faintest idea what they mean.
quote:
Originally posted by Laurence:
Had Dearmer's fire gone out after the First World War? Did he think that at that stage, social unity was needed more than Mariology plainchant office hymns, Introits, Grails, Alleluias, Benedictuses and Agnus Deis? Or alternatively did he just think the English Hymnal and Songs of Praise were entirely separate beasts doing different jobs?
Both, I think.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
one must ask, what is being an Anglican about if not occasionally saying things in church without having the faintest idea what they mean.
Being Anglican is being the established church of this nation and that means being available for all - so we need to make our worship reasonably user-friendly, unless we want to be a little club that will die out quite soon.
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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Trisagion
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# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Being Anglican is being the established church of this nation and that means being available for all - so we need to make our worship reasonably user-friendly, unless we want to be a little club that will die out quite soon.
Being Anglican in England perhaps but it must be more than that if being Anglican is to mean anything elsewhere in the World.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Is "Battle Hymn" included in "Songs of Praise?"
On page 358 in my copy.
Astonishingly, it is printed with the wrong tune, ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) some vaguely folky-sounding thing by Martin Shaw, that I assume no-one ever used. If there is a song attached to a tune more strongly than that one, I don't know what it is. The words were written for the tune, not the other way round. The song in a sense is about the tune, an attempt to control and make respectable the original words.
quote:
... I'm just curious how widely known it is on the east side of the Pond.
Very widely known. Or at least as widely known as hymns ever get in a nation that doesn't go to church.
But back when most people did know hymns, in th elate 19th and early 20th centuries, I think just about everyone would have known it. (and would have known "John Brown's Body" of course, even though its not a hymn). Even now its quite well-known. I have sung it in church, though very rarely. We used to sing it at school sometimes. I think I've heard it on the BBC Songs of Praise programme.
[ 02. September 2012, 17:05: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Below the Lansker
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# 17297
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Posted
The Battle Hymn of the Republic was included in Sacred Songs and Solos (Sankey's hymnal here in the UK) so is well known by lots of English-speaking non-conformists of a certain vintage. An over-wrought, multiple key-change all-stops-out arrangement for Soloist, Choir and Organ is (or was) also a popular choice for Welsh Male Voice Choirs.
Posts: 144 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I was staggered that, even amongst presumably well-educated young people (the context was an Oxford college v. a Cambridge college on Monday's 'University Challenge'), there was an almost complete inability to recognise even the most well-known hymn tunes. Perhaps it's high time for a national schools' hymn / song book, and commonly listened-to assembly programme, again.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pine Marten
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# 11068
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Posted
Ha! I saw that, too, Chorister - and was gobsmacked, as was Paxo!
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Morlader
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# 16040
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Posted
Yes, ignorance of old hymn tunes. But without a 'control group' of old(er) people identifying - or not! - heavy metal tunes, is it so reprehensible?
[They weren't very good at the pre-Raphelites either.]
Funny how one expects "well-educated" people to know about one's area of interest/expertise!
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.. to utmost west.
Posts: 858 | From: Not England | Registered: Nov 2010
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Amos
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# 44
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Posted
Students at Oxford and Cambridge only know the names of hymn tunes if they sing in their college choirs.
Outside the choirs, the division is between those who attended independent schools and had to go to chapel and sing hymns and those who went to state schools and didn't and don't. Amongst English people under the age of 40 or so, knowledge of traditional hymnody seems to have become a class shibboleth.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
Percy Dearmer had something of a crisis during World War I which altered his theological thinking quite profoundly. His wife died in Serbia in 1916, and his son had died in Gallipoli a year earlier. He was serving a a YMCA chaplain in France during this period having had enough (I suspect) of trying to sustain SMVPH, and probably suffering from a certain degree on non-combatant's guilt.
Anyway, between 1915 and 1921 his theological views moved away from liberal Anglo-Catholicism towards the then current forms of Modernism, so his later works include such uplifting numbers as 'The Myth of Hell' and 'The Truth about Fasting' which are written from a modernist perspective. Not surprising, considering that most of the ardent old-fashioned liberals I have known have been Merrie England BCP men, his liturgical views changed far less than his theological views.
PD
[ 04. September 2012, 16:42: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Students at Oxford and Cambridge only know the names of hymn tunes if they sing in their college choirs.
I missed that edition of University Challenge. Were they asking for the names of tunes, or for the hymns associated with them? I doubt if many people, whatever their age or their church commitment, would know the former unless they had sung in a choir.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Isn't the purpose for giving children a Christian education, assemblies, RE etc, the hope that they become/grow up Christians, rather than that they know a particular tradition of hymnody?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Isn't the purpose for giving children a Christian education, assemblies, RE etc, the hope that they become/grow up Christians, rather than that they know a particular tradition of hymnody?
Yes. As a non-hymn lover I'd say so. At least a Christian education means they have a familiarity with Christian tradition, and in fairness "traditional hymns" do often embody a lot of that.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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