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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: 'Songs of Praise' (ed. Dearmer)
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Students at Oxford and Cambridge only know the names of hymn tunes if they sing in their college choirs.
I missed that edition of University Challenge. Were they asking for the names of tunes, or for the hymns associated with them? I doubt if many people, whatever their age or their church commitment, would know the former unless they had sung in a choir.
They listened to the music and were asked for the hymns associated with those tunes. One was 'Guide me O thou great Redeemer', which they didn't know. Another was I think 'Abide with me', which they got. Chorister no doubt will remember the others!
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
But without a 'control group' of old(er) people identifying - or not! - heavy metal tunes, is it so reprehensible?
Heavy Metal? Invented round about 1970, achieved its maximum popularity mid 70s immediately pre-punk, another brief burst of popularity in the 1980s but has been essentially a (largish) minority interest ever since - I'd expect the average undergraduate to know less about it than their parents! Possibly even grandparents.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Isn't the purpose for giving children a Christian education, assemblies, RE etc, the hope that they become/grow up Christians, rather than that they know a particular tradition of hymnody?
How could it possibly be? RE and "acts of worship" in schools have been made compulsory by parliament after parliament for decades, mostly full of non-Christian MPs representing largely non-Christian voters. I have no idea why they keep on voting for it. But it can hardly be so that they children become Christians. If that's what they wanted wouldn't they go to church, or teach them about Christianity at home? Most people do neither.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Morlader
Shipmate
# 16040
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Posted
@ken Yes, that was my point about the control group - people of advanced years, not Oxbridge undergrads.
Knowing the first lines of hymns sung to played tunes is hardly "music" though: it was supposed to be a 'music' round, I think.
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.. to utmost west.
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Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
RE and "acts of worship" in schools have been made compulsory by parliament after parliament for decades, mostly full of non-Christian MPs representing largely non-Christian voters. I have no idea why they keep on voting for it. But it can hardly be so that they children become Christians. If that's what they wanted wouldn't they go to church, or teach them about Christianity at home? Most people do neither.
From what I remember of RE lessons and assembly at school, the reason they keep on voting for it is precisely to prevent people becoming interested in matters of Christian belief. School assembly in my time consisted of well-meaning fuzzy pep-talks about being nice and playing by the rules, that being a Christian didn't really have anything to do with belief, it had more to do with respectability. The hymns chosen reinforced the message and the Bible readings were tacked on but never commented upon. The RE teacher who chose the Bible readings was a Christian believer and must have hoped and prayed that some kernel of Biblical truth would be able to fight its way through the rest of the dross being served up. Had I not been a Christian already, school assembly and RE lessons would have convinced me that the Christian faith had nothing at all to say to me.
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Originally posted by Below the Lansker:
quote:
From what I remember of RE lessons and assembly at school, the reason they keep on voting for it is precisely to prevent people becoming interested in matters of Christian belief.
This!
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Below the Lansker has hit the nail on the head! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I still can't take seriously the sort of hymns sung in school assembly. I'd rather have Sweet Sacrament Divine, Shine Jesus Shine, Daily Daily Sing to Mary, Amazing Grace, Faith of our Forebears or What a Friend We Have in Jesus rather than Praise My Soul the King of Heaven, Dear Lord and Father of Mankind or almost anything by Charles Wesley yet again.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I still can't take seriously the sort of hymns sung in school assembly. I'd rather have Sweet Sacrament Divine, ... rather than Praise My Soul the King of Heaven, Dear Lord and Father of Mankind or almost anything by Charles Wesley yet again.
You cannot be serious!! ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I'd rather have [various nice songs] than Praise My Soul the King of Heaven, Dear Lord and Father of Mankind or almost anything by Charles Wesley yet again.
What on earth is wrong with "Praise My Soul the King of Heaven"? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Excellent paraphrase of a psalm, and to an easily singable tune. And written by HF Lyte a Scottish High Churchman who was married to an Irish Methodist and the incumbent of an evangelical English parish at the time. So its almost ecumenical. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) And the same man also wrote "Abide with me" - literally on his deathbed.
And the dozen or two Charles Wesley hymns that are still in regular use are among the best hymns there ever were! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) That's why we still use them and not the other nine hundred and fifty thousand or however many he wrote.
(Don't get me started on the sub-christian Gnostic rubbish that is "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind" - in the unlikely event that anyone here is interested in how much I hate it all they need to is google for it on this website...)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Venbede, and anyone who wants to pursue the tangent:
There is a perfectly fine thread on Crappy Choruses, Wonky Worship Songs, and Horrible Hymns just waiting for your contributions in Dead Horses. Many thanks.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I was staggered that, even amongst presumably well-educated young people (the context was an Oxford college v. a Cambridge college on Monday's 'University Challenge'), there was an almost complete inability to recognise even the most well-known hymn tunes. Perhaps it's high time for a national schools' hymn / song book, and commonly listened-to assembly programme, again.
Yes and my alma mater at that! The wrong team won .... GDBO
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Isn't the purpose for giving children a Christian education, assemblies, RE etc, the hope that they become/grow up Christians, rather than that they know a particular tradition of hymnody?
Neither.
The purpose of RE is that children can learn from and about the beliefs of 6 world religions, of which christianity is only one.
The purpose of collective worship (assemblies are not legislated for or against) is to give children help in whatever spirituality they have, be it secular or religious.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The purpose of RE is that children can learn from and about the beliefs of 6 world religions, of which christianity is only one.
What are the other five?
[fixed code]
[ 05. September 2012, 17:55: Message edited by: seasick ]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I wasn't meaning the purpose the DoE has for RE. I mean what I assume we hope it will achieve. Those aren't the same thing.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I wasn't meaning the purpose the DoE has for RE. I mean what I assume we hope it will achieve. Those aren't the same thing.
Who are 'we'?
Not just the Dept. of Ed., under whatever of its ever increasing changes of title want, but what educationists believe to be right.
Also what most parents want.
I don't thing that the Christian minority has a right to impose its views on to a largely secular society.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
The last five posts have wandered squarely into Purgatorial territory.
Can we get back on topic, please (if there is anything more to be said regarding Songs of Praise)? Thank you.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Meaculpa
Shipmate
# 11821
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Posted
An interesting side note to the singing of "Once to Every Man and Nation" which has been both roundly criticized and staunchly upheld in this thread (I think it rather fine, actually).
In fact, all of us alive today should be most grateful that it appears in SOP and more especially in the wonderful 1940 Episcopal hymnary.
Why?
Well, in the late 1950's or early 1960's the skipper of one of Soviet Russia's nuclear subs just off America's Atlantic coast received an "authentic" launch code. Had he done his duty by the strict lights of his training, six warheads would have immediately been launched and rained down enormous havoc minutes later on Washington and New York - and WWIII would inevitably have followed.
However, the relatively young man - who had been a Naval Attaché at Washington in the course of his career, and so spoke very good English - remembered that just months before he had attended in some official capacity a service at Washington's National Cathedral, at that happy time quite Orthodox with a wonderful men and boys' choir.
He was not religious, of course(!) but remembered vividly being moved by the words of the hymn in question, the second line of which is "Comes the moment to decide" - In the circumstance, knowing the consequences, he felt this was his "once" and that he could not possibly launch the missiles without additional verification. Tensions had not been particularly high beyond the general strained atmosphere, and the order out of the blue simply made no sense.
Indeed, before he could send a coded request for such confirmation, frantic messages came into the comm centre of the sub aborting the original order as someone in the Kremlin or wherever had sent the wrong code. So - the power of the words on the mind of an aetheist Communist had their impact - for all of our and our progeny and civilization's good.
Ponder that! wow!
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Whew, indeed.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
We've had discussions on this book before - if anyone's interested this is a link to one (pointing to my own wibble on the subject so I won't bother you all with repeating it here)
Yes, but many of the topics here come around again (and sometimes again and again) after a while. I suppose that this is inevitable. Dearmer's rewriting of 'Let all mortal flesh' certainly has, but not having Ken's encyclopaediac memory I can't remember where or when.
Interesting to see who contributed last time around. Some of the names are familiar, but not ones that I have seen recently - like Foaming Draught (who makes reference to Fortescue), or Audrey Ely, who initiated that discussion, but looks to have moved on. Or did she upset someone? Or was that Max? I recall her (AE) asking a question about the Society of Free Catholics - how long before that one comes around again? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Tangent - the sig - Cornish, Breton or Old Welsh?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ken:
[qb] We've had discussions on this book before - if anyone's interested this is a link to one (pointing to my own wibble on the subject so I won't bother you all with repeating it here)
but not having Ken's encyclopaediac memory I can't remember where or when.
Or as much time to spend on Google.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
We've had discussions on this book before - if anyone's interested this is a link to one (pointing to my own wibble on the subject so I won't bother you all with repeating it here)
Yes, but many of the topics here come around again (and sometimes again and again) after a while. I suppose that this is inevitable. Dearmer's rewriting of 'Let all mortal flesh' certainly has, but not having Ken's encyclopaediac memory I can't remember where or when.
Interesting to see who contributed last time around. Some of the names are familiar, but not ones that I have seen recently - like Foaming Draught (who makes reference to Fortescue), or Audrey Ely, who initiated that discussion, but looks to have moved on. Or did she upset someone? Or was that Max? I recall her (AE) asking a question about the Society of Free Catholics - how long before that one comes around again?
Tangent - the sig - Cornish, Breton or Old Welsh?
Welsh - but early middle rather than old.
PS "Sorry, that member's private message mailbox is full. Please try sending your private message another time, or perhaps to someone else. You could try posting a message for the intended recipient on the "Your PM box is full" thread in All Saints, but he/she probably won't be reading that thread. Very few people ever do."
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Thanks. Hard to tell when it's that old.
PS - PM box cleared...
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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moveabletype
Apprentice
# 10919
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Meaculpa:
An interesting side note to the singing of "Once to Every Man and Nation" which has been both roundly criticized and staunchly upheld in this thread (I think it rather fine, actually).
quote:
New occasions teach new duties, time makes ancient good uncouth,
They must upward still and onward, who would keep abreast of truth.
I didn't think that was your style, Meaculpa.
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