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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Epistle
Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:

And technically, it's illegal for an unlicenced person to be preaching.

No its not. Not in the CofE. The incumbent can ask anyone to preach. Canon b18:
quote:

At the invitation of the minister having the cure of souls another person may preach with the permission of the bishop of the diocese given either in relation to the particular occasion or in accordance with diocesan directions.


OK, fair enough, but the words "with the permission of the bishop of the diocese" are very important in that Canon.

[ 02. September 2012, 17:45: Message edited by: Spike ]

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Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
If one has to stand for the reading of the gospel, why doesn't one stand for a reading from Acts, considering it is part two of Luke?

There are places where one does. In the Norwegian-American church tradition in which I grew up, we did not stand until the Dominus Vobiscum before the Collect of the Day, and then remained standing for all the scriptures, until the end of the Creed immediately after the readings. I believe this is the traditional practice in Norway, but I could be mistaken.
A little research has shown that yours may be the more ancient custom. It is possible that at some stage a dispensation was given to sit for all the readings except for the gospel.
I'm pretty certain that that is the case and I seem to remember reading it somewhere. I'll see if I can find it again.

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Edgeman
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# 12867

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It depends on us. For most daily masses, whoever is celebrating it reads the readings at the ambo. On Saturdays, the order who runs my parish has a special community mass, and the reader is always one of the brothers. Some of them are instituted lectors.

On Sundays at the novus ordo masses, it's usually an unvested layperson. Sometimes one of the brothers will fill in if they're late or can't make it. At the extraordinary form missa cantata, the celebrant chants it at the altar.I know before the 1962 missal, the MC chanted it, which I would personally prefer. (And we could probably manage it- all of the MCs at my parish are former choir boys, I expect they could sing!)

Of course at solemn high mass, the subdeacon chants it facing the altar at the epistle side. I would personally prefer 2 or 3 from the list in the OP.

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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
FCB, in view of the fact that the epistle and gospel were read, or intoned in Latin, which manifestly the people did not, by and large, understand, do you not think that St Thomas might have noticed the dissonance between his words and his experience of the liturgy?

Not entirely. Since the Angelic Doctor was in Italy, not England, it's possible more ordinary people could get something of the gist of what a reading in Latin was about than would have been the case in Stratford atte Bow. Even there, when Latin was still used as lingua franca, some educated people would have been able to understand it, rather like second language English.
I still don't think that was a good case for carrying on using it down until the 1960s.

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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199

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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Generally, we only have one reading; the one that is to be expounded by the preacher, who might be 'ordained' but is just as likely to be an unlicensed member of the church.

And to think that people have accused me of being a 'wind up'. [Roll Eyes]

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PD
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# 12436

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quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Aren't the lessons read to us for our edification?

No, they aren't. They, like the rest of the mass, are for the worship of God, not the intellectual edification of the congregation. That, at least, is the traditional understanding of the matter. The edification of the people (who can, after all, follow along in their hand missals) is a desirable side effect. Frankly, and without meaning to be insulting to you, I do wonder whether misunderstandings like that aren't an argument in favour of chanting the epistle toward the altar.
The Angelic Doctor thinks otherwise:
quote:
There precedes, in the second place, the instruction of the faithful, because this sacrament is "a mystery of faith," as stated above (78, 3, ad 5). Now this instruction is given "dispositively," when the Lectors and Sub-deacons read aloud in the church the teachings of the prophets and apostles: after this "lesson," the choir sing the "Gradual," which signifies progress in life; then the "Alleluia" is intoned, and this denotes spiritual joy; or in mournful offices the "Tract", expressive of spiritual sighing; for all these things ought to result from the aforesaid teaching. But the people are instructed "perfectly" by Christ's teaching contained in the Gospel, which is read by the higher ministers, that is, by the Deacons. And because we believe Christ as the Divine truth, according to John 8:46, "If I tell you the truth, why do you not believe Me?" after the Gospel has been read, the "Creed" is sung in which the people show that they assent by faith to Christ's doctrine. And it is sung on those festivals of which mention is made therein, as on the festivals of Christ, of the Blessed Virgin, and of the apostles, who laid the foundations of this faith, and on other such days.
(Summa Theologiae 3.83.4)

I'm sorry, but reading lessons with your back to the people is a historical accident, and invented reasons why it is a good thing seem silly.

I have a dim recollection of hearing that it was the custom for the Epistle to be chanted from an ambo facing the congregation in the Roman Basilicas long before Vatican II. The same also applied in Abbeys and Cathedrals where a high proportion of those present knew Latin.

However, in parish churches that would not apply and the Congregation of Rites ruled accordingly, hence the habit of singing it facing East. It also had the added advantage that you did not have to heft the Missal! The sucker we have weighs about 12lbs and can get a bit heavy when the Epistle or Gospel is on the long side!

PD

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Olaf
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# 11804

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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
If one has to stand for the reading of the gospel, why doesn't one stand for a reading from Acts, considering it is part two of Luke?

There are places where one does. In the Norwegian-American church tradition in which I grew up, we did not stand until the Dominus Vobiscum before the Collect of the Day, and then remained standing for all the scriptures, until the end of the Creed immediately after the readings. I believe this is the traditional practice in Norway, but I could be mistaken.
A little research has shown that yours may be the more ancient custom. It is possible that at some stage a dispensation was given to sit for all the readings except for the gospel.
I'm pretty certain that that is the case and I seem to remember reading it somewhere. I'll see if I can find it again.
In terms of Catholicism, I have a vague recollection that the general practice in the "Extraordinary Form" (in bygone years, if not now) was to be kneeling until the Gospel? In any event, I think sitting for the Epistle is a relatively recent phenomenon.
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Stephen
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# 40

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:


There is a difference between England and Wales when it comes to the gospel. I've mentioned it elsewhere. Under Common Worship, the gospel may be, and frequently is, read by anyone, whereas in the Welsh books, it must be read by the celebrant or another ordained person, who may be a deacon. But you were asking about the epistle.

Not quite correct. In both 1984 and 2004, there is statement to the effect that a Reader may take the ministry of the Word excluding the absolution, so this would include the Gospel
Otherwise it should be a deacon or a priest ( as a priest is still a deacon or at least is considered to be)

We use 4 and yes we have 3 readings one of which is the Gospel

I think it's a good idea to have an OT lesson as well as the epistle as - as Leo says - all too few people read their Bibles and the Eucharist is probably the only place they'll ever hear the OT, which as the 39 Articles say 'is not contrary to the new'

Everything in our worship should I would have thought be done 'to the greater glory of God' but I would have thought that the role of the epistle was to teach people as well - after all wasn't that the motive of writers like St.Paul

Psalms should always be chanted. To Anglican chant. And I don't sing in a church choir. And I don't find them any more difficult than hymns........

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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# 12699

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
A bugbear of mine. People don't sing psalms because the only way of singing them that anyone is likely to be able to remember, is almost unsingable except by a fully trained choir. And reading one means you end up with four readings.

[Confused] Dunfermline? The Old Hundredth? The Old 124th? Did they somehow cease being psalms?

Second, (S)pike Couchant's posit that the purpose of the readings is not to educate the people is just wrong, from a Protestant POV. Completely and Utterly Wrong, from a Reformed POV. So central is the Word of God that traditional Presbyterian churches have a high pulpit that looks rather like a mound, so that the Word of God may descend upon the people and they be thereby edified and increase in faith. It also helps the sound carry, more practically.

We have a member of the Congregation read the responsive Psalm and the Minister reads the Epistle and Gospel. We sit for the Lessons, after the saying "Presby, Presby they'll no' bend, sittin' there perched on Man's Chief End."

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Spiffy
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# 5267

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quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:


4. The totally modern way: read by an unvested layperson.

Well, that's how we do it at my shack, but while I am unvested* and a layperson, I have been commissioned by my congregation to serve as a Lector.

Which today was Song of Solomon. Which I managed to get through without giggling.

*Okay, except when I am vested as MC and the person who's supposed to read doesn't turn up, I will do the reading in my cassock and surplice.

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venbede
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# 16669

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At the Russian Orthodox cathedral in Ennismore Gardens, London, the epistle is indeed intoned facing the Holy Doors.

From the choir loft at the back of church, so it comes over loud and clear to the congregation in front (with their backs to the invisible reader).

O, and it's intoned by a woman in my experience.

[ 03. September 2012, 07:11: Message edited by: venbede ]

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Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Generally, we only have one reading; the one that is to be expounded by the preacher, who might be 'ordained' but is just as likely to be an unlicensed member of the church.

And to think that people have accused me of being a 'wind up'. [Roll Eyes]
OK, you've had three warnings about this. That sort of thing is not allowed outside Hell. You've just earned yourself 2 weeks shore leave..

Spike
SoF Admin

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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
A bugbear of mine. People don't sing psalms because the only way of singing them that anyone is likely to be able to remember, is almost unsingable except by a fully trained choir. And reading one means you end up with four readings.

[Confused] Dunfermline? The Old Hundredth? The Old 124th? Did they somehow cease being psalms?
.....
We have a member of the Congregation read the responsive Psalm and the Minister reads the Epistle and Gospel. We sit for the Lessons, after the saying "Presby, Presby they'll no' bend, sittin' there perched on Man's Chief End."

I agree with you, though a responsive psalm isn't a metrical one and the whole congregation isn't joining in.

Our diocese has a complete library of metrical psalms here on its website, with a selection of Canticles as well, but I suspect that not many people use them.

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
In terms of Catholicism, I have a vague recollection that the general practice in the "Extraordinary Form" (in bygone years, if not now) was to be kneeling until the Gospel? In any event, I think sitting for the Epistle is a relatively recent phenomenon.

And in terms of MOTR Anglicanism too - that was how i remember 'weekday communion services' when i was a teenager.

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Generally, we only have one reading; the one that is to be expounded by the preacher

We would have three readings. The preacher usually preaches from one, with reference to the other two. But, of course, the service is more than just the sermon. When I'm leading worship I try to thread the Scriptures for the day (including the Psalm, although we rarely explicitely read it) throughout the whole service - in my choice of hymns, the prayers, the 'childrens address' (which, in my case is more of an informal introduction to the theme of the service in simpler language, with often a question and answer format), the liturgy I prepare for Communion. So, even if I don't mention one of the readings in the sermon it is linked into the service. Besides, there's value in reading Scripture even if it isn't expounded.

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Forthview
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Indeed in the pre Vatican 2 form of Mass,nowadays the 'Extraordinary form', the people,in the UK anyway, would kneel from the beginning of the Prayers before the altar (Intoibo ad altare Dei etc.)right through to the Gospel.

An added extra which I remember was a little genuflection by the faithful after they signed themselves at the beginning of the Gospel.

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daronmedway
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# 3012

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Generally, we only have one reading; the one that is to be expounded by the preacher

[E]ven if I don't mention one of the readings in the sermon it is linked into the service. Besides, there's value in reading Scripture even if it isn't expounded.
I agree. The main reason we don't have more readings is a pragmatic one really. The Ministry of the Word (reading/s & sermon) is usually about 30 minutes. Extra readings would either make it too long or require the the sermon to be too short. For an evangelical, asking for the sermon to be shortened in order to save time would be like asking an Anglo-Catholic to use wee cuppies to speed up the Liturgy of the Sacrament.
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Mr. Rob
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# 5823

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quote:
Originally posted by PD:

... I have a dim recollection of hearing that it was the custom for the Epistle to be chanted from an ambo facing the congregation in the Roman Basilicas long before Vatican II. The same also applied in Abbeys and Cathedrals where a high proportion of those present knew Latin ...

Quite so. Your memory serves you well, PD.

M. Couchant's 1-6 ways to read or chant the Epistle seems restricted to local, parish uses of his experience. The history of liturgy in all its varied forms provides many other examples. In addition, Couchant, as usual, fails to note the influence of the 1979 American prayer book, providing for three lessons, last being the Holy Gospel. I that sense there is no more Epistle as such, but merely the first and second lessons preceding the Gospel and Sermon.

To view all of this through the rose colored glasses of what Angloid has called Spike Couchant's
quote:
... diosyncratic and antediluvian slant on anglo-catholicism ...
is somewhat hopeless, because we have come to know his ingrained preferences.

In that sense this thread is, once again, something of a wind-up because Couchant must well know that 99.9% of American liturgical churches these days read the Epistle or lessons from a lectern or ambo facing the people. The Orthodox and other eastern churches, no.

Since Spike Couchant already knew the Epistoraly ceremonial practice of St. Clement's, Philadephia, that's about the end of the story for the USA, except for the RC traditionalists and perhaps St. John's Church Newport, Rhode Island, which is a maybe.
*

[ 03. September 2012, 10:28: Message edited by: Mr. Rob ]

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FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495

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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
FCB, in view of the fact that the epistle and gospel were read, or intoned in Latin, which manifestly the people did not, by and large, understand, do you not think that St Thomas might have noticed the dissonance between his words and his experience of the liturgy?

Apparently Thomas was often unaware of what was going on around him, so it is possible he didn't notice.

More seriously, I suspect he is here laying out the ideal, not the actual practice. Also, much of his experience of liturgy would have been in the friary, where Latin was the lingua franca.

[ 03. September 2012, 10:55: Message edited by: FCB ]

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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
In addition, Couchant, as usual, fails to note the influence of the 1979 American prayer book, providing for three lessons, last being the Holy Gospel.
*

And Mr Rob, in his Americo-centricism, fails to note that it was the Roman Lectionary of the post-Vatican 2 era, and the world-wide and ecumenical Liturgical Movement, that inspired the lectionary of the 1979 Prayer Book and subsequent versions such as RCL. [Razz]

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
At the Eucharist, yes. There must be a Gospel reading and (at least) one other.

Not sure about other denominations, but this isn't true in the C of E. There's nothing in Canon Law requiring a gospel reading, the Lectionary doesn't have canonical force, and the Service of the Word with a Celebration of Holy Communion (Black CW, p.25) doesn't require a gospel reading.

quote:
And technically, it's illegal for an unlicenced person to be preaching.
Depends on the bishop. Canon B18.2 says
quote:
2. The sermon shall be preached by a minister, deaconess, reader or lay
worker duly authorized in accordance with Canon Law. At the invitation
of the minister having the cure of souls another person may preach with
the permission of the bishop of the diocese given either in relation to the
particular occasion or in accordance with diocesan directions.

The bishop of a previous diocese was clear that he was fine with the minister allowing any member of the congregation to preach as long as it was not more than once per term. Hence no need to license them.

One could of course argue that only one sermon per Sunday is required to meet Canon B18.2 in the light of Canon B18.1.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
At the Eucharist, yes. There must be a Gospel reading and (at least) one other.

Not sure about other denominations, but this isn't true in the C of E. There's nothing in Canon Law requiring a gospel reading, the Lectionary doesn't have canonical force, and the Service of the Word with a Celebration of Holy Communion (Black CW, p.25) doesn't require a gospel reading.

More important than the letter of the law is the spirit. The implication of the Lectionary, which provides a gospel reading for the 'second' service when it is a eucharist, is that the Gospel should be read. Canon Law (or at least the declaration of assent made by a minister at licensing) stipulates that the order of service should be 'authorized or allowed by Canon.' Maybe a circular argument, but the liturgies authorised by Canon consist AIUI of the BCP 1662 and Common Worship. Hence any rubrics therein are surely by implication part of Canon Law.

I'd be very unhappy to take part in a celebration of the Eucharist without a proper Liturgy of the Word. I'm surprised that evangelicals are so laid back about this. At a pinch I would accept there might be circumstances when only the Gospel is read, but I would have thought that would be essential.

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
More important than the letter of the law is the spirit. The implication of the Lectionary, which provides a gospel reading for the 'second' service when it is a eucharist, is that the Gospel should be read.

I agree that the Lectionary implies it, but I don't see anywhere external to the lectionary which requires the following of the lectionary. It certainly isn't in Canon Law or the declaration of assent.

quote:
Canon Law (or at least the declaration of assent made by a minister at licensing) stipulates that the order of service should be 'authorized or allowed by Canon.' Maybe a circular argument, but the liturgies authorised by Canon consist AIUI of the BCP 1662 and Common Worship. Hence any rubrics therein are surely by implication part of Canon Law.
Agreed. However, CW doesn't require the use of the lectionary. It describes it as a provision but not a requirement.

I agree that Order 1 and Order 2 in CW both require a gospel reading. But SotW+HC doesn't, and is clearly a form of service authorised or allowed by canon. Hence CW doesn't require a gospel reading at Communion.

Maybe that was a big theological shift with the introduction of CW. Maybe it was accidental, but it is there nevertheless.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I'd be very unhappy to take part in a celebration of the Eucharist without a proper Liturgy of the Word. I'm surprised that evangelicals are so laid back about this. At a pinch I would accept there might be circumstances when only the Gospel is read, but I would have thought that would be essential.

Likewise, IMO Communion is intimately related to the proclaimation of the gospel. I stand there and say "On the night he was betrayed, our Lord took bread ... and said 'do this in remembrance of me'". I don't think I'd be able to honestly do that if I hadn't only a few minutes earlier led the congregation in an act of remembering what the Lord had said and done as I expounded Scripture.

I wouldn't necessarily say that I need to expound the Gospel reading to recall what Christ said and did, but it's certainly easier to do so.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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(S)pike C., as you may know, at St Clement's Philly the Epistle is chanted by the subdeacon (normally) facing eastward. My preference would be for it to be chanted by the subdeacon facing the people. Since it is read for the edificaiton of the faithful, I find it a bit silly to be facing away from the congregation. The celebrant is, of course,simultaneously reading the Epistle up at the altar, sotto voce, flanked by the deacon and the two acolytes behind the deacon.

Every other Anglo-Catholic or High Church shack in the USA that has solemn high mass, in my experience, follows (2), with the subdeacon singing or reading the Epistle facing west. Examples IME have included St Timothy's Fort Worth, St Thomas Fifth Ave, Ascension and St Agnes (DC), and St Mary the Virgin Times Square (although there the subdeacon stands - IIRC - at a lectern on the epistle side of the altar out near the altar rail; amongst others. The use of unvested laymen to read the Epistle seems to be much more common in English Anglo-Catholic practice, whilst in the States it tends to be limited to the Old Testament Lesson only in A-C parishes, though you may alternatively find a vested server reading the OT Lesson from the sanctuary.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard:


I agree that Order 1 and Order 2 in CW both require a gospel reading. But SotW+HC doesn't, and is clearly a form of service authorised or allowed by canon. Hence CW doesn't require a gospel reading at Communion.

OK. But what I said about the spirit of the law, not just the letter. And if it is a deliberate innovation to make the Gospel optional, surely that would be spelt out somewhere? I suspect it's either an oversight, or just an assumption that people will use common sense and follow tradition.

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daronmedway
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Note 5 in CW Service of the Word says, 'it is recognised that if occasion demands there may only be one reading'. It suggests that the lectionary be followed from Advent 3 through to the Baptism of Christ and from Palm Sunday through to Trinity Sunday. It says that if SoW is combined with HC 'the readings of the day are normally used'.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Correction to my post above: I was obviously misremembering SMV Times Sq, as they do east-facing concelebration for their high masses, rather than the traddie three sacred ministers. So no subdeacon. I can't now recall if I've seen the Epistle read by a vested server or by a concelebrant. I'm also thinking that SMV must at times have an actual deacon in residence, so I may have seen the Epistle read there at one time or another by a creature vested in dalmatic.
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Angloid
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Is the apparently common TEC use of vested subdeacons because American a-cs, unlike their British counterparts, are less influenced by contemporary RC practice?

I can understand the special treatment given to the Gospel (deacon, standing, lights and procession), but why should the 'epistle' appear to be more important than the OT, by reserving it to a vested cleric? At least, that is the signal it would give to me.

Where the epistle is chanted, is the OT also chanted? And if not, why not?

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I'd be very unhappy to take part in a celebration of the Eucharist without a proper Liturgy of the Word. I'm surprised that evangelicals are so laid back about this. At a pinch I would accept there might be circumstances when only the Gospel is read, but I would have thought that would be essential.

Likewise, IMO Communion is intimately related to the proclaimation of the gospel. I stand there and say "On the night he was betrayed, our Lord took bread ... and said 'do this in remembrance of me'". I don't think I'd be able to honestly do that if I hadn't only a few minutes earlier led the congregation in an act of remembering what the Lord had said and done as I expounded Scripture.

I wouldn't necessarily say that I need to expound the Gospel reading to recall what Christ said and did, but it's certainly easier to do so.

I completely agree with this. The Liturgy of the Word should include the proclamation of Jesus Christ. If the sermon ain't about Jesus, it ain't a Christian sermon. I wouldn't want to be at a communion service where Christ wasn't proclaimed either.

I happily preach Christ from the whole of Scripture. I don't think there's anything special about the story of Herod killing John the Baptist (Gospel reading) rather than Philippians 2 (non-gospel reading) that makes it more suitable for use in a communion service.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard:

I happily preach Christ from the whole of Scripture. I don't think there's anything special about the story of Herod killing John the Baptist (Gospel reading) rather than Philippians 2 (non-gospel reading) that makes it more suitable for use in a communion service.

Basically because the latter is Paul's (admittedly inspired) reflections on the Christ-event; the former, or perhaps more accurately the four gospels as a whole, is a first-hand (or close second-hand) record of the Christ event. Even allowing for the writer's own interpretation and other factors. The Gospel (ie the writings of the four evangelists) has always been recognised as the primary element of the - wider sense - Gospel, surely?

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daronmedway
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Ditto. If we have two readings I'm more inclined to differentiate them according to OT and NT than between gospel account and epistle.
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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
(S)pike C., as you may know, at St Clement's Philly the Epistle is chanted by the subdeacon (normally) facing eastward. My preference would be for it to be chanted by the subdeacon facing the people. Since it is read for the edificaiton of the faithful, I find it a bit silly to be facing away from the congregation. The celebrant is, of course,simultaneously reading the Epistle up at the altar, sotto voce, flanked by the deacon and the two acolytes behind the deacon.

Have I understood correctly that two people are simultaneously reading the same passage in different parts of the church - or does the "Correction to my post above" correct that as well?

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard:

I happily preach Christ from the whole of Scripture. I don't think there's anything special about the story of Herod killing John the Baptist (Gospel reading) rather than Philippians 2 (non-gospel reading) that makes it more suitable for use in a communion service.

Basically because the latter is Paul's (admittedly inspired) reflections on the Christ-event; the former, or perhaps more accurately the four gospels as a whole, is a first-hand (or close second-hand) record of the Christ event. Even allowing for the writer's own interpretation and other factors. The Gospel (ie the writings of the four evangelists) has always been recognised as the primary element of the - wider sense - Gospel, surely?
No. The gospel is no more 'apparent' in the gospel accounts than it is in any other NT text, although their contribution is unique and vital. These texts are not more special than any other biblical text. In fact I think it is a mistake to call these texts 'gospels' - they are biographical accounts of Jesus' earthly ministry according to particular authors which tell us something about the gospel. But they are not the gospel.
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Angloid
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Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Have I understood correctly that two people are simultaneously reading the same passage in different parts of the church
I think so. Unreformed RC practice, unthinkingly copied by some Anglicans who should know better, had come to think that the priest should himself read every word of the liturgy irrespective of what was done by others. This was because the 'low mass', in which the priest necessarily did everything because there were no other ministers present, was seen as the norm, rather than the exception. So that you had the nonsense of the priest reading the words of the Gloria while it was being sung, and then sitting down; or as above, reading the epistle and gospel even though they were read aloud by others. Inability to delegate, they call it in some contexts!

[ 03. September 2012, 16:47: Message edited by: Angloid ]

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The Silent Acolyte

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Yes, Enoch, you have understood correctly. Bizarre isn't it? The celebrant says these things privately, that is, audible only to himself.

This is true of the Epistle and Gospel, the minor propers, and the ordinary (Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei), if sung by a cantor or choir.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The gospel is no more 'apparent' in the gospel accounts than it is in any other NT text, although their contribution is unique and vital.

[my italics]
Enough reason, one would think, why an excerpt should be read at every celebration of the eucharist.

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Thanks Angloid and Silent Acolyte. On this board one learns something new and odd every day.

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seasick

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Is the apparently common TEC use of vested subdeacons because American a-cs, unlike their British counterparts, are less influenced by contemporary RC practice?

I can understand the special treatment given to the Gospel (deacon, standing, lights and procession), but why should the 'epistle' appear to be more important than the OT, by reserving it to a vested cleric? At least, that is the signal it would give to me.

Where the epistle is chanted, is the OT also chanted? And if not, why not?

Is it not simply because at the time the customs developed there was no OT reading at Mass? One might surmise that if the older rites had OT readings then someone (probably a cleric, probably vested) would have been appointed to read them. I suspect it's more a historical accident than a privileging of the Epistle over the OT. Indeed, remembering that the "Epistle" in the older rites was sometimes from the OT it might be argued that both should now be read by the subdeacon, if you happen to have one handy.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
(S)pike C., as you may know, at St Clement's Philly the Epistle is chanted by the subdeacon (normally) facing eastward. My preference would be for it to be chanted by the subdeacon facing the people. Since it is read for the edificaiton of the faithful, I find it a bit silly to be facing away from the congregation. The celebrant is, of course,simultaneously reading the Epistle up at the altar, sotto voce, flanked by the deacon and the two acolytes behind the deacon.

Have I understood correctly that two people are simultaneously reading the same passage in different parts of the church - or does the "Correction to my post above" correct that as well?
In the Tridentine Rite, the celebrant and/or sacred ministers say all the parts of the Mass that are sung by the choir or said by another minister. Thus, the celebrant goes to the gospel side of the altar during the gradual and reads the Gospel in the "silent" or "secret" voice before the deacon sings the Gospel out loud from the north side of the sanctuary. Similarly, the celebrant is reading the Epistle in a low voice during the time that the subdeacon is singing that reading aloud. Likewise, the sacred ministers, joined by servers to the extent feasible, recite the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, and other bits of the Ordinary whilst the musical settings of these texts are being sung by the choir. This is usage followed in the English Missal and thus done at St Clement's.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Yes, Enoch, you have understood correctly. Bizarre isn't it? The celebrant says these things privately, that is, audible only to himself.

This is true of the Epistle and Gospel, the minor propers, and the ordinary (Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei), if sung by a cantor or choir.

Apologies, SA: I missed your post before reiterating the same answer.
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
. This is usage followed in the English Missal and thus done at St Clement's.

And people used to criticise the Parson's Handbook as 'British Museum religion'! [Ultra confused]

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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The English Missal is Vatican Museums religion, surely? Actually I quite like the British Museum religion of St Percy.
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PD
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My own impression, as a Brit resident in the USA, is that Anglo-Catholic practice, as opposed to theology, was and is a little more mainstream in PECUSA/ECUSA/TEC than it ever was in the Church of England. As a result there has been less of a tendancy to unthinkingly follow the local RC interpretations of the Vatican II documents on the liturgy, and the Novus Ordo liturgy. The Biretta Belt went a bit more post-Vatican II in its liturgical practice than the Coasts bac in the late-70s, but I think the Coasts are catching up.

I find that St Hardup's is stuck firmly in the mid-1960s. The ceremonial of the main Sung Mass is simplified but still largely Tridentine. However, some of the 'silly stuff' has been eliminated. For example, the celebrant sits and listens whilst the acolyte or subdeacon reads the Epistle facing the people. Also, there is a rule here that unless there is a very, very good reason to do otherwise, the BCP rubrics take precedence over Ritual Notes. The Low Masses are more 'Eastward facing Novus Ordo' in ceremonial.

We have allowed our use to evolve a little, but we still remain rather traditional. Lay people, in the form of licensed lay readers, are permitted to administer the chalice, and lay folks read the lessons at the Offices - if I can get the volunteers. The liturgy is a living thing, and we have to hit a balance between fossilization and revolution, and let things evolve slowly.

PD

[ 03. September 2012, 18:08: Message edited by: PD ]

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Where the epistle is chanted, is the OT also chanted? And if not, why not?

Yes - I have done each of them in my time when we have a 'high church day' - indeed it is odd that the epistle and OT tones are more complicated that the gospel ones.

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The Silent Acolyte

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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Apologies, SA: I missed your post before reiterating the same answer.

Da nada, LSvK. Besides, I fumbled the name of the voice the priest uses, while you got it right. Anyway, Angloid got past the post first as the three of us were rushing to describe this oddness.
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venbede
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Yes, Enoch, you have understood correctly. Bizarre isn't it? The celebrant says these things privately, that is, audible only to himself.

Percy Dearmer in The Parson's Handbook agrees with this in regard to the epistle. The 1662 BCP says the priest reads the epistle, so that is what he must do. The epistle is read or sung audibly at the same time by another minister from "the appointed place" (unspecified in the main text). In a footnote, Dearmer suggests chanting the epistle is probably impractical in most places, although he allow for the possibility.

Dearmer spends some time insisting that the epistle is read facing the people, which is also suggested by Fortescue's buddy, J O'Connell.

However the BCP says the reader should conclude by saying "Here endeth the epistle" so that is what should always be said even when the passage comes from a Biblical book which is not a letter, ie Acts or Revelation.

All perfectly logical of course, but don't go saying Percy cannot be pedantic and fussy at times.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

All perfectly logical of course, but don't go saying Percy cannot be pedantic and fussy at times.

Oh, Percy's the epitome of pedantic. Legalistic even. But there was good reason for this: he was defending ceremonial practices by pointing out their conformity to the rubrics of the BCP, and hence ensuring that everything he did in church was.

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Where the epistle is chanted, is the OT also chanted? And if not, why not?

In our case, yes.

In the common Russian chant tradition, the Old Testament and sometimes the apostolic readings are chanted on a single note, perhaps with some inflection, while the Gospel is read to a particular chant. In another Russian tradition, the apostolic readings, and sometimes the Gospel, are done in a "rising from the grave" tone, in which the reader begins very low and goes up by a fraction of a tone for each line, (often increasing in volume as he goes).

My poor convert English ears cannot bear the latter tradition. Therefore, I tend to use a Carpatho-Russian chant, in which a simple chant with three repeating musical phrases is used for the Old Testament, and the Epistle and Gospel are read to a more elaborate form. There's a video of me getting this Epistle chant slightly wrong (and too fast due to nerves) on the day of my ordination here. I learnt the chant from sheet music but have since heard a Ukrainian priest of Carpatho-Russian extraction do the Gospel in this manner, as well as having a recording of me doing it commented on by another priest of similar background so have modified my practice accordingly.

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Mamacita

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The Scrumpmeister, you have a very pleasant voice to listen to.

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