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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Tat on Tippets
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
rose is Our Lady's colour in England, with the exception of a few RC outlets which enjoy the Spanish privilege of blue.
If the reader only has an alb and cannot obtain or afford a cassock and surplice, would it be better for them to wear their alb/cassock-alb ungirdled and unamiced and unapparelled?
I didn't know that about Rose (rather than white) our Lady's colour in England. We have a pale blue set going back to the opening of the church a century ago and a more recent set as the originals were getting delicate.
The Church provides the albs. It's only on the rare occasions that the blue is worn that the Reader's scarf looks like a concelebrant's stole.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
rose is Our Lady's colour in England, with the exception of a few RC outlets which enjoy the Spanish privilege of blue.
I didn't know that about Rose (rather than white) our Lady's colour in England. We have a pale blue set going back to the opening of the church a century ago and a more recent set as the originals were getting delicate.
Rose? Really? Since when? It was never used in Sarum or any of the other Uses as far as I recall, and it's only Roman Catholic use would be of Laetare and Gaudete.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I must look at eating crow, if not perhaps actually ordering it. I heard this put forth at a liturgical conference some years ago and had distinct a recollection of seeing it in S Percy's work. However, I cannot find the reference or, indeed, anything at all other than a late mediaeval devotional poem and a line in one of Frederick Rolfe's less salubrious works.
There are references to white as Our Lady's colour in places not covered by the Spanish privilege. However, upon reflection, I like the idea of rose as a colour for feasts of the BVM and anyone introducing it into their customary might thank me for the suggestion.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bwnni
Apprentice
# 17342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
The Church provides the albs. It's only on the rare occasions that the blue is worn that the Reader's scarf looks like a concelebrant's stole. [/QB]
Something that makes me shudder... why do some 'Lay Readers'/'Readers'/'LLMs' etc. always wear their blue scarf when assisting at the Eucharist? If it's the tradition to celebrate in surplice and scarf, then I couldn't really have an objection: but seeing a priest wearing the chasuble, a deacon wearing stole (and sometimes dalmatic) being assisted by a lay minister in choir dress doesn't make sense to me. Is there some Reader's Council/Guild rule that states that the Blue Scarf must always be worn? Would be interested to know how prevalent the practice is and how 'kosher' it is.
Posts: 5 | Registered: Sep 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Each diocese has its own regs. about blue scarves etc.
This diocese changed its policy AFTER the parish purchased an alb for me (I already had cassock, cotta, surplice etc.) So if I don't wear it, I am sort of snubbing the givers here.
Also, everyone else in the sanctuary wears albs - so why should i be different and stand out?
As for deacons and stuff, if we have a priest and a deacon robed up in chasuble and dalmatic, (rare occasion owing to staffing problems) then i wear a tunicle. Sorted.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bwnni
Apprentice
# 17342
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Posted
It's the lack of uniformity that winds me up. Following the leader r.e. vesture is a good idea. Wish there could be some sort of provincial/national agreement on it; however, I think there are more pressing matters for the CofE at the moment.
Posts: 5 | Registered: Sep 2012
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bwnni:
It's the lack of uniformity that winds me up.
Why?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Quite.
This is the C of E......we don't do uniformity.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
I wear an adorned tippett on the appropriate occasions.
On Civic/Military occasions I wear either my old Chaplain's tippett with it RAChD badges on each end, or, as Chaplain to the Royal British Legion here, my tippett with the RBL badges on each end. Both have medal ribbons sewn on, and on occasions when medals are worn, so do I.
It's permitted, it's customary.
I really don't see the problem. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
At Remembrance Day or similarly civic services, I have often seen clergy wear their medals and ribbons on their tippets and scarves. As Chad says, it is expected. I once saw a chaplain captain's bars embroidered, which I thought was highly inappropriate and I hope that his archdeacon would have a word with him.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by +Chad:
I wear an adorned tippett on the appropriate occasions.
On Civic/Military occasions I wear either my old Chaplain's tippett with it RAChD badges on each end, or, as Chaplain to the Royal British Legion here, my tippett with the RBL badges on each end. Both have medal ribbons sewn on, and on occasions when medals are worn, so do I.
It's permitted, it's customary.
I really don't see the problem.
I think it's one thing so to do in Britain and another in the US. In the case of the latter, you occasionally (rarely, but sometimes)see TEC clergy wearing military service ribbons on their tippet on occasions like 4th of July (a prayerbook National Day of observance in our BCP). I find it rather grotesque, especially in a civilian parish church context. It's introducing a militaristic, personalised and nationalistic element where it doesn't belong IMO. I'm willing to make an exception for chaplains to American war veterans organisations or active duty military chaplains, but it certainly has no place in a normal parochial context IMO.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Sorry - something strange happened when I was trying to edit that last post.
[deleted mis-edited post - looks like you inadvertently pressed the quote button instead of the edit button: it's easily done]
[ 18. September 2012, 16:51: Message edited by: seasick ]
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
... you occasionally (rarely, but sometimes)see TEC clergy wearing military service ribbons on their tippet on occasions like 4th of July (a prayerbook National Day of observance in our BCP)...
Surely any kind of adornment is out of place on what is, presumably, a Day of Fasting and Repentance for the National Sin of Rebellion against Lawful (and indeed Consecrated) Authority?
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 18. September 2012, 16:27: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
It will be difficult to get back on topic after that observation.
Possibly, but we'd be much obliged if people could try!
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Surely any kind of adornment is out of place on what is, presumably, a Day of Fasting and Repentance for the National Sin of Rebellion against Lawful (and indeed Consecrated) Authority?
That's only true about rebellion, and it's only counted as sin, if the Consecrated Authority wins. As I recall, King George III had some considerable difficulty with the final facts of the rebellion as presented to him.
First US Ambassdor John Adams presents his credentials
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Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Oh, now you're just teasing...
But yes, let's get back to tippets.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by +Chad:
.....On Civic/Military occasions I wear either my old Chaplain's tippett with it RAChD badges on each end, or, as Chaplain to the Royal British Legion here, my tippett with the RBL badges on each end. Both have medal ribbons sewn on, and on occasions when medals are worn, so do I.
I think it's one thing so to do in Britain and another in the US.....I find it rather grotesque, especially in a civilian parish church context. It's introducing a militaristic, personalised and nationalistic element where it doesn't belong IMO. I'm willing to make an exception for chaplains to American war veterans organisations or active duty military chaplains, but it certainly has no place in a normal parochial context IMO.
What about Civic/Military services in a Parish Church. As well as being a Parish Church we are also the Town Centre 'Civic' church, so some of these services take place within the walls.
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by +Chad:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by +Chad:
.....On Civic/Military occasions I wear either my old Chaplain's tippett with it RAChD badges on each end, or, as Chaplain to the Royal British Legion here, my tippett with the RBL badges on each end. Both have medal ribbons sewn on, and on occasions when medals are worn, so do I.
I think it's one thing so to do in Britain and another in the US.....I find it rather grotesque, especially in a civilian parish church context. It's introducing a militaristic, personalised and nationalistic element where it doesn't belong IMO. I'm willing to make an exception for chaplains to American war veterans organisations or active duty military chaplains, but it certainly has no place in a normal parochial context IMO.
What about Civic/Military services in a Parish Church. As well as being a Parish Church we are also the Town Centre 'Civic' church, so some of these services take place within the walls.
I'd rather not see that in TEC parish churches (or cathedrals for that matter). I can't comment on the situation in respect to the English Erastian Dept of Christian Religion.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I'd rather not see that in TEC parish churches (or cathedrals for that matter). I can't comment on the situation in respect to the English Erastian Dept of Christian Religion.
Keep it cool, Lietuvos - no need to make sweeping judgements about Erastian heresy with regards to other people's traditions, even if you don't approve of them.
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
To clarify in less flippant terms, ISTM that there are certain functions that may be suitable for a Church-as-by-law-established, indeed one whose Supreme Governour is HM the Queen, that are not really appropriate to my own Anglican province, given the absence of the State connexion.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Hmm. Part of me agrees with you. But, at the same time, what if +Chad invited a non-conformist Forces chaplain to the same service. If this chaplain was inclined to wear a tippet, as some might, would it be wrong to adorn it in the same way?
(posting as a Shipmate this time!)
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
Worth bearing in mind that tippets & Anglican "convocation habit" in general is not sacramental or even liturgical. In the UK, anyway, it's a formal dress outfit for civil/legal occasions & so it's personal. Eucharistic vestments, etc - that's where you're "putting on Christ".
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I would think most of us view cassock, surplice and tippet to primarily constitute choir habit for officiating the daily offices and other non-Eucharistic pastoral functions, and only coincidentally as convocation or court dress (in which case it still really isn't personal but rather a type of uniform).
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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ChrisHuriwai
Apprentice
# 17111
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Posted
I have the crest of the Bishopric I belong to on my Tippet, as do many other clergy. It has become a bit of a tradition here...not too over the top though. That said, I have seen some tippets that more resemble a mural than clerical garb.
Posts: 4 | From: New Zealand | Registered: May 2012
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I have posted on this before, but it is quite customary - indeed mandatory - for British Army chaplains to wear the RAChD badge on their black scarves together with medal ribbons. On certain days medals are worn over the ribbons.
This is true for all chaplains of any denomination. Roman Catholic chaplains wear a purple scarf with badges and medal ribbons the same way.
On Ops (and most visibily in Camp Bastion), all chaplains wear their scarves over combat dress (just uniform no cassock etc). This is required. With choir dress the black scarf with badges (which tend to be embroidered onto the scarf rather than sewn on) is worn with cassock and surplice. Free church chaplains wear it with cassock and gown.
The present Chaplain General is a baptist minister and wears a red cassock (as a Queen's Honorary Chaplain) black gown, bands and hood. His scarf has his QHC badge, medal ribbons, and RAChD badges. The Deputy Chaplain General happens to be a Northern Irish Presbyterian, and dresses the same as the CG.
Although the tippet (black scarf) looks very elegant when totally unadorned it is a long standing custom for military chaplains to wear theirs thus.
In civilian life I have seen retired chaplains do the same. Many happen to hold chaplaincies (to BLESMA; to the RBL; the Burma Star Association and so on). I have seen a priest assisting here with a scarf and his Royal Australian Air Force badges on from WW2.
The vicar wore a scarf unadorned with badges; but he always proudly wore his Military Cross (MC) gained for conspicuous gallantry on the Somme in WW1.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Good for him.
I don't think ++Robert Runcie routinely wore medals or ribbons, but I imagine he must have done on some occasions. Does anyone have any information about this?
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