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Source: (consider it) Thread: Swords in Church
Try
Shipmate
# 4951

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I should note that our sloped floor is not a new feature. Our current building was built in the 1890s by a low-church congregation who borrowed a lot of ideas from the Akron-plan sanctuaries used by the local Methodists.

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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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There, there, TSA, I was going gently demolish your post, and still am, but never mind about the big bottoms comment.

What really gets me is your take on flags. Not that they don't belong in sanctuaries, they don't, but American Battle Pennant? [Disappointed] I know many United Churches who have Canadian flags perched above the pulpit and Lord's Table, I wish they wouldn't, but still. Guns are much more dangerous. No guns in the building! If you put forth that motion at General Council it'd probably get more support than our Official Doctrine.

On civic religion, my church is the rain-out location for the Royal Canadian Legion's Remembrance Day service. The vets have used the Auditorium, but the heat one day caused a vet to pass out. Now we encourage them, nay beg them to use the Sanctuary (includes nave) for their own comfort and well-being. It has pews for the aged vets to sit on, a full sound system, aisles to parade the Colours.... No, we don't make a fuss about the Colours. Sometimes a church is a community building, and this is one of those times.

Second, on handguns, Augustine somewhat exaggerates. Many people own handguns in Ontario (and Canada, all criminal law is federal here), but they are very, very tightly controlled. You have to keep them in locker at home, and you can take them to the range. Before you do, you have to call a 1-800 number to tell the police you are moving your handgun, you have to keep it locked in the trunk and tell them the precise route, which you can't deviate from. I have family members who own guns. Handguns are more trouble than they're worth.

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Augustine the Aleut
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I was imprecise in my phrasing. My mind lept from Florida's concealed-carry provisions to the Ontario concealed-carry figures under Canadian law without specifying that. I had also misheard the number: it is not 30, but 13. Licensed handguns (known as "prohibited weapons" under the law) can be held under the restrictions outlined by SPK.

A quick run through ACoC canon law says nothing about weapons, however. I can't find my Dearmer right now, but will check tomorrow to see if S Percy says anything about them.

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Mr. Rob
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# 5823

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quote:
Originally posted by Try:
... the processional will be led by a police honor guard armed with ceremonial swords and (deactivated) rifles ...

Dear me, it is most inappropriate, not to say strictly against US military regulations for a color guard to carry rifles, "deactivated" or not, inside a church building, much less in the context of a worship service. I'm sure the military regulations of other countries must have similar restrictions for the display of arms in church.

Here is a link the video of the recent memorial service for astronaut Neil Armstrong which took place Sept 13, at Washington Cathedral. First, a piper enters leading the Armstrong family up the nave toward the choir. Then the piper retires, and the USA and US Navy colors are carried forward down the nave at slow march. There are four ratings in the party, two bearers and two supporters. Note that no arms are carried.

At the head of the nave, before the choir steps, the color guard, stops, pivots and stands without salute to present. They turn and leave into the north transept.

US Navy color guard at Washington Cathedral Armstrong Memorial Service
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Gee D
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Thank you for that link, Mr Rob. To again hear Kennedy speak was very moving.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Vaticanchic
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In the UK anyway, uniform regulations for servicemen & women are fairly strict & swords are rarely worn except for formal parades. There are rules for when uniforms/medals may be worn in isolated (as in civilian) contexts.

Apart from this, it would be considered a faux pas for an officer to turn up in uniform to something completely unmilitary, unless specifically invited to do so by the host. Eg, bride's parents might well invite wedding guests to wear uniform/medals for whatever reason.

Generally, officers sent to church to represent somebody formally would wear medals without sword, 1Bs as the RN calls it. If they do then Army officers anyway, who can't sit without detaching sword, would I'm sure be glad to stack in a corner.

I really can't see many occasions when officers would arrive with a sword unless invited.

Having said this, a sword is badge of an officer's rank, not so much a weapon. And anyway the reason the groom has the bride on his left is because that's his non-sword arm.

I think, without looking, that the Prince of Wales was married with his sword. Certainly Prince Philip tends to have his sword for the big family weddings.

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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
Certainly Prince Philip tends to have his sword for the big family weddings.

I wouldn't have thought he needed it, with that tongue. [Biased]

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Organ Builder
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I rather doubt this was during a service, but this plate from Dom Bedos has always tickled me. I think the sword is just propped next to the organist, instead of actually worn. It can't make pedaling easy, though.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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moveabletype
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They are symbolic weapons in a modern context; don't know if that changes the logic or not.

I've wore a sword in church, respectably, a couple of times, when I was a Canadian army reserve officer, at the Anglican cathedral in Toronto on Remembrance Day.

I remember thinking that a sword is an awkward thing in a pew, both theologically and practically - they get in the way endlessly. Getting into the pew without tripping is awkward, getting out is awkward, standing and sitting are awkward, and everything involves a lot of clanking. I don't think we attempted kneeling.

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Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

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quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
I think, without looking, that the Prince of Wales was married with his sword.

It appears you are correct.

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Oscar the Grouch

Adopted Cascadian
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There's certainly a church in Rawalpindi, Pakistan, which dates from the Victorian era and has notches in the pews for the easy positioning of rifles. A regiment would march into the church (fully equipped), have a service and then march straight off to the North West Frontier.

I have also heard tell that other military churches in the UK have similar features. Next time I'm near the Garrison Church in Aldershot, I'll try and have a look.

So in some circumstances, bringing weapons into churches is not completely infra dig. We're just starting to plan for the Remembrance Sunday service (this year actually falling on 11/11). If someone from one of the armed forces wanted to bring a ceremonial sword into the church, I'm really not sure what my answer would be.

I would, of course, point out the practical problems. But if the person still insisted..... hmmmm.

We've had a few weddings in recent years where one of the couple has been in the armed forces. In one situation, the groom was in full dress uniform, but thankfully he didn't mention swords. Come to think of it, my wife's cousin got married years ago to someone in the Fleet Air Arm. I can remember his comrades making an arch with their swords outside the church afterwards. But I can't remember if they had their swords INSIDE the church. Now where did all those old photos go......

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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Triple Tiara

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# 9556

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quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
I think, without looking, that the Prince of Wales was married with his sword.

It appears you are correct.
Except that picture shows him leaving Church, not in it. Sorry to be pedantic [Hot and Hormonal]

However, this picture shows all we need to know: Prince Charles is clutching the top of his sword, and both Princes Philip and Andrew are clearly wearing theirs.

And while Prince William did not wear a sword at his wedding, his gradfather and father did sport theirs.

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Vaticanchic
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# 13869

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Yes, perhaps because it's easier to wear a Naval sword in church, as they're worn slung loose & not hooked up as are Army swords.

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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"

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Triple Tiara

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Except that at Prince William and Catherine's wedding the Duke of Edinburgh is not in naval uniform.

[ 27. September 2012, 18:55: Message edited by: Triple Tiara ]

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Vaticanchic
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Ah yes, can't explain that one. Probably decision of William and Harry not to bother.

The Queen's wedding was No1Cs, so no medals therefore no swords, most likely because WW2 campaign medals were still being issued gradually.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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One of the weirdest bits of quasi-liturgy I have ever witnessed was an RC benediction of the Blessed Sacrament in which the Sanctissimum was saluted with raised swords by two Knights of Columbus. Very distracting: my thoughts were like " En guarde - we shall defend Thee to the death" and "Peter, put away thy sword..."

Not sure if most shippies from the right side of the pond know what the Knights of Columbus are. I'd provide a link but I'm on my iPhone. They wear uniforms with old fashioned Admiral Nelson sort of naval hats adorned with a big plume. They carry ceremonial swords.

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Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

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Here are two photos of some K of C wearing ceremonial regalia. It looks like they are carrying a baton instead of a sword. (Not meaning to contradict you, as I have no direct experience with this organization. Perhaps the baton is a substitute for a sword if they're in church?)

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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The swords IME were displayed at the RC cathedral in Fort Worth around 1980. Definitely swords.
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Organ Builder
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I've seen the K of C at Mass with swords, plumes and capes. I doubt the swords could cut anything firmer than butter, but they are definitely swords.

I had a hard time not giggling, but I'm always tickled by costume parties.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Spiffy
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quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Here are two photos of some K of C wearing ceremonial regalia. It looks like they are carrying a baton instead of a sword.

Those would be sabers, which are a long, thin sword. Also very easy to blunt. More information on the KofC sword than you probably ever wanted to know.

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Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
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Ah. So the thing I thought was a baton was really a sabre ensconced in its scabbard. (They have little bitty busts of Columbus on the grip. Nice touch.) Thanks, Spiffy!

The final page of the document gives instructions for how to properly handle the sabre during a church service:
quote:
[...] it will occasionally be necessary for Knights of Columbus to be seated. This is particularly true in church.[...] The Sir Knight must keep control over the scabbard to prevent the scabbard from striking the seats or pews to not be distracting.
So there we have a member not of the military but of a fraternal organization wearing a ceremonial weapon in a church service.

Shifting gears only slightly, I have been wondering throughout this thread about what types of services a person would attend while wearing a sword. Military weddings and remembrance day services were mentioned upthread. To be honest, I'm with those who opine that weaponry -- even ceremonial ones -- are not appropriate in church, and yet I realize these views run up against Tradition™ (of the civil variety) in some respects. Am I correct in assuming these services do not include communion? I can't get my head around the idea of someone carrying a weapon of any kind up to the Table. I would really draw a line at that!

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Those would be sabers, which are a long, thin sword. Also very easy to blunt. More information on the KofC sword than you probably ever wanted to know.

I thought a sabre is a fairly short sword, with a wider curved blade and designed for slashing.

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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Those would be sabers, which are a long, thin sword. Also very easy to blunt. More information on the KofC sword than you probably ever wanted to know.

I thought a sabre is a fairly short sword, with a wider curved blade and designed for slashing.
That's a type of saber. Here is a photo of an attractive young man showing off the saber he used in the Olympics. Note that it is curved because he is pulling on it. Here's some Olympian women standing around holding their sabers.

If you're swinging it around with the intent to harm, then yes, there is a great difference in the fighting styles (I learned western one-and-a-half hand broadsword fighting in my misspent youth, which is a whole 'nother 18lb animal).

However, when you're just standing around with a bluntedtheoreticallystabby instrument to look pretty, these days the difference between a physical sword and a saber is whomever is naming it.

The KofC refer to their bluntedtheoreticalstabby instrument as a saber, therefore I kindly refer to it as a saber, also. US West Point has the same problem with naming bluntedtheoreticallystabby instruments.

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Ceremoniar
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I am a fourth degree Knight of Columbus. When wearing full regalia, we carry swords when serving as an honor guard at Mass or liturgical functions, including funerals and Adoration and Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament. There is nothing odd about this.

The sword is carried in its sheath when in the pew, at the shoulder when in procession or standing watch, and raised in salute to the Blessed Sacrament during the elevation or Benediction. It is also raised to a processing bishop or to the deceased in a casket as it exits the church after a funeral Mass.

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HenryT

Canadian Anglican
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Some years ago, one member of our Canadian Anglican congregation was an Ontario Provincial Police member. If he was going on duty right after church, he was wearing his bulletproof vest and his firearm was on his belt, in church. I don't recall anyone making a fuss.

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Ceremoniar
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# 13596

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quote:
Originally posted by HenryT:
Some years ago, one member of our Canadian Anglican congregation was an Ontario Provincial Police member. If he was going on duty right after church, he was wearing his bulletproof vest and his firearm was on his belt, in church. I don't recall anyone making a fuss.

Agreed. I think such fusses are often knee-jerk reactions.
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Vaticanchic
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# 13869

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Yes. I understand the knee-jerk reaction, but where is the line drawn? Mass is routinely celebrated among soldiers in battlefield conditions. Weapons are not necessarily offensive.

I understand Christian passivism too, but its not the last word. Rome is increasingly passivist (then again, the Vatican state is defended by other nations with armed forces, so it can afford the luxury!) but even the Pope is defended by armed guards, in church & out.

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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"

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Vaticanchic
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# 13869

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Help, I can't spell!

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moveabletype
Apprentice
# 10919

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quote:
Originally posted by HenryT:
Some years ago, one member of our Canadian Anglican congregation was an Ontario Provincial Police member. If he was going on duty right after church, he was wearing his bulletproof vest and his firearm was on his belt, in church. I don't recall anyone making a fuss.

It's a tenable argument to say that sidearms unavoidably carried by people as part of their duties can be allowed in church as a regrettable concession to man's fallen nature. Though preferably they should be discreet. The RCMP bodyguards who were seen at SMM when Adrienne Clarkson showed up would be examples - it's unfortunate in principle, but the least of the available evils.
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Walsingham Tilde
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At the (real) wedding of some Sealed Knot (English Civil War re-enactment society) members, I insisted that they all piled their swords, muskets and pikes in the tower; and also that Quakers removed their hats.
At the end of the service, the Bride and Groom went out of church through an arch of musketeers, who fired goose feathers: most effective.
The musketeers were also useful in keeping the Ranters away. I could do with them every Sunday.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Walsingham Tilde:
At the (real) wedding of some Sealed Knot (English Civil War re-enactment society) members, I insisted that they all piled their swords, muskets and pikes in the tower; and also that Quakers removed their hats.
At the end of the service, the Bride and Groom went out of church through an arch of musketeers, who fired goose feathers: most effective.
The musketeers were also useful in keeping the Ranters away. I could do with them every Sunday.

Tangent Alert
What form did it take. I don't think the 1604 book form of marriage would still be valid. The Directory definitely would not be. 1662 would be the nearest, but that is too late for the Civil War. And which side were the couple on? If they were Puritans, they should have resolutely refused to use a ring.

I hope they sang Sternhold and Hopkins's version of Psalm 128, unaccompanied and very slowly.

"Like fruitful vines, on thy house side
so doth thy wife spring out:
Thy children stand like olive plants
thy table round about."

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
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Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Perhaps a CoS or Presbyterian shipmate could clarify for us if a piper's skean dhu is removed during divine service.
My husband has one of the increasingly popular "skean dhus" which has the standard decorative hilt but a plastic blade. It looks like a proper skean dhu while in the sock, but isn't. He's worn it in church. In my church, I'm sure no-one ever queries whether a skean dhu worn in church is real or not.

My husband was usher at a wedding where the bride exited the church through a guard of honour of men holding broadswords. Husband had his broadsword next to him in church throughout the ceremony.

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