|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: What makes for a good early-morning liturgy?
|
Try
Shipmate
# 4951
|
Posted
Lately, I have stopped attending the 10:30 principal Eucharist at my parish. Instead I have been attending the 8:00 am Rite I (traditional language) said service. Partially, this is because I felt that I couldn't handle a "big" service, partially because I wanted more classically Anglican language, and partially because I was working 3rd shift and had been getting up at 8:30 pm and going to sleep at around 10am on weekdays.
Anyway, I would define good liturgy at a late service in terms of high attendance, good music, good preaching, enthusiastic congregational singing, and ceremonial that is correct without being stuffy. However, in most Episcopal and other Anglican parishes the early service lacks singing by design. In all denominations the early service is intentionally smaller and simpler then the late service, and therefore more intimate. So measuring the liturgy by the music and the size of the congregation are out.
However, I do think that there is a qualitative difference between a good and a mediocre early-morning liturgy. I'm just not sure how I would describe the difference. When I leave a late service thinking "wow, that sucked" or "I was in heaven", I can usually think of why. The same is not true of early services. So I am going to ask you all what you think the elements that make for a good early morning or other small and simple liturgy are.
PS. One thought that occurred to me is that there needs to be a feeling of intimacy in the congregation.
--------------------
“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
It might be easier to explain what a bad early morning liturgy is and consider the exact opposite.
1) The service is rushed and the presider/assistants look bored or tired.
There is nothing worse than feeling that the service that you attend is not valued by the clergy or the congregation. It comes when the presider says the liturgy in a rush or the sanctuary party yawns or looks at the bulletin rather than paying attention.
2) Pretending that a longer service = better. In my experience, the majority of people who regularly attend an early morning service prefer a short service. Trying to make it longer by preaching longer homilies or writing longer prayers is not addressing the fact that some people prefer a brief low mass to start the day.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Pretending that a longer service = better. In my experience, the majority of people who regularly attend an early morning service prefer a short service. Trying to make it longer by preaching longer homilies or writing longer prayers is not addressing the fact that some people prefer a brief low mass to start the day.
Yes! Same thing with Saturday night.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
|
Posted
Yes!
--------------------
sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Try
Shipmate
# 4951
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Pretending that a longer service = better. In my experience, the majority of people who regularly attend an early morning service prefer a short service. Trying to make it longer by preaching longer homilies or writing longer prayers is not addressing the fact that some people prefer a brief low mass to start the day.
Yes! Same thing with Saturday night.
I'd actually disagree there, at least sometimes. The Saturday and Sunday evening Eucharist is IME as likely to be a service with contemporary music as it is to be a said service. If the service is intended to be "guitar instead of organ" then it SHOULD bloody well take as long, and be as much of a production, as the 10:30Am high celebration. Otherwise you're shortchanging the people who prefer more modern music, and if you do that it would be better not to offer a folk Mass at all.
--------------------
“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
Yikes, no! Time of day has nothing to do with music preferences in worship, although many often attempt to make it so, and many "in charge" try to schedule the contemporary service far away from when they themselves are at church, on Sunday morning [knee-jerk reaction].
If you truly have a contemporary music crowd and a contemporary music liturgy on Saturday night, then I will agree with you about not shortchanging them, but now we have danced back to the OP in a way: Is the offering of a shorter early service [or shorter evening service] really shortchanging the worshippers?
I suppose that a "good" early-morning liturgy is one that doesn't make worshippers feel shortchanged when they choose to attend that instead of the later liturgy.
For me, I would need the same liturgical order as later, but I am willing to have most of it spoken instead of sung. I would also need hymns, but I know many would disagree with me. I will gladly take a shorter sermon, and the elimination of the extra factors that unnecessarily drag out a service: special music, chanted Psalm, announcements, children's sermon.
[ 23. September 2012, 20:13: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
A good alarm clock?
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
|
Posted
In the parish in which I grew up there were four servies every Sunday: 7am Holy Communion, 8am Sung Eucharist; 10am Choral Euchaist on two Sundays and Choral Mattins on 2 Sundays per month; and evening service (either Evening Prayer or Evensong).
The main difference between the 7am and 8am service was that there were no hymns at 7am, the sermon was a little shorter (not much), and there were noi sung responses etc. This service was nearly always the least attended, but it did have a much more quiet, meditative feel about it. Mind you, those of us who were opart of the serving team felt we had drawn the short straw when rostered on for 7 - which teenager likes to be out on Saturday night and then have to be at church for 6.30am to set-up?
The 8am service was much more popular, in terms of attendees. It had the usual 4 hymns, the sermon was the 'full monty', we formally processed in and out. Afterwards there was a light breakfast for all who wanted to stay, especially good for those of us who taught Sunday school at 10am.
Once I was in the counrty and travelling around centres to take services, the meditative, personal, intimate services became very much appreciated, both of Sunday's and also during the week.
--------------------
Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
I find that early morning services tend to spare us individual clerics' and choirmasters' quirks and experiments. For a visitor, there is the added comfort that we find a by-the-book standard rite rather than a local use.
As the homily tends to be much briefer, if it happens at all, there seems to be more focus and conciseness. YMMV but there seems to be less of the church-as-social-event flavour than one finds at the principal service and this traveller finds the welcome warmer than at the sometimes more flamboyant main service.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
We can thank God that 7 or 8 AM is too early for ministers to think up liturgical innovations ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
What makes for a good early-morning liturgy? Someone other than me doing it. I don't really care what happens before 10.30 as long as I don't have to be there.
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Yikes, no! Time of day has nothing to do with music preferences in worship,
Yes it has! Who on earth wants lots of loud or jolly music of any kind before they are really awake? And guitary folky worship-band-lite music workd better in the evening than the morning.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
Keep it simple, keep it by the book, and certainly don't waffle on - people might have things to do. Around here, probably farming. I don't early-morning people tend to want too much elaboration!
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Try
Shipmate
# 4951
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I find that early morning services tend to spare us individual clerics' and choirmasters' quirks and experiments. For a visitor, there is the added comfort that we find a by-the-book standard rite rather than a local use.
As the homily tends to be much briefer, if it happens at all, there seems to be more focus and conciseness. YMMV but there seems to be less of the church-as-social-event flavour than one finds at the principal service and this traveller finds the welcome warmer than at the sometimes more flamboyant main service.
Interestingly, before my parish's current rector there was no homily or sermon at the 8AM service. Our current rector added one because she feels that the Liturgy is not truly complete if the word is not both read and expounded. She preaches the same sermon (10 minutes or so) at both services. I must say that I would not regularly attend a Sunday service without preaching.
--------------------
“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
|
Posted
I have a wonderful hazy memory of walking to my suburban church as a boy in the seventies in stillness and sunshine to be greeted by an 8am that alternated between BCP and Alternative Service booklets. No Sermon but a 1 minute address, and hymns on the first sunday of every month. Somehow it felt just right.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Try:
So I am going to ask you all what you think the elements that make for a good early morning ... liturgy are.
- By.The.Book. Just read it out. No faffing about with the latest Bright Thought.
- Concise preaching. Word and Sacrament.
- Crisp, consistent action. No opportunity for wondering how the celebrant is going to prepare the altar this morning. No uncertainty about how the collection will be gathered in.
- Start on time. Exactly.
- End on time. This, of course, is best done by attending to points 1, 2, 3, and 4. No need for a time-keeping device.
- Pray the full Office just before the mass. This give more for those who want it. It also makes it more likely the celebrant will be running on all cylinders by the time he starts the mass.
- Intimate does not mean chummy. Small usually does intimacy's work for you. There is no need to lard on false bonhomie at seven- or eight-effing-o'clock of a Sunday morning.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
|
Posted
I have inherited a strange set of circumstances. Once upon a time there were two church buildings, in two adjoining suburbs. Both part of the same parish, with the same priest. One had the main service of the day at 8.00am, with a catholic-leaning sensibility, sung Eucharist with hymns and a Sunday School and morning tea after. The other had a main service at 10am, charismatic leaning, said Eucharist or Morning Prayer,chorusey things, Sunday School, and a long lingering brunchy affair after. Each one had a congo of about 30. The buildings were rationalised (into the smaller of the two with a capacity of 70!). So now there are two 'main' services in the one building. This requires a church with an ASA of (now) 70 or so to produce two sets of musicians, readers, servers and so on. The 8am Eucharist has become the preserve of golden oldies, and the 10am is allegedly for families (though I refuse to call it a Family Service because that is stupid).
The result is two lifeless liturgies, both on a Sunday morning. I'm about to smother both of them with a pillow and have a 9am Sung Eucharist, and an evening service of some kind. I do feel some guilt, though, about extinguishing the early service, because I think it has merit as a concept, for the reasons outlined above.
Is a weekday early service enough?
[ 26. September 2012, 05:17: Message edited by: jugular ]
--------------------
We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Couldn't you have a monthly 8 o clock as a compromise?
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jugular:
10am is allegedly for families (though I refuse to call it a Family Service because that is stupid).
Thank you very much indeed.
That's not quite what is thought of as an 8 o'clock is it, with music and the works?
I know one mother much involved in children at the main service who goes to the 8 as well, for obvious reasons.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jugular:
One had the main service of the day at 8.00am
WHEN? On a Sunday Morning? What insane sadistic lark thought that up?
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
It strikes me that, if Saint Jugular's can only manage one music etc service of a morning, why not have that at 10.00 and a quieter one at 8.00? That way, the ones Jugular characterizes as oldies get the hour they want (and it may be the hour that they want), and the 10.00 gang get theirs.
It never hurts to ask. Hand out a questionnaire with the bulletin and put a half-hour on your annual meeting to discuss it. Parishioners may like to have a say and this could be a good way to get people to volunteer to help out (not to mention that, with an ASA of 70, there'snot a lot of room to alienate people into non-attendance or hiving off to Saint Femoral's down the road). I don't know about Saint Jugular's demographic, but evensong may work for some of the more traditional music geeks as well as students. The advantage of that service is that it does not require clergy, and readers can take them.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
Heh. I know plenty of places where an ASA of 70 would be evidence of the miraculous.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
|
Posted
I pastor one.
Maybe someday we can have a second service. I need to make sure the fire beneath them is well and truly lit first, though.
--------------------
Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
On a Sunday Morning? What insane sadistic lark thought that up?
This is Australia, in Summer the sun comes up at 5.30am and its hot at 8am.
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
It strikes me that, if Saint Jugular's can only manage one music etc service of a morning, why not have that at 10.00 and a quieter one at 8.00?
That would be my preference, all other things being equal. However, there are historical jealousies and suspicions between the two congregations. Any attempt to 'downgrade' a liturgy would enhance the paranoia. Also, there is a significant group agitating for an evening service. Also, the musical strength is at the 8am service not the 10am. Also, the 8am crowd think the liturgy is too early and the 10am crowd think it is too late, but neither can move without overlapping with the other.
It's a perfect storm of needs and expectations! Such fun!
--------------------
We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jugular:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
On a Sunday Morning? What insane sadistic lark thought that up?
This is Australia, in Summer the sun comes up at 5.30am and its hot at 8am.
All the more reason to stay firmly in your bedroom for as long as possible with windows firmly closed to keep the cool night air in and curtains closed to keep the nasty sunlight out.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
|
Posted
In my parish there's some discussion going on about the future of our 8:00 service. We're also in transition, starting to look for a new rector. Our 8:00 is a spoken service, Rite I, with the 10:00 being Rite II with music.
Attendance at the 8:00 has been declining and is now in the single digits sometimes. There's at least one person I know who prefers not to have music, but some folks attend the 8:00 because of work schedules that conflict with the later service.
I've found worship with 10 people spread out in a church that seats 200 to be dreadful, but worship with 10 people in a more intimate setting can be wonderful. This apparently hasn't been the feeling of our 8:00 regulars, though, because there was resistance to moving this service to the chapel. I'm curious whether other churches have had similar experiences.
Also--in Hawaii having the main service earlier is pretty common due to the weather! I visited one church on Maui where we showed up at 10:00 and found it was a spoken service with just a few attending! The priest (who was wearing an alb, stole, flip-flops and a lei) asked for volunteers to read the lessons. I read one even though I was a visitor.
Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
I've found worship with 10 people spread out in a church that seats 200 to be dreadful, but worship with 10 people in a more intimate setting can be wonderful. This apparently hasn't been the feeling of our 8:00 regulars, though, because there was resistance to moving this service to the chapel. I'm curious whether other churches have had similar experiences.
I have worshipped several times in an Episcopal church where those gathered at the 8AM moved to the chancel at the sharing of peace and sort of encircled the altar. I thought it was silly to gather up front the first time, but it really did make a lot of sense.
Their chancel was so big that they could have set up chairs in front of the altar and made it a "chapel" of sorts, using it for the entire liturgy. As the nave only contained chairs--no pews--it wouldn't have looked hokey. Put a simple lectern next to the altar, and voilà, you have a chapel inside the actual nave.
The actual nave is very important to people, and many have long-term familial connections with the church. Chapels typically do not have the same emotional ties.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
From the Guardian which some might find a slight antidote to boredom.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
From the Guardian which some might find a slight antidote to boredom.
Jengie
Sorry, I seem to be having browser problems, I will transfer the stuff above to the right thread.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
I like to keep the early service 'functional' - so it is pretty much staright by the book with a seven minute homily. Unlike the 10.30am service which fluctuates horribly, the 9am has the merit of being very consistent at about a dozen folks.
PD
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
I was out of town yesterday and had to be somewhere at 9am, so I popped into the local Episcopal 8am Rite I, crossing my fingers that it wouldn't be dragged out.
All went well until the end of the Second Reading, when all prayed together a "Sequence," the Benedictus canticle from Morning Prayer. This was followed by a very unnecessarily long 15-minute sermon. Then a very slow recitation of the Creed, with ample breathing room between each line, and then we made intercession for everybody. Yes, Shipmates, we probably prayed for each and every one of you by name, your dioceses, your bishops, and your parishes. We also prayed through the full traditional intercessory BCP prayer.
After the peace, I had to leave, dejected, as time was not on my side.
It was all very unnecessarily drawn-out for a spoken, 8am, Rite I liturgy. I do wish I could have stayed to the end to see how it all played out. The deacon was the celebrant, nary a priest in sight, so I wanted to see how gracefully communion was handled. Not being able to receive Holy Communion, ![[Frown]](frown.gif) , but I can't really hold the church responsible for my timing issues.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Not an early-morning liturgy, and not a typical parish one either, but our weekend retreat finished with a very contemplative eucharist with plenty of silence and two hymns, taking just half an hour. Can be done!
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Not an early-morning liturgy, and not a typical parish one either, but our weekend retreat finished with a very contemplative eucharist with plenty of silence and two hymns, taking just half an hour. Can be done!
There is a televised RC Mass every Sunday morning with three hymns, chanted Alleluia, and chanted Psalm. They only have 30 minutes, and they always finish.
They do cheat on one point: they do not use the full Gloria, but only through "earth." How they justify this, I have no idea. Nothing else in the Mass is eliminated, although they use the short version of everything and sing at a pretty good clip. The homily is typically about five minutes, and they do not edit the distribution of communion, although the attendance is usually only about 20-30 people.
[ 08. October 2012, 17:03: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
Is that the WNDU one? I still haven't made it to a filming of one of those. Two things that drastically shorten a Mass like that: it takes nowhere near as long to prepare the altar as it does to take up a collection; distribution of communion.
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Is that the WNDU one? I still haven't made it to a filming of one of those. Two things that drastically shorten a Mass like that: it takes nowhere near as long to prepare the altar as it does to take up a collection; distribution of communion.
It is the Sunday Mass at Mercy Home on WCIU Channel 26 in Chicago. I usually have it on in the background on Sunday morn.
I don't think they take a collection, but the gifts are presented and the full offertory prayers and solemn hand-washing are done, being heard slightly or not-so-slightly over light piano improvisation. I'd say perhaps 30 seconds for the offertory, and perhaps two minutes to distribute communion, with a hymn sung during. The priests who celebrate regularly are solid Spirit of V2 priests, so needless to say there is plenty of ad libbing that makes things unnecessarily longer.*
On Christmas Day and Easter Day, the archbishop always presides, and they have a full hour, although it takes only about 40-45 minutes, the rest being filled with special music.
I'm not sure I can even receive the ND masses anymore via televised broadcast, although I can probably see them online if I really wanted to make the effort. They were certainly among the most well-done regular Sunday RC masses I have ever seen, with good congregational participation.
*e.g. We gather together, as we always gather, in the house of the Lord, worshipping together and always offering our prayers and praises In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
I must correct my Gloria statement earlier...in the new text they finish with "people of good will."
Ah, how I miss the old missal.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
